Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Let's start with the paradox
a famous one

The Epicurean paradox is a famous argument against the existence of an all-powerful and providential God. The paradox is quoted as this:

"God either wants
 to eliminate bad things and cannot,
or can but does not want to,
or neither wishes to nor can,
or both wants to and can.

If he wants to and cannot, he is weak -- and this does not apply to god.
If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful -- which is equally foreign to god's nature.
If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful and so not a god.
If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from?

Or why does he not eliminate them?"--Epicurus

let's talk about that :) and then we can discuss other paradox you invent or famous ones  ;D

Is God does exist, all he did was put us here.  The rest is up to us.

are you talking about a GOD in the terms of " all powerfull and super very nice" god ?
but the paradox is that, if he is omnipotent (one of is characteristic) he sees us suffering, why doesn't he stop this suffering?
he is perfect sense of goodness cannot tolerate him testing us or letting us deal with our suffering?

He chooses not to end our suffering because the greatest gift he gave you was free will, and freedom of choice.

He therefore chooses not to end you're suffering probably because it was through you're own choices that you began too suffer, and only you're decision to end the suffering, will ever in fact truly end it.

God will never intervene in our lives, no matter how complex or trying the situations we are faced with may be...

He wants us to think and care for ourselves, while loving thy neighbor :)

About the same as what AxlsMainMan said, plus the fact that us mere mortals wouldn't understand his plan whatever it is...

so letting someone struggle with difficulties while you have the power to help is tolerated by the concept of "perfect goodness" ?

would a father let his daughter being raped in front of him if *she* got herself in trouble ?

i'm just trying to understand some point of views ...

A large majority of the world's population surely suffers on a daily basis, so is God supposed to help everyone who is feelin' blue, or down on their luck?

If the girl being raped "got herself into trouble", dont you see a slight chance of her getting herself into trouble yet again?

What I mean by that is that past trends have a habit of repeating themselves, so why would God help someone see the error of their ways, only for them to do it again.. :-\

If God taught you, and told you everything you'd need to know in life, the world would quite a boring place would it not?

& I much rather learn from my own mistakes, then learn even from a higher power who does not walk in my shoes.

Everyone was put here for a reason, it's just a matter of time before you find out what you're own reason for being here with us today was.

so God is not perfect goodness.
because pure goodness could not restrain from helping someone in difficluty?

i see what you think, i see how it applies to a "man's mind" but aren't we projecting "our" views and concept INTO God's concept ... isnt that afterall ... arent all these gods TOO humans ...

see how the ancient greek gods shared human traits and personalities, reactions and feelings ...


take any religion, what is the point of a young girl born in africa, who suffers from birth to her death (around 5 years old, being raped and killed by 20 men) ... i dont understand the plan behidn that ? or am is supposed not to understand ... ?

God will always be interpreted a thousand different ways by anyone who has faith, so no I dont view it as "projecting OUR views into God's concept" since it is our own person collection of beliefs that compose this "God" in our thoughs and prayer.

It's just fucking ironic that over in the Middle East, the conflict always originates from religion.

I mean, even if everyone who composed the world's population were to read the Bible, it would be ridiculous to think that they are all going to take away from it's teachings, the exact same principles and concepts.

yeah, you kinda right.
but religion is not the source in my opinion. the issues, all over the world, middle east or not, are classic issues related to our nature.

You dont think our own personal beliefs, religious or not aren't apparent in our nature, or our day to day routines?

You might have a point in regards to the world outside of the Middle East, but over there, religion is supreme, and obviously worth dying for...just see kamikazee pilots, or carbombings for further details.. :peace:

that only covers bad things done by humans, what about suffering that doesnt occur from humans? like natural disasters?

They are clearly not soul building nor necessary? Why does God allow them?

yes our religious believes, religion in extenso, are just a written-down map of our nature.
we created our gods, beliefs and such from our inner nature and inter dependencies.

therefore god does not exist, or not in the religious/biblical sense of the term.

yes religion is a huge part of the middle east. they just didnt replace it with money and sex yet.

no invisible hand.
if there is a god he just created earth, humans, space, rules and disapeared.
therefore there is no god.
the only way there can be a god (or more) is if it's not the almighty/pure-goodness religious god.

so tecniqually your statement of "therefore there is no god" is fallacious. it should be if there is a God, then He can't be all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good.

I don't know anything about God. ?All I know is we're here and pain and suffering are just another set of realities that we have to accept. ?There's no point in questioning them because it won't get us anywhere - the world is wonderful but it's not perfect, just like life.

Ive often read theories that describe these "natural" disasters are in fact pre-determined by a higher power, be it God or not, because the world's population is rapidly escalating on a daily basis even at such an astronomical increment, that there simply isn't enough food, or natural resources to support all these people, therefore "natural" disasters must occur to kill off a few hundred to a few thousand people every few weeks.

It's a very far out there theory, but I am inclined to believe it is very much accurate.

its all so confusing and hard to understand,i think this life that we deal with everyday is part of the punishment for sin. jmo. its hard for me to put into words.

not that i agree with that (i think it proves God as not all-loving. the amount of devastation is unnecessary for an omnipotent being) but what happens with things like the Holocaust?

Whilst it is man-made it doesnt simply come under free-will as it took the coercion of millions to follow through. It is not character building (so the original free will argument goes out the window) it is clearly unnecessarily cruel (God not loving) so therefore God can't stop it. Following Epicurus this means He isnt omnipotent.

i dont follow you

hollocaust is derived from free will ... just a composition of inter dependant freewills.

the idea of the cult of hitler means that most of the country was co-erced into the position. in their minds they were doing what they wanted but were only free to do as they were told.

yeah, but if you go down to local minds, and also at the begining of the issue

it always start will local, simple free will choice

" hi i'm hitler, what's going on? "
" i'm good, how r u ? "
" good, i hate jews, you too ? "
" yeah, lets go talk to that guy over there ... "

 down > top

thats too simple. if it was continually one-on-one then you'd have a point, but the sheer volume of people involved means that they were subconscioulsy pressured into accepting nazi values.

your point also doenst deal with anything in the middle or the end. it doesnt necessarily follow that simply because you start something (the nazi party) that its going to take off.

the sheer of people grows with time

but locally the inter-action between the actors have a huge effect.
in every organisation, the simple link and power-relation between an actor and another structures the global output.

yes, the number growing, it is hard to define how 1 link, 1 relation can have an impact, but it does.

there might not be a nazi party, but there at sometime starting points.
(theorically, there must be a UNIQUE starting point, cause 2 events cannot happen at the same time in some theories in our dimension ...)

not that i want to try to prove that a god exists or not,

maybe gods lifespan has...ceased

maybe youve put god on a far higher pedestal than maybe he should be on...maybe god created the universe but does now no longer have the ability to change it in any significant way...you assume he would have the power to do anything when that may not be necessarily so...if mighty power is seen by those that do not understand it then it will always be interpreted as godlike behaviour...therefore the paradox is too simple

Zarathustra? Is that you?

the paradox is too simple because we don't understand it ....



(man i think my brain just snapped ...)

uhhh yea sure that me ...ehhh youve read ma book?


i was just trying to...take things out of a 2 dimensional plain...i thought my points were valid...what dont you understand about the paradox? do you think it impossible for humans to deal with more than 2 variables?

well ... you know .... what you said .... talked about .... a power that has no power .... anymore .... on earth and stuff ... so it does not apply to .... the paradox .... anymore .... you know .... the paradox .... apply to the classical religious god .... you know .... omnipotent .... almighty .... all good .... voil? .... ;D

Pressured?

Subconciously?

C'mon just face the fact that a significant number of Germans embraced considerable chunks of Nazi ideology - there propoganda was damn good, but they were pushing on an unlocked door, European society was saturated with nationalist and anti semitic sentiment

German support for the Nazi's wasn't some magic spell and nor was it purely obedience from terror

And attitudes in the 30's and 40's were so corrupt that with similiar socio economic conditions he could have taken over just about anywhere

PC attitudes have history altered so it was a handful of maniacs enslaving a peace loving, jew loving society - thats not what happened

That overcomplicates things

If God knows all and sees all then he knows who will sin before they have even been created

Therefore creating Hitler was a pre-meditated excercise - God knew what would happen and created him anyway

God also knew who the good lot were going to be

So therefore - what would then be the purpose of creating people - a sinner was always going to be a sinner and had no chance of altering that!

Religion makes no sense other than as a tool to excercise control over others

i think the definition of God limits to almighty and allgood. no seeing the future. ?

Do you not believe in free will all of a sudden? :-\

No - i dont believe in a god (other than Robbie Fowler ;))

We have full control of our lives within the confines of our physical/economic environment. If you rob a bank that was ur choice (or the consequence of some strange tropical disease :hihi:)

Henry scored because he applied the right amount of power and swerve - not because God wanted it ::)

(ps. though maybe the Korean betting agency that had paid the ref wanted it too....)

changing the rules again are you? :P


was it your choice to be born?

The problem of course with this argument is that we are human and unable to escape the nutshell of being human. Much in the same way I suppose that a seagull can never be...say, a sea urchin. Meaning that the poor bird is fundamentally limited to the nature of its existence. It HAS to be what it is.

Therefore, anything that we are capable of conceiving as individuals or as a species - in this case, an argument for the existence of God as a concept - is fundamentally confined to the boundary of our existential nutshell. The very nature of which dictates that we are incapable of true empathy regarding a being such as "God", and what this "God" is supposed to be - a "higher" being than us.

Mustard seeds, His image and getting stoned with a whore...sounds like fun! Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!