2017 Baseball Season/Off Season Discussion

[faldor]

I don't think I'm as alone as you'd like to think. I really don't care what Girardi or Betances say. They're most likely going to say it was unintentional if it was or not. And Torre is just looking at the situation, which he always does and assuming it wasn't intentional because it was a tie game. I've seen it multiple times this year. The situation doesn't matter. These pitchers are too full of pride and put sticking up for their teammates over the actual game situation. They hope to get revenge and not get tossed because "no way he'd throw at someone with the game on the line". Then they hope they can regroup and work out of the jam.

I think he should've been suspended, quite harshly. It's dangerous to assume intent. But it's even more dangerous to hit a guy in the head. It really should be an automatic ejection and suspension regardless of the situation. Maybe that would deter pitchers from throwing up and in, especially those with shaky control to begin with. How many batters has Betances hit in the head? Was this the first? In that game, with all that went on. Seems suspect to me.

https://sports.yahoo.com/ugly-evidence-may-signal-intent-yankees-tigers-brawl-062504585.html

https://www.thescore.com/news/1358537

https://www.pressreader.com/usa/new-york-daily-news/20170825/282119226669217

I didn't realize he claimed he meant to throw a breaking ball. Did he forget midway and just uncork a 98 mph fastball instead. That's no breaking ball I've ever seen. It's pretty clear to me there was purpose behind the pitch. Did he mean to hit him in the head? I doubt that. At least I would surely hope not. He may not have meant to hit him at all. But he definitely (IMO) meant to go up and in and it got away from him. That's dangerous. Too dangerous. He got off easy and should consider himself lucky. Hopefully he's more careful in the future.

[pilferk]

I don't think I'm as alone as you'd like to think. I really don't care what Girardi or Betances say. They're most likely going to say it was unintentional if it was or not. And Torre is just looking at the situation, which he always does and assuming it wasn't intentional because it was a tie game. I've seen it multiple times this year. The situation doesn't matter. These pitchers are too full of pride and put sticking up for their teammates over the actual game situation. They hope to get revenge and not get tossed because "no way he'd throw at someone with the game on the line". Then they hope they can regroup and work out of the jam.

I think he should've been suspended, quite harshly. It's dangerous to assume intent. But it's even more dangerous to hit a guy in the head. It really should be an automatic ejection and suspension regardless of the situation. Maybe that would deter pitchers from throwing up and in, especially those with shaky control to begin with. How many batters has Betances hit in the head? Was this the first? In that game, with all that went on. Seems suspect to me.

https://sports.yahoo.com/ugly-evidence-may-signal-intent-yankees-tigers-brawl-062504585.html

Right...first read that opening paragraph.

Then realize Passans numbers are wrong.

Betances has hit 7 betters, and thrown 4 wild pitches is 49 innings.  That's a screw up every...4.5 innings.  Not to mention, wild pitches only count when there's someone on base. Again, I point out that with Betances, baserunners are relatively few.

He's confining his metrics to "fastballs". Well, I have news for Mr. Passan: No matter what MLB labeled that pitch, it wasn't actually a fastball.  His grip (and the catchers call) proves it. It was meant to be his "slurve" (I still say its a slider). It came out of his grip as...something else.

He threw the same pitch against the M's...just didn't hit anyone...and there was no one on base. Called breaking ball, 96mph over the head of the batter (who was short...and it missed by inches...though the guy sat out to avoid it anyway) to the screen.

He threw the same pitch against the Blue Jays in early July, and it cost them a game:

http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-yankees-jays-0706-20170705-story.html

FYI, the errant breaking ball they'er talking about in that situation? 95 at the screen. It also would not count as a wild pitch...because it was ball 4.

So, again, I'll tell you out right: Passans numbers are wrong, he's massively misinformed about Betances wildness, and EVEN HE ACKNOWLEDGES IN HIS FIRST PARAGRAPH IT WAS MAYBE (probably) NOT INTENTIONAL.

You're (both) reaching.

https://www.thescore.com/news/1358537

So, the guy who wrote the "opposed" piece agreeing with you? Brandon Wile? Sox homer. You're making my point, masterfully.

https://twitter.com/bwile17?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

https://www.pressreader.com/usa/new-york-daily-news/20170825/282119226669217

"You can argue intent".  I don't see much support for your point of view in there.....just typical Daily News tabloid sensationalist language (which is in all their articles, fyi).

I didn't realize he claimed he meant to throw a breaking ball. Did he forget midway and just uncork a 98 mph fastball instead. That's no breaking ball I've ever seen.

He thows his "slurve" at about 92.  He's done the same thing (see article about Jays, above) at least a dozen times (and probably closing in on two), this season, that I can count and have personally witnessed.  And it's always mid to upper 90s', high right, and to the screen. Every. single. time. I swear, it's just about once ever other appearance. If it's "No breaking ball you've ever seen", you're proving my point.  Because I've seen him throw that pitch 3 times within the last week...similar velocity and results.

It's pretty clear to me there was purpose behind the pitch. Did he mean to hit him in the head? I doubt that. At least I would surely hope not. He may not have meant to hit him at all. But he definitely (IMO) meant to go up and in and it got away from him. That's dangerous. Too dangerous. He got off easy and should consider himself lucky. Hopefully he's more careful in the future.

It's clear to you because thats what you want to see.  That pitch was supposed to be (and was called) down and away. YOU CAN LITERALLY SEE HIS SLURVE GRIP in the replay!

He's wild this season.  He was, a bit, last season, too. 

MLB agrees with me.  Everyone in sports media I've heard talk about this, now with the exception of Passan (who I often disagree with), seems to agree with me. Everyone playing in the game, that was involved in the play (on both sides) seems to agree with me.  That might not make me right...I can't read the guys mind and nor can you...but I'd say it gives me a pretty solid basis for an opinion. General concensus, at least, if not outright validation.

I also have to add, I find your conviction on this issue a little ironic, given some of our discussions about Pedro Martinez in the past. You struck me as a fan of his, during his time with the Sox....

[faldor]

Absolutely a fan of Pedro. I don't recall him ever hitting anyone in the head. I could be wrong. I know he went up and in plenty. All I'm saying is that if you're going to take that dangerous risk of throwing in the vicinity of someone's head then you should pay the consequences if you hit them in the head. You shouldn't get a free pass because he may not have meant to do it. He did it, that's the bottom line. And with everything surrounding the situation it was an awfully ironic time for him to have one just get away from him. I'd be saying the same thing if he played for the Pirates. It has nothing to do with the uniform he's wearing. Matt Barnes hit someone in the head earlier this year and was rightfully suspended. I didn't defend him and say he didn't mean to do it. Again, I don't think he meant to hit him in the head but he did. Can't argue those facts.

[pilferk]

Absolutely a fan of Pedro. I don't recall him ever hitting anyone in the head. I could be wrong. I know he went up and in plenty.

You. Can't. Remember. Pedro. Trying. to. Hit. Anyone. In. the. Head???

We're talking about THROWING, intentionally (and he admitted it), at a guys head? And more than once?

Wow. Just...I don't even know what to say to that response.  Actually, it speaks for itself.

What about Josh Beckett?

I mean, seriously, the Sox had 3 (if you count Clemens early career) of the most notorious head hunters in recent (if not total) MLB history.

It's just a little ironic to hear this argument from a Sox fan, given all that.

All I'm saying is that if you're going to take that dangerous risk of throwing in the vicinity of someone's head then you should pay the consequences if you hit them in the head. You shouldn't get a free pass because he may not have meant to do it. He did it, that's the bottom line.

So, to be clear, your position is that any pitcher, in any situation, who hits a guy in the head should instantly face a suspension.

Fair enough. But that's never going to happen. And it's not the current rule, so....

And with everything surrounding the situation it was an awfully ironic time for him to have one just get away from him. I'd be saying the same thing if he played for the Pirates. It has nothing to do with the uniform he's wearing. Matt Barnes hit someone in the head earlier this year and was rightfully suspended. I didn't defend him and say he didn't mean to do it. Again, I don't think he meant to hit him in the head but he did. Can't argue those facts.

It was a terrible coincidence. Yup. But as I've demonstrated, they've been "getting away from him" with regular frequency, all season.

And he was thrown out of the game for it (and I have zero objection to that).

MLB precedent is: You don't get suspended if you weren't trying to hit someone.  Its about intent.  There was no intent for Betances (and, really, that's no longer an arguable point...the "judge" has decided that fact already).  Obviously, MLB felt there was, with Barnes (....like throwing at a guys head who the Sox think injured their second baseman with a spikes high slide). You'd have to take that differentiation up with them, if you don't think there was intent.  I didn't see the play, or the game, so am not even going to venture a guess.

I get it: NO amount of evidence is going to change your mind on Betances.

[faldor]

There is no "evidence" other than people's opinions. That's the silly part of this discussion. You're going on and on posting all these opinions to prove my opinion is wrong. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it.

I said I can't remember Pedro ever hitting anyone in the head. Pedro pitched up and in, no doubt. He also had very good control. There's a difference between throwing up and in and hitting someone in the head. I'll give you a hint, it's the getting hit in the head part that's different. Betances is a little wild, which makes it that much more dangerous for him to go up and in on a batter. I have no problem with pitching inside. I have a problem with guys getting hit in the head. I also think the situation was handled real poorly by the umps. He should've been tossed right away, not after being pressured into it. In that situation regardless of perceived intent he has to be thrown out right away.

Have a lovely day.

[pilferk]

There is no "evidence" other than people's opinions. That's the silly part of this discussion. You're going on and on posting all these opinions to prove my opinion is wrong. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it.

Thanks. This proves my point, masterfully.

I've given you data. I've given you multiple examples of Betances losing control that are exactly similar to the pitch in question (and there are many more to be found). I've given you anecdotes from people on the field. I've laid out MLBs opinion on the matter. I've given you things, OTHER THAN JUST "this is the way it should be" (which, really, is all you've contributed...along with "I didn't actually see it, live").  That's EVIDENCE.  And I could give you a mountain more, and it would be pointless.

But it's not just opinions.

But, as you just said: None of that matters. Your opinion is unshakeable in the face of anything else.  I think that sums things up perfectly. And yes, you are certainly entitled to it....as the rest of those reading the thread are entitled to discount it.

I said I can't remember Pedro ever hitting anyone in the head. Pedro pitched up and in, no doubt. He also had very good control. There's a difference between throwing up and in and hitting someone in the head. I'll give you a hint, it's the getting hit in the head part that's different.

Pedro admitted to trying to hit people in the head. And he succeeded a few times, at least. You're saying "Since batters were ready for him to try to hit them in the heads, because he was a known head hunter, and managed to get out of the way sometimes...all is good". OK....

Betances has hit precisely one person, in his career, in the head.  His pitches have sailed over, behind, and near their heads when he loses his grip.  But precisely one has made contact.

Again, you're proving my point better than I ever could.

Betances is a little wild, which makes it that much more dangerous for him to go up and in on a batter. I have no problem with pitching inside. I have a problem with guys getting hit in the head. I also think the situation was handled real poorly by the umps. He should've been tossed right away, not after being pressured into it. In that situation regardless of perceived intent he has to be thrown out right away.

Have a lovely day.

And I have no problem with him getting tossed. Immediately. And we agree the umps sucked, and if they had issued warnings right at the start when Sanchez got drilled.....likely none of it would have happened.

But again, if you want every pitcher suspended who hits a guy in the head, you're going to see at least one suspension a week. Maybe more. Somewhere between 20 and 30 batters get hit in the head a season...which lasts about 24 weeks.

MLB isn't going to do it.

[tim_m]

Verlander to the Astros holy shit!

[pilferk]

Verlander to the Astros holy shit!

That is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE trade!!!

[JAEBALL]

Verlander to the Astros holy shit!

Sometimes trades just make perfect sense...

this falls under that category.

[tim_m]

They needed him to be a legit contender this year.

[faldor]

There is no "evidence" other than people's opinions. That's the silly part of this discussion. You're going on and on posting all these opinions to prove my opinion is wrong. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it.

Thanks. This proves my point, masterfully.

I've given you data. I've given you multiple examples of Betances losing control that are exactly similar to the pitch in question (and there are many more to be found). I've given you anecdotes from people on the field. I've laid out MLBs opinion on the matter. I've given you things, OTHER THAN JUST "this is the way it should be" (which, really, is all you've contributed...along with "I didn't actually see it, live").  That's EVIDENCE.  And I could give you a mountain more, and it would be pointless.

But it's not just opinions.

But, as you just said: None of that matters. Your opinion is unshakeable in the face of anything else.  I think that sums things up perfectly. And yes, you are certainly entitled to it....as the rest of those reading the thread are entitled to discount it.

I said I can't remember Pedro ever hitting anyone in the head. Pedro pitched up and in, no doubt. He also had very good control. There's a difference between throwing up and in and hitting someone in the head. I'll give you a hint, it's the getting hit in the head part that's different.

Pedro admitted to trying to hit people in the head. And he succeeded a few times, at least. You're saying "Since batters were ready for him to try to hit them in the heads, because he was a known head hunter, and managed to get out of the way sometimes...all is good". OK....

Betances has hit precisely one person, in his career, in the head.  His pitches have sailed over, behind, and near their heads when he loses his grip.  But precisely one has made contact.

Again, you're proving my point better than I ever could.

Betances is a little wild, which makes it that much more dangerous for him to go up and in on a batter. I have no problem with pitching inside. I have a problem with guys getting hit in the head. I also think the situation was handled real poorly by the umps. He should've been tossed right away, not after being pressured into it. In that situation regardless of perceived intent he has to be thrown out right away.

Have a lovely day.

And I have no problem with him getting tossed. Immediately. And we agree the umps sucked, and if they had issued warnings right at the start when Sanchez got drilled.....likely none of it would have happened.

But again, if you want every pitcher suspended who hits a guy in the head, you're going to see at least one suspension a week. Maybe more. Somewhere between 20 and 30 batters get hit in the head a season...which lasts about 24 weeks.

MLB isn't going to do it.

I don't remember Pedro saying he tried to hit anyone in the head. Do you have EVIDENCE of that? I'm sorry for using logic that it looked a little sketchy that Betances hit a guy in the head after multiple guys had been hit prior and immediately acted like he meant to throw a breaking ball that somehow went 98 mph. Despite all the EVIDENCE and quantifiable data you've posted. I ain't buying it. You chose to, that's fine with me. I'm well past it. Sanchez somehow got his suspension lowered to 3 games. Not sure what the rationale is there but, it is what it is.

One final thing. I don't want to hear you say another bad word about Pedro since he helped Severino become the elite pitcher he's been this year by helping him craft his changeup. You should be kissing the ground that Pedro walks on. I think that's a story that hasn't gotten enough pub and somehow Pedro gets a pass on it because he helped a countryman of his. The guy still holds some sort of position with the Sox but he's helping out a Yankees pitcher in the offseason? You're welcome for that.

[faldor]

I figure I'd get ahead of this and post it now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/sports/baseball/boston-red-sox-stealing-signs-yankees.html

Without getting too deep into this, their sign stealing hasn't worked very well this year as their offense has been quite anemic. I guess it did work for the series in question though and maybe the one time they knocked Severino around. That kind of came out of nowhere. Other than that, the supposed stealing of signs has been a giant failure this season.

[JAEBALL]

I fell asleep last night around 10... Boston was losing 2-0 and the Yanks were up 6-2...


wtf lol


As for the stealing signs.... look I hate everything about the Redsox...especially the fucking crybaby manager who complains after EVERY SINGLE pitch.... but I can't get too hot and bothered about this.

[pilferk]

I don't remember Pedro saying he tried to hit anyone in the head. Do you have EVIDENCE of that?

Wow..that's SOME selective memory you got going on there:

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/pedro-martinez-in-book-when-i-hit-a-batter-it-was-90-percent-intentional/  (and he hit people in the head so...logic and math would dictate...he meant to do it, right?)

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/clubhouse_insider/2017/04/pedro_martinez_says_he_would_have_drilled_manny_machado_in  (note: He says "you RARELY saw me go up to the head..not "you never"...because he hit guys, and threw at guys, in the head before)

http://archive.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2003/10/13/martinezs_reign_should_end/

And, you know, the incident where he POINTED TO HIS HEAD AND THREATENED TO THROW AT SOMEONE?! But, that's right...he meant "I'm gonna remember this".   

Seriously, this is exactly my point.  You "can't remember" when it's your guy. But you instantly assume the worst when it's "the other guy".

I mean, that's really all that needs to be said, right?

I'm sorry for using logic that it looked a little sketchy that Betances hit a guy in the head after multiple guys had been hit prior and immediately acted like he meant to throw a breaking ball that somehow went 98 mph. Despite all the EVIDENCE and quantifiable data you've posted. I ain't buying it. You chose to, that's fine with me. I'm well past it.

1) You're not using logic.  Logic would take into account the other factors I've outlined when forming your opinion. And listening to the guys on the field. And taking into account the game situation.  You aren't doing any of that. You're simply guessing Betances intent, based on....what, exactly? Something you saw on replay hours later? OK...fair enough. You are certainly entitled to that opinion.  But it's also fair to color that opinion, no? To add some context to it from someone with a different viewpoint?

2) You're "well past it" but are resurrecting a week old response? OK.....

Sanchez somehow got his suspension lowered to 3 games. Not sure what the rationale is there but, it is what it is.

And Miggy's was reduced to 6.

And Smith's was reduced to 3.

Everyone involved got a game cut just for filing. It's like the standard MLB consolation prize on appeals.

Romine will likewise probably get his cut to 1...which they'll announce tomorrow (or Friday, if the game is rained out tonight), after Sanchez has completed his suspension.

One final thing. I don't want to hear you say another bad word about Pedro since he helped Severino become the elite pitcher he's been this year by helping him craft his changeup. You should be kissing the ground that Pedro walks on. I think that's a story that hasn't gotten enough pub and somehow Pedro gets a pass on it because he helped a countryman of his. The guy still holds some sort of position with the Sox but he's helping out a Yankees pitcher in the offseason? You're welcome for that.

He was, is, and always be a punk.  I don't care if he helps Sevy win a Cy Young.  He was a punk on the expos. A punk on the Sox. A punk on the Phillies.  The fact he's a talented pitcher doesn't change his character on the field. Nor does the fact he decided to help someone who happens to be a Yankee. Miggy could show Judge the secrets to great hitting (and I mean a baseball..not his wife), and Miggy would still be a punk.

But apparently being a punk when he's on "your" team is fine....and deserves every benefit of every doubt. I mean, when the guy COMES OUT and admits to headhunting and going after people on a regular basis...he's just misunderstood. Right? But being a little wild, with no history of actually plunking people anywhere on their bodies, intentionally, means an instant assumption of bad intent.  The mind boggles at that "logic".

[pilferk]

I figure I'd get ahead of this and post it now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/sports/baseball/boston-red-sox-stealing-signs-yankees.html

Without getting too deep into this, their sign stealing hasn't worked very well this year as their offense has been quite anemic. I guess it did work for the series in question though and maybe the one time they knocked Severino around. That kind of came out of nowhere. Other than that, the supposed stealing of signs has been a giant failure this season.

I'm not too dusted up over this, tbh.  MLB seems a little more concerned, though.

Besides, the rest of the country is so used to Boston teams cheating, I'm not even sure why this is a story.

[faldor]

I don't remember Pedro saying he tried to hit anyone in the head. Do you have EVIDENCE of that?

Wow..that's SOME selective memory you got going on there:

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/pedro-martinez-in-book-when-i-hit-a-batter-it-was-90-percent-intentional/  (and he hit people in the head so...logic and math would dictate...he meant to do it, right?)

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/clubhouse_insider/2017/04/pedro_martinez_says_he_would_have_drilled_manny_machado_in  (note: He says "you RARELY saw me go up to the head..not "you never"...because he hit guys, and threw at guys, in the head before)

http://archive.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2003/10/13/martinezs_reign_should_end/

And, you know, the incident where he POINTED TO HIS HEAD AND THREATENED TO THROW AT SOMEONE?! But, that's right...he meant "I'm gonna remember this".   

Seriously, this is exactly my point.  You "can't remember" when it's your guy. But you instantly assume the worst when it's "the other guy".

I mean, that's really all that needs to be said, right?

I'm sorry for using logic that it looked a little sketchy that Betances hit a guy in the head after multiple guys had been hit prior and immediately acted like he meant to throw a breaking ball that somehow went 98 mph. Despite all the EVIDENCE and quantifiable data you've posted. I ain't buying it. You chose to, that's fine with me. I'm well past it.

1) You're not using logic.  Logic would take into account the other factors I've outlined when forming your opinion. And listening to the guys on the field. And taking into account the game situation.  You aren't doing any of that. You're simply guessing Betances intent, based on....what, exactly? Something you saw on replay hours later? OK...fair enough. You are certainly entitled to that opinion.  But it's also fair to color that opinion, no? To add some context to it from someone with a different viewpoint?

2) You're "well past it" but are resurrecting a week old response? OK.....

Sanchez somehow got his suspension lowered to 3 games. Not sure what the rationale is there but, it is what it is.

And Miggy's was reduced to 6.

And Smith's was reduced to 3.

Everyone involved got a game cut just for filing. It's like the standard MLB consolation prize on appeals.

Romine will likewise probably get his cut to 1...which they'll announce tomorrow (or Friday, if the game is rained out tonight), after Sanchez has completed his suspension.

One final thing. I don't want to hear you say another bad word about Pedro since he helped Severino become the elite pitcher he's been this year by helping him craft his changeup. You should be kissing the ground that Pedro walks on. I think that's a story that hasn't gotten enough pub and somehow Pedro gets a pass on it because he helped a countryman of his. The guy still holds some sort of position with the Sox but he's helping out a Yankees pitcher in the offseason? You're welcome for that.

He was, is, and always be a punk.  I don't care if he helps Sevy win a Cy Young.  He was a punk on the expos. A punk on the Sox. A punk on the Phillies.  The fact he's a talented pitcher doesn't change his character on the field. Nor does the fact he decided to help someone who happens to be a Yankee. Miggy could show Judge the secrets to great hitting (and I mean a baseball..not his wife), and Miggy would still be a punk.

But apparently being a punk when he's on "your" team is fine....and deserves every benefit of every doubt. I mean, when the guy COMES OUT and admits to headhunting and going after people on a regular basis...he's just misunderstood. Right? But being a little wild, with no history of actually plunking people anywhere on their bodies, intentionally, means an instant assumption of bad intent.  The mind boggles at that "logic".

I guess I did forget the pointing at the head. Ok, you got me on that one. Did he though ever actually hit someone in the head in his career? I never said he didn't pitch up and in. He obviously had great control, which made it pretty clear there was purpose to it when batters were hit. Although I can't believe he hit Gerald Williams on purpose when he had a no hitter going and he charged the mound. I think Pedro said a lot of things to talk tough. Maybe he did legitimately throw at people's heads instead of just in the vicinity. If so, thankfully he never connected. Or did he? I'm still waiting for an answer to that.

I don't have the time or energy to argue back and forth with you every day, so that's why there's a delay in my responses.

And I am using logic, you just don't see it the way I do. That's fine, but don't tell me what I think is wrong. You want to believe no pitcher in baseball has ever thrown at someone because the game situation didn't dictate it, fine. I'll tell you I've seen it three times this season alone, including Betances, Sale, and Kluber. Joe Torre has loudly let it be known that he factors in game situations when handing out these punishments so a pitcher has the blueprint if they want to drill someone and not get suspended. Hit someone in a tie or close game and you won't be punished. That's all you need to do.

I don't hate Betances, I don't think he was trying to hit McCann in the head. I do think he meant to hit him and it got away from him. I don't believe for one second that he meant to throw a curve instead. I believe he should've been thrown out immediately and suspended based on what went on in the game as a whole, not because it was a tie game at the time. And that's that.

[pilferk]

I guess I did forget the pointing at the head. Ok, you got me on that one. Did he though ever actually hit someone in the head in his career? I never said he didn't pitch up and in. He obviously had great control, which made it pretty clear there was purpose to it when batters were hit. Although I can't believe he hit Gerald Williams on purpose when he had a no hitter going and he charged the mound. I think Pedro said a lot of things to talk tough. Maybe he did legitimately throw at people's heads instead of just in the vicinity. If so, thankfully he never connected. Or did he? I'm still waiting for an answer to that.

I've answered you half a dozen times.

Yes, he hit guys in the head.  At least 4 I can think of off the top of my head (because I saw them). One as an Expo. Two as a Sox pitcher (one of them was a Yankee, one was a Tiger). One as a Philly. And those are just the ones I saw. He also hit a guy in the back of the neck, has one famous incident where he THREATENED to throw at someone's head (that you forgot) and another where he admits to throwing at a guys head and missing.

Were they intentional? "When I hit a batter, it was 90% intentional". 

I don't have video for you...but then, there isn't video on the net of every HBP he ever threw, either.

Also:

https://www.sbnation.com/2013/2/20/4009048/pedro-martinez-hit-batters-new-helmets-mlb-concussions

In the 2003 American League Championship Series, Red Sox vs. Yankees, Mart?nez threw at Garc?a's head but missed. A bit later, Roger Clemens threw at Manny Ram?rez's head but missed.

That's not speculation, by the way.  That's Pedro admitting it in his book, on twitter, and every time they talk about it on the MLB network.  Keep in mind, this is not the ACTUAL famous drilling in the ribs that's popular all over youtube.  This is the "behind the head, hit the bat" incident.

THIS is why I'm so incredulous about your memory, and you discounting that he threw at, and hit, people in the head.  A couple of these are like "Pedro Highlight reel" moments.

Anyway, I'm done.  I think we've colored your opinion all we need to at this point.

Logic: "Betances did it because I think he did."  We got it.

[JAEBALL]

Pedro also drilled Jeter and Soriano in the hands back to back to start a game once...and admitted he hit them on purpose.

[faldor]

I guess I did forget the pointing at the head. Ok, you got me on that one. Did he though ever actually hit someone in the head in his career? I never said he didn't pitch up and in. He obviously had great control, which made it pretty clear there was purpose to it when batters were hit. Although I can't believe he hit Gerald Williams on purpose when he had a no hitter going and he charged the mound. I think Pedro said a lot of things to talk tough. Maybe he did legitimately throw at people's heads instead of just in the vicinity. If so, thankfully he never connected. Or did he? I'm still waiting for an answer to that.

I've answered you half a dozen times.

Yes, he hit guys in the head.  At least 4 I can think of off the top of my head (because I saw them). One as an Expo. Two as a Sox pitcher (one of them was a Yankee, one was a Tiger). One as a Philly. And those are just the ones I saw. He also hit a guy in the back of the neck, has one famous incident where he THREATENED to throw at someone's head (that you forgot) and another where he admits to throwing at a guys head and missing.

Were they intentional? "When I hit a batter, it was 90% intentional". 

I don't have video for you...but then, there isn't video on the net of every HBP he ever threw, either.

Also:

https://www.sbnation.com/2013/2/20/4009048/pedro-martinez-hit-batters-new-helmets-mlb-concussions

In the 2003 American League Championship Series, Red Sox vs. Yankees, Mart?nez threw at Garc?a's head but missed. A bit later, Roger Clemens threw at Manny Ram?rez's head but missed.

That's not speculation, by the way.  That's Pedro admitting it in his book, on twitter, and every time they talk about it on the MLB network.  Keep in mind, this is not the ACTUAL famous drilling in the ribs that's popular all over youtube.  This is the "behind the head, hit the bat" incident.

THIS is why I'm so incredulous about your memory, and you discounting that he threw at, and hit, people in the head.  A couple of these are like "Pedro Highlight reel" moments.

Anyway, I'm done.  I think we've colored your opinion all we need to at this point.

Logic: "Betances did it because I think he did."  We got it.

Right, which is no different than you thinking that Betances didn't do it on purpose because you didn't think he did. I'm glad we finally established that after going back and forth for weeks. You brought Pedro into this and changed the argument by the way. Crafty work on your part.

[faldor]

Pedro also drilled Jeter and Soriano in the hands back to back to start a game once...and admitted he hit them on purpose.

Yes he did. Again, I never claimed Pedro never hit guys on purpose. I simply do not recall him hitting anyone in the head. Pilferk says it happened though so I guess we have to believe him. I am quite certain that he never hit anyone in the head under similar circumstances to Betances.

Listen, intentional or not Betances should have been thrown out without hesitation and given a token suspension like the rest of the guys. There was too much going on in that game to let anything slide. Did the Tigers pitcher who hit Frazier afterwards get thrown out or suspended? He should have too if he didn't.