English, Scots Welsh and and Irish Gunners

[2NaFish]

Read a report in one of the sunday scottish papers saying that one third of english people would like to dissolve the union and govern independantly of one another. Now that struck me as quite high. Obviously there's the ridiculously right-wing, bnp style people who'd take this view but that still leaves about 30% percent of the sane english population who would favour this. The other thing that interests me is that this is about the same level of support the SNP gets.

So, in closing what are the views of the english, welsh and (northern) irish gunners? or anyone else who cares to comment.

(ps Tecniqually i guess this is political so please remove it if its against the rules, but i really doubt this thread will lead to anything involving argument.)

[Izzy]

Independence is hardly likely to help anyone - English, Welsh, Irish and Scots have such a shared history - its obvious we're stronger together. I always think its sad the way Scottish people regard England, we're a family of nations and each one's culture is able to flourish. I've always been very proud of the way we've fused into a system that works - unlike the ultra corrupt and pure evil European Empire.

Saying that i can see the counter argument for Independence- i do wonder how much Wales and Scotland contribute to the English economy and how much England is effectivly subsidising the rest...

[2NaFish]

subsidizing? is that you Ken Livingstone?

Outside the pretty much agreed upon impracticalities of everything involved, just how english do you feel compared to british? union jack or st george's cross? god save the queen or god save the queen?

[Axls Locomotive]

Independence is hardly likely to help anyone - English, Welsh, Irish and Scots have such a shared history - its obvious we're stronger together. I always think its sad the way Scottish people regard England, we're a family of nations and each one's culture is able to flourish. I've always been very proud of the way we've fused into a system that works - unlike the ultra corrupt and pure evil European Empire.

Saying that i can see the counter argument for Independence- i do wonder how much Wales and Scotland contribute to the English economy and how much England is effectivly subsidising the rest...

you know...i find it amusing that you think its a one way street...i know several friends who have had abuse in england for being scottish...and i see people saying it on many forums i look at...ive seen a lot of intimidation by some english...but its really is a 2 way street...

as for subsidising the rest...im not sure thats true...you of course are referring to the barnett formula...which only refers to public spending

of course people who take that argument fail to understand wider isses...since scotland has a higher proportion of islands and rural communities it of course needs more funding to build roads etc...do you think rural communities should get less money for instance?...and that people fail to realise than the north of england contributes far less to the economy than anywhere in the UK, Scotland is second behind the south...do you know where the money goes?...london...talk about over centralisation...thats why money is so poorly distributed within the uk...

also 90% of all oil fields are in scottish waters...where does that money from all the tax go?...london to build all their follies like the millenium dome...

you also fail to realise the consequences to england of breaking from scotland...less oil means you have to pay for it...money goes north into our cities, not south to london et al...just like most taxes

just look at the recent events in the media...completely biased against scotland...and some comment were downright racist...not only that, even though we pay a license fee, theyve shut down the main scottish forums on the bbc...because they have been talking too much about the break up of the uk and that labour mp's told the bbc to limit conversations about scottish independence...so much for free speech...i must be living in China

the thing is they tell us we cant run ourselves...why do they do that?...we are more than capable since we scots run the UK...they tell us we cant be successful, yet countries of similar size like denmark get on just fine...its all bullshit because they know that oil is central to the UK economy and they dont want to part with us...scots should stop listening to others and go independent...

[Izzy]

as for subsidising the rest...im not sure thats true...you of course are referring to the barnett formula...which only refers to public spending

you also fail to realise the consequences to england of breaking from scotland...less oil means you have to pay for it...money goes north into our cities, not south to london et al...just like most taxes

Hey i said:

i do wonder how much Wales and Scotland contribute to the English economy and how much England is effectivly subsidising the rest...

I asked a question, i didnt express an opinion!

''Brothers and sisters are natural enemies just like englishman and scots, or welsman and scots or scots and other scots - damn scots ruined Scotland!''
-Groundskeeper Wily

[axl_rose_700]

the thing is they tell us we cant run ourselves...why do they do that?...we are more than capable since we scots run the UK...they tell us we cant be successful, yet countries of similar size like denmark get on just fine...its all bullshit because they know that oil is central to the UK economy and they dont want to part with us...scots should stop listening to others and go independent...

I don't think you'd last too long as a wealthy country to be honest!

of course people who take that argument fail to understand wider isses...since scotland has a higher proportion of islands and rural communities it of course needs more funding to build roads etc...do you think rural communities should get less money for instance?...and that people fail to realise than the north of england contributes far less to the economy than anywhere in the UK, Scotland is second behind the south...do you know where the money goes?...london...talk about over centralisation...thats why money is so poorly distributed within the uk...

Alot of the North contributs little apart from centres of big cities such as Leeds.

And I agree with you about London, Leeds was earmarked ?1bn for a supertram system which was scrapped (rightly so in my opinion, but thats another story) but now the money is going to London for the 2012 Olympics so it isn't only Scotland which is affected by London.

[Axls Locomotive]

I don't think you'd last too long as a wealthy country to be honest!

really?...i know youre trying to wind me up...but its not going to work...i know there is a hint of patronisation in your comment...but it's wasted on me as it doesnt affect me in the slightest...

we are more than capable of looking after our own affairs...

Hey i said:

i do wonder how much Wales and Scotland contribute to the English economy and how much England is effectivly subsidising the rest...

I asked a question, i didnt express an opinion!

''Brothers and sisters are natural enemies just like englishman and scots, or welsman and scots or scots and other scots - damn scots ruined Scotland!''
-Groundskeeper Wily

apologies...but if you want to get into a debate about what elements have affected england and scotland in a negative way...feel free...

Alot of the North contributs little apart from centres of big cities such as Leeds.

And I agree with you about London, Leeds was earmarked ?1bn for a supertram system which was scrapped (rightly so in my opinion, but thats another story) but now the money is going to London for the 2012 Olympics so it isn't only Scotland which is affected by London.

I know, im glad you see this...they pump all that money into the south east, they build the channel tunnel for themselves mostly and obviously the GDP for that region rises because of it, then those southeasterners moan about the rest of the country and how it isnt doing so well...maybe if the money was fairly distributed to parts that need it then there would be much more equality in productivity...Liverpool for instance has the highest unemployment rate in the UK...but im sure they dont get the money they need for improvements...

[axl_rose_700]

I don't think you'd last too long as a wealthy country to be honest!

really?...i know youre trying to wind me up...but its not going to work...i know there is a hint of patronisation in your comment...but it's wasted on me as it doesnt affect me in the slightest...

we are more than capable of looking after our own affairs...

You're right was just trying to wind you up, tbh I don't know enough about Scotland's independant economy to make a judgement! 

[Izzy]

Surely at this stage Scotland and Wales are so dependent on England they would require decades of intensive reconstruction before they would be in a position to go it alone?

Independence would just lead to mass migration to England

Lacking any kind of significant home grown industry do they even have enough of an economy to be considered such?

I think the home nations should be moving closer together, not further away. And while the distrubution of funds in the UK is curious at best it must be remembered London has a population greater than Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland combined - so is naturally going to get more resources.

By the way, i'm all for Northern Ireland being thrown out of the Union.

And sunk in the Atlantic.

[Evolution]

All we need is to push tourism some more 


I'm not expert on this topic but I think Scotland would fare well as an independant nation.

[Axls Locomotive]

Surely at this stage Scotland and Wales are so dependent on England they would require decades of intensive reconstruction before they would be in a position to go it alone?

decades?...you exaggerate...it didnt take long for us to adapt to the current powers of the Scottish Parliament...i doubt it would take that long for any others

Independence would just lead to mass migration to England

yea, another wind-up...is that why for many months now, Scotland has been going through a housing boom? and that its outperforming every area of the UK for the last year and is expected to continue until at least the end of this year
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/hi/news/5054523.html

Lacking any kind of significant home grown industry do they even have enough of an economy to be considered such?

over ?3Bn of investment (and counting) has currently been invested in construction along the clyde alone...it will be truly a magnificent achievement to develop all these areas where shipbuilding once was the main industry...we are doing pretty well thanks
http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/Environment/Rivers/RiverClyde/Overview/
have fun with the interactive map

thanks for the ship, guess we will have to complete it eh
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/07/14/cnswan14.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2006/07/14/ixcitytop.html

btw manufacturing is declining across all of the UK
http://www.ifm.eng.cam.ac.uk/service/cmr/04cmrautumn/economy.html
"growth" consistently below inflation

I think the home nations should be moving closer together, not further away. And while the distrubution of funds in the UK is curious at best it must be remembered London has a population greater than Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland combined - so is naturally going to get more resources.

"curious"?? open your eyes, even the North of England is poorly funded in comparison, and as the south swells, see all that investment money slowly fritter away from the north

actually the population of all 3 is nearly 10 million, London is only about 7 million...they get far more of a proportion than the rest of the country

[Izzy]

I'm not sure your getting what i'm on about

I'm all for pumping money in Scotland - damnit, i'd gladly see the south east bled dry so people would move out- maybe that way the roads would be empty every now and again and a house could be afforded by someone under 30 and school classes wouldn't be 30 people in number and you'd get to see a doctor the same year you had an illness....

60 million people in an area 4 times smaller than France - gotta redistrubute the wealth to get them spreading out - Scotlands full of empty space!

[axl_rose_700]

60 million people in an area 4 times smaller than France - gotta redistrubute the wealth to get them spreading out - Scotlands full of empty space!

yea we should knock down all those beautiful forests in the North of Scotland and move people from the SE up there?

[Evolution]

The forests are starting to go in some places already particular in the Highlands due to forestry. Very sad to see really.

[Axls Locomotive]

I'm not sure your getting what i'm on about

I'm all for pumping money in Scotland - damnit, i'd gladly see the south east bled dry so people would move out- maybe that way the roads would be empty every now and again and a house could be afforded by someone under 30 and school classes wouldn't be 30 people in number and you'd get to see a doctor the same year you had an illness....

60 million people in an area 4 times smaller than France - gotta redistrubute the wealth to get them spreading out - Scotlands full of empty space!

i know exactly what youre saying

and along with mr axl_rose_700 youre full of sarcastic jibes and trying to wind me up...its as clear as a bright sunny day...maybe you should try life as a comedian as there are only about 3 of them left in England

you mock our independence, our industry and Scotland...yet without an ounce of truth...then claim youre all for Scotland getting more money? ohhh purleaseeee

yea we should knock down all those beautiful forests in the North of Scotland and move people from the SE up there?

yea, England already knocked many of them down during the 18th and 19th centuries, 80% of Scotland used to have forested areas

[Jamie]

Well, 1/3 of English want the union disolved, 1/2 of the Northern Irish want the union disolved, or at least separation from the union, 1/1 of the free state Irish want Northern Ireland back in the Republic. And I don't really know any Scottish or Welsh people but they seem to want separation from England. Seems like it's time to separate the union. Not that it'll ever happen.

[Hellraiser Fraser]

There are 2 sides to every argument, but its totally feasible for Scotland to be independant and be succesfull, that isnt the case for either Wales or Northern Ireland...unless a united Ireland is fudged which isnt that long a shot given the way the past 10 years have evolved. England would suffer badly if Scottish oil and gas was cut off and had to be paid for with the escalating prices worldwide and the big question mark over supplies from mid east and gas from eastern europe...if scotland had priority over its own reserves it could prosper. Another thing is they have discovered this massive coal seam in Ayrshire with some ridiculous amount of coal reserves which is now being mined and trained out daily down to england to power stations in the midlands and SE.....coal is in contrast running out in wales and England. Just makes you wonder with all the energy crisis what drastic effect Scotland going solo would have on England. Then theres all the water, and wind/wave energy that Scotland could sell......pity im not in scotland to vote SNP !!

[Jessica]

Keep a shared economy and separate the rest.

It's coming, i knew it could !!! 

[2NaFish]

my making the thread was really to find out the cases for independance for the nations other than scotland. what does it mean to be english/welsh/irish and/or british.

i already know most of the scottish views on nationality and was interested by the idea of an english independence party that wasn't fronted by the BNP.

[Izzy]

I'm not sure your getting what i'm on about

I'm all for pumping money in Scotland - damnit, i'd gladly see the south east bled dry so people would move out- maybe that way the roads would be empty every now and again and a house could be afforded by someone under 30 and school classes wouldn't be 30 people in number and you'd get to see a doctor the same year you had an illness....

60 million people in an area 4 times smaller than France - gotta redistrubute the wealth to get them spreading out - Scotlands full of empty space!

i know exactly what youre saying

and along with mr axl_rose_700 youre full of sarcastic jibes and trying to wind me up...its as clear as a bright sunny day...maybe you should try life as a comedian as there are only about 3 of them left in England

you mock our independence, our industry and Scotland...yet without an ounce of truth...then claim youre all for Scotland getting more money? ohhh purleaseeee

No....

I really am for redistrubuting people throughout the available land.

Dont need everyone living in the same area > move investment and people will follow and spread out = less congestion

I'd have thought that was a fairly obvious and straight forward concept....

I dont mock Scotland - only its football league