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Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Topic: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back? (Read 9921 times)
RichardNixon
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Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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on:
January 01, 2006, 10:50:39 AM »
New year, new thread.
I think...yes.
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mikegiuliana
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #1 on:
January 01, 2006, 10:59:00 AM »
I really think no... I do believe something has to happen this year regardless.. I don't think you will be hearing the members saying oh cd will come out in 07, that shit is old already and even they couldn't lie that bad
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shaun
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #2 on:
January 01, 2006, 11:31:11 AM »
Slash says YES!
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SLCPUNK
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #3 on:
January 01, 2006, 12:10:56 PM »
I believe so, yes.
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Evolution
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #4 on:
January 01, 2006, 12:14:02 PM »
I've posted in a thread like this the last two years
Och why not, yes i do think so
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Drew
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #5 on:
January 01, 2006, 12:51:33 PM »
Quote from: Evolution on January 01, 2006, 12:14:02 PM
I've posted in a thread like this the last two years
Och why not, yes i do think so
The threads should be just combined with the others and just change the year date in the thread title.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #6 on:
January 01, 2006, 12:53:02 PM »
this is probably the make or break year
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #7 on:
January 01, 2006, 01:12:26 PM »
Quote from: younggunner on January 01, 2006, 12:53:02 PM
this is probably the make or break year
At this point it?s pretty arbitrary, what does it matter if it?s ?06 or ?09?
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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January 01, 2006, 01:45:56 PM »
Yes.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #9 on:
January 01, 2006, 01:46:02 PM »
The more years that passes since the last Axl appearance, the closer we ge to the next one. ?
/jarmo
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #10 on:
January 01, 2006, 03:17:57 PM »
Quote from: jarmo on January 01, 2006, 01:46:02 PM
The more years that passes since the last Axl appearance, the closer we ge to the next one.
/jarmo
spot on mate. spot on.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #11 on:
January 01, 2006, 03:22:39 PM »
I'm gonna say yes, and hope to God that we aren't having this same convo in a years time.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #12 on:
January 01, 2006, 03:23:57 PM »
Quote from: mikegiuliana on January 01, 2006, 10:59:00 AM
I really think no... I do believe something has to happen this year regardless.. I don't think you will be hearing the members saying oh cd will come out in 07, that shit is old already and even they couldn't lie that bad
yeah but we've said the same thing since 03 and its been old but the bandmembers seem to repeat the same line just different year stuff.
I stay optimistic.
I guess 06 is as good a year.
I think the Greatest hits volume 2 being shelved proves CD is coming out in 06.
remember they supposedly gave Axl an Ultimatum.
Release CD or we are releasing GH?
didnt they delay GH once??? cant remember but GH version 2 not being released is a great sign in my opinion.
if GH2 is released next summer, we will know Axl didnt come through with CD like he was suppose to.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #13 on:
January 01, 2006, 03:48:14 PM »
i really don't know.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #14 on:
January 01, 2006, 05:18:52 PM »
yes
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #15 on:
January 01, 2006, 05:31:34 PM »
I think we will see something. Good luck to the band.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #16 on:
January 01, 2006, 05:46:45 PM »
I wish it would come out this year,but that doesn't mean it will happen,so I'm not going to make a guess to when CD will come out.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #17 on:
January 01, 2006, 05:50:48 PM »
To me, 2006 holds the same amount of positivity in regards to a release as '02, '03, '04, and now '05 held.
If anything has been made more than clear by Axl over the past several years, its that both the conception and hopefully, innevitable completion of this record is on a timeline which can not be predicted or abided by. He has a certain notion or visualization in his mind of what this record will both look and sound like, and if all objectives are not fulfilled, the record remains far from complete in Axl's eyes.
We just have to hope that the delays and relentless circumstances to which this album hasnt been released yet are all ironed out very early on into this year, and heres to hoping Axl threw a dart at '06 and scored a bullseye
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #18 on:
January 01, 2006, 05:52:39 PM »
Quote
Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
I wouldn't bet money on it.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #19 on:
January 01, 2006, 06:04:31 PM »
Yeh I do believe 2006 is the year of Mr. Rose
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #20 on:
January 01, 2006, 06:21:53 PM »
i really got a positive feeling about it... I think we will hear something new from GNR..
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #21 on:
January 01, 2006, 06:29:40 PM »
I surely hope so.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #22 on:
January 01, 2006, 06:31:37 PM »
I'm thinking lots of positive thoughts about this year for GNR!
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #23 on:
January 01, 2006, 09:25:44 PM »
I agree. Something will happen this year with GNR. Even if CD gets delayed, we could still get a song on a soundtrack, an EP, hits album with a new song,etc. Anything is better than nothing.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #24 on:
January 01, 2006, 09:43:40 PM »
I think Axl will at least make
one
public apperence.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #25 on:
January 02, 2006, 12:31:05 AM »
Quote
Release CD or we are releasing GH?
didnt they delay GH once??? cant remember but GH version 2 not being released is a great sign in my opinion.
if GH2 is released next summer, we will know Axl didnt come through with CD like he was suppose to
I pretty much agree with this-the fact is, there was a GH package scheduled to come out if the label didnt get anything new from Axl. It was delayed then fell off the face of the earth-i have to guess axl came to some understanding with interscope on getting the album put out-and interscope arent foolish, im sure they are dangling that little sword over axl and will continue to do so right up until the album is on the shelves.
So combine the preemptive death of GH2 with the DaVinci Code soundtrack thing, which was never denied by Sanctuary, and the fact Guns appear to be looking into booking European dates for the summer, plus Slash's comments, and I'd say there's reason to think Axl will make his last run at this thing pretty damn soon.
Now if we get a 'Hey, it's Tommy and im done with Axl" letter sometime in the next few months, and that pretty much kills it-but things seem to be happening, and im more optimistic than i was for the year just past.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #26 on:
January 02, 2006, 12:50:44 AM »
Quote from: NickNastyIII: The Return on January 02, 2006, 12:31:05 AM
Quote
Release CD or we are releasing GH?
didnt they delay GH once??? cant remember but GH version 2 not being released is a great sign in my opinion.
if GH2 is released next summer, we will know Axl didnt come through with CD like he was suppose to
I pretty much agree with this-the fact is, there was a GH package? scheduled to come out if the label didnt get anything new from Axl. It was delayed then fell off the face of the earth-i have to guess axl came to some understanding with interscope on getting the album put out-and interscope arent foolish, im sure they are dangling that little sword over axl and will continue to do so right up until the album is on the shelves.
? ?So combine the preemptive death of GH2 with the DaVinci Code soundtrack thing, which was never denied by Sanctuary, and the fact Guns appear to be looking into booking European dates for the summer, plus Slash's comments, and I'd say there's reason to think Axl will make his last run at this thing pretty damn soon.
? Now if we get a 'Hey, it's Tommy and im done with Axl" letter sometime in the next few months, and that pretty much kills it-but things seem to be happening, and im more optimistic than i was for the year just past.
Good post.
I agree with most of it, except for the "fact Guns are looking into booking European dates" part.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #27 on:
January 02, 2006, 12:53:30 AM »
most certainly.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #28 on:
January 02, 2006, 06:35:43 AM »
Although it's true that most of us have become numb with waiting, I'm sure it would feel really, really good if so.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #29 on:
January 02, 2006, 06:56:57 AM »
YES It will be the year of AXL ROSE, GUNS N ROSES and CHINESE DEMOCRACY.
See the lyrics of the song called "14 Years"
But it's been
14 years of silence
It's been
14 years of pain
It's been
14 years that are gone forever
And I'll never have again
Your stupid girlfriends tell you
That I'm to blame
Well they're all used-up has-beens
Out of the game
This time I'll have the last word
If you count from the release of TSI in 1993 until now 2006, It's been 14 years.
I trully believe CD will be release. It's just a question of "Which month will Axl release the CD?"
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #30 on:
January 02, 2006, 07:16:43 AM »
I think we will hear something new...
This could be GH2(New track), CD or a soundtrack...
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #31 on:
January 02, 2006, 10:59:30 AM »
I guess we will see Chinise Democracy, but not Axl.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #32 on:
January 02, 2006, 11:05:23 AM »
Quote from: D0badog on January 01, 2006, 11:31:11 AM
Slash says YES!?
Slash is just like you, me, and everyone else un-related to the project. He hasn't the slightest idea.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #33 on:
January 02, 2006, 11:05:50 AM »
Every year someone says that it's Axl's last chance and this year will be no different. However, the truth is that if Axl wants to release an album then he can do it in 2040 if he wants and I'll still buy it. I do think that the chances of seeing Axl tour behind the album decrease as each year passes without a release but at the moment I'd settle for anything.
However, having said that 2006 appears to me to have a lot of similarities with 2004. In 2004, we had the prospect of a performance at Rock in Rio and a possible Greatest Hits. In 2006 we have the prospect of a performance at Rock in Rio and a possible Greatest Hits. We all know how 2004 panned out with Geffen releasing the GH because Axl wasn't gonna produce CD and then he cancelled Rio. Surely Mr. Rose won't let a similar debacle take place in 2006? Surely he'll play Rio and release an album of new material rather than a half hearted Best Of or Greatest Hits? Surely 2006 is the year.
I guess we'll have to wait and see how 2006 pans out, I never would have predicted what happened in 2004 but tell me I'm not the only one with a sense of deja vu about Rio, the rumours surrounding the album and the proposed GH2, am I?
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #34 on:
January 02, 2006, 11:19:20 AM »
Quote from: gigger on January 02, 2006, 11:05:50 AM
Every year someone says that it's Axl's last chance and this year will be no different. However, the truth is that if Axl wants to release an album then he can do it in 2040 if he wants and I'll still buy it. I do think that the chances of seeing Axl tour behind the album decrease as each year passes without a release but at the moment I'd settle for anything.
However, having said that 2006 appears to me to have a lot of similarities with 2004. In 2004, we had the prospect of a performance at Rock in Rio and a possible Greatest Hits. In 2006 we have the prospect of a performance at Rock in Rio and a possible Greatest Hits. We all know how 2004 panned out with Geffen releasing the GH because Axl wasn't gonna produce CD and then he cancelled Rio. Surely Mr. Rose won't let a similar debacle take place in 2006? Surely he'll play Rio and release an album of new material rather than a half hearted Best Of or Greatest Hits? Surely 2006 is the year.
I guess we'll have to wait and see how 2006 pans out, I never would have predicted what happened in 2004 but tell me I'm not the only one with a sense of deja vu about Rio, the rumours surrounding the album and the proposed GH2, am I?
Yeah, you're right. There are definitely similarities to 2004 and 2006. So according to this logic, if he doesnt do Rio, we can write the rest of the year off.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #35 on:
January 02, 2006, 11:23:34 AM »
Quote from: jameslofton29 on January 02, 2006, 11:19:20 AM
Quote from: gigger on January 02, 2006, 11:05:50 AM
Every year someone says that it's Axl's last chance and this year will be no different. However, the truth is that if Axl wants to release an album then he can do it in 2040 if he wants and I'll still buy it. I do think that the chances of seeing Axl tour behind the album decrease as each year passes without a release but at the moment I'd settle for anything.
However, having said that 2006 appears to me to have a lot of similarities with 2004. In 2004, we had the prospect of a performance at Rock in Rio and a possible Greatest Hits. In 2006 we have the prospect of a performance at Rock in Rio and a possible Greatest Hits. We all know how 2004 panned out with Geffen releasing the GH because Axl wasn't gonna produce CD and then he cancelled Rio. Surely Mr. Rose won't let a similar debacle take place in 2006? Surely he'll play Rio and release an album of new material rather than a half hearted Best Of or Greatest Hits? Surely 2006 is the year.
I guess we'll have to wait and see how 2006 pans out, I never would have predicted what happened in 2004 but tell me I'm not the only one with a sense of deja vu about Rio, the rumours surrounding the album and the proposed GH2, am I?
Yeah, you're right. There are definitely similarities to 2004 and 2006. So according to this logic, if he doesnt do Rio, we can write the rest of the year off.
Possibly. If they release GH2 at some point in the first half of 2006 then it's pretty much definite that we aren't getting CD any time soon.
Let's hope they announce Rio and a release date (probably in February or March, festivals tend to like to announce at least 3 months in advance who is headlining) and we don't hear of the GH2 again. That's the best possible situation for me.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #36 on:
January 02, 2006, 12:22:49 PM »
Axl Rose is the new Howard Hughes. I guess we won't 'see' him for at least another three years. Or the album for that matter.
Funny how someone earlier in the thread said 2006 would be the "make or break" year - I thought the exact same thing about 2002. This is ridiculous.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #37 on:
January 02, 2006, 12:25:40 PM »
Quote
We all know how 2004 panned out with Geffen releasing the GH because Axl wasn't gonna produce CD and then he cancelled Rio. Surely Mr. Rose won't let a similar debacle take place in 2006? Surely he'll play Rio and release an album of new material rather than a half hearted Best Of or Greatest Hits? Surely 2006 is the year.
I guess we'll have to wait and see how 2006 pans out, I never would have predicted what happened in 2004 but tell me I'm not the only one with a sense of deja vu about Rio, the rumours surrounding the album and the proposed GH2, am I?
It looks alot like 2004, but I'd be careful when saying Axl wouldn't let it a similar debacle happen again-however much i love the guy as an entertainer, his behavior in regards to conducting his business has been far from rational-i think no-showing Philly (even if it was over a beef with the promoter) was incredibly stupid from a business standpoint-he shot his credibility as a touring entity in North America! I know-not related to the topic except to illustrate that Axl has let debacles happen in the past, against all business common-sense.
However, it's Interesting to note that this time, gnr appear to be waiting to confirm Rio (if it really is the case they are playing it) rather than jump out as one of the first acts to announce like they did in late 2003-that at least speaks to me as a smarter business decision-in case anything unforseen happens between now and june.
«
Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 12:27:19 PM by NickNastyIII: The Return
»
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #38 on:
January 02, 2006, 12:28:08 PM »
Quote from: Kayoss on January 02, 2006, 11:05:23 AM
Quote from: D0badog on January 01, 2006, 11:31:11 AM
Slash says YES!
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #39 on:
January 02, 2006, 12:38:48 PM »
Quote from: highend88 on January 02, 2006, 06:56:57 AM
YES It will be the year of AXL ROSE, GUNS N ROSES and CHINESE DEMOCRACY.
See the lyrics of the song called "14 Years"
But it's been
14 years of silence
It's been
14 years of pain
It's been
14 years that are gone forever
And I'll never have again
Your stupid girlfriends tell you
That I'm to blame
Well they're all used-up has-beens
Out of the game
This time I'll have the last word
If you count from the release of TSI in 1993 until now 2006, It's been 14 years.
I trully believe CD will be release. It's just a question of "Which month will Axl release the CD?"
well. if you looked at your math better, you'd see that that would be 13 years. 2006-1993=13
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #40 on:
January 02, 2006, 04:09:43 PM »
Quote from: misterbrownstone on January 02, 2006, 12:38:48 PM
Quote from: highend88 on January 02, 2006, 06:56:57 AM
YES It will be the year of AXL ROSE, GUNS N ROSES and CHINESE DEMOCRACY.
See the lyrics of the song called "14 Years"
But it's been
14 years of silence
It's been
14 years of pain
It's been
14 years that are gone forever
And I'll never have again
Your stupid girlfriends tell you
That I'm to blame
Well they're all used-up has-beens
Out of the game
This time I'll have the last word
If you count from the release of TSI in 1993 until now 2006, It's been 14 years.
I trully believe CD will be release. It's just a question of "Which month will Axl release the CD?"
well.? if you looked at your math better, you'd see that that would be 13 years.? 2006-1993=13?
Then you minus that with songs on UYI, adding the number of songs on Contraband, removing the number of songs on AFD, adding Axl's shoe size and finally adding Slash hair lenght, that just might be the year of Axl, huh?
It really doesn't matter if it's 2006 or 2007, did it matter if it was 2002 or 2005?
But all I got is precious time
and we just have to wait.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #41 on:
January 02, 2006, 04:15:46 PM »
For the 3rd year in the row, I think yes
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #42 on:
January 02, 2006, 04:43:26 PM »
Oh for sure!! Gotta to stay positive!! 06 - the year of Guns n Roses!! Mike
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #43 on:
January 02, 2006, 04:47:56 PM »
2006, the year for Guns N' Roses? I wouldn't count on that.
But I say yes, just to be positive.
Just joking.
I think 2006 finally will be the year, I can almost promise that.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #44 on:
January 02, 2006, 06:59:40 PM »
every single GN'R album has been released on an odd year, and Axl's all into that numerology astrology stuff and what not, so i dunno
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #45 on:
January 02, 2006, 09:26:51 PM »
I think some of YOU guys are behaving more like "astrologists."
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #46 on:
January 02, 2006, 10:47:09 PM »
Quote
well.? if you looked at your math better, you'd see that that would be 13 years.? 2006-1993=13?
Quote
I said count from including 1993, don't you understand simple english?
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #47 on:
January 03, 2006, 12:05:26 AM »
That does not make sense.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #48 on:
January 03, 2006, 12:52:31 AM »
2006 will either be the beginning of the end. I really dont think if CD is released by the end of the year any of them will stick around.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #49 on:
January 03, 2006, 01:14:19 AM »
Read through all the posts in the topic, on topic, I say yes it wil happen and yes this is the yr
Off topic, I think alot of you read to much into stuff, but I give credit to those that keep GNR alive, cause bottom line its teh younger generation that ulitmately will decide the fate of this band. Unlike myself and mike igliuana, and oldtimers that have been GNR fans from jumpstreet, with that said, I do believe that more than ever is the best time for the band GNR to re-emerge. HAving an inkling of what each individual brings to the table by seeing them live doin thier own thing, only reinforces my belief that when CD is released .....GNR will have gone where no other band has before, and axl said it best after the MTV show, if you didnt hear it I suggest lookin it up.
PEACE
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #50 on:
January 03, 2006, 07:54:10 AM »
This will be the year.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #51 on:
January 03, 2006, 08:05:39 AM »
Same thing, every year.
For the past 10 years I've been expecting a new GNR album...and each and every year, I've remained positive.
Would this be the year? Yes, this is how I feel..
I ain't quite what you'd call an old soul
Still wet behind the ears
I been around this track a couple o' times
But now the dust is startin' to clear
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #52 on:
January 03, 2006, 08:59:32 AM »
Bullshit and contemplation
Gossip's their trade
If they knew half the real truth
What would they say
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #53 on:
January 04, 2006, 02:46:58 PM »
Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
Yes
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #54 on:
January 04, 2006, 03:10:11 PM »
It's just a matter of time people.
I haven't been round long (only since about summer of '04) lurking on these forums but I've never been so confident in those 18 months that CD is close.
I just hope it lives up to all expectations for all those people who have been waiting since 1991 for new material.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #55 on:
January 05, 2006, 09:42:23 AM »
I agree with most people around here,
2006 feels different in a strange way, guess that's just me beeing an optimist but hey!
who isn't when int omes to a new release.
Go Axl, hope to something new soon.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #56 on:
January 05, 2006, 10:45:41 AM »
Oh Geez I feel like if I don't say something soon I'll EXPLODE!!! AXL ! You need the money if you want to continue the same life style for the next 30 years, shit out that cd! we'll make you the money and you can buy that island. All that jumping around on stage you did in the 90's I know your fucken back and knees must be killing you at times, get back on stage, the rush of the crowd and all the enrgy will heel all your pains, LET US FREE WITH CD 2006!
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #57 on:
January 05, 2006, 02:23:57 PM »
I really thought 05 was the year. It's been too many years and too many rumors for me. I would like to be proved wrong, but I feel we are no closer today than we were in 97. I remember picking up the Rolling Stone mag in 99 and thinking "this is the year". Then the tour in 01 and 02 and thinking "this is the year". Then Mercks statement in 05 and thinking "this is the year". I guess I've become a little too hardened after all these years of rumors.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #58 on:
January 06, 2006, 07:30:00 AM »
2006 is the year of GNR.... june though id say....not march.... oh maybe august...... oh sorrry.... CD is coming!!!!!!!! and our grand kids will be the ones who hear it ,not us.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #59 on:
January 06, 2006, 07:04:13 PM »
every year i have to hope it is... the waiting has become a hobby of mine. i don't know how to give up.
that said, if it does come out, i'll be really really interested to hear what Axl has to say about what's been happening for the past three years. the tour happened, ended, bucket left... and then we fell back into silence. i can't
imagine
what's been happening.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #60 on:
January 06, 2006, 07:06:58 PM »
I still can imagine his rants! There's a lot to talk about.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #61 on:
January 06, 2006, 07:15:31 PM »
Quote from: nesquick on January 06, 2006, 07:06:58 PM
I still can imagine his rants! There's a lot to talk about.
There sure are some classic ones, aren't there.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #62 on:
January 06, 2006, 07:17:34 PM »
Other people have said the same thing, this is either the year or the end..
And I believe it is that way too.
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Re: Will 2006 finally be the year Axl comes back?
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Reply #63 on:
January 06, 2006, 07:18:12 PM »
I really hope so, but it's almost hard to belive...
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