Should GnR songs be played?

[ITARocker]

This shows what happens when you almost don't have a history.

... what?

It appears you didn't read a word I wrote or any of my links. Being content in ignorance is not a good thing.

So let's destroy all the monuments in Rome (and everywhere in Europe), because the Roman Empire was an empire built on blood (and slavery too) and monuments were built JUST to prove that. Monuments are there to remind you where do you come from and you know, sometimes they are a piece of art also. It looks like you don't have a culture to understand this. Ask yourself why they didn't destroy those monuments at the time, ask yourself why when u come to Rome you still see the EUR area and the Dux Obelisc and COmmunists didn't destroy that at the time. No, they didn't forget to do that.

Except monuments of Romans were not built with the explicit purpose of whitewashing history. But sure, take them down. They belong in museums anyway, where they can be given proper context.

Also, Roman statues are of people who fought FOR their country, not AGAINST it. 

Yes, monuments are art and reminders of history, I never said otherwise. However you keep ignoring the fact that they are also meant to glorify, which is what's actually relevant to the discussion here.

The EUR and Dux Obelisco are not the same as a statue of Mussolini. Come on, that is just a desperate argument.

Erasing all that you don't like from public view/mind it's called nazism, everyone knows that but usa people nowadays. In Italy we have Lenin, Stalin, Littorio roads and nobody really care cause it's history, good or bad.

Wow, where to even begin with this one? You might want to look up the definition of Naziism... by your definition Christians are Nazis for trying to keep satanist statues off of public lands.

Taking down a statue is not erasing anything. I don't know how many times I have to say this before it sinks in. Monuments are not textbooks. They do not exist to teach history, their primary purpose is to glorify.

You're proud to have roads named after Lenin and Stalin? But yeah, the problem is clearly with American culture here...

Meanwhile some people somewhere in the USA are discussing to remove Colombo's Statues .

... uhh, what? Do you mean Columbus? 

And why the hell should we glorify a guy who orchestrated mass genocide, pillaged and enslaved people? You think that deserves glorification? Not to mention he wasn't even the first to discover the Americas (if you are arrogant enough to say anyone "discovered" a land already inhabited by millions of people. I guess brown people don't count?).

Tell me, did you learn about Columbus from a statue or from your history teacher and textbook?

Very very very naive point of view.

Taking down a statue is 100% erasing history. Look at what ISIS have done in Palmira. Tell me that they had the right to destroy those statues because was their belief that those statues represented something wrong. Tell me.

I'm not proud of  Stalin, but you know if u come to Italy and you see "Stalin road" and you stop me and ask me why the fuck we called a road that way i can answer you " because in the 60's and the 70's some people here in Italy had that same stupid (from a nowadays point of view) belief". It's not about glorification, it's about remembering our mistakes and how we were. And I can explain you why we were that way and your culture would be surely enriched, you know? And probably you won't find my explanations in any textbook. This is how u build up your culture and your point of view on history, thinkin about how we were and how we developed trough the years. Believe a textbook is like believe the bible. It's an act of faith. But if bible is at least "inspired by God (as humans say, obviously, who else)" a textbook is just inspired by a human political point of view. You wanna believe everything you read without any prove? You know we still have Extermination camps and someone still don't believe they ever existed?

You can't, really, you just can't erase anything just because your actual point of view says "this thing is wrong". It's the first step towards nazism, in any case, even with all the good intentions.

USA is a country built on blood "thanks" to people like Colombo (this is his right name, Columbus is the classic retarded americanization...I don't call johnny Winter "Giovanni Inverno"). If u were coeherent you should leave America and give it Back to the Native Americans. But hypocrisy is always easier and more convenient than coherence, right?. Colombo and people like him made your country and this is written in stone. Are you going to tell me that is right to erase his statue cause native americans won't suffer anymore? But do those few native americans ever seen a columbo statue?  or you are just gettin the occasions to erase you're shameful past? Who knows...

You know to erase some lines from a textbook it takes 5 min, to erase monuments it takes a lot of time and public brain washing and this should be something to worry about. But you already are in this phase so you won't get my point, again.

[allwaystired]

"a textbook is just inspired by a human political point of view. You wanna believe everything you read without any prove? You know we still have Extermination camps and someone still don't believe they ever existed?"

No, I'd much prefer to deny all evidence, facts, reason and expert knowledge. Far more healthy that way. Who needs historical facts in this day and age, hey?

I enjoy the repeated "you don't get my point" argument. I think you're the only one that has a clue at this juncture what you're on about.

For the record, the only people that don't believe extermination camps existed are extreme right-wing, nazi nutcases, partial to ludicrous conspiracy theories. Holocaust denial is also a crime in many countries.

[PermissionToLand]

Very very very naive point of view.

Taking down a statue is 100% erasing history. Look at what ISIS have done in Palmira. Tell me that they had the right to destroy those statues because was their belief that those statues represented something wrong. Tell me.

I'm not proud of  Stalin, but you know if u come to Italy and you see "Stalin road" and you stop me and ask me why the fuck we called a road that way i can answer you " because in the 60's and the 70's some people here in Italy had that same stupid (from a nowadays point of view) belief". It's not about glorification, it's about remembering our mistakes and how we were.

So now that ISIS destroyed those statues, the history they represented is lost despite still existing in textbooks and many other forms? Talk about a "very very very naive point of view"... 

What about naming a road after somebody teaches how they made mistakes? NOTHING. Naming things after people only serves one purpose; to honor and glorify them. Naming a street after Hitler does nothing to teach anyone about his atrocities because it's just a fucking name, there is no context to explain who he was or why he was wrong. I cannot believe how far you are going down this incredibly stupid path...

And I can explain you why we were that way and your culture would be surely enriched, you know? And probably you won't find my explanations in any textbook.

Yeah, I don't doubt that. Because your explanations are revisionist nonsense.

Believe a textbook is like believe the bible. It's an act of faith. But if bible is at least "inspired by God (as humans say, obviously, who else)" a textbook is just inspired by a human political point of view. You wanna believe everything you read without any prove? You know we still have Extermination camps and someone still don't believe they ever existed?

 

Jesus Christ, you are proud of your willful ignorance... this is just getting more and more disturbing with every word you type.

No, textbooks do not operate on faith, they operate on EMPIRICALLY PROVEN FACTS. That you can't tell the difference says everything about you.

Textbooks have extensive citations for proof (not "prove"). You might know that if you ever bothered to read one...

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say about concentration camps. Since you are the one arguing that textbooks are not proof of anything, I guess you must be a holocaust denier, because textbooks tell us it was real...

You can't, really, you just can't erase anything just because your actual point of view says "this thing is wrong". It's the first step towards nazism, in any case, even with all the good intentions.

Again, NOTHING IS BEING ERASED. Are you mentally impaired? I've made this very clear, several times now.

USA is a country built on blood "thanks" to people like Colombo (this is his right name, Columbus is the classic retarded americanization...I don't call johnny Winter "Giovanni Inverno"). If u were coeherent you should leave America and give it Back to the Native Americans. But hypocrisy is always easier and more convenient than coherence, right?. Colombo and people like him made your country and this is written in stone.

If you were coherent, you would know how to spell the word "coherent". Oh, the irony...

Tell me, what does the discussion of statues have to do with the rightful ownership of North America? You are making a cheap diversion. And you've failed because your assumption is wrong; I do believe it belongs to the natives.

Are you going to tell me that is right to erase his statue cause native americans won't suffer anymore? But do those few native americans ever seen a columbo statue?  or you are just gettin the occasions to erase you're shameful past? Who knows...

When did I say removing statues would end suffering? Why do you repeatedly put words in my mouth? These desperate assumptions are not helping your case, you know. Why can't you engage with the actual points I am making? It seems that all you can do is argue with a strawman because you know you cannot win an honest debate on this...

It's not just about natives (who surely have seen Columbus statues), but also Americans who see him GLORIFIED in a statue and internalize that he is someone to be admired and emulated. You seem incapable of thinking anything beyond the most surface-level thoughts...

You know to erase some lines from a textbook it takes 5 min, to erase monuments it takes a lot of time and public brain washing and this should be something to worry about. But you already are in this phase so you won't get my point, again.

And this highlights the pinnacle of your utter hypocrisy; you rail against glorifying statues being taken down, but do not make a single peep about attempts to change textbooks by right wingers in Texas.

And how does it take "a lot of time and public brain washing" to take down a statue? They can be taken down overnight. In fact, the fact that statues are subject to the public's approval of them, whereas textbooks are less susceptible to the whims of public opinion because they are written by experts and changes are only made through board approval, is one of the many reasons why we teach children through textbooks, not fucking statues.

Are you quite done making an absolute fool of yourself yet? Dear Lord, you desperately need to go back to school, this has been terribly disturbing an encounter...

[sky dog]

The opinions...key word being OPINIONS....in this thread are more offensive than anything Axl Rose ever wrote. Disgusting. 

[Dr. Blutarsky]

A difference in opinion shouldn't offend anyone. A good debate is a constructive thing.

But when you slam someone personally for having a different opinion,  that's offensive.

[PermissionToLand]

A difference in opinion shouldn't offend anyone. A good debate is a constructive thing.

But when you slam someone personally for having a different opinion,  that's offensive.

When one person makes it clear they aren't engaging in the debate in good faith, they can't cry victim for getting called out on it.

[ITARocker]

A difference in opinion shouldn't offend anyone. A good debate is a constructive thing.

But when you slam someone personally for having a different opinion,  that's offensive.

Naa I don't feel offended, why should I be? I don't know him, I'm not not judgin' him, knowing these are just words on a forum which occupies the 0,00001% of my life...I know how to contextualize things. Maybe he's the greatest guy in the world who knows...But like all the politically correct people, which are obviously denying the bad side of their human nature (getting pissed/angry, over reacting, making bad mistakes, having bad instincts), he's the first who get mad at people who don't agree with him, it's a classic. It was pretty clear i was leading him to the breaking point (actually faster than I thought) and he just proved the things i was saying (but you can see from his last answer he won't get it for a long time, maybe never): if you can't hold a 4-5 messages conversation without being aggressive or "insulting" people, wonder what you can say to a black bro who assaults you or gropes your girlfriend   .
So never say I won't do/ say that, and don't judge people for their words only, peace out.

[allwaystired]

A difference in opinion shouldn't offend anyone. A good debate is a constructive thing.

But when you slam someone personally for having a different opinion,  that's offensive.

Naa I don't feel offended, why should I be? I don't know him, I'm not not judgin' him, knowing these are just words on a forum which occupies the 0,00001% of my life...I know how to contextualize things. Maybe he's the greatest guy in the world who knows...But like all the politically correct people, which are obviously denying the bad side of their human nature (getting pissed/angry, over reacting, making bad mistakes, having bad instincts), he's the first who get mad at people who don't agree with him, it's a classic. It was pretty clear i was leading him to the breaking point (actually faster than I thought) and he just proved the things i was saying (but you can see from his last answer he won't get it for a long time, maybe never): if you can't hold a 4-5 messages conversation without being aggressive or "insulting" people, wonder what you can say to a black bro who assaults you or gropes your girlfriend   .
So never say I won't do/ say that, and don't judge people for their words only, peace out.

People don't "wonder what they can say to a black bro" at all. They know, and most of them don't even think in the racist terms you seem to feel are fine, let alone use them.

[PermissionToLand]

A difference in opinion shouldn't offend anyone. A good debate is a constructive thing.

But when you slam someone personally for having a different opinion,  that's offensive.

Naa I don't feel offended, why should I be? I don't know him, I'm not not judgin' him, knowing these are just words on a forum which occupies the 0,00001% of my life...I know how to contextualize things. Maybe he's the greatest guy in the world who knows...But like all the politically correct people, which are obviously denying the bad side of their human nature (getting pissed/angry, over reacting, making bad mistakes, having bad instincts), he's the first who get mad at people who don't agree with him, it's a classic. It was pretty clear i was leading him to the breaking point (actually faster than I thought) and he just proved the things i was saying (but you can see from his last answer he won't get it for a long time, maybe never): if you can't hold a 4-5 messages conversation without being aggressive or "insulting" people,

When you have no argument, you resort to attacking the character of the other person, as your generalized "politically correct" strawman boogeyman. Just another example of bad faith argument.

Also, even if you were right about me, "leading him to the breaking point" is yet more proof that you were not arguing in good faith but simply trying to get a rise out of the other person, AKA trolling.

Yet more proof as you complain about being insulted while insulting me in the same post. Classic troll gaslighting.

wonder what you can say to a black bro who assaults you or gropes your girlfriend

I would say the same thing I would to anyone doing that "get the fuck out of here, scumbag, or I'm calling the cops"

Your need to bring it to a racial place only proves your own issues with race. That you can't see this after having it pointed out repeatedly by multiple people is distressing...

So never say I won't do/ say that, and don't judge people for their words only, peace out.

So peoples' words do not reflect their views and opinions? Hot take. Professional psychologists would laugh in your face at that claim.

And when you are online, words are all you have to judge anyone by, soo... 

[westcoast_junkie]

My thoughts on this is that OIAM points out something important. Racism is a result of prejudices. Prejudices is a result of lacking knowledge. Lack in knowledge is a result of....well, many things (a fckd school system for example?), but a "small town white boy" can very well suffer from many of those things. I think people with little knowledge is an easy target to extremists.

Anyway, GnR songs should be played. A song written in "character" don't change that. They've never flagged racism.