For Fun - What if Axl colaborated with...

[SirTed]

Dr. Dre?

I was watching the Grammy's last night (for the first time ever). Towards the end of the show Dr. Dre came out and performed his newest single with Eminem. It kind of got me thinking...

This may seem strange to all of you, but Dr. Dre and Axl sort of remind me of each other. I think they're both sonic geniuses who in the end might be to meticulous and end up being misunderstood. It's been about 10 years since Dre released his last album and about 17 since the album before that.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of any kind of rap / rock crossover, but something tells me that these two would completely smash any preconceived notions that any of us have about how it would sound. I know it wont ever happen, but I'd love to hear at least one song.

Your thoughts?

[Rockin' Rose]

Sure, might take a long time though, they'd both have to agree the song is good to go.

I'd like Axl to collaborate with David Gilmour, I think their voices could work well together, also Axl playing piano and David guitar

[SirTed]

Agreed on Gilmore, for sure.

[LongGoneDay]

Gilmour? Hell yes.
Not too interested in a collab with Dre though.

[BlowUpYourVideo]

Axl and Todd Rundgren.

[scans n' copies]

I love your idea.  I would add eminem to the mix also.  He and Axl could play up that pissed off, everybody's out to get us vibe.  I mentioned it on another site a couple of months ago  and nobody else seemed to agree with me though, so I think we're in the minority.  Oh well--- 

Have Dre produce and rap a verse, Em rap the other verse(s), Axl sing the chorus, and maybe throw in a solo from Bumble or DJ.

[Doofey]

I think Axl's musical style would fit better with Kanye West than Dr. Dre. Kanye likes classical piano music mixed in with his stuff, which Axl could provide. Plus they have a lot of similar personality traits, so they might be able to write some interesting lyrics.

[Dead N' Bloated]

Serj Tankian.

[doooodickiebr]

the lead singer from cinderella... i forget his name.  he kinda reminded me of axl back in the day...at least his voice did anyway.

[hitmanhart408]

I think Dre/Axl would be fn sweet.

A little off topic, I just watched the Dre video from the Grammys and the drummer during I need a Dr sorta looks like Frank. Im not saying it is but it looks like him from far. Black bald dude with the bushy beard, even kinda drums like him. Would be cool if it was indeed Frank.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r0bt7GEK8A

[LIGuns]

I agree w/ a Tom Kieffer from Cinderella collaboration due to the fact that he can play several instruments N' compose great songs..It'd be cool to hear Axl take on Heartbreak Station or the Sabbath-esque Nobody's Fault..

[One.In.A.Million]

I don't know what everybody else thinks, but I think it would be mega if Axl did a song or two with GN'Rs very own Chris Pitman. He has a very Bowie-ish voice and I think it would own. I know Ayako would love this too, as she's a big Mothergoose fan.  

Maybe if Sextapes release another album, Axl could guest on a few songs like he did on Sebastians' Angel Down.

Other than Chris, I can't think of anyone else really, but I will say this. If Axl did ever colaborate with anyone, it would have to be an artist he really admired. Someone on the level of Springsteen and Elton.

I don't really see Axl colaborating with someone like Dr Dre, unless of course it was something he really was interested in experimenting in. (and if we remember an epic song called 'My World', we can tell it was something Axl was interested in exploring at one point in time. So who knows, he might consider a colaboration with an artist like Dr Dre.)

 

[axlpwns]

Axl and Tony Kakko 

[bigcash2002]

I'd love to see
Axl/Dre
Axl/EM
Axl/EM/Dre

[Dead N' Bloated]

I know I already said Axl with Serj but I would love for Axl to sing on a new System of a Down song or for Serj to sing on a GN'R tune.

 

[gunns1]

I know I already said Axl with Serj but I would love for Axl to sing on a new System of a Down song or for Serj to sing on a GN'R tune.

 

it could of happened once I suppose, Bucket did a song with him if I remember correctly.

[MC13]

Something with Dre or Eminem would be tremendous.

And if we're talking Grammys/R&B/rap, I think Axl and Janelle Monae or b.o.b. could put together some cool stuff as well ... although that's probably about as likely as Shaq rapping on the next Gn'R single.

[LIGuns]

I'd like Axl to collaborate w/ B-Foot, DJ, Stinson,Reed,Ferrarar,Pitman and Fortus on some new songs!!

[manu]

Axl Ft. Meat Loaf

[SirTed]

I don't know what everybody else thinks, but I think it would be mega if Axl did a song or two with GN'Rs very own Chris Pitman. He has a very Bowie-ish voice and I think it would own. I know Ayako would love this too, as she's a big Mothergoose fan.  

Maybe if Sextapes release another album, Axl could guest on a few songs like he did on Sebastians' Angel Down.

Other than Chris, I can't think of anyone else really, but I will say this. If Axl did ever colaborate with anyone, it would have to be an artist he really admired. Someone on the level of Springsteen and Elton.

I don't really see Axl colaborating with someone like Dr Dre, unless of course it was something he really was interested in experimenting in. (and if we remember an epic song called 'My World', we can tell it was something Axl was interested in exploring at one point in time. So who knows, he might consider a colaboration with an artist like Dr Dre.)

 

I totally agree it would have to be someone that Axl admired, and I don't have any idea on his feelings on Dre. Their meticulous nature as far as recording is concerned just reminds me of one another.

Lastly, am I mistaken or didn't Axl have a few meetings with Easy - E before he died, about possibly working together? I swear I remember reading that in a interview or in one of the Q&A's.

[rebelhipi]

gilmour yes!
maybe whole lotta rosie with ac/dc

[westcoast_junkie]

Another one with Mike Monroe!! Or Nicke Borg 

[comaboy]

axl + liam gallagher
axl + noel gallagher
axl + paul mccartney

[LongGoneDay]

I'd prefer to see Axl stick to rock. Not to pigeonhole him, I'm sure he could pull it off, but I think there is enough rap out there. Too much in my opinion. There isn't nearly enough rock, so I'd like to see the few rock bands left stick to what they do best.

I'd love to hear what he could do with Isobel Campell, in similar vein as her work with Lanegan.
Preferably Ax singing to music she writes.

For guitarists, Brian May, Brian Robertson, Scott Gorham and Mick Taylor come to mind.

[Rockin' Rose]

I'd prefer to see Axl stick to rock. Not to pigeonhole him, I'm sure he could pull it off, but I think there is enough rap out there. Too much in my opinion. There isn't nearly enough rock, so I'd like to see the few rock bands left stick to what they do best.

I'd love to hear what he could do with Isobel Campell, in similar vein as her work with Lanegan.
Preferably Ax singing to music she writes.

For guitarists, Brian May, Brian Robertson, Scott Gorham and Mick Taylor come to mind.

Yeah, that'd be cool..   

[moridorr]

Jay-Z.  Look at the Guns N' Roses VS Jay-Z mash up on youtube

[SirTed]

I'd prefer to see Axl stick to rock. Not to pigeonhole him, I'm sure he could pull it off, but I think there is enough rap out there. Too much in my opinion. There isn't nearly enough rock, so I'd like to see the few rock bands left stick to what they do best.

I'd love to hear what he could do with Isobel Campell, in similar vein as her work with Lanegan.
Preferably Ax singing to music she writes.

For guitarists, Brian May, Brian Robertson, Scott Gorham and Mick Taylor come to mind.

I'd prefer Axl stick to "rock" as well. I suppose it just depends on your definition of rock. I imagine something along the line of Chris Cornell's colab. with Timberland. I'm fairly sure that record wasn't that well received, but I dig "Never Far Away" at least, and personally I think both Axl and Dre are a bit more versitile than Cornell and Timbo. I applaude their effort at least, though. It would definitely have more of a pop sound than we're used to from Axl, but you know it would be complex and interesting. That's all I'm saying.

[dash]

Are you all fucking insane!!!! Axl on stage with a fucking raper!!! wtf?!!

What's next, he goes on stage with Back street boys?!!!

Get a good taste.

[LIGuns]

Lastly, am I mistaken or didn't Axl have a few meetings with Easy - E before he died, about possibly working together? I swear I remember reading that in a interview or in one of the Q&A's.

Axl talked about touring w/ NWA, but felt the audiences wouldn't gel..Axl influence  me N' got me interested in so many bands including NWA, NIN, Junkyard N' countless others..

[SirTed]

Are you all fucking insane!!!! Axl on stage with a fucking raper!!! wtf?!!

What's next, he goes on stage with Back street boys?!!!

Get a good taste.

Get a good taste? I like my taste just fine, and I don't think it's too far off from yours. Guns is my favorite band after all.
First of all, I never said anything about a stage. A studio is what I had in mind.
Second, yes, Dr. Dre does rap, but most of his rhymes are ghost written for him, that's not even his strength. His strength is in production. Yes it is rap music, but his sound has always had a very strong harmony, something that I think would cross over well to a more "rock" sound, or at the very least be interesting, which is the point of the thread to begin with. I don't think "rap" would or should be involved at all. Axl has shown he's not afraid to use a drum machine to fill out the sound on CD, whose to say that someone with vast more experience wouldn't be able to bring something to the table? Listening to songs like Better and Prostitute leave me feeling like that's where music is headed. A wonderful combination of drums, guitars, bass and vocal with something extra.

As I said before, I think we all have preconceived notions of "rap" and "rock", and sometimes music we like or don't like fits neatly into those categories, but other times sound crosses those boundaries.  In my experience most of the time that doesn't work out, but sometimes it does, and that's really interesting.

I don't mind the criticism, but at the very least tell me what would be so bad about it. You don't think the two would mesh? try explaining.

[Rockin' Rose]

Are you all fucking insane!!!! Axl on stage with a fucking raper!!! wtf?!!

What's next, he goes on stage with Back street boys?!!!

Get a good taste.

Have you forgotten, or don't know this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vu0yCUimQQ

[Montrealrocks]

I would choose Eminem.  I like him a lot, and would do a great duet...2 bad boys on the same stage.

Christina Aguilera is cool too. Axl loves him...

Anyhow

[dash]

Are you all fucking insane!!!! Axl on stage with a fucking raper!!! wtf?!!

What's next, he goes on stage with Back street boys?!!!

Get a good taste.

Have you forgotten, or don't know this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vu0yCUimQQ



One thing is Axl making a RAP intermission in one music, another is having him playns with a bunch of Rap-holes!!!

It's allready bad enough to have to listen Slash completly trashing Paradise City and SCOM with Ferguie and Cypruss Hill

[Dead N' Bloated]

I know I already said Axl with Serj but I would love for Axl to sing on a new System of a Down song or for Serj to sing on a GN'R tune.

 

it could of happened once I suppose, Bucket did a song with him if I remember correctly.

I am not sure about that at all. Wold be cool though.

I know Brain Played on, I think all of Elect the Dead and some of Imperfect harmonies.


But hearing Axl on a song like Mezmerise would be killer!!!

I reckon Serj would suit songs like TWAT and Catcher.

[LongGoneDay]

I just read an interview with Lemmy that reminded me of this thread, and the thought of Axl playing with a rap artist.

"Rock 'n' roll needs me to keep it clean. A lot of people try to kill it." - Lemmy

[SirTed]

I just read an interview with Lemmy that reminded me of this thread, and the thought of Axl playing with a rap artist.

"Rock 'n' roll needs me to keep it clean. A lot of people try to kill it." - Lemmy

Sorry...what is this supposed to mean? I take it as (paraphrasing)

"Rock n' roll needs me to keep doing like I've been doing, because there's a lot of people out here fucking it up?"

I can appreciate that.

The only point that I have tried to make, and have to do a better job of I guess is...
I'm not thinking of Dre as a "rap artist" not a rapper at all actually. Just a producer. When I thought about it, the thought of Dre even appearing on a track never crossed my mind. I simply was curious what it would sound like if Dre produced an Axl song or two. Same guitars. bass, drums, same screeching Axl. I mentioned that Chris Cornell album Scream, in particular I like "Never Far Away". The whole album is produced by Timberland and as far as I know he doesn't rap or anything on any of the songs. This is the kind of thing I had in mind. 

[BlowUpYourVideo]

Christina Aguilera is cool too. Axl loves him...

Wait, what?



Axl + Liam Gallagher as comaboy suggested would be interesting.

[One.In.A.Million]

I think it would me outstanding if Axl colaborated with Toshi (X Japan). I think Toshi has a good ear for synth and orchestral arrangements, him and Axl on the same project would be out of this world. Hearing Axl on a song arranged like Forever Love, Tears or Endless Rain would be superb. 

I would also love a collaboration of some kind between Axl and Trent. It is something that I think would be very interesting, the sounds, effects, everything. 

[gunns1]

I know I already said Axl with Serj but I would love for Axl to sing on a new System of a Down song or for Serj to sing on a GN'R tune.

 

it could of happened once I suppose, Bucket did a song with him if I remember correctly.

I am not sure about that at all. Wold be cool though.

I know Brain Played on, I think all of Elect the Dead and some of Imperfect harmonies.


But hearing Axl on a song like Mezmerise would be killer!!!

I reckon Serj would suit songs like TWAT and Catcher.

In response to your post, I already posted it but it seems to have been deleted.

Its a song off one of Buckets albums, (looks like I cant mention it) and Serj did the lyrics to it (did 2 songs in total).

Dont see why my post had to be deleted but anyway.

[jarmo]

If you wanna talk about Buckethead's solo albums, please feel free to do so in the correct section.

This thread has very little to do with said subject.

Thanks!



/jarmo

[COMAMOTIVE]

I often will hear a song on the radio or elswhere and during certain parts - will think the Axl voice would work well

I'd like to hear how Axl's voice would sound on a song with either Vedder or Dave Matthews - something about their tones I think would work well with the voice

[gunns1]

If you wanna talk about Buckethead's solo albums, please feel free to do so in the correct section.

This thread has very little to do with said subject.

Thanks!



/jarmo

Sorry Jarmo, my bad, just replying to a question a mate said. all good.

[Axlspants]

What about who you wouldn't want to see him collaborate with!?

Ok what about Black Eyed Peas, how awful would that be to see Axl kicking alongside Will.I.am (a twat!) whilst fergie and the two who don't do anything bang their way through some inane shite, I would cry!

I'd like to see him appear on Lenny K's new album that would be pretty cool.

 

[sweetbreakdown]

I would like to see Axl doing something with Fiona Apple or The Kills.

Does anyone remember about some talking of Lionel Richie recording Ebony and Ivory w/ Axl? Was it a fake story made back then? Did Lionel ever confirmed?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oD3qumgznOYJ:www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php%3Ftopic%3D10425.20+ebony+and+ivory+lionel+richie+axl+rose&cd=2&hl=pt-BR&ct=clnk&gl=br&source=www.google.com.br

[LongGoneDay]

I just read an interview with Lemmy that reminded me of this thread, and the thought of Axl playing with a rap artist.

"Rock 'n' roll needs me to keep it clean. A lot of people try to kill it." - Lemmy

Sorry...what is this supposed to mean? I take it as (paraphrasing)

"Rock n' roll needs me to keep doing like I've been doing, because there's a lot of people out here fucking it up?"

I can appreciate that.

The only point that I have tried to make, and have to do a better job of I guess is...
I'm not thinking of Dre as a "rap artist" not a rapper at all actually. Just a producer. When I thought about it, the thought of Dre even appearing on a track never crossed my mind. I simply was curious what it would sound like if Dre produced an Axl song or two. Same guitars. bass, drums, same screeching Axl. I mentioned that Chris Cornell album Scream, in particular I like "Never Far Away". The whole album is produced by Timberland and as far as I know he doesn't rap or anything on any of the songs. This is the kind of thing I had in mind. 

I hear what you are saying. Who knows, it could work. I'd like to see them getting back to a more organic way of recording, a live feel, rather then recording multiple takes in different places and piecing it together. So whoever could get them to do that. What ever happened to Mike Clink, anyway?

I personally hated the idea of Cornell teaming with Timbaland, and hated what I heard even more so, but I figured that if Chris stripped the songs down, they'd probably work because he's an amazing songwriter. The right and wrong producer can unfortunately make or break an album.

On a side note, I'm glad Chris made the album though, because he seems to be trying to make up for it now, with an acoustic tour and Soundgarden reunion, haha.

[RusselNash]

Axl and Jack White.. That would be an interesting duo..

[SirTed]

I just read an interview with Lemmy that reminded me of this thread, and the thought of Axl playing with a rap artist.

"Rock 'n' roll needs me to keep it clean. A lot of people try to kill it." - Lemmy

Sorry...what is this supposed to mean? I take it as (paraphrasing)

"Rock n' roll needs me to keep doing like I've been doing, because there's a lot of people out here fucking it up?"

I can appreciate that.

The only point that I have tried to make, and have to do a better job of I guess is...
I'm not thinking of Dre as a "rap artist" not a rapper at all actually. Just a producer. When I thought about it, the thought of Dre even appearing on a track never crossed my mind. I simply was curious what it would sound like if Dre produced an Axl song or two. Same guitars. bass, drums, same screeching Axl. I mentioned that Chris Cornell album Scream, in particular I like "Never Far Away". The whole album is produced by Timberland and as far as I know he doesn't rap or anything on any of the songs. This is the kind of thing I had in mind. 

I hear what you are saying. Who knows, it could work. I'd like to see them getting back to a more organic way of recording, a live feel, rather then recording multiple takes in different places and piecing it together. So whoever could get them to do that. What ever happened to Mike Clink, anyway?

I personally hated the idea of Cornell teaming with Timbaland, and hated what I heard even more so, but I figured that if Chris stripped the songs down, they'd probably work because he's an amazing songwriter. The right and wrong producer can unfortunately make or break an album.

On a side note, I'm glad Chris made the album though, because he seems to be trying to make up for it now, with an acoustic tour and Soundgarden reunion, haha.

I getcha. I totally get what you're saying about Timberland and Cornell. I'm not really a fan of most of the record, like I said - I do like that one song. But strictly as a pop song, not a rock tune. I'm more interested in the idea than the execution. I give them both massive props for trying something out of their comfort zone. 
As far a future production of Guns - I go back and forth. I've always kind of fantasized about Axl having two projects going. One - the more organic original Guns sounds and the other the Guns sound as we know it today. I don't think I could ever trade one for the other, unless I was forced, then I think I would take today's sound. Anyway...
Thanks for your thoughts.
 

[LongGoneDay]

The more I think of it, the more interested I am in hearing Axl collaborate with someone different. It would be interesting to hear him outside of the GNR moniker in some sort of side project. I love how they did that in the Seattle scene back in the day, with Mad Season, Temple of the Dog etc. Not as many options these days I guess, but there are some.

[Jdog0830]

I want Axl and Elton John to do something together again be a real cool song

[Dave Jenno]

Axl and Liam Gallagher (vocally awesome)
Axl and Bono (would love a studio collaboration from these 2)
Axl and Johnny Rotten
Axl and James Hetfield/Metallica
Axl and Bruce Springsteen
Axl and Bruce Dickinson


Marilyn Manson, Chester Bennington, Corey Taylor   

[Marion68]

I would hear Axl with James Hetfield,because i like Metallica too

[Halo69]

Dr. Dre? 

Haven't you guys seen the failure that are those "Beats" headphones he is selling now ?

I got my hands on one of those... regret it so much.... fuckin large amount for a quality that u can get on "normal" headphones.

[Halo69]

It would be cool to see Axl working with Marilyn Manson or Ozzy!

[Montrealrocks]

Christina Aguilera is cool too. Axl loves him...

Wait, what?

He said in an interview that she was the singer with the best voice around....

[BlowUpYourVideo]

Christina Aguilera is cool too. Axl loves him...

Wait, what?

He said in an interview that she was the singer with the best voice around....

it was more the "loves him" part that got me....


But I don't think I knew Axl said that about Christina, that's cool.

[jarmo]

Dr. Dre?

Would be interesting I think.

If it happened organically. Meaning that both were inspired and excited about the idea/song. It would probably be amazing!


When you think about it, so many collaborations happen for the wrong reason(s). Often you can tell that there's something missing and the collaboration is only good, not great or amazing....



I personally would rather see Axl work with Dr Dre or Eminem than some guy from Cinderella or Metallica...





/jarmo

[redrose]

I think David Guetta is also a good choice as eminem.

[gunnar]

Apart for him to collaborate with the current GNR members to get a new album out of the door, I would like to see him do some songs with Kate Bush.  I don't look forward to waiting though, they both take 12+ years to produce an album

[kuetastic]

The chick from Evanescence, even if only to duet on an Axl or Guns Chorus.

Actually I can think of a numbers of girls I'd love to here collaborate with Axl, redo tracks or simply cover songs such as TIL.

Shirley Manson, Fiona Apple as somebody already mentioned, chick from Flyleaf, Australian lady by the name of Ashleigh Mannix, Canadian women Allison Crowe, Jewell, the list goes on.

Could really add to the emotion of some slower songs.

As far as men go, a little left field but Leonard Cohen or Willie Nelson.

[sworrm]

Ed Vedder and Axl the deep baritone and the high pitch wailing. Like Cornell and Vedder in Temple of the Dog doing Hunger Strike

[Jeramy]

never mind dre.  three six mafia (dj paul and juicy j).... am i wrong for that? 

[BlowUpYourVideo]

The chick from Evanescence, even if only to duet on an Axl or Guns Chorus.

Actually I can think of a numbers of girls I'd love to here collaborate with Axl, redo tracks or simply cover songs such as TIL.

Shirley Manson, Fiona Apple as somebody already mentioned, chick from Flyleaf, Australian lady by the name of Ashleigh Mannix, Canadian women Allison Crowe, Jewell, the list goes on.

Could really add to the emotion of some slower songs.

As far as men go, a little left field but Leonard Cohen or Willie Nelson.

Good idea, especially Amy Lee. I like female singers, and it would be cool to hear how one of them might sound along with Axl's voice.

Someone quite 'operatic' would be good on some big monster song, like Amy or Charlotte Wessels from the band Delain.

[WhatIsItMan]

RICK ASTLEY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbrV-uG_Giw

[Bodhi]

never been a fan of Rap/Rock combo's, although if anyone can pull it off and not make it feel cheesy its Eminem and Axl.  Rap music is cheesy by nature, and has a very short shelf life, compared to rock albums anyway, thats why its hard to make a rap song that stands the test of time.  Sure it happens, but even an artist like Eminem has a lot of forgettable material from his earlier records, (raping his mother, rapping about NSYNC, etc)  Its more about whats hot at that moment.  I would enjoy Tyler, Hetfield, or M Shadows, something along those lines.

[DeN]

I'd love to see Axl working with Andre 3000, it could be amazing.

[IzzyDutch]

Juan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n69KLKBhNxM&feature=player_embedded#at=107

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Juan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n69KLKBhNxM&feature=player_embedded#at=107

 

He's obviously not Axl, but he does a good job there.  The title of the article "Your Axl Rose Impression Will Never Be As Good As This Guy?s".

This link starts at the beginning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n69KLKBhNxM

[AxlzMyHero]

Something different but I would like to see him do a colab with Christina Perri.  She sings from the soul like Axl and has an AWESOME voice.  Check her out.  "http://www.youtube.com/embed/8v_4O44sfjM

[Jdog0830]

Avenged Sevenfold and Guns N` Roses would be a great song.

[richwoman]

PJ Harvey if he was serious if he was having a laugh Diamond Dave

[Lord Kayoss]

Axl and that guy from Skid Row............oh wait.

Would like to hear Axl record a song with Elton John.  I think it'd be friggin sweet.

[SirTed]

 Although almost everyone misunderstood my original post - I felt a bit vindicated when I read this:

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/post/137685-watch-video-for-dr.-dres/

"Dr. Dre and Axl Rose might actually have been cut from the same artistic cloth."

Not much of a read really, but the videos are kind of similar. Just thought it was kind of cool.

[One.In.A.Million]

I would love to see Toshi from X Japan do a song with Axl. I think it would be mega to be honest, both are artistical geniuses.

I also think a song with vocals by Axl, together with a long solo section by the late X Japan guitarist Hide would be out of this world. 

-RIP Hide- 

[Dead N' Bloated]

I would hear Axl with James Hetfield,because i like Metallica too

That I think would be awesome!!! I love Metallica nearly as much as GN'R so that would be awesome. Plus I think James' and Axl's voices would compliment each other in a huge way. I couldn't really hear Axl singing many Metallica songs besides maybe Fixxxer, Hit the lights or Sweet Amber. Probably a few others too. But I think if Axl N' James got together to write some stuff, they could create some epic material. Never gunna happen, though. They aren't the biggest fans of each other, apparently.