Here Today... Gone To Hell!

The song uses lines from Salinger's book. Those who know about Salinger know about his absolute refusal to allow permission for anything related to the book to be used. While the actual title of the book might be able to be used, there is no way this song can be released without the approval of Salinger.

Could this be one of the reasons for CD's delay? As we know, its a powerful song, and a polished version will be absolutely amazing. Maybe Axl had hopes for the song to be on CD, but then dropped the idea and is saving it for later. When Axl first went to NY, wasn't there a rumour he was trying to secure rights to the Madagascar quotes? If so, its safe to assume he was also trying to get permission for CITR. Now that it has pretty much been ruled out for CD, he must not have got permission. Unfortunately, this song may never see the light of day.

It is not reason for the delay because the reason for the delay is "axl"

I dont think there is one big specific reason for the album not being out yet. I believe it is a series of reasons, with not securing rights to CITR quotes as being one of those reasons.

Not trying to be an ass, but the main reason would still be Axl.  Its been well-documented and I'm sure the members here don't need a re-hash.  At this point, Axl should move on if its due to unoriginal content in his lyrics.  Would it be right for him to delay CD any further, just so he can use someone else's words in one song?  No, its not right, but it would not be out of the norm for Axl...

It would truly be a let down if CITR isn't on CD, but we'll always have the studio-quality leak which will be enough for me.

CITR is a very powerful song. I think its brilliant how he incorporates Salinger's words into what he is trying to convey. In my opinion, one of Axl's finest moments.

POV, this isn't a bash Axl thread. Find another thread to do that. : ok: I agree. I want a finished version of this song more than any other. It is truly a masterpiece. If Salinger doesn't give permission, it would be a crime. Axl isn't trashing the legacy of CITR, so I see no logical reason for Salinger to deny permission. Hopefully, he at least heard the song before making his decision.

I would be EXTREMELY shocked if this was the case. The song does not quote from the book, it only vaguely refers to themes from it. First of all, there is absolutely no way JD Salinger could prevent GNR from playing this song live. As for it being on the album, I still highly doubt it, but perhaps it could be blocked because of the title. But Axl did say at one point that it wouldn't be on the first record anyway. There are more than enough finished songs (according to Axl) to replace 1 or 2 that can't make it for whatever reasons.

Lastly, JD Salinger is one of the most reclusive people in the world, and even his lawyers could not prevent books from being published that are all about him! Or displaying his mailbox on the cover. (see below) I would be stunned if Salinger has any knowledge of this song at all. The movie Conspiracy Theory shows and mentions the book, as will (I am sure) the upcoming movie about Mark David Chapman called Chapter 27. Lawyers can only do so much.

(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2756/dreamcatcher3wx.png) .... (http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/7225/dreamcatcher28wc.jpg)

Well, maybe the song has a special meaning to him, so he wanted it to be on the first CD. It does quote from the book, or if not, it paraphrases quotes from the book, which still might require some sort of approval on Salinger's part. I will reread the book this week to make sure, but I'm pretty sure he is using some exact quotes. Maybe a member here who has read it recently could back me up on that. But with your name being AxlSalinger, I guess you would know. :hihi:

I dont think the song title itself is the problem. I used to believe that, but someone(dave2k?) pointed out that there is a song in existence called CITR. I dont remember the name of the band.

I didn't at all remember an exact quote from the book; therefore, there shouldn't be a problem.

The only direct reference I noticed refers to a poem in the book (that itself was written by Robert Burns) that has a special meaning for Holden Caulfield.


In the song, Axl refers to that part of the book with "How a body took a body, gave that boy a gun".

Again Axl never said it would not be on the first album,he said CITR was set to be the 3rd single. I dont know why people get this mixed up. Also, about the quote axl uses in the song, what is the exact quote that axl uses? If its not exact then axl can use it

It's a great song and it's a shame they haven't been playing it in concerts.  Would also be a bid shock if it's not on the cd.  Great song. 

To be honest who cares if its not on the  album, that is just one more song that we have not  heard we will get for CD. Since CITR is almost a finished product its good enough for me, but I would only let to slide to the next album if there is a song better than it.

But it deserves to be heard.

I understood the references to the book, but I don't recall any actual quotes... Would you be a dear and cite the quotes with page numbers for us all??

Bingo. Thats the part I was referring to. Obviously Axl paraphrased it instead of using a direct quote. Good detective work Salinger. :beer: When hearing that line in the song, it made me think it was a direct line from the book. They are so close in similarity, thats why I thought it was a direct quote. There is another part of the song that I thought was a line from the book, but maybe I should read it again first. :hihi:

It's a shame Brian May didn't get the chance to play with Axl at Hammersmith, had the song been played then I think it would suggest the song is still in Axls plans if they hadn't of played it then I would guess we wouldn't hear that song on CD and perhaps not even on any album after that.

If this song is banned from being used by Salinger which I don't think is possible I'm glad it leaked, it would be a travesty had never been heard at all.

Unlikely I say. I doubt Salinger has any clue of what goes on in the world. Hes like the biggest recluse ever. Plus he hasnt shown himself to be litigious in the past ... has he?

He has stated he will never allow CITR to be used for anything, but I think he is referring to a movie based on the book, although I am sure a song using parts of the book would fall into that category. But apparently I was wrong in thinking there are any direct quotes from the book, although CITR definitely paraphrases lines from the book. That in and of itself might cause some problems. Not sure though. I am definitely going to read the book again. Anyone here read it recently?

citr is either

a) too complex (in axl's opinion) to be played live before the release of cd, or

b) too much of a big gun (3rd single?) to be "wasted" right now, or

c) not gonna be on chinese democracy (but the promised record after or the record after): which would be quite a sad thing, 'cause "catcher" and "better" are my favourite new gnr tracks

The song isnt using the book as such (aside from the title). IMO its only tie to the book is that its making a highly allusive parallel between Holden and the dude who shot Lennon. GnR could scrap the title and any potential lawsuit would disappear.

Quotes from the book? Not that I remember.

Edit: This thread is totally moot anyway. The only thing we have ever heard from Axl about CITR is that Brian May's parts might not be only the final cut.

Not only is this speculation, but its speculation about something that hasnt even happened. Whats the point?

The point was to try and start a thread that might create some interesting discussion. But since I am wrong, lets go back to the repetitive noob dipshit threads.

they are playing some of the new songs because
- it woud mood down the crowd as they don't know them
- when songs are too long and calm (CITR, TWAT ...) it's risky with the basic audience
- axl and the band just don't want to spoil us with new songs before cd's out

and that comes out of the mouth of band members and such.

I agree, it absolutley needs to be on CD - not future release (if they happen) but on his first CD. All his best songs must be there, and if theres room for the plodding Madagascar, then Catcher must be there - its a gem

madagascar is the best song evah !

When they asked if the song will be on the album on Trunk he seemed very sketchey about it.. he was like ahhh.. ahh we haven't decided yet.. so that makes me think it won't be making the cut and might be why they aren't bothering with it anymore. Just a thought.

I was under the impression that book titles and such, as intellectual properties, are basically free, meaning that GNR might have a song named after a book with no problem. Note that they also alledgedly have the Ayn Rand novel Atlas Shrugged as a title.

That's where Axl has to be careful though...

It goes without saying that the first album has to loaded with Gems, and Big Guns, but I think it would be in Axl's best interest to evenly distribute the gems over the 3 albums so that one album isn't lacking, or one album isn't stealing all the thunder from the other two.

In the Trunk interview, Axl said they were shuffling songs between the albums, so that is essentially the most time consuming task awaiting closure, and then the album(s) will be off for the mastering process... ;)

possibly james...i just read an interview that Axl says there will be a tribute to lennon on the album...i think it was the 99 RS interview...so quite possible for one of the delays is permission for the title of the song...not the whole reason though i don't think...or maybe conflict with the up coming movie about the same theme

They don't need copyright approval to use a few lines from the book in a song. Small quotations are allowed under the "fair use" clause. It could be that the record company insists on a formal agreement to use the quotes so that they're not dragged into a frivolous lawsuit though, so that could be a stumbling block. Book titles aren't copyrightable anyway, so that part isn't a problem.

The quotes in Madagascar are a different story since they're using snippets of other people's recordings, which are a seperate copyright issue and usually have to be "cleared" for use for any commercial purpose. 

please stop the copyright disussion... this is hardly the reason for citr not being played...

I have a completely different theory on that one. I thought they were saving the song to be played with Brain May on stage. Remember he was going to play in London but then decided not to cause he didn't have enough time to rehearse and Brian didn't want to fuck it up?

THEY JUST SAVE THE BEST FOR LAST.

think this theory is not so "strong", for tommy said that citr will definitely not be played during this leg of the tour...

Santa Carla has a song called "the catcher in the rye".

The Ataris' uses the line: "Don't ever tell anyone anything or else you'll wind up missing everybody".  That is fucking close to the original : Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody." And these songs are out there.

Billy Idol also refers to "The catcher in the rye" in his song "We didn't start the fire".

Since Axl doesn't use any exact qoutes there's no way that he's not allowed to publish CITR. There's a lot of other songs alluding to Salingers novel in a much more exact way. I think that your toughts of CITR not being played are wrong, allthough It's a really interesting topic.

Like so many other have said, you don't want to waste all good songs!

when did he say that?

when he signed my citr book along with dizzy and robin... ;)

kool!

I agree. I want a finished version of this song more than any other. It is truly a masterpiece. If Salinger doesn't give permission, it would be a crime. Axl isn't trashing the legacy of CITR, so I see no logical reason for Salinger to deny permission. Hopefully, he at least heard the song before making his decision.

I agree it would be a crime if CITR was not allowed to be released. The thing is, what's wrong with the name Catcher in the rye and the sentences in the song? Does Sallinger have the name Catcher in the rye Copyrighted. I think it would be strange, but I guess if Axl is copying Sallinger's words I guess its plagarism, even if the song is completely genius and beauitiful and is probably, the best thing Axl has done in a while.

James now that youve gotten me thinking about Axl on this song, im realizing again just how genius the new Guns songs are. All of them are fantastic.

  you damn right!!!! :beer:

very interesting james. i to am a fan of this song and whatever is going on behind the scenes....i hope it all gets worked out so we can add this to the album and the north american tour. if for whatever reason it does not get worked out, i hope we can get some answers about this issue as well as numerous others.........by the way, good post and great to read your shit.  :beer: 

For those saying it was set to be the third single, I could have sworn Axl had said to a female fan backstage after the December 2002 MSG show that CITR would be on the third ALBUM, not the third SINGLE.  If I could find that interview/story/whatever I would post it, but don't know where I can find it.

Anyone?

There is no copyright holding up Catcher as fair use allows Axl to create a derivitive work from the existing story. Look up a court case regarding "The Wind Done Gone" (take-off on Gone with the Wind). Not only that, there is very little reference to the book in the song aside from the title and that one line someone else already posted - not enough to bring about a copyright suit.

The reason it's not being played is likely because Brian May isn't around to play it and his parts are remaining. If I recall, it was printed on the setlist for one of the Hammersmith shows but later dropped.

I'm willing to bet it's on the album.

i sure hope so

Such as?

There is substance to this, although I dont htink its true.  Field Of Dreams comes from the Book Shoeless JOe Jackson, in the book J.D. Salinger is the writer who is played int he movie by James Earl Jones.  Salinger threatened suit if his character was portrayed in that movie so Costner and them decided to change a name and choose an actor as far away from Sallinger as possible.

Salinger is reclusive, but not crazy.  Based on my knowledge he doesnt mind so much people writing about him or his works, its when they do so for mindless profit that he gets upset.  He used to grant interviews to highschool students years ago, but when they started getting published in papers he stopped.  I dont think a song referencing his book would make him upset, nor do i think he has heard of the song, nor do i think even if he had and he cared could he do anything to stop it.  Not too mention Axl apparently plans to have 3 cd's come out, so if it was tied up in litigation then he could always bump it to the 2nd cd.  Also the song has been written and recorded on demo for years, they woulda came to some agreement by now if this really was "holding" up the record.

Salinger has sued over matters relating to his name and writing over the years. I think he even sued to stop the release of his daughter's memoirs about him, which did nothing - the book came out anyway.

IMO the reason it hasn't been played is because the first three leaks were deliberate and CITR was not. CITR is from the Trunk tape. The reason the quality is shitty is because somebody didn't do a direct rip, it was recorded through another source. I think Axl planned on leaking IRS, TWAT and Better to help hype the tour and to give him something new to play. It isn't just coincidence that he mentioned Better, TWAT and The Blues in RS - the only three titles mentioned as his favorites - and, lo and behold! A few weeks after the interview (or was it days?) they are both online, along with IRS, which we had already heard - it was basically a throwaway, they knew people had heard it anyway.

CITR was not planned and that's why right after it was leaked management began participating undercover on the forums (mainly here and MyGNR) looking for the leaker. They found him and that's why nothing else has been leaked.

I'm pretty sure the line "the young folks" is a Salinger reference as well although not from CITR.

I'm pretty sure the line "the young folks" is a Salinger reference as well although not from CITR.

(http://www.orlyowl.com/orly4.jpg)

That, however, is a common phrase and not something copyrightable even with America's fucked up copyright system.

Yeah, this is what I was referring to. I am pretty sure this was said to someone after the MSG show, but whether it is true or not is still up in the air.

Perhaps the reason is that Ron Thal never rehearsed it yet

yeah, but that doesn't answer anything; the question is why ron thal and the band didn't rehears it...

I think there are a couple reasons for now CITR yet.  Most notably, I think Axl is keeping the new songs to a minimum.  He gave us 5 new songs back in 2001/02.  He's given us 3 new songs so far this year but TWAT hasn't been played much.  IRS and Better have been played at most of the shows.  Despite the fact that everyone on this board has heard all 4 of the leaked songs they still remain obscure to the masses.  I tell everyone I know about them but only a handful of people have bothered to take a listen.  The non-hardcore fans are just not gonna take the time to find the songs, never mind listen to them.  And I'd estimate about 75% of the people at each show haven't heard any of the new songs going into the show.  So TWAT and CITR still remain unknown by the masses. 

And of course since Brian May plays lead on CITR I'm sure they'd like to debut that song with him playing along.  He was supposed to join them for one show already but didn't have time to rehearse.  I wouldn't be surprised if he hooked up with them next time around the UK and we finally hear the song live.  At least I hope. 

A Reason for no CITR?

er, becuase the song is no good  :hihi: ok so that was slighyl harsh, but, this is one song i would be happy not to see on CD, well atleast not on CD disc 1. CITR sounds like CD disc 3 material.

I bet they leaked Better, TWAT, CITR to get a reaction and decided which of the 3 to put onto CD disc 1, as the disc is filled and they could not have all 3  :peace:

This is something from last years, before the leaks. Take it for what it is, Dizzy's credibility has already been discussed to death here.

"- The epic track ?Catcher in the Rye? will be on Chinese Democracy and is written by Axl based upon the book of the same name and will have a different sound from UYI epics."  -  8th Oct, '05 (http://www.gnrwire.com/?cat=9)

There's nothing in the song that they'd be able to prevent Axl from releasing it, besides perhaps the title itself.  They could change the title and no issue.  The song is mostly about Mark David Chapman, and while it does incorporate some themes from the book it doesn't quote the book directly from what I can remember.  You can't prevent someone from using the title of your book in song lyrics, copyright isn't that strong.  The title of the song itself may be an issue, but if they just changed the title there's nothing within the song itself that couldn't be used

yeah, that song was the weakest of the leaked tracks ;D
i was glad they didn't play it :hihi:

catcher has amazing potential, however, ive listend to it a lot and just cant get into it

You guys must be deaf because Catcher is the song I've listened to the most.  It's a terrific song, the cream of the crop.  If it's not on this album, it will be a terrible loss.

i totally agree, citr is a masterpiece, even if its still a demo or whatnot.  the way axl delivers those lines towards the end still sends shivers down my spine, even after listening too it a thousand times.  it would be a tragedy for this song not to be released for the masses to enjoy

I just don't dig it, my hearings perfectly fine.....it bored the shit of me

Evr hear the saying different strokes for different folks......just not my cup of tea

I think GNR is saving this track for england tour and they gonna play it with Brian May, like in Wembley  : ok:

I doubt it'll be played. That song obviously wasn't intended to be leaked.

wow...sombody actually agrees with me about this song :o

Why do you think the song cannot be released without the approval of Salinger? You can't copyright a title, and unless the lyrics are directly taken from the text, I can't see how approval would be necessary or even relevant to the release of the song.

Because Salinger is a big jerk.

The Copyright business could be the matter with the collage on the intro of Madagascar and not with CITR.


Just matter of taste. Like CITR and the blues are only new songs that are not my cups. :P

EDIT I forgot the tee.  :-[

now you are right.....to a TEE :hihi: horrible i know :P

same here...after waiting so long and having a brand new band i don't wanna here UYI style stuff again :no: ... Better, TWAT, IRS, Maddy, OMG, CD, Rhiad even Silkworms that's where it's at : ok:

yeah its bound to be played at the uk shows, it woulda been played at hammersmith if brian may had time to rehearse with them.
its an amazing song, very beatlesy. but BETTER is the best song leaked so far

Don't like CITR=no taste.

Again, don't be dictatorial, Dickienix. >:(
Would you be happy if I said "Don't like Silkworms = boring"?


Me the same. I love sillyass puns. ;D


You're right that we better wait for the studio version.
Besides it's no biggie if not every song on an album is orgasmic.

However to sound like the old band is not necessarily appealing, like neemo said. if you think about it, UYI didn't exactly sound like afd did they? I'm expecting them to give us something doesn't sound like GNR but is nothing but GNR, in spirit.

Incidentally, it's rather TWAT that sounds closer to UYI than the blues or CITR to me.

You said it Pat!  : ok:

nice....someone who obsesses about asses is telling me i have shitty taste :P

Great big asses and CITR, doesn't get much better than that! :peace:

CITR is a ok song, if definately gets better at the end with the different choruses and such.

I think Axls waiting for the album to be released.  He isn't changing the setlist anytime soon, thats obvious.

i really hate it how everyone here uses the phrase "not to be an asshole..."

huh? ??? did anybody even say that? :-\

What does the rant after Mr. Brownstone on Live Era have anything to do with this?

oh yeah... people say it... all the time here

I dont want CITR on Chinese Democracy. I've heard the demo, its cool.. lets move on.

I don't want a song I've already heard taking up space on that disk.. only 13 tracks.. I want at least half of em to be new.

CITR is good, but its nothing special.

Your mom's special.


I think we are going to hear Catcher In The Rye on the UK tour, featuring non other than Brain May himself.



(I hope.)

that song's more lame than fdr's legs.  keep it off the cd.  it sounds more like it belongs on one of those "am gold of the 70s" cds than anything else.

'CitR' is a gem. I'd assume the reasons it's not been played is like 'TWAT' - it's too complicated, it definitely requires multiple listens to "get". They'll wait until after the album is out and people have a chance to let the song soak in. I agree, though, that I think there's a pretty good chance that we'll hear the song when the band hits England and Brian May shows up...

I completely agree with you, when you say CITR is a gem, although I think if we were destined to hear the song live, we would have by now, Brian May or no Brian May.. :-\

I originally didn't really find any appeal in CITR, but now it's an absolutely extraordinary track in my opinion, whereas the demo version really makes it come across as a disjointed, UYI-era masterpiece, I think the final version will definately be a Queen-style epic : ok:

It's really hard to digest, but trust me once it clicks with you, it's almost as catchy as Better.

I still don't get what is so great about this song... it almost puts me to sleep....  His voice is very consistent through out the song....  Is that bad?  i don't know, but it loses me, then I have to try to get back into it...  Just my observation..

CITR is one of the best songs GN'R has ever released. If you don't "get it" that's your loss. But there is always Motley Crue if you think CITR is too "boring."

Richard, GNR has not released this song.....

If they have, it is more along the lines of a tame "Breakdown," not an "Estranged," "Coma," or "Sweet Child O'Mine" calibur song...

But what do I know..

It's very close to Breakdown in my opinion...definately way poppier than Estranged or Coma... :hihi:

The Na,Na,Na's will grow on you after awhile...they have too ;D

i think the song is boring.  "twat" and "better" grew on me, but this one has not.  i agree it has some catchy parts, but it reminds me too much of something you'd hear on the radio 25 years ago.  call it what you will... maybe i'm not "getting it".  there is a lot more music out there i'd rather listen to... so why waste my time trying to "get" a song that i will probably never have a decent version of?  if they include it on the cd, then i will give it a few more tries.  but until then... no thanks.

personally breakdown, estrabnged and coma are 10xs better than CITR....but different strokes for different folks......the song doesn't do it for me

Sound quality wise, you may have a point, however I still think CITR has the potential to be one of Gn'R's biggest hits if it ever make's it's way on to an album.

I agree axlsmainman.

i've liked it from the start. i totally understand the message axl is giving and man i just love the song, i hope and have a good feeling it will be on CD and if it does i bet itll be one of the best songs on there.

Who knows what music styles or influences will be apparent on the 32 songs that Gn'R are working on, but as far as the back catalogue goes, Id say CITR is easily the most "pop-ish" track we've heard so far...

Definately amongst Don't Cry, or So Fine as a genuine "soft-rock" effort : ok:

Better than So Fine but not nearly as good as Don't Cry...I don't hate CITR i just think it sounds dated but it prolly is...who knows what it sounds like now :-\

there's 2 things i dislike about the CITR. 1.it's too slow and a bit boring and 2.the fx on the vocals sound like an alien is performing the song. I might like the song more if it were just sung without the addition of fx.

a really cool video could help the song out to. Some songs work better when played with pictures, just like movies do for example.

The fact that it probally is dated, makes me question whether it will be on CD or not. But, it did leak very recently so that means it porbally wasnt just an old song and was probally still in question about CD, and i'm sure the final version of this song, will be much improved and totally rock. :yes:

For what its worth - Im a long time fan and CITR was the first of the leaks to click with me. In fact, it was the only one I liked for a while.

This isn't directed just at you Jack so dont take this personal, but if anyone wanted Chinese Democracy to be a surprise when they first get the CD, then they shouldn't have downloaded the songs.

I agree. They played TWAT a couple of times at the beginning of the current tour, but the crowd's reactions were lukewarm... So they stoped playing it. Axl is aware that CITR sounds like a pop song that would thrown the audience. He certainly prefers to wait for the release of CD before playing it live.
Great song, by the way.

Does any of Queen's music ever sound dated?

Sure alot of it is timeless, but when you listen to Queen, you know it's most definately 25+ years old.

Axl said alot of the material on Chinese Democracy was going to sound like Queen, which people may or may not like...and to me CITR is about as Queen influenced as a song can get :hihi:

Structure wise, I doubt very little has been changed from the song except perhaps the re-recording of Brian May's parts, new vocals layed down, and an extended, or tightened up outro.. : ok:

Well if i ever get a chance to buy a new GnR album again I want GnR songs...not Queen songs :P

It's just not my thing...I rather enjoy the musical direction of the other "new" songs Better, IRS, CD, RATB, Maddy, TWAT, SW...the blues and CITR seem to me like they should be B-Sides from the UYI's or something...doesn't mean they suck or anything just means that we've been there done that kinda thing : ok:

it's worth as much as anyone else's opinion :peace:

I dont think there will only be one, specific underlying musical direction on Chinese Democracy.

Sure were going to get our straight ahead rockers, and our Axl epics, but did you really think you'd escape the beauty of Axl's piano ballad, if for only Gn'R album? :hihi:

Sure the Blues and Catcher sound very UYI inspired, but I instead choose to view them as Axl taking that very formula to the next level of song writing : ok:

I understand where you are coming from but why try and perfect something that was nearly perfect anyway? seriously you can't get much better than DC, NR and Estranged? why bother trying? to show you can still do it with out the other guys....c'mon...like i said i don't hate those 2 tunes...just the orig band did it better IMO (In comparison to the blues and CITR) i think they are more on the right track with the other tunes i already mentioned...The masses will definately appreciate the 2 "piano Ballads" more though...personally I think that if there are ballads on the new CD with the new band that they should be more like the new Maddy/TWAT sound and less like the old DC/NR sound

Yep.


Nope. He said SOME of the ARRENGEMENTS were kinda   like Queen.

Axl is building on what he's already accomplished because I feel he doesn't want his career to become what the "Rolling Stones" career for example, has become: release new music, yet there is no music growth, or variation...it all sounds almost the same.

He's perfecting whatever music he's written, and has obviously refused, and will contine to refuse to release any of it until he feels it matches, or excels past that of the strengths and timelessness of the original material.

Sure it's easy to say CITR sound's UYI-ish, but like I said..the song sounds like a UYI song taken to the next level, or at least modernized.

November Rain: "Dont you need sometime....on you're own... ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Catcher:........Na.....Na...Na..Na.Na.Na...Na..Na...Na..Na..Na..Na.NA!

Both songs are equally catchy in my opinion, but I just think the younger generation would find alot more appeal in Catcher, that NR, despite it's obvious timelessness.

Maddy & TWAT are nothing like Catcher, NR, or Dont Cry in my opinion...there more along the lines of an epic like Coma or Estranged...

Another case and point...look at TWAT, that song is highly reminiscent of Estranged, Axl's just added orchestra over it, with a faster guitar player...once again, taken a past formula and either experimenting with it, or merely taking it to the next level : ok:

What's your point?

I was recalling the article to best my memory since it's not in front of my face..

Is it necessary to split hairs?

Alot vs. some, Material vs. arrangements...huge difference of interpretation.. :hihi:

EDIT: Also, it's common knowledge one of Axl's biggest influences has always been cited as Mr. Mercury correct? :)

are you for real? :nervous: at least talk about a part where he actually sings

that's like comparing Steven Tyler's lyrics on Dream On to his "Whack-gak-gak-gak-owww" on Amazing :hihi:

 :rofl:

Haha, man, I was trying to use the most simplistic example.

Comparing those parts of those two songs, melodically, to me at least, both songs are much along the same lines and definately penned by the same man : ok:

EDIT: Let's look at it this way, if you want a slight indication what a musician's forthcoming material might sound like, or what influences it might wear on it's sleeve...you can always look to the past for future reference.

well... there`s a huge difference between "sounding like queen" and "having arrangements similar to queen".... the latter does NOT mean that the songs are very queen influenced, regarding queen`s music`s general sound.


i disagree with you. it`s not "taking a past formula and either experimenting with it, or taking it to the next level", it`s simply making new music that in some way resembles the style the old band had.... of course more modern and complex, with new influences....



again, i disagree. do you think axl sits in his LA mansion and wants to write old gnr songs??

to me, there`s no category to put gnr songs into except for "rocker", "ballad" or a mix of both..... any gnr song fits in its own category IMO. what i want to say is, i don`t see how you`re able to put the blues/citr and twat/maddy in two categorys.... they`re just songs to me....

and i`d wait for the actual studio versions to compare the songs to the old material anyways...

 :rofl:

Yeah, for sure, but in this instance a large part of the songwriting core of the band has been replaced by people who are from differnet musical styles, tastes and backgrounds of music...why would you try and recreate something from those other guys if you are not those guys and that is not your strength?


no definately not WARose But I wouldn't be surprised it CITR and the Blues were written a long time ago, before the Guys knew what direction they wanted to go...like '98-'99 ish...and like AMM said what better way to look forward than to look back first and see where they came from?

Also OMG is in the same vein as WTTJ? I don't think so. All I'm saying is that TWAT and Maddy are definately not Slash guitar influenced tunes...they are a new sound....the New GnR sound....now Blues and CITR, they seem to me to be trying to recapture some past glory...but you can't write a slash song without the man,,,,ya see what I'm trying to say?

You really can't see the difference or what?
Your line would make people think that axl meant the album would sound very much like queen.



I beg to differ.
I don't see particular resemblance to the uyis, let alone B-Sides materials from them, in those 2 songs.
If forced I'd say the garden and CITR have vibes or something in common.

Twat on the other hand does show some resemblance to Estranged.

Oh my...how is that the slightest bit different from what I said? :confused:

"Making new music that resembles the style of the old band, while adding more complex and NEW influences..."

Well to make NEW music that resembles the style of the old band you might have to rely on a past formula or past influences correct?...

To add more modern and complex styles...with NEW influences, you techinically have to experiment with you're past musical approach correct?...and by doing so, theoretically you're taking what originally made you so successful in the first place, i.e. a formula, and taking it to the next level....

Im not sure what you mean here Neemo...

The guys in the band now are all professional musicians correct?

Im sure they are well capable of adapting to change and taking on new influences, i.e. past Gn'R influences.

These guys were originally brought in to help Axl fulfill his artistic vision on this right?

I dont think they'd be there now if they were incapable of playing what Axl wanted them to play or how he wants them to play it.

In any sense though, I really view it as Axl "recreating" anything.

He maybe drawing on past musical output to the extent where the new material sounds reminiscent, but to me, as Ive said, he's taking it to the next level without rewriting what's already written.

Give Axl way more credit than that Neemo...the dude is way to bright and gifted to write music as if he were a one trick pony : ok:


Listen to Breakdown and then Catcher in the Rye ppbebe, if anything I think Breakdown sounds closer to CITR than November Rain.

Guitar riff wise, do you mean The Garden and CITR sound alike? Because if not I dont see the comparison since one is a mid-tempo piano song and the other is a really spaced out, crazy ass song :hihi:

How is that description a musical collaboration? they were brought in to play what they played best...not to write something like the old band made. from what i gather they are there to make a record as a collaborative effort...to take all the different styles they each represent and make it into a melting pot of yummy goodness for our ears. It's not supposed to be what Axl wants them to play it's supposed to be what they all agree to play.

this is all assuming that you have the same opinion as me on those tunes resembling other tunes...but i don't see how you can say that they don't resemble old tunes then compare them to old tunes :hihi: that makes no sense

@ ppbebe to me TWAT is unlike any other GnR tune I know sorrry i can't picture the similarities between it and estranged :-\

i`m pretty confident you`re right about that....  the demo of citr was recorded in 99 when robin rejoined NIN. i can?t remember when the first rolling stone article about CD is from, but it was around 2000 i think. anyways... lots of the new songs we heard were mentioned back then allready, like IRS, TWAT and madagascar (the blues, too if i remember correctly...). i also believe the recently leaked "new" demos of TWAT and IRS are from that time as well...

no. but is there another song you`d put in the same "category" (i`ll never use that word again.. :hihi:) as "oh my god". to me both songs are unique....as any gnr song.  of course the sound of songs like "mr. brownstone" and "it`s so easy" is quite similar, but it has more to do with them being recorded at the same time, instead of them actually really being similar.  i think there`s an interview in which duff mentions how appetite sounds like one style, but it`s actually a melting pot of different influences.


i don`t think axl gets brian may to play on catcher in the rye to make it sound like slash. axl wanted robin in 96 to play lead for gnr when slash was still in the band by the way. so it`s not like he told him to play a slash-like solo on the blues to recapture the lack of slash.

you`re right about the "new gnr sound", but you can`t spell "new gnr" without "gnr, so it`s obvious you`ll find old elements in the new sound. axl wrote estranged in...1990? and catcher in the rye probably in the mid 90ies. it`s just axl?s style and that doesn`t change that fast i guess. look at it as a journey instead of a rehash. axl said in an interview some years ago, that he wants to slowly change the direction of the band and doesn`t want to alienate the old fans with his new music. the illusions were released 15 years ago... we didn`t get much music in between (oh my god...), so i think axl`s decision is a good one.

he did it before with you could be mine i think. he also could`ve released november rain as the first single...

well   you were focusing on the past formula, i was focusing on the new music. at least that the way i understood you`re post... :peace:

edit:

i was probably wrong though : ok:

You're a bit fucked up on your timeline....Matt suggested Robin as a replacement for Gilby i think...Slash Quit October 30, 1996 and Robin Joined mid -1997 and Robin then left in 199 then Brian May came in to record with Axl to replace Robins parts in late 1999 then robin returned in october of 2000...

I'm sure that after Slash left there would be some desire to right a Slash-like song as well as some experimental peices...

Buckethead didn't join the band until 2000 so the IRS/Better/Twat leaks must be from the timeframe of 2000-2004 so before the tour or after...i think that 2002 is safe to say was not a recording year

I even thought it might be, er, so to speak, a sequel to estranged. :hihi:
Listen to the bit about "tiiiiiiiiime". :P


I said "the vibes".
Gitter riff wise, the blues and CITR have something in common. A touch of Queen. :-\

They absolutely are making this record as a collaborative effort, but we all know who has the most power it what goes on it...that's essentially what I was trying to get across by that point.

If Axl wants to record material very reminiscent of the original material, the new guys are more than capable.

Perhaps while Axl's own musical interests, and influences change, he will always draw on what the new guys as you said "are best at" to add even a much richer depth to the body of new material they have been recording.

Unitil we hear the record, it's all speculation anways.. :hihi:


Oh...I got ya know...

Certain parts of Catcher really do sound really spaced out and eerie much alike The Garden.


Now Im gettin' somewhere.. :hihi:

i think i was completely right about my timeline  :hihi:

i read somewhere that axl wanted robin to play lead in gnr way before slash quit the band and he actually joined. and i`m talking about the twat/IRS demos that have only robin on lead guitar. send me a pm if you don`t have those : ok:

so true but this is a great discussion...thanks to you 3, I'm enjoying it alot :yes:

Exactly man.

I only wish alot more discussions in this section could be this civil...

I mean let's face it...we've gone 2 and half pages now without one insult towards eachother... :hihi:

Music is intrepreted by everyone differently...especially Gn'R music since it's so emotional, and complex at times, so it's only natural pretty much everyone will have different opinions on the old vs. new material, while still picking up on a few of the same things : ok:

believe me or not, but i thought the exact same thing. some bans were really helpful i guess :hihi:

it also pisses me off that people use the term "straight ahead rockers" ALL THE TIME here.  that sounds sooooo gay

Ah yeah i hear what you mean now...but only that little run...I mean Axl's vocal patterns and the general Guitar Style are wayy off from UYI GnR..at least to my ears...I agree about the sequel though...totally I've been meaning to listen to TWAT but have the estranged video running. To me, if anything, there are more similarities to Maddy and Rhiad in TWAT way moreso than resemblences to Estranged


See i think that intitially the plan was to make another tradition aguns sounding record, a followup to UYI's, but as the guys started to know each other more and explore their chemistry with each other some things happened and shit changed and from there their very own style popped up...which will form the bulk of the new record(s) but there are a few left over elements from early on...ie The Blues and TWAT


see I'm with ya both here too, which makes me wonder if Brian had a hand in writing the blues too.


But to me this is what a record should strive for...be different yet the same...one of the most beautiful things about Slash...don't matter what he does when you hear him play guitar you know its him...I'd like this GnR to have thier very own style and sound...I wanna be able to (or more i want the general public to) know when they hear a GnR song that Slash is from the past and there are new guys runnin' the show now : ok:

Yeah it is too bad more discussions like this don't pop up...but it makes them that much more sweet when they finally do :yes:

When the CD drops it's gonna be brutal around here :nervous:

I wouldn't deny that. The thing is that apparently Twat, better and IRS or the new songs played live are in the later stage of the writing process than where the leaked CITR was then.
 

Ditto. When no hate is involved, exchanging different views is this great and fruitful even if we don't agree on anything. Like said in "better".
About the pricks maybe we could just ignore them... No we couldn't warose, huh? :hihi:


axl's latest description of the album

I quote myself from an old thread  (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=7af2be3114fd2333caec2f8405b44d7c&topic=24932.0)about the comments above.


For these reasons, I think among the new songs we've heard so far, Better indicates the character of the album (if not of the band) the best.

Perhaps they don't play CITR because like someone mentioned the TWAT reason...it's too complex.  That song has so many layers, it would be hard to duplicate.

Also, Don't Cry's (original) lyrics were oh so cheesy.  Alt. really makes the song better, but if going na na na na is worse than holding one note for 40 seconds, I don't know what to say.

Catcher is a very good, heartfelt song.  A window to Axl's soul.  Songs like this mean more to certain people than others.  And that's fine.  CD will be a smorgasbord, everyone will like something on the album.

And for a personal opinion, I'm not saying it's awful and I'll hate it, but TWAT is junk, IMHO.  The lyrics are great, but musically it stinks.  So does Madagascar.  Whoever said they were in the same vein was correct.  Madagascar is lyrically and musically weak.  The best songs so far are Better, IRS, The Blues.  If the rest of the album is like those songs, I won't mind having those "fillers", so to say....

too complicated to play live?  the band has three guitarists and two keyboardists.  there shouldn't be ANYTHING "too complicated" for them to play!

Vocally.....

 :o.................... :no:

Garry, Garry, Garry Garry...

Have you heard TWAT from May 12th or Madagascar from Budapest, Hungary?....Those versions of those two songs will change your mind..

I dont see how if anything you can say TWAT is musically weak...at the very least, you should be able to experience some kind of amazement or delight while listening to Bucket's solo.. : ok:

Who says that "Catcher In The Rye" is a new song?? It was leaked in 2006 (or in the end of 2005, don't remember))
So maybe it was written in 2000 or earlier with another members...so Axl doesn't want to play it now!

Or CITR hasn't finished yet - maybe Axl and his band try to make the song as so clean as...November Rain? Why not? =)

the difficulty with TWAT is that it seems to me, like it would require precision and if one person fucks up then the song is toast...it can happen it's just gotta be perfect...if there is any doubt then forget about playing it...like i said just what i think...doesn't mean that that is the case.

Garry, seriously Maddy and TWAT are fantastic tunes...maybe you just don't get it...if you don't like them then how can you be a GnR fan...or something ?:P :hihi:

seriously though i love both those tunes far more than I like CITR :peace: And TWAT seems a very complicated peice to me....both lyrically and musically..though admittedly I haven't tried learning the song yet on guitar so i could be way off

okay fine... you have one guy on lead vocals and about six others who can provide background vocals.  you've even got a dude in the back who can fill it all in with sample recordings or background tracks.  if "guns n roses" can't pull off a complex song, then it's a song that probably shouldn't have been written.

All we really know at this point is that Brian May, may or may not appear on the final version... :-\

what are you all about? hmm? obviously they can do it they already have..

Same with estranged...it wasn't played very much for a single now was it? if they have any doubts they don't do it simple


and it may or may not appear on CD

I dont think it will appear on CD.

Musically, and lyrically it sounds the most unlike the other leaked tracks we've heard so far...

Even The Blues sounds newer than Catcher, but then again Im just guessing on that.

Wasn't there a rumor floating around, or maybe it came from straight from Axl, that supposedly the song "wont appear until Chinese Democracy's successor, or more specifically, the "third album"... :-\

Well, Buckethead's solo comes across as un-natural to me.

Madagascar- I won't be told anymore: OK Axl, we won' tell you anymore.  (then that Ahhhhhhhh scream)  The song doesn't have much to offer...it's more like a history lesson.

I pray to God that this much heralded song (we've been talking about it for years) a song with such an epic name can live up to it's expectations.  Maybe we expected too much from that name?

We all talk about how the demo's will be so much more different than the final product, but from the sound of the boots, they sound just about the same.  :-\

You know.. that is true.  >:(. "But sttttiiilllllllllll....." ( :hihi:) haha. Im just saying, I hope Axl realizes that alot of the songs have been heard and makes changes accordingly. CITR doesn't sound like its going to be on the album anyways... based off the fact he hasn't played it.. and how he spoke about it on Trunk's interview.


Yeah thats it Nixon, if people don't think the song is super good then yeah, they must not have any taste, be rednecks, and only listen to Motley Crue. Yep. Good observation. Makes you look credible pal.

CITR is a good song. I just don't think its that great.

 
Yeah good point Garry... kinda worrys me...

We shall see.

Yup. Glad to you agree with me.

citr is simply a masterpiece: i'm dying to hear the studio version and a live version after the release of cd... it's such an emotional, intense song with so many cool hooks and mellow parts ("when all is said and done", "if i thought that i was cracy, well i guess i'd have more fun"..."ooohh catcher in the rye again"... "it's just another daaay like today"... "so now you've set the wheels in motion... heart are memories..." etc.)

really love it... you can hear that axl is really influenced by the best sides of queen and early elton john... by the way: the song almost sounds like the soundtrack to a movie or the intro to a tv series (it's a very visual song)...

peter tosh or some reggae......first came across my mind. :peace:

Are you serious? Where do you hear that?

When did Axl talk about which song is going to be a single? Which song is going to be the first single than?

Where: Hyde hyper room at ppbebes

When: 2006/02/25  22:22:12~22:22:22

We're still on citr, yes? I caught a reggae-like flavour in the leek.  :smoking:

Interesting. I am a Peter Tosh fan, and I didn't pick up on the influence.

ppbebe are you refering to the rhythm guitar as the reggae sound? I dunno that's about all I'd consider but I'm not any type of reggae fan so aside from the general reggae guitar sound I don't know much about that style of music. I even it might be the poor quality of recording that is giving it that kinda sound.

anyway maybe that's why i don't care for the track :hihi:

Great. Can you Pass  some links to stand up for your right, equal rights etc to our dear ol Neemo?

I?m not sure about the influence. I just said Peter Tosh off the top of my head but I scent a note of somewhat Caribbean running through this song along with other factors like the strawberry fields or jesus christ super star (a rock opera).
Imagine the song with a Steel band.

You know D'yer Mak'er by led Zeppelin. how d'yer pronounce the title?  :hihi:

"JAMAICA" :hihi:

The CITR we've heard is from 1998 or 1999.  We know this because that's when Brian May laid his guitar down on it