Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Well - not a great day for the world with the lunatics in North Korea now equipped with nukes

Even those paying a cursory amout of attention to world affairs realised it was North Korea and not Iraq we needed to have inavded

In a truly delicious slice of irony - we cant even use sanctions againt North Korea as only humanitarian aid gets there anyway

Not sure whats to be done now - Korea is desperate enough to use these weapons and stupid enough to sell them. With China backing them even military operations would be risky

I'm assuming our glorious leaders will, in true Team America style, tell North Korea how angry they are, and if that doesn't work write them a letter in which they express how angry they are....

....and Iran will be nulcear soon too.  By invading Iraq, the other two countries in the "axis" shit their pants and thought they'd be next.  While both countries are led by nut jobs, they weren't trying to go nuclear.  How ironic that the country we invade b/c our "intelligence" says they have WMD had nothing at all - and while distracted there, the real threats had time to build up their nuke programs.   More so then the failed war in Iraq, letting N. korea and eventually Iran go nuclear will be the true failure of the bush administration.  can November get here any faster?   :-\

Haha I watched Team America this morning in tribute. ?Seriously though, I don't think Kim Jong is crazy enough to actually use one in an offensive strike. ?He's more of an attention freak. ?Like LOOK AT ME LOOK WHAT I CAN DO. ?How much you wanna bet Iran tests one in the next 6 months?

China didn't want N-Korea to have nuclear weapons, they wanted to keep Korea (both of them) nuclear free area, so who knows what happens now but I do think anything good is not going to happen..

well the immediate concern for the region is an arms build up for Japan, S. Korea, China in terms of getting nukes themselves.  More nukes is never a good thing.

I think its inevitable that a nuke will be detonated somwhere in the world within the next decade or so, its just going to be too easy to get one as more and more countries develop nuclear weapons programs.

I am sure that will be the line from the left - we shouldn't have invaded Iraq, we should have invaded North Korea.  While I tend to agree in hindsight, I am skeptical that anyone on the left would have been for invading North Korea regardless of the circumstances.  Of course, it doesn't surprise me that this will somehow get blamed on Bush and Iraq.  Everything does.

who said anything about invading?  my point was the real threat was not iraq (do you still think it was??).  Invading a country was how Iran/N. Korea were able to build their nukes in the first place.  please don't put words in my mouth.

Typical of bush loyalists - don't blame bush!  So who should be blamed?  I suppose this is Clinton's fault right?  ::)  I guess katrina, iraq and all of our other problems shouldn't be blamed on bush either?!?!?

Dude HannahHat it's a losing arguement.  Bush loyalists have an amazing ability to just forget about such things as the "great WMD witch-hunt of '04" and the awesome intel that turned out to be a crockery of shiite. 

Anyone with a passing knowledge of geography (China) and world politics (China) knows that an invasion of NK was and is completely out of the question whether they are right, left or center politically.

And how will Speaker Polisi solve this problem..... Ive  been waiting for a reply on just how the democrats think there gunna fix this one...... but we hear nothing because cut and run will just continue to keep em out of power and hold all of you to a bunch of ranting, crying, pusillanimous babies. This kind of pap used to get on my nerves but im just so glad that the pap spewing is what u've been reduced to thanks to the old ballot box. The base of liberalism doesent win elections hadent since 76 and will never especially after 9/11

Ok back to the topic at hand. I seem to recall when Bush named North Korea a member of the Axis of Evil the left went nuts, fearing he might make the world see KJI for what he is, a delusional tyrant. Think about it there are more American flags in that nation than most parts of the USA. Why is that u wonder? Because the humanitarian food we give the starving people of that nation comes in sacks with american flags on them. KJI is a sick bastard he lets his own people starve so he can spend his money on weaponry to boost his ego. It is a truly sick and rancid situation.

What should we do? Honestly I dont know; but one thing is certain.... leaving it alone and sending over our sec of state to eat dog with KJI dosent do the trick Albright already saw that come to light.

If i were president I would double the number of troops in South Korea just to put him on edge and know we do have the balls to invade his shithole. If we do invade I would rather topple the regime, and destroy all weaponry and facilitys that might be used to produce such arms. I would have no intrest in staying and nation building, because all we need to do is continue the food after all people's situation cant get much worse.

Also dont even think of sugesting that the US Army cant take this on to do so would be the underestimation to end em all. I am proud to have served in the force and promise that this is the most magnifacent group of armed gentlemen since the Armys of Alexander

Funny how you say "i wonder how the dems will fix this problem".  Who caused the problem in the first place?!?! haha  Shouldn't that be your main concern rather then "well what are the dems saying we should do!!!" 

As for KJI, yeah, hes a dirtbag, so was sadamm, so is the nut job in Iran.  Chavez is an asshole too.  The barbarians in Darful are bad too.  LETS GO KILL EM ALL!! YEEEEHAAAAWWWW.  oh wait, there is no oil in Darfur.  China has a pretty bad record for human rights too.  You know, Bush's pals in Saudi Arabia are jerks too, they don't exactly treat women that great you know, why don't we go invade them too...oh wait.  nevermind.   they are our "allies" remember??

I'm proud of our armed forces too.  but to say we are prepared for ANOTHER war is just not realistic.  we don't even have the man power/equipment that is needed in iraq/afghanistan.  when the troops are digging up scrap metal and plywood to armor their humvees its time to re-evaluate things.

Seriously, how long can the robots on the Republican right in the US use the argument that the far left liberal commies, otherwise known as the center right Democratic party to the rest of the world, don't have any answers or would be worse. The Republicans have totally controlled the US government for 6 years - the mess is their fault, that's how it works. Even Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Coulter etc know that while the laugh all the way to the bank with your dollars.

well, its not a TOTAL failure.  I mean,  THANK GOD the gays can't marry!!  Can you imagine the state of the world if THAT were allowed to happen!!??!  I'll take a nuclear winter over two guys i don't even know doing whatever they want behind closed doors ANY day!!   :rofl:

p.s. that was 100% sarcastic for those that can't read between the lines

Is there nothing that the Bush Foreign Policy can?t do? This man is an absolute saint, I mean SAINT. First he deftly negotiated North Korea into not test launching their medium range missile and now he was able to, single handedly I might add, stop L?il Kim from testing a nuc-qu-lar bomb. It was amazing how, with all of his built up credibility in world politics that he was able to just ask and it was done. That is what we have needed in a leader.

Just imagine if he had gone of half cocked in some other part of the world without the worlds approval or help, on a half baked mission filled with half truths and no plans. Why he may not have been taken seriously when he put his foot down this time when it really, REALLY mattered.

You just gotta hope that the crack Homeland Security Department, with Heck of a Job Chertoff manages to check the right 3% of container?s on ships that come from the Pacific Rim over the next year or so. It would be a shame if Homeland Security was still searching 80 year old women at airports at that time.

This nation is about to choose whether it wants to go deeper and deeper into the dark pit of fascism or reclaim who we really are: the most unique experiment in self government and freedom in human history, free men and women who live without being coerced by fear. If the Republicans win this November, then the fascist wing of the Republican Party, religious fascists, corporate fascists and militarists will take it as a signal to continue their campaign to end the great American experiment so they can enjoy the benefits of a two-class state. The Military-Industrial Murder Machine will do everything in its power to make that happen.

Iraq is a coward's war - an attack on a prostrate nation, while the real war remains unfought. You guys fight war like playground bullies. Time for you all to go home and let the grown ups take over.

How many nuclear weapons tests did the US carry out, I herad today around 150 in the pacific.

Japan, they had a H-bomb dropped on them, I wonder who done that?

Whats your point? 

I'm assuming that you think its OK that N. Korea has nukes? Or that why does the US (and the rest of the sane world for that matter) think its bad?  Ok, I'll humor you.

Japan wasn't exactly not asking for a world of hurt when they attacked Pearl Harbor.  Its not like the US got bored one day and decided to drop a couple of bombs....I really can't say more about that comment without making you look like a total moron.

I'm not even gonna try, I just gonna say that no one should have nuclear weapons not North Korea, and not the US.

So what if they have the bomb? I can see why they would, as that's insurance against a US invasion. Why should the US dictate who has the bomb and who doesn't? Israel, India and Pakistan all have the bomb.

At least someone here is sane.

The nuclear program in North Korea started long before the invasion of Iraq.  It wasn't that that led to it at all.

 ::)

I mean...wow

When North Korea sells a few to the local Al Quaeda cell and City X is redecorated in radiative green i hope you live just long enough to understand the significance of this day

I am not being racist, but Americans can't seem to see the truth.

In all honesty, how likely that really is?
If you really want to start playing with various Tom Clancy-insipired scenarios, isn't it more likely that a terrorist cell aquires a nuke from Pakistan, or even via some ex-Soviet union entity?
Why would one of the most paranoid, isolated, militaristic and threatened governments in world  opt to SELL their arsenal?

it certainly accelerated it.  The war in iraq also distracted the US from making sure Iran and Korea didn't do exactly what both countries did - develop nuclear weapons programs.  The neo-cons thought Iraq would be over in a few months and it would be a smashing success and before the last troop was even home there would be flag thumping speeches about bringing democracy to the poor people of N. Korea....  But nothing went as planned (maybe b/c  they didn't actually have a plan??) so here we are now just a few years later - iraq is a mess, afghanistan isn't secure, osama is still hiding in caves and the north koreans and soon iran will have nukes.  But I guess we shouldn't blame anyone right?  ::)

This is EXACTLY why the the world should "dictate" who has the bomb and who doesn't.  Dictate is a strong word, but lets face it, the world is less safe now that they have one.  I'd be shitting my pants if i lived in south korea or Japan.  North Korea HATES the US (more then the average person in the world that is).  They'd be happy to sell to a terrorist cell.  I'm sure they've already gotten calls.

EDIT - and its not just the US condemning this...try the entire rational world.  Like I said, i think the neighboring countries are even more concerned about this then the US.

Please, enlighten us dim witted Americans to what "the truth" is?  And I didn't know american was a race.

Let me ask this question, Iraq what was that all about?

"Grr, those fucking yankees. I hate them more than average person, thus I am willing to gamble with my life and  the existance of my own country by selling a Nuke to terrorists of whom i don't give a fuck.  All this in hopes  of causing some good ol massive but very local damage to some random American-infested location somewhere. That'll teach em!"

I just don't buy that.
Sure it is POSSIBLE and a scary scenario  but likely? Come on.
Again, WHY woudl they bother?Just out of pleasure of having a change of seeing a hunred thousand people they don't care about dying or whhat?

kinda like flying planes into buildings??? 

Iraq thought they could take on the coalition in 92 after invading Kuwait, Al Quada and the Taliban thought they could beat us when we went to afghanistan after 9-11......You think Kim Jong is any saner then those guys?

Until you live outside the US, you don't live in the real world?

If you think Iraq was ALL Americans, you have a serious wake up call my friend. 

But tell me the truth about nukes...can't wait to hear this.

Any country ran by relgious nutters, shouldn't have weapons?

you keep answering my question with a question of your own...interesting.

But i'll play along.  Unlike N. Korea, the US has this thing called a democracy.  Ever hear of that?  You see, every now and then, we have this thing called an "election" where people (even women!!) can vote for who they want to run their country.  So the "religious nutters" shouldn't be in control for too much longer (I hope). 

Unlike your man Kim Jong who is leader for life.

See the difference?

Whether he's sane or not, he's a survivor, he isn't going to waste all his years in power by giving a nuke to a terrorist group.

Analogies with Iraq in '92 don't really hold water since Hussein was a US ally at the time and rightly or wrongly had inferred that the US wouldn't intervene if he invaded Kuwait, and (another survivor) he probably had a lot more years in power from fighting it out, than if he'd shown internal weakness and withdrawn at that point.

I'm pretty sure Al Qaeda thinks they are winning, and they're probably correct and they aren't a nation state so that analogy doesn't really hold either.

I don't think the Taliban thought they could win, yet somehow thay have anyway if Frist's comment of last week is anything to go by - he wants to bring them back into the Afghan government.

Wasn't their enternal ruler or part not elected by the people, and any way N. Korea is it any wonder, they have weapons, when Americas always making silly cmments about spreading democracy.

You people think just because you've got better weapons and more weapons than everybodyelse that you do whatever you want, you're trying to start WW3.

BLASPHEMY......DAMN THAT SUFFRAGE MOVEMENT

IMO It's not a good idea to start comparing suicide bombers and fundies on Jihad and leaders of sovereign(yet utterly fucked up) governments.
Entirely different interests,motives responsibilities,  rulesets and whatnot. Come on.They don't even play the same game, so to speak.

Iraq certainly didn't think it could "take on the coalition" If Hussein had believed the US&co would react on the scale they did, they wouldn't have invaded Kuwait in the first place. Hussein hoped, and was lead to believe he'd  survive with frowns when it comes to reactions of post cold war west.
American ambassador Glaspie to Hussein slightly before Iraq's invasion of Kuwait:"We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait."

Maybe there is too much fear mongering going on in USA?
So many seem to think that everyone who fears/hates USA is out there with this mad dog "I want to see em all DEAD no matter the cost!!" - attitude. ???

If North Korea really wanted war and thought they'd be able to "take USA" in some sort of all out offensive conflict, why on earth have they waited all this time? They've had enough conventional and very powerfull altirillerity to vaporize Soul and most of US bases in Korea for several decades now?

They shouldnt be testing them. Its against all the treaties and laws made in the world. and id rather not have a even more polluted planet.

i dont like them building them, i find them to be a threat. Unless i can truly be insured they wont suddenly launche one and start world war 3, i think something needs to be done.

I don't think for a second Hussein thought we wouldn't attack if Kuwait was invaded.  He knew a war was coming and he thought he could beat us.  At the time Iraq's army was huge.  he simply under estimated our air power.  You are 100% right that he was a survivor, and yet he still started a war knowing we'd bring the pain.

I was also referring to post 9-11 afghanistan, not post Iraq.  We pretty much attacked and took the Taliban out of power.  Afghanistan was the HQ of osama and al queda.  they thought they would defeat us the same way they defeated the russians.  it was their plan to make us bring the fight to them. again, they under estimated our fighthing force.  however, they got the fight they wanted in iraq.  that war is now interfering with the fighthing in afghanistan as our resources are stretched now.

i would agree though, the US is def not winning the war right now.

If Kim Jong is a true survivor, he would not have developed a nuclear weapons program (the same way sadamm didn't).  War in iraq or not, the world will not be happy about this and I hope a message is sent.

Can't we all just agree on love, peace, and no weapons?

Talking out your ass now.

And your an authority how.

Oh you kick the us in the balls with your comments now with your love peace post we are to just go quietly into the night. I think not.

American?

Don't let that bother you - this is a good thread, dont' let him turn it into a "the US sucks" thread and get it locked.  Anyone with a brain knows that is just nonsense he is spewing anyways.

I didn't say the US sucks, I spend alot of time watching US Tv shows, and drinking Coke.

My original point was supposed to be why does it have to mean war?

You are correct. Point taken

I think it is a very sad day that N. Korea has nukes. And I'm sure Iran is not to far behind. Regardless of which country or point of view on politics it is a bad situation. People can blame who ever or whatever but it will not change things.

The more countries that have nukes just raises the chances that someday sooner than later one being detonated.

Or when the US sells weapons to Iraq (in the 80s) or Israel (presently) which are used to kill innocent civilians.

It does not mean war it just means a rogue state with a nuke that has a dictator that is crazy enough to use it that is all or sell one on the black market to another country or group that will use it.

There are terrorist all over the world that would love to get there hands on that material, if they already haven't. I personally think europe is no safer than the us. Just look at the past year or so. ?

I'm an american I a feel perfectly safe with china and russia having nukes becuase they would never do something becuase they know it would only hurt them also, but these other crazy places with extreme politics or religions now they would not even think twice of killing anyone.

Some people just get jumpy, when they know what the US can do.

I agree about the fear mongering.  What I was trying to say initially was that the real threats, north korea and iran, have had time to build up their programs b/c of iraq (which wasn't really a threat to anyone).  So now that they have successfully tested, its just alarming to know that now there is a REAL threat out there and we are too deep into Iraq to do much about it if we had to.  we also have no rep left in the world which is really crucial if we ask the world to rally behind us.  its just a huge mess with potentially deadly serious repurcussions.  I fully expect the Reps to use this to their advantage and bang the fear drums some more, especially to take the spotlight off the Foley case. While americans LOVE a good sex scandal, we are big scaredy cats at heart and love having the shit scared out of us...reps are REALLY good at doing that too!  :hihi:

A nation doesn't invade another unless they feel achieved gain is far  greater than the cost of the war. Hussein would not have attacked if they had believed they have to face ground forces and "full out" military operation by  US&Co.  I have never heard anythign that would suggest otherwise?

Nuclear weapons have done wonders when it comes to stabilizing relations ever since WWII.It's true that North Korea is a country like no other and them having Nukes blows.
Yet, their politics have been all about surviving and leeching west for decades. They are very ready for total war if they feel USA/South Korea/anyone else is directly threatening their existance but ehhh. Do they have any delusions of uniting Koreas via military force anymore?
I just can't imagine any mushroom clouds rising cause of this.

A logical statment.

I guess we will agree to disagree on this point. There seems to be a lot of (maybe circumstantial) evidence that the US ambassador to Iraq at the time, April Glassby, passed on a message to Iraq that the US wouldn't intervene in regional disputes - and the invasion was because of a regional oil dispute.


I don't know how you can definitively say what AQ expected to happen, but I'm sure they are delighted by how things have turned out. And AQ and the Taleban aren't one and the same, it's far from clear that they knew 9/11 would happen - and don't forget that TT offered to deport Bin Laden to a third country and also to try him under Sharia law. Bluffs maybe, but it was said. And in the end, the US/NATO has by no means won, it's pretty much a stalemate in Afghanistan right now with a significant majority of the population prepared to support TT should they prevail.


Again, we will disagree. North Korea is already totally isolated from the world, and there certainly won't be a military intervention on China's doorstep. What message do you think will be sent and how will it make NK's situation worse?

Yupp, i hear ya.
But then, committing a pre empitive strike to stop N-Korea from having nukes...Would anything have gone in different wit have happened even if US wasn't tied up in Iraq&Afghanistan? The potential cost of attacking a nuke developing N-Korea would just be so damn huge. Just isn't a  tempting idea:p

I think we'lll see sanctions, thats pretty much all that can be done at this point.

i agree about AQ being happy, but only b/c they got iraq.  They wanted us to fight them in Afghanistan, but they got their asses kicked initially.  Its a well known fact they wanted us to come and get them.  like i said before, they beat the russians and thought they could do the same to us.  had we not invaded iraq, i think afghanistan would be more stable and OBL might even be caught.   the spotlight left afghanistan and went to a BS war.  ironically, AQ now has the war they want in iraq and the results seem to be going the same way as they did with russia.  While i don't think we'lll crumble the way they did, the US has definitely been taken down a step or two.

well, if we had just attacked their nuke facilities by air or special forces then that would have been fine.  a full out invasion like the one in iraq - you are right, prob nothing good out of it.

"regime change" seems to be a pretty shitty tactic.

Are there well known facts about AQ? I find it pretty hard myself to know what they are thinking when suicide is a weapon of first resort.

That's if you know where they are (see Iraq) and China doesn't mind bombing/US military action on its doorstep. I think Special Forces taking out the nuclear program is 100x more complicated than it sounds, and it already sounds really difficult.

Which is exactly why the Iraq war is a non-issue.

And a few of you have an amazing ability to not read entire posts. 

There aren't any in Iraq, there weren't to begin with.

If you don't advocate military force against them, what were supposed to do? ?How was NK going to listen to us? ?The main reason Bush NK has gone as far as it has gone is because no other country is willing to support the US's ultimatums. ?The US has - rightly so in my opinion - refused to engage in two party talks with the North Koreans. ?We did it before, and the North Koreans violated it. ?The Security Council is not willing to do anything. ?Basically our only option is to give in to them - which hasn't worked before - or attack them. ?You said that you are not advocating the latter option.

Exactly. Why do you think the intelligence on NK is any better? If they (NK) have any sense, they won't have their nuclear bombs lined up in a row in a field for easy destruction - you can hide the materials, and especially the knowledge/scientists pretty much anywhere.

There was in 1981 when Israel took them out.  I believe that was what he was referring to.

I wonder if bush will invade this place. i doubt it, hes not taking shitty countries anymore with people armed with ye olde weapons.......this is serious business and danger.

And who wants to place bets that if america goes to war over  there our stupid prime minister will take england with them?

About .1% chance that the US will invade and even less chance the UK will follow - they don't even have enough troops available for their Afghanistan adventure.

I was referring to the intelligence in the Iraq war but your point is taken.

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds
Have no fear for atomic energy
Cause none of them can stop the time."

Bob M.

I get a real kick out of some of you.  Everyone wants to bash the US (and Bush) over the North Korea thing because we invaded Iraq (the two have nothing to do with each other btw), yet not one of you has berated other countries that sit by and do nothing.  If the US made a big mistake in Iraq (like most of you think) that has overextended our military thereby making it such that we can't handle the North Korea thing, then why doesn't another country step up and take care of North Korea and Iran?  Why does it have to be the US all the time?  Why not Germany or Russia or China or India? 

I have a question for you Europeans that make idiotic statements like "you haven't lived in the real world until you live outside the US"....what has your country done to stop NK or Iran?  I imagine about a million percent less than the US has.  Instead of pointing fingers at the soft target (the US), point your finger at your own leaders and ask yourself why they haven't done anything to make the world safer. 

Oh and BTW, if the US chose to handle NK militarily with no nation building like in Iraq, it would take all of 2 weeks to end that regime and destroy all its weapons and capabilities.  We wouldn't have to put more than 40,000 troops on the group to get it done.  Unfortunately that action would put our allies in Japan and S. Korea in great peril.  You US bashers need to look big picture and realize the US isn't to blame for all the problems in the world....religion is.

America haters always intrest me. I understand that power is a currency and its normal for the have-less and have-nots to be envious. Once upon a time we and the Soviet Union were the two duling superpowers and since Stalin killed 8 million the world decided to hate them (hey "less of 2 evils") but we destoryed them and now were solo on the power stand.... so were left alone to be blamed and hated by everyone elce.

It makes me sick the United States of America has free'd more people than any other nation in the history of civilization... thats just reality. Were we perfect? Are we perfect" hell no. We have done lots of wrong over the years but the right and gloryious topples the wrong.... makes it almost worthy of forgeting.

I have been all around the world in my less than 30 years both as a solider and as a drifter. Ive seen all kinds of cultures, good and bad; lovely and evil. This continuous jorney of mine has only reaffirmed my belifes in the American way.

Earlier today when i was bickering with the gentleman who goes by the name hannahat he mentioned the hell in Darfur; truthfully its just another sad example of the hell that Africa is. its just one war after another and genocide in run like a mill. Just look at Chad, Angola, and siera L. The world has abandoned that continent for along time as sick as it makes me I belive it is truly beyond saving..... I spent close to 2 years wondering it.

I'm just sharing my thoughts on the world in an incomplete nutshell and looking for discussion. I am one to engage in fierce political debate and fighting but thats not what this post is about... if ur gunna reply id just like to hear all of ur thoughts

thank you

Both Iran and NK were trying to go nuclear! North Korea would be the failure of Clinton and Albrights Failed policy of appeasement!

Well it only took 4 pages folks but here we have it! Our first "blame Clinton!!"

Since the time Bush labeled North Korea part of the axis of evil NK has withdrawn from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, announced it has nuclear weapons, refused to return to six-nation talks and launched seven missiles into the Sea of Japan, including a long-range Taepodong-2.  What did Bush do about it?  Did he even know about it to begin with (he doesn't read the newspaper you know  :hihi:).  But you're right, we should blame the last 6 years on Clinton.  Sorry dude, its not going to work anymore.  People aren't buying it.  Just look at the polls.  As of this time, on AOL.com a poll asking, "How well has Bush handled the North Korea issue since taking office?"  47% said Not at all and 27% said somewhat.

You were saying that nk just happend to start making nukes since Bush was in office  :rofl: Not true.


Wow quite simply the most intelligent post i have read in a long time.

Stooge.

The NIE says otherwise. Iraq has made us less safe thanks to an unstable sociopath as our leader.



"Nation building" = Another attempt to paint lipstick on the lips of the Iraq pig?

What is really going on in Iraq (which, if you remove your head from your anal canal you may see) is that the militias are at civil war. Democracy is simply not a solution for the problems in Iraq - Iraq is a failed state, a made-up state invented by people who do not even live there. It is three separate countries, mortal enemies for centuries, who simply will not live together in a democracy. When are you diehards going to wake up to that? We are creating a Shiite state that will just go to war with the Sunnis and the Kurds. We could create a Sunni state, and it will go to war with the Shiites and the Kurds. We could create a Kurdish dominated state, and it would go to war with the Sunnis and the Shiites. When are you people going to wake up to this?

Apocalypse is on its way. We will all soon be charred ashes.  :peace:

Pleasant thought.  :no:

hmm why dont you talk about what else the report had in er? stooge?

Wednesday, 3 April, 2002, 12:06 GMT 13:06 UK
US grants N Korea nuclear funds

The US Government has announced that it will release $95m to North Korea as part of an agreement to replace the Stalinist country's own nuclear programme, which the US suspected was being misused.
Under the 1994 Agreed Framework an international consortium is building two proliferation-proof nuclear reactors and providing fuel oil for North Korea while the reactors are being built.

In releasing the funding, President George W Bush waived the Framework's requirement that North Korea allow inspectors to ensure it has not hidden away any weapons-grade plutonium from the original reactors.

President Bush argued that the decision was "vital to the national security interests of the United States".

More: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1908571.stm


Now why would the son of the man who holds massive stock in the Carlisle Group weapons manufacturing conglomerate want to insure North Korea got a nuke? And Iran too? I mean, can all this stupidity that seems to be insuring all these outcomes turn out to not be stupidity at all, and instead a way to keep the money flowing to the war pigs despite the end of the Cold War? Now, if one were to believe that, next thing you know he'd think Bin Laden was being allowed to roam free on purpose, wouldn't he? And then next thing you know, he'd be thinking about how the Bin Laden family sits on the Carlisle Group board, wouldn't they? That has got to be the biggest coincidence in history, the Bushes and the Bin Ladens being tight, why one of the Bin Laden's loaned George money for an oil venture way back when. Just think, it would be like Frank Roosevelt's dad sitting on the board of the Springfield Armaments Company with General Tojo, and FDR Jr. getting a check from Tojo's nephew. Amazing how so few people talk about all that, isn't it?

Why don't you tell Bud Fox.

Or are you going to give us the Alzheimer's drool routine, lockstep with the other dolts, and keep talking about Clinton?

Actually, Clinton was making major headway with them by trying to understand their culture. The most important thing for Lil Kim is that he be seen as an equal to the US President. Bush, rather than trying to gain other things by granting this as Clinton did, rubs the little fucker's face in it, refusing to speak to him at all unless there is "six party talks", which NK thinks makes them look like a province of China. Bush I's Sec of State, Baker, has pleaded with Bush Jr to stop this nose wanking stupidity and simply talk to the guy. Bush has refused, and relations have deteriorated all thru his term as a result.

Your the same person who says the US shouldnt stick there noses in others affairs but when they try to involve the powers that be in the region were being arrogant and stuck up! you make me laugh! Why wouldnt we involve China? the world second most powerful nation? fuck them right?

Learn to merge your posts instead of triple posting! now whos the stooge!


PS. Maybe you should take yourself down south and visit your good ole buddy! He seems to have the same talking points as you.

(http://www.nodulo.org/ec/2002/n003p10c.jpg)

We all know how he's your hero!

Yes, you forget about the UK, who seem to be doing a much better job out there than america.
And in afghanistan. Tbh UK is doing half the work, and the jobs america does the majority of times always go wrong and they blow there own men up.

Watch the news, various channels, they put americans on they treat this whole thing like a fun video game. You watch the british and they know what it is they are doing.

However, i agree with your statements on religion...but, how many other countries they havent been involved in the most recent of conflicts with the islamic extremists have been attacked by terrorists plots....very few.

Excuse me? I take it you have been to afghanistan? No Offense but the Brits tend to stear clear of the most combat situations.. Alot are in support roles roughly 1300 out of the 5800 there! Im not going to knock the Brits but your knocking the american saying we dont know what were doing! For the most part the americans do most the fighting 90 percent of it! Thats why we receive the most casualties. Are you in the military? doubtful. nm your only 16 so ya can even enlist.

ps. im not knocking the british military, but imo its obvious who the superior fighting force is and has been for years now.

Ok im not in the army but i read a lot about the war and IMO the only superiorority the Us has over the Uk is in the sheer size of the force due to the size of the country. But to say the Us fight better is wrong, i would say the Us and Uk in terms of skill are on a par with each other. And if communication between the two forces was better than a lot of the fuck ups that happen wouldnt happen. But as most of us havent experienced what them boys out there have maybe we should shut the fuck up about whos good and who isnt.

I agree for the most part brits are on par. Size does matter in superiority, I am in the military and feel i can talk about this.

ok thats cool just so many people spouting shit that dont know fuck all pisses me off thats all i dont know shit so i dont spout it. : ok:

The americans got half there styles from the british army, except they dont do it half as good.

The British army may not be as big, we dont have as big a country obviously. But id have thought such a big country with so many people would produce a more intelligent army. Whereas my country the UK are smaller yet we seem to have the brains in the fighting?

And straying away from fighting, the reason ours dont fight as much is, they dont run around like mad cowboys wanting to blow everything up every 5 seconds whilst listening to slayer.

Let's try to keep this about North Korea and their nuclear testing/capabilities.  The admins here do not want some rehashed conversation about Iraq and Bush.  They have stated it a 100 times and I have -1 karma because of it.  :0

North Korea having nuclear capabilities is horrible for our world, just like if Iran develops them.  Our world will come to an end as we know because of a nuclear war IMO.

er...lemme think :confused:

To shore up a ruined economy?

To reverse the effects of extensive sanctions?

So Kim Jong Il can have yet more luxury goods while his people starve?

Or maybe simple ol' hatred?

How many more reasons do ya need?

Its a win win scenario for Korea: they sell bomb to some lunatic group - lunatic group blows up a city and....who do we strike back at? There is no proof of Korean involvement (c'mon they are not gonna be handing out recipts or listing it on ebay) and the lunatics exist everywhere - Korea's made money, blown people up and got away scott free. Even moving the bomb is no trouble - placed on boat from Korea sails into San Francisco perhaps - boom!

Hell they could make even more money from it by issuing repeated ransoms through the lunatic group and splitting the money. We'd never know where the nukes came from and even if we did we couldn't do much about it. $50 billion per city sounds about right?

So Brits Military is smarter then americans? Thats why we have the worlds best military academy! go on little boy you have no clue about modern military.

 :hihi:
Who knows...

Certainly the British manage to hit fewer UN convoys, civilians and their own forces

How many British tanks and planes did the US destroy in the first Gulf War - you'll be surprised when you find out!

And whats that about airliners being shot down by US forces.... :P

Go do some research and check back with us mkay?

Once again do i need to explain that the U.S. does 90% of the combat related missions over there? Im not saying the British have a bad or stupid military, Im just putting this kid in his place when he claims we run around like cowboys.

Yea do the math when the US is 90% of the force in the hot zones, the us is bound to make more errors. ?You can't get dirty if your not on the play ground.

The Uk milatary is on par with the us, its only lack is in size. And I consider the UK and most of Europe a great freind to the US.


This thread really get my blood boiling, so I will try and behave.

The fact of the matter is the US is not only to blame for NK.
We are always lefft to deal with this shit becasue no one else will or prefer to turn the blind eye.


As a american that has several family members in past and present who have served during WWII, korea, vietnam, gulf war I, Afganastan, and now Iraq war. ?America has always been a friend when the world has needed them and alot of good poeple have died fighting foriegn wars.

My rant for the day :rant:
I say bring all our people home close all the bases around the world, build big damn walls on our borders guarded by the troops with orders shoot to kill, kick out all the illegal immigrants. Invest in our own country and people and say damn to the world. ?Build our missle defense system bigger.

Unfortunately that would end our economy.  :(  If you can get good out to sell to other nations, then you can't thrive.  It would be devasting to go to straight isolationism.  I think we could stop being the world's police and let some of the countries in closer proximity to the problems take care of them (i.e. Japan take care of NK and Europe take care of Iran).

Unless oil is on the line, then of course we need to be involved to make sure we protect our interests there.   That may sound cold to some, but it will help keep our economy healthy if we have access to relatively inexpensive oil for as long as possible.  It that respect, ensuring that Iraq's oil supply is not run by Saddam was a very smart decision by the US.  Cold to most, but smart financially for us.

you do run around like cowboys out there.

best example, american het fighters, they see a allied convoy, start firing the shit into them, man waves white flag even still they blow him up. then there pilots are like "yeahhh, yyeee hhaaaa wooo"

so dont tell me your army isnt disorganised.

and mate, The british army is far superior than the american army.

Get back on the fucking subject!

well i was prepared to leave it however he decided to reply once again.

It wasn't me... It was the other guy.

That is not what he wrote dudio.

I wouldn't expect any less from you though.

It is also important to point out that Clinton had an extensive plan laid out in dealing with North Korea which he handed of to W. W then ignored it and did nothing with it.

Funny how none of you on the right are saying anything about that article posted as well. The most damning: "Bush waived the Framework's requirement that North Korea allow inspectors to ensure it has not hidden away any weapons-grade plutonium from the original reactors. "

Did you have trouble digesting that little tidbit?

But the sheer irony remains intact. That is: While looking for false WMD in Iraq, we have been blind to the true WMD that are in NK. We have stretched our military to the breaking point, told our allies to fuck themselves, and really have no leverage against NK at this point in time. The trust of the American public is at an all time low, and it would be very difficult to convince them to follow along with any attack on NK.

Just as I have said the entire time: Bush is the boy who cried wolf. The NIE report (and about ten books written by ex CIA, FBI, and conservatives who have jumped the sinking ship) proves also what I have been saying the entire time: We put a stick in the hornets nest and have created more terrorists who hate America.

Now we have a genuine problem before us, but Bush has fucked it up so good (and also provided NK with the nuke technology) that we pretty much have our hands tied behind our backs.


Yet now, none of you guys cry that Iraq has nothing to do with this. On the contrary, it has everything to do with this, and may very well be our demise.

Imagine this.........

in 2000 your dear ole Donald Rumsfeld sat on the board of ABB, who sold North Korea 200 Million dollars worth of Nuclear reactors.

Two years later, he says they are part of the "Axis of Evil." (Of course, that was after Bush waived the inspection process to make sure no weapon grade material could be left over.)

Gee whiz...........who also sold nuclear components to Iran in the 90's?

(scratches head)

It wasn't Rumsfeld.............but _____________________.

First one who answers correctly gets a yellow ribbon magnet to put on the back of their SUV!

no i know that. i was reffering to him.

Dick "Original Gangster" Cheney.  Through Halliburton.  What's your point?  Halliburton is doing great!

Damn!

You are correct!  And you are also correct as Halliburton's stock has doubled!

Please pm me with your address so I can send you the prize. For an additional 10 bucks I will throw in a 4 oz (two week supply) of my magic member male enhancement cream, made with real Inuit DNA.

Some people posting on this thread seem to be war mongers, (The War mongers are seemingly all American)

This worse than the save the world thread

As for the American army, my uncle served in Iraq for the BA and told me about how his regiment had to take it in turns walking around carrying a giant Union Jack, so the Americans wouldn?t bomb them.

Its a actually a proud American tradition - when i have the time i'll dig out the research i did for my Uni dissertation on US friendly fire in WW2.....

Grow Up Stop it with the damn anti-us Bull Shit.

Back On Topic:

This is real life people we can sit around all day pointing fingers at whos fualt it is, but the fact still remains that NK now has Nukes and the CNN headlilne is NK threatens to shoot nuclear missle if the US will not talk. I think the US is there excuse in all this personally. I mean the UN and China are the ones they need to appease, the US would never invade or do anything to them with China being there neighbor. The tough NK position with threasts will only improve the US in there quest at the UN.

Hopefully China can pressure them enough to stop this maddness. 

I think this should all be taken very seriously, but its weird how a lot of nations say they dont' believe this was even a nuclear explosion... I wonder if NK is just bluffing.  Just seems really strange that more then one country has come to this conclusion.

I dont think it matters to them, hey they wanted to get the worlds attention and give everyone heart attacks in unison to get love from the drive by media..... shit man there objective was done either way.... sad

China is leaning on them hard.

They will have more of an impact then we ever could at this point.

So much for the "why don't other nations stand up" theory............ ::)

Actually, China did nothing before this and is the reason the previous sanctions have not worked against North Korea.  China is talking, but lets see if they will support some meaningful actions.

If thats the case then why should we participate in unilateral talks?

I think you mean bilateral.  Good point, nonetheless.

good catch.. im still not awake yet! :yes:

I don't think I am talking about what China did before now am I?

I said China is leaning on them NOW. That's it, please don't try to twist it around.



You don't have to worry about it. Your coke head leader still is refusing (http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/North_Korea) to talk with them at this point.

Of course you avoid everything else like the plague.

No nuke? (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20061009-115158-2477r.htm)

I hope that is the case.

 I see it as NK is now f'd either way. Them not having it sure as hell open ups the window to do something about it before they do develop it, and them pretending shows there intent and will only help build momentum for more sanctions or cut down there nuclear capabilities before they start.

Your   (Posessive)
You're  (You Are)

I'm an American, and damn proud of it.  But we fucked up.  Face it.  Grow up.  Move on.  Get the facts straight.

Why so much animosity?  I am not twisting what you said in any way.  I am merely responding to the "so much for other nations not stepping up."  My statements were quite relevant to that statement.

It is also incorrect to place a comma between two dependent clauses.? Don't play grammar police.? There are many Europeans on this board that write better than many of the Americans on this board.

Like myself for example, I suck at grammar, and to tell you the tructh I could care less. I do the best I can and spell check does the rest atleast for work stuff  :hihi:

Yippe Kyyaye mother fuckers me and my cowboy buddies  :rofl:

I will admit! when it comes to grammar on the computer i suck. Yippee kai ah mother fuckers..

there was a article in news paper about them threatening to launch a missle if america doesnt stop intervention? anyone know bout this?

Your save the world thread was the biggest load of crap I've ever seen.

"Why doesn't Bill Gates give all his money away?"

I'm sorry, but it was you against everybody in that thread. All you did was dodge questions and sound like a big hypocrite... SLCPUNK (Foley for speaker  :hihi:), journey and anyone eles in the thread could vouch for that.

Sounds like you just have something against Americans and the United States. You're quick to point out how rich Bill Gates is and how he should donate all his money.. and yet it sounds like you don't do anything yourself. How fair is that jerk? I bet if he was european and not a capitalist icon you wouldn't be bitching.

And this is hardly America VS. Europe. This is me VS. you... your aurguements and threads seem to be nothing but hypocritical bs. And I think plenty of people... from both sides of this aurguement would agree with me.

   -jack

You sure are good at avoiding the subject at hand though.

How 'bout Rumsfeld on the board of ABB selling nuke components to NK around 2000?

How 'bout Bush waiving the inspection process to get it done (which was the world's safety net)? Then naming them in the Axis of Evil in 2002.

How 'bout that?

Gonna stand up and face some cold hard facts made in this thread, or are you going to point the finger at say "Clinton" and "you hate America" all day?

They have been testing Taep o dong or however it was spelled for years now?

I think the general belief is that North Korea is miles away from
A) Having a nuclear device compact enough to be used in a missile
B) Having a missile able to deliver a compact nuclear device

But according to John McCain it IS Clinton's fault!!!   :hihi:   It's almost comical.  I hope the reps are able to get a majority next month as I don't see anything good happening in 2008 for the dems.  Hillary is their strongest candidate and I just don't think she can pull it off.   Whereas the reps have Guiliani and McCain (who I used to like till he turned into a giant hyprocrite), two strong national names that claim to be moderate repubs.  I think Al Gore would prob have the best shot to be honest.

back on topic, left to decay, yes, i believe you are correct.  While that means they aren't likely to hit a US city tomorrow, there are other means of delivering a nuclear bomb to the US.  They could also use it on S. Korea - but that is unlikely.  The fact that they have one is the real story though.  How the world allowed it to happen is the real troublesome issue.  :-\

I don't know very much about North Korea, but I do recall doing reseach on them years ago when I was still an undergrad.? At that time - which was about six years ago now - North Korea tested a Taepodong by firing it over Japan into the ocean.? They apparently have a substantial arsenal of missiles that have the potential to be launched over fairly long distances.? However, I don't know if they have a nuclear device compact enough to be used in a missile.? That's a good question.?

I saw that moron crying about Clinton, give me a break. I also saw other angry neo-cons calling it a democratic "conspiracy" to drop this info right before the election. Guess like some of the other posters here they forgot that it was their own party who ratted them out.

Polls are showing a 14  approval point drop from the GOP, putting the Dems in a great spot for November. Other reports coming in saying that Bush is furious over the entire Foley thing and "blowing steam out of his ears" over former aides who nothing but bad things to say for his group of thugs. Tisk tisk.

To top it off another republican came out today and blasted Bush on Iraq.

I just think it's about time John McCain pulls off the mask and reveals himself to be John McClane. That'd be so awesome.

DIE HARD...WITH A POLITICAL AGENDA!

JOHN MCCLANE IS BACK AND HE'S KICKING ASS IN THE SENATE!

"Sir, do you wish to address the Foley scandal?"

"Yes...with my grenade launcher! YIPPEE KAY YAY [MR. FALCON]!!!"

That would be amazing.

This is a bit harsh.  McCain is like any politician (dem or rep), they position themselves in the best way possible under a given circumstance (yes dems do it to folks).  Calling one of our nations most decorated and respected war veterans (and most well respected politicians by b oth parties) a moron is a bit over the top (even for you).

Why is everyone trying to place blame here?  I'm sure there is equal blame between Clinton and Bush and then equal blame between the US and all the other countries in the world that did nothing to stop this.  The arguement regarding placing blame is useless and irrelevant.  It's like blaming Clinton for not grabbing Bin Laden when he had the chance.  It's a stpuid arguement because its over and done with and the focus should be on how to proceed from this point.

So that being said, what should be done now?  Should we just hope that China can make progress in their talks with NK?  Should we plan a coalition of military action to pre-emptively strike NK?  Should the US go into bilateral talks with NK as they have requested?  What are the other options?  These are the real questions and points we should be discussing.  Arguing over what has happened in the past is like pissing into the wind.  What is the solution now folks?

Placing blame is ugly, but necessary.  The Bush admin has done nothing but pass the buck and not hold themselves accountable for anything.  Even when its virtually universallaly agreed upon that there were blunders (ie. Katrina) they still come out and say things like "heck of a job Brownie".  Reps are the best spinsters at blaming other people and hardly EVER pointing the finger at themselves.  Its time they were held accountable. 

Why Bush won't open a dialouge with NK is beyond me.  Its this cowboy attitude, this "you do it our way or no way" is ridiculous. Its a huge reason the world hates us.  It MIGHT have worked 6 years ago, but we have no rep anymore in the world.  Bush is largely considered a joke by the rest of the world.  While KJI is a total douche, NK isn't a terrorist group like Al Queda who we don't negotiate with (and rightfully so).  Clinton at least opened the doors of communication.  You can't solve anything by not talking. 

NK loves to sabre rattle - todays talks of "we will go to war with the US if they impose sanctions" is a lot of hot air - it should be taken seriously, but not literally.  NK just wants to show that they matter, that they are important.  I think talking to them to appease that and divert any conflict isn't caving in, its just being smart.  You can talk and still be stern.  but doing nothing?  Makes us just as crazy as KJI.

placing blame is necessary????

it's soooooo unproductive. it's totally political. and you could argue it a thousand different ways.

it's what politicians do. and they always spin everything to make them and their party look better. we never know what they actually believe.

man, the DEMS have so many people on these threads securely in their back pockets. they are laughing behind your back, all the way to the bank. talk about being OWNED.? :hihi:

So you don't think us citizens have to hold our elected leaders accountable for their inept actions/lies/corruption!?!  I'd laugh, but that is more frightening then funny to me.

I'll agree placing blame when its really nobodys fault (like 9-11 for example - I think both parties could have done more to prevent it) is a waste of time; but the last 6 years have been a joke.  Nobody is held accountable, nobody is replaced/fired.  Its one thing for the dems to do it, but I'm dumbfounded that you think placing blame as a US citizen is "unproductive".  You're right, lets just go on making mistakes and letting the current admin learn on the job without ANY accountability - after all, "its hard work being president"!!!  : ok:

Yeah, you're right.  I mean the Swift Boat Vets for Truth were REALLY respectful of John Kerry's service in Vietnam.  I mean, did the dems attack Bush or Cheney for their time in Nam...oh wait....

and Max Cleland - those Chambliss ads were REALLY respectful of a guy who gave two legs and an arm for his country - but c'mon, Cleland wasn't really patriotic was he??

Don't get me wrong, I like McCain for the most part (although seeing him bend over to the religious right recently was pretty pathetic) but don't act like the other side is that respectful either.  Its one thing for SLC to call McCain a moron, but entirely another thing when you see republican ads crapping all over people who ACTUALLY served their country.

Actually y'all did try to fire back at bush claiming he was AWOL from his guard duty. Remember Bill Burket? And the memos he produced to show Bush's desertion.... oh wait a second, something about those memos.

I know the next thing is gunna be that atleast Kerry served in vietnam, and bush didnt.... thats true, nothing to refute. Kerry was a born with a silver spoon and did elect to serve in Nam. That is a very noble thing in it of itself, but his conduct during the war was nothing short of reprehensible. Ordering his boat crew to engage the twin 50's on suspicious looking watercraft before determining if its hostility status, abandoning his patrol to hit up the local village brothels, and most dispicably applying for a purple heart for a scratch cured with bacitration from a wound recived from shrapnel via his own mishandeling of an M-79 GR. I also love the fact that he elected to pull the silver spoon to leave after 4 months after he got tired of it.... 33% of a tour- not a bad deal.

As one who served my nation for a chunk of my young life..... this sort of thing matters to me; might not mean shit to some of y'all but its very near and dear to my heart to serve with honor

I made no reference in my post to one party being any better than the other in terms of this.  Did I say that dems tend to trash rep war veterans and not vice versa?  No.  I simply said it is a bit over the top to call McCain a moron regardless of the party.  He is about as well respected a politician as we have in the US, period.  You seem to want to continue this reps vers dems arguement when no one is really arguing with you.  You have gone out of your way to make your points and no one here has really argued with you.

I simply stated that its a waste of time for us (here) to place blame now.  You hold your elected officials accountable during a vote my friend.  I'm sure we'll see that come November.  I just thought it would be nice to have a discussion about what we as a world could do about this NK thing (I would assume you agree that this is an issue for the world and not just the US?  I mean there are other countries out there that could do their part, right?).

On that subject, I disgree with you on going into bi-lateral talks with NK.  It has nothing to do with caving in either.  NK is looking to make the US a scape goat.  Notice that they haven't asked for bilateral talks with Russia or England or Germany.  The 6 party talks was the absolute right way for the US to go about this.  You said it yourself....the US has lost some street credibility worldwide.  You can have it one way or the other, but not both.  Either we have the credibility to go into bilateral talks with NK, or we don't.  I personally think it is best for the US to encourage NK's neighbors to handle this situation.  I only wish we could do that with Iran.  But unfortunately their neighbors are far less reliable.

You can sit here and point fingers, and the reps here could say that 911 wouldn't have happened if Clinton had had the balls to take Bin Laden when he was offered him on a silver platter numerous times, but those arguements are ridiculous.  You want to hold your elected official accountable....do so in November.  It's only 3 weeks away.  I do remember the same kind of talk 2 years ago when the US was gonna vote strong liberal (by all accounts and all polls and SLC) and Bush won by a rather large margin.  This time around with the Foley incident, Katrina behind us, and the Iraq problems....I would assume the dems will take both the senate and the congress majorities.  They the dems can fix things up.   : ok:

Bush should stop being such a moron and talk with N Korea.

Simple as that.

His "with or without us" stance has failed so far, yet he is still ready to run off the edge of the cliff. So many are willing to follow him right off too.

When you're out of ammo, pull out the labels, and bring in unrelated subjects, right?

Bud Fox thinks we should mind our own business, and stop trying to rule the whole world.  War is either an act of liberalism (if isolated) or fascism (if constant), it is a worst case scenario to true conservatives. Tell me again how smart it is to spend hundreds of billions of dollars, with tens of thousands dead, all in the hope of returning Iraq to the level of stability it enjoyed before we entered. Tell me about the shining pro-American democracy.

Bud Fox is waiting.




One wonders if North Korea ultimately did the right thing. They were named a member of the "Axis of Evil" by Bush, who followed that up with a pre-emptive invasion of Iraq, another member of this "axis". One would think that the correct action of a leader who wished to protect his people from some obvious nutcase who was committing mass murder in the name of "liberation" would be to acquire a nuclear weapon. Bush has merely reaped what he has sown. If Bud Fox was a world leader faced with one of Mr. Bush's Hitler-style invasions based on trumped-up bullshit, Bud Fox would get one too.

So it is Bushs fualt that the Us prefers the 6 party talks. NK wants to talk to us direct becuase they want our money. We would only loose any 1 on 1 talk. The US is going to be the scape goat on this one I can see that already. Bush has already stated the US will not invade NK. But NK has said if the Us does not talk with them direct they will see it as a act of war and there will be physical repercussions.

If the Us demanded ?1 on 1 talks evrybody would call foul. The US is trying to deal with it with all parties involved.

FUCK NK

They can go to hell for all I care.

China is the only country with pull when it comes to NK not the US. The US is NK scapegoat for them to get there agenda done and it gets them TV time. Fuck them. ?Bush did screw up calling them axis of evil it only fueled there fire. ?The Us might not be able to fight the small terrorist with no ryme or reason that has no headquarters or country but we sure as hell can defend ourselves against a bunch of lunitics in NK wearing uniforms. ?

He did fuck up.

Actually at this point they'd have a hard time. Our military is stretched thin, even our generals are reporting this.

Bush needs to sit down and talk. Not keep on with this cowboy bullshit.

The US Agreed to talk with nk.. just along with the neighbors in the region.. 6 party talks come to mind at all?


Actually Bush spoke out against the swift boat adds and never attacked John Kerrys service. I'm not going to say anything about his service but i will admit JK is a joke as far as the Navy see's him.

Brody..........what a macho military man. Beating up on somebody who served in Vietnam  ::). Why aren't you in Iraq protecting us and spreading democracy?

Yippe Kay Yay

Our milatary can handle anything anytime or place. We are not streched thin as you might think.? Forever guys that say he is a retired general on tv there are four more saying the total opposite. Do not believe everything that is on TV.

We would never invade NK it will not happen, we would only fight them in a self defense type mode and that would be done by long range missles off ships ans subs and planes at first.? We would pump in troops to Sk but personally I think we would have to hit them so hard the first wave through air and sea the whole planet would shake. Of course there first move is to cross the border so they will create a bad situation for the innocent people in Sk and our guys there but remember this is a self defense type fight with them making first move. I do not see any way the us would make a preemptive strike on them. Never going to happen.

Remebers this Iraq is not? a real war when compared to? wwI or II with a real enemy. Iraq has been fought on TV. Polically Correct bullshit with timeouts and all. There would not be any allusion of who the enemy is in NK. There wear uniforms and march in lines follow orders etc. a very well orginized fighting machine, Which we are good at fighting.? There would be no time for TV pretend stuff. It would be an all out fight with no rules. That is where we went wrong in Iraq, our politics and Tv run that war. Let the milatary due there job and kick some ass and get it over with.

Gimmie some of what you are smoking...........

Marlboro Lights

I prefer box

You have to admit our failures in Iraq and Vietnam were not the fualt of the milatary but the goverment.?

My uncle who was in Iraq and Afganastan and is going back again in November said it is a weird scene, half the pople love us the other half hates us, but the scariest thing is you do not know who the enemy is. It could be anybody and at any moment you have some guy with a Ak shooting at you or rockets going over your head.?

Were damn good at blowing up strategic locations and blowing up tanks etc, but nobody can win a war with the enemy having no face.

front page of www.netscape.com:

SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea is threatening war against the United States for its "hostile attitude." As North Korea warned of physical retaliation for increased U.S. pressure over its reported atomic test, South Korea discussed preparations for a nuclear attack that could include an expanded conventional arsenal.

Haha, if North Korea ever used nuclear weapons on the USA, not only would it anger the USA, but it would anger many other countries also.  SK is already talking about nuclear weapons ("preparations for a nuclear attack") and if SK gets nuclear weapons, China will want to protect themselves, Japan would want to protect themselves, and many other countries will also want protection.

I'm just afraid that this might escalate into an all-out nuclear war.  When war is involved, there can be some "misunderstandings" between countries which could cause unnecessary war.

This is quite unsettling.

I wonder where they would launch a nuclear attack if they DID launch a nuclear attack. Probably Washington D.C.?

Its just sabre rattling...from everything I have read/heard they don't have the capabilities to hit the US with a nuclear weapon.  They could hit US forces in SK though.  It is unsettling though that they can speak that casually about starting a war and throwing a nuke at us.

I don't think Kim-Jung Ill has the guts to do it because he loves Hollywood movies, and if he nukes America he won't get any new films for a while.  :hihi:

Seriously, he's a huge movie buff and supposedly has one of the largest home video collections ever (hundreds of thousands of DVDs).

He also saw Team America.  :hihi:

My understanding (and I am no way near fully informed obviously) is that NK doesn't have the capability of reaching us here in the US (especially on the East coast).  Even if they could, our defenses in Alaska are such that we would have a missle shot out of the sky before it had time to even arm.  They could however smuggle a device in which is the real threat IMO.

This guy is a fucking lunatic!  You can blame Bush for a lot of stuff, but he didn't make this guy a lunatic.  And keep in mind that they were developing nuclear capabilities long before the mention of "axis of evil".

Anyone here support a full out pre-emptive strike?  I would oppose it right now.  But if this guy threatens us again, I'd reconsider.  I'm pretty sure we could end NK in under 2 weeks without put a foot on the ground.  It would mean some pretty bad stuff for Japan and SK though.

Better not be able to reach UK either. or ill be pissed.

Man, that'd be awful.  :no:

strangely i had a dream last night that korea nuked england. and i saw the nuke explode from my window....and from there it goes terminator 2 style me melting.

I'm the closest to them.  :nervous:

NK aren't about to nuke anyone, they'd be wiped off the planet. Even the UK has around 200 nuclear warheads. And I doubt they're about to pass on weapons to Al Qaeda either - there's much more of a threat from Pakistan or ex-Soviet states of that happening in my opinion.

The French just said they don't think the test was even successful and declared it a failure.  Be great if they tried again and blew themselves up hahaha.

Honestly at this point I don't think they have any nukes (that work).  The consensus from a lot of countries is the explosion was very small by nuclear measurements.  The US has conventional bombs that had bigger explosions then some countries are recording.

yeah, they have nuclear weapons and test might have been successful but they can't shoot a missile that far to the USA, and they can't airdrop a missile either, they nuclear weapons aren't very advanced, or so i've heard.

you know what i hate about this?  i hear so many people (mostly republicans, haha) saying "OMG, who cares we have 5,000 more nukes than everyone else we can just destroy them lol" they act like every other country is a threat to us, just because they happen to have nuclear weapons, and they don't think about the situation fully and realize it would be a mistake to just go bomb all of NK.  They act like the USA is the best, and we are just so kind to protect other nations.  sigh

Negotiations and agreements take two willing parties and an entity that will enforce the agreements.? We have neither.  We have tried bilateral agreements before.? They took our aid and funneled it into their nuclear program.? Are you suggesting that the United States enter into another bilateral agreement with them?? NK knows that the only way they will be held accountable is if others are part of an agreement.? Why else do you think they are against the six party talks?? You are falling prey to NK's actions; Appeasement goes nowhere.

Actually f bag I volunteered for Iraq, was denied for 1 im a submariner they dont like to send us there, 2 I damaged nerves im my left arm while on deployment in the pacific and since we dont have the medical attention i needed while on mission i now have partial use of my left arm! now what do you have to say? Have you volunteered for a task of that much importance? anything that big? have you ever voluntered to put you life on the line for something you believe in?Or some one else? No you have not.

Very off-topic, but can one of the democrats or liberals please come and defend the democrats' opposition to requiring identification for voting.? I don't want to start another thread, but I am interested to hear what the defense of this is other than illegal immigrants won't be able to vote.? I thought the democrats were against voter fraud and wanted to stop all improper voting?? Don't say that it will disenfranchise minorities or the poor; the government will come to your doorstep with a free ID card.

um, why not just start another thread?  You want to change the subject THAT bad?

That's Mr "F-bag" to you.........


That would explain your bad typing............


Wrong again. Last summer I helped put together the "Anti-American-pro-terrorist-teach-our-kids-about-gay-sex-in-third-grade" parade float. A live abortion was performed on it as it made it's way down Main street.



Yes...............

Its good we have people like you, just emboldens my views and thoughts.  Your quick to call the soldiers serving in Iraq murderers and down them, but when it comes to a man who some people have argued his service in Vietnam was questionable at the least then comes home and disrespects the ribbons and medals of the U.S. Service tosses them on the lawn of white house and then takes of on a little trip to Hanoi while we still have POW's In camps in Vietnam.. You have about as much of a backbone and moral fiber that Hanoi John has.

I have never spoken out against our soldiers.

It means you are still an armchair soldier, now go back and play in America's Army on the Internet you dolt.

Actually you have.
Sorry you little punk.. Once again crawl out from under your mothers skirt, I've actually received hazard pay.. Ive actually participated in real life missions.. so keep talking shit!

ps. im a submariner not a soldier, just cause i defend the decision to go to war means im an armchair soldier? I volunteered to serve! I volunteered for sub duty not quite the safest job in the world so... what have you done?

Bud Fox bets you tried to name your penis as a dependent on last years tax return, didn?t you?

Quick one there kid.. you have quite answered the question. Thats right you fall in the same class as you friend slc. Sure quick to talk shit but when someone disagree's

The real shock is coming Nov. Will and Buchanan are essentially telling conservatives to vote Democratic. Both have large audiences of traditional conservatives who are more and more fed up with the current "conservative" radical fascist government. Bushism has never been "conservatism", it hijacked what was once an honorable idealogy of men who were well respected even by their opponents. So now everybody hates you guys, the Dems, the Mods and the Conservatives. That is a recipe for a major disaster for the neo-con murderering fascists who have taken over this nation. It may be this country's last chance.

wow, on my day off, I sleep thru all the drama, and now read this thread, quite funny!.But not really.

There are alot of things that need to be done, first off, communication. Without that its all pointless. I thihnk its a joke NK, and that whatever his name is (queer) runing the show there, as reading about his love of liquor , the good shit.lol.

Im not political only try to be reasonable, but damn............................


Let me say this . ever play battleship, was a game with great commercials of kids, playing a game, who's only objective was to sink the other persons ship.  To me thats what politcs are. I hope to god that someone with reason comes around to change this game.

Allow Bud Fox to lower the discourse here if he may: Go fuck yourself you stooge.

Smooth one little kid. quit talkin as a third person.. rather lame

Ah yes, the old "Bwahhhh! Clinton did it!", with endless references from Newsmax, the Washington Times, and all the rest of the right wing misinformation machine that told us WMDs were in Iraq, that Al Queda and Iraq were connected, and a billion other lies, like Hezbollah sneaking across the Mexican border. Clinton is not the president, so what is the relevance? Bush is, and the fact that we see just another example of his mismanaged "war on terror" fiasco is relevent, in fact it's another reason to put a Democratic congress in power to check this idiot.

You are actually more of a turd person yourself.

Hey maybe you guys can elect another member of the Klan! that would sure keep him in check!

In the final analysis, Bush is a fucking coward and so are you. The fact he attacked what looked like a pushover and failed to do anything about real threats simply adds more strength to Frank Rich's argument that the war was about winning elections. Murdering people to gain public office and power. You know, like Hitler did. But the comparision to Hitler is unfair, because Hitler had more balls, and he didn't lie as much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h3GPc_yMCE&eurl=

This video sums it all up rather well.. ps they actually did give kim watever a mj signed bball

am i making you mad little boy?

So far im a stooge, coward, dolt, turd person and i can fuck myself.. way to go! pat on the back for the little boy. still have not answered what you have done. what have you done for your country?

EDIT* Im done playing with you little boy, This topic has gone way off topic and I've allowed myself to get caught up in a fight with a kid.. Sorry all.

You don't read do you?


Stooge.





Go rest your injured arm stooge.

Dudes - please take the name calling/insults to PMs....this is a good thread and its an on going story - it'd be a shame if it had to get closed.

It seems like everything political around here ends up leading to some sort of fighting.? I'm not naming any names, but honestly, thats kind-of stupid.? You can honestly debate with people without calling them names because you don't like their opinion.? There's no need to say "fuck you" or something to someone.? Please, debate intelligently, not with insults.

maybe not but u did just mock the men and women who do actually risk their lives daily with your abortion float joke. I know your kidding around but this stuff is actually serious; dont be suprised when people take it as so

Actually glance up about two posts from this post, I address the issue at hand.  Of course, noone wants to address the real issues that I presented.  As for this issue, while I think its worthy of its own thread, I can predict how that thread will turn out.

What a cowards fight, the both of you.

I never have spoken against the soldiers. My family is military, I was born on a military base, and my insurance is USAA.

If you think that statement was mocking our great men and women in uniform, then you may want to take a reading comprehension course. If I was mocking anybody it would be brody.

I have always said the same thing since day one, and never changed my course. Unlike some of the other flip floppers here, who were pro war, then against the war, then pro war once again. Posters who ran away and changed their user names, so they could voice different opinions without fear of being called on it.

Everything I said about Iraq was correct. Everything I predicted that would happen: happened. Most of my anger comes from the fact that we are taking these kids and shipping them off to be slaughtered for a lie. If that isn't supporting the troops I don't know what else is.

Do I support our lying, nazi mother fucker president in the white house? Nope. Fuck him. But I have never said anything anything bad about our troops. Anybody who claims it, is a liar.

You have done nothing but ignore relevent posts regarding this subject alone, then come here and claim nobody is addressing yours............... ::) While changing the subject.

What post has been directed to me that I have ignored?  I would be happy to address them.

Oh Boy! Your just a regular ole GI then right?

Yes you were mocking me, As if i had no right to argue my thoughts on the war because I was not serving in Iraq.. Although I did volunteer.

What are you talking about, Ive never changed my opinion of the war.


Oh boy you can tell the future..

Fall in line with hugo, you both can just eliminate your political rivals just like Hugo has done and the Nazi's did.

So if you already know what we're going to say (b/c I guess you can see the future??) then why bother asking anyone in the first place?  :rofl: hahah

There have been plenty of great points/facts brought up in this thead that nobody really addressed from the right.

Not necessarily directed at you, but at the same time I'm sure you read them.

Guess what?

You still have not addressed any of those facts we have all put on the table. Why not?

Don't worry about me, or anybody else. Quit beating your chest and start owning up to facts.

Again:Rummy was on ABB who sold nukes to NK.

Where is your outrage?

Please read before you write.  I did not say that I could predict what you would say; I said that I could predict how the thread would turn out.

Most of the comments that I read discussed blaming Bush, Rumsfeld or others.  I am not in the business of defending those guys.  Rather, I am interested in what we should do.  Bush is getting criticism for not engaging them directly - in fact I believe I responded to a post where you made this criticism - and I addressed this in several posts.  Yet, no one really wants to discuss the real issues.

Show us the links to your so called info. I do not doubt some of it is true. 

Real websites not no Bullshit pretend make believe left wing extremist websites either.

Hey I'm a republican, I'm not happy with Bush or what is going on, but I think your over the top on some of your accusations.

How old are you I have a metrosexual tree hugger here at work I could hook you up with.

Normal tatical manuver for liberals is to sling so much shit so people loose focus on the real issue.   :hihi: They get tied up on the blame game.  :beer:

I'm just busting balls now becuase this thread is pathetic.

NK has nukes, how, why or when or who's fualt will not matter when they start WWIII.

Bottom line what is the world as a whole going to do to stop the maddness and prevent NK from starting WWIII or selling them to terrorist that will detonate one in Europe or US. China is the main player here, not the US.

I respect Kim Jon Il (i aint communist and i aint a fan) because he's doing what he wants with out anybody pushing him around. He's simply "testing" nuclear weapons doesnt mean he's necessarily gone bomb anyone or use them. I think its unfair how america and other nations can have nukes (even tho they dropped the 1st one) yet no one else can

If i remember correctly you were a palestinain supporter a few months back in the last thread about a group of crazy poeple.

I dont quite remember. I had various debates about palestine-israel issue If criminals get psychological help so do the "other crazy people" but no, people want to get rid of them. stay on topic btw

I think those on the right and the left can both agree that Sakib isn't a big fan of Uncle Sam?   :rofl:

Sakib, I hope one day Kim Jong decides to "test" nukes on your house.  Then we'll see how much you respect him  ::)

Yippe ki yay  :beer: :rofl:

No Hanna, bad idea.  I like England.  ;D

Originally I wrote "country" but I realized that might be blowing up some of my HTGTH friends across the pond, so I changed it to "house".  But based on the megaton ratings most countries have measured I don't even know if NK's "nuke" would do that much damage to his bedroom let alone his entire house  :rofl:

So true man, an M-80 might have more bang!  :P

North Korea arms trade seen as threat
AP - 17 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - North Korea's claimed test of a nuclear weapon is only the tip of what frightens the rest of the world. It's all the more worrisome because the country has shown itself to be a virtual bazaar for spreading missiles, conventional weapons and nuclear technology around the globe. According to U.S. officials and outside experts, Pyongyang has sold its military goods to at least 18 countries, mostly in Africa and the Middle East.

Well, thats not exactly news (or at least it shouldn't be to most of us) but....DUH.  And I don't mean "duh" towards you Sjgotnitro, but to those who think its OK for Kim Jong to have nukes (there are a few in this thread  ??? )

Well, as usual the libs have turned what was at one point a good discussion into name calling and playing the "blame game" which in turn has irritated the Reps to the point of a counter-attack (I know I got a negative karma points months ago for far less than I've seen in this thread). ?

Calling Bush a nazi (regardless of whether you like him or agree with him or not) is retarded and low brow. ?Comparing a leader who has freed millions of oppressed people to a leader who committed genocide on the Jews is a bit cock-eyed...even for the extreme left. ?

Don't you think it would be fun to sit here and discuss the real issue of what we should do as a world about this threat. ?I have seen some conservatives state their side on this, what do the liberals think about it? ?Can you guys state what you think we should do now without insulting Bush, the US or our military?

My opinion is to encourage the 6 party talks, encourage China to back the sanctions, get the UN to follow through on the sanctions, and issue a warning to NK that any additional threats of nuclear war or war of any kind will be viewed by the coalition (meaning basically the rest of the world because a coalition against NK after any further threats would be hugely inclusive of the rest of the world) as an act of war itself and that further sanctions or military action will follow. ?This is a staring contest guys. ?The one that blinks first loses. ?The time is now to see if his threats are hollow or not while his nuke program is in its infancy (so to speak) and while he doesn't have the ability to strike long range.

Once in a while I read a post and laugh out loud.  This was one of them.

They have been posted in this thread a few times now.

BBC reported it, CNN reported it, AP, and Fortune reported it (that's off the top of my head.)

All my sources are always mainstream media, or national security reports, etc.

It's cold hard facts. Do some homework, ask more questions, google and READ.

Fuck Bush.

Our options with North Korea are limited because of his Nazi style invasion of Iraq. Tough shit if you don't like to hear it.

That pretty much sums it up.

Brody, where you at dude??!?!?!?!?

Lets talk about this, where did you go?

Address this please. It has been brought to your attention now 3-4 times!!!

The administration has crossed over into dangerous fascist-related program activities, both domestically and abroad. Nazis were fascists, and while this administration is hell bent on pursuing fascism, they're not Nazis. Nazis had a very specific agenda that dealt with Nordic German speaking populations and "race" characteristics. This administration has simply replaced the Nazis' obsession with "race" characteristics and their purported superiority, and replaced them with peculiar notions of religious and cultural superiority. They're Nazi-like, but more accurately described as just plain old garden variety fascists.

You guys are such a bunch of closet queens. Why not get it over with now and send Bud Fox a naughty email? BudFox@yahoo.com

Edit: Bud Fox may be too old for you, since he is over 18.

FUCK YEAH !

Your sarcasm is noted.

All American citizens are now threatened by a government who can arrest them without the most basic right of all guaranteed to them. This is what this whole thing has been all about from Day 1 of the Bush Administration: the removal, piece by piece, in the name of "terror", of the rights of citizens in this democracy. Fucking 1984 is here. Those who blindly follow and shout "patriotism" in lieu facing the reality of today are just as much to blame. "Patriotism" is the last refuge of these scoundrels and a last ditch attempt to lie to themselves and their countrymen. Shame on them all.

Way to go Bud Fox.. Just thought i would put out to you people how immature this little boy is. Came over to ROV and Spammed my forum with over 25 threads bashing republicans, calling me a homosexual and other such comments.. makes ya wonder who really lost this debate he claims to have won since he so nicely replies with attacks.

Hey brody are you going to address any of those issues brought up or not?

Sorry no, Im not going to discuss issues with Childish people like youself and you boy bud fox, come spam my forum! eww real fun Eh! look what politics do to you people it makes you mad! i bet you have troubles sleeping at night knowing budfox will never be able to marry a fellow man! must be rough.

Why would I, you people just seem to bash me by calling me a closet fag, dolt, stooge and all the other bullshit name calling you guys pull.

Seems like a big ole cop out to me.

I asked you about the Rumsfeld/ABB connection/selling nukes to the Axis of Evil in 2000 and you ignored it 4 or 5 times now.

Now you are claiming that because Fox got you upset you will not answer any questions about the hypocrisy and lies of your leaders in the white house?

Once again No, I obviously got little boy budfox upset. Went and spammed my forum with you! So no I Cop out and not bother! I know how angry it makes you. Why dont you just go protest the war at a dead soldiers funeral.. Maybe you two can do it together! It would be fun! you could get the kiddies out there! make jokes at there families expense!

I'm not angry one bit. But I do think you should admit that you can't answer the facts that have been presented you.

(And.......it is important to point out that you are a huge hypocrite, since you have spammed my board. Not that I ever gave a rat's ass, it was pretty funny really. )

Anyway..........are you going to address the facts before you this evening? Or are you going to ramble on about Fox ?

I spammed your board? As in how? I posted maybe one thread as a guest.. Maybe 2.. Never called you names or such.. Prove where i spammed your board.

Quite honestly i never took the time to look into the shit you post anymore! all I ever see from you is conspiracy theories or some half crocked bs..

Like I said, I really don't care that much. I didn't even care to take it down, your spam still sits on my board. Yet I digress........

This is your last chance, to be honest and comment on this:

"The US Government has announced that it will release $95m to North Korea as part of an agreement to replace the Stalinist country's own nuclear programme, which the US suspected was being misused.
Under the 1994 Agreed Framework an international consortium is building two proliferation-proof nuclear reactors and providing fuel oil for North Korea while the reactors are being built.

In releasing the funding, President George W Bush waived the Framework's requirement that North Korea allow inspectors to ensure it has not hidden away any weapons-grade plutonium from the original reactors.

President Bush argued that the decision was "vital to the national security interests of the United States".

What say you?

And this:

I say to you, GET A LIFE

That's what I thought.

Can't answer for that can you?

Thank you for allowing me to prove my point.

Nope. Looked into but still just enjoying how it drives you mad that i wont respond to it.

Well don't feel special. None of you guys are able/willing to really "answer" for that. All I see it gear shifting into the "We shouldn't play the blame game here guys" mantra. LOL, right..........

If our president waived the inspection process that was our safety net, the worlds safety net, and liar #2 Rummy expedited the nuke deal from his board position, then the people should know. Especially when those same two ass clowns are now calling NK the "Axis of Evil."

Talk about a bunch of fucking war pigs.

In all fairness slc, you have not answered my questions either.  It's a bit hypocritical to bash Brody while you yourself still refuse to offer any opinion outside "Fuck Bush".

You are right about some blame for this going to Bush and his administration.  I really don't see anyone arguing with you on that point.  But you are wrong to assume that other countries aren't to blame either.  The US is not the only country in the world.  Where were the other super powers during this build up?  China doesn't even want to impoise sanctions at this point even after threats have been made and a test has been run!  That seems far worse to me at this point.  Where was the UK, Russia, India, Germany, etc?

I've simply asked you, and the other liberals, to muse about a possible solution to this problem without looking back.  Ok, let's assume that you're left wing conspiracies are all accurate and Bush is to blame for all the worlds problems including sudden baby death syndrome.  Let's start with that assumption so we remove that arguement.  Now with that being said, what do you think we (the US) and we (the world) should do moving forward about the situation?  Again, no need to say "Bush fucked this up, yada, yada, yada" because we are giving you that assumption to start with.  What should the world do now?  Do you have any original opinion or insight?

why did clinton allow rummey to sell the nukes to NK?

and if NK was obtaining nukes in 2000, i guess we can all agree that clinton's approach wasn't working.

Well we got to 10,11 pages and now this thread has completey deteriorated  :-\

Seriously guys, take it to PMs please?

I haven't agreed with a lot of what you have posted in these threads, but I must say that you seem reasonable.

Well its possible to disagree without it turning nasty.  Obviously people on both sides of this arguement are pretty passionate about what they believe in, which is great, but lets keep things in perspective. 

Dang dude, this is a tad off.

It's all been posted right here in THIS THREAD.

Read!!!!

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

For Chrisake man!

And I've answered it. You ignored it.

Just like always.

Read.

i believe rummey sat on the board of a company which sold light water reactors to NK, which could POTENTIALLY be used to make nuclear weapons.

but providing NK with these materials was part of the Clinton Plan (1994).

so if you have a problem with rummey's role, you have a problem with the Clinton Plan.

Does anyone beleive that this is part of North Korea's plans for World Domination?

I have a problem with hypocrisy.



No.

It is also hypocritical to blame those on the right and not the left.  Clinton created a plan with North Korea; Rumsfeld worked for a company that legally supplied reactors as part of that plan.  Rumsfeld was not part of the decision making of the US government, but merely worked for a supplier that provided the what the government requested.  Either way, the policy failed and in hindsight it was a mistake.  It is interesting that you see the hypocrisy from Rumsfeld - who I have hardly heard anything from recently - yet you completely dismiss those on the left that are far more hypocricitcal in their blame game against the Bush administration. 

Let's move on to discussing what should be done.  Your solution is more bilateral talks?

if anyone is being a hypocrite, it is you my friend!  :hihi:

you criticize rummey for supplying the materials. yet you do not criticize the CLINTON PLAN that agreed to it.

that makes no sense. so i'm assuming you were unaware of said clinton plan. 

Sorry if I missed it, but as I re-read it appears to have been a one sentence statement that the US should go into bilateral talks with NK.  Is that correct or did I miss something else?  Is that really all you have to offer as a real opinion?  If so, aren't you worried that all it will result in is more money stealing by the NK government?  They want bilateral talks so they can work out a deal with the US whereby we pay them off to stop their nuclear program.  Seems to me that a more reasonable approach is to have the 6 party talks and to encourage the NK's neighbors to have the larger role in handling this.  It is NK that is resaisting that course, not the 5 other parties.

I knew you would probably say that. But that is not what I am talking about. The "Clinton plan" had nothing to do with how it was expedited by Bush and Rummy. Which I have already stated. (Just as Bush ignored the warnings about N Korea left to him by Clinton.)

I criticize Rummy for overseeing the sale after Bush waived the inspection process. Waiving an inspection process that was put into place to avoid the kind of problem we have now (That process was part of Clintons "plan".) The hypocrisy is that he sold the components, waived the safety net while doing it, and turned around 2 yrs later and lumped them in the "Axis of Evil." None of which Clinton did.

inspections by who the UN? Id hate to change their diaper afterwords

its a shame that shithole of a radio station AIR AMERICA.. just went bankrupt! Woo hoo! sounds like there isnt much of a market for it haha

That's because Al Franken is pretty lame.

Loved his book, but then I saw him on the Daily Show. Wow. Big disappointment.

He's a talented writer and he was OK on SNL but political comedy a la Stewart/Colbert isn't his thing - he should stick to writing.

I subscribed to his radio show for a while and some parts were interesting but a lot of it was pretty dull. I un-subscribed after a few weeks. Tim Meadows was a guest pretending to be a Republican senator once; that was the best part.

Sorry if i dont know what's going on, but by the sound of things Bill Clinton is bringing about the End of the World.

You should be sorry.   ::)  You've added less than zero to this discussion.  Go post in the "My daughter is a drug addict" type threads.   : ok:

I'm not a big fan of any government whatsoever, though i think Chinese is alright atm compared to others, they probably got the best government. either them or the Aussies.
I don't see what's wrong if Kim Jong tested nuclear weapons in my house, just make sure he knows what he's doing to prevent damage as such. He aint gonna take over the world. Why do you think he;s rejecting UN orders? He clearly knows everythings gonna be alright and UN like to kik up a fuss. Like the way HEALTH AND SAFETY boards kicked up a fuss about cheek cells and students getting AIDS and my college fought for us to be able to do the experiment.

You should deal with the present, not the past.

you posted two completely FALSE statements.

1. Under the Clinton Plan, it was Clinton who agreed to providing nuclear reactors to NK. it was a key piece of his plan. it was REQUIRED by CLINTON. i guess you missed that in all the reading you do.  :hihi:

2. bush was not president in 2000 when the deal was done! the ABB deal  was done 2 years PRIOR to bush waiving the inspection process. Bush and the GOP were AGAINST providing NK with nuclear reactors.

and you can call rummey a hypocrite, but that's a weak argument. for one, he sat on the board of ABB so his involvement is not clear at all. and two, somebody HAD to send NK the reactors since it was required, so why not ABB? and three, things change in two years. maybe as SOD he discovered classified information about NK, or maybe NK became more of a threat in those two years. it's all specualtion.

Read each of my posts here.  Each one has only been about the present.  It is you and others that are talking about the past all the time.  I don't want to talk about Clinton or Bush or decisions made prior to now.  I have been asking everyone to discuss what we should do now and drop the blame game.

I enjoy the arguments here...I really do.  I have always enjoyed the politics threads.  As much as I'm polar opposite to guys like slc, I enjoy the banter with him and others, but to be honest, you make no sense and your arguements are so nonesensical that I can't believe I'm even replying to you.  I guess I'll just make this my last reply to any of your nonesense.

The reason I made those comments, is because, how many posts are their blaming the previous administration?

You can't be that naive and blind where you are willing to blame Bush, but give no blame to the Clinton administration.  Ridiculous.

The UN just imposed even more sanctions.....

What is ridiculous is your failure to understand what happened after I explained it nearly 5 times.

What Clinton implemented and what Bush did with that plan are two different things. I would repeat myself, but you seem to have some sort of filter blocking it all anyway.

Ignore away.

Well if the chinese goverments is one of the best, why don't you move there. They are one of the most oppressive goverments out there.. there not as oppressive as there southern neighbor but compare to the US there 10 fold on the oppressive scale! Lets see here, We stood up the south korean goverment.. now look at it! one of the fastest growing economies and a hell of a lot better then the north, now china stood up the nk gov.. but wait.. that place is a shithole, totally isolated! GO CHINA! and there  POLICE STATE.

China is also abysmal on human rights.  Call China one of the better governments out there right now is just crazy.

Well, the UN just imposed sanctions on NK by unanimous vote.  We'll see how the midget leader of NK responds.

With the same line Bruce Willis delivers before blowing up the plane in Die Hard 2.

i don't recall anyone blaming the clinton administration. it was all the liberals in this thread that wanted to blame bush. most others argued you cannot just blame one administration.

now that the TRUE FACTS are posted in the thread, all the liberals won't address them, and have suddenly stopped playing the blame game.

dealing with NK is not a black and white issue. you cannot trust them. and they are looking to extort a rich nation. the more countries you can get involved in talks and applying pressure, the better.

Bud Fox is glad liberals opinions cause so much consternation among the right wing sheep on this board. My first observation is to ask why you think Democrats should be presenting "plans" when it is the Republicans who are the ones who are actually in office? Bud Fox is sure if the Democrats had one ready, the Republicans would be grateful. It has become obvious to everyone that the big thing going on with the Republicans is that they have no plan, other than to blame things on whoever was president some six years ago as they run off to rehab for crimes and sex offensives.

It is amazing how like an alcoholic the GOP has become - first denial about Iraq, telling us all we were missing the good news and denial about how the president's policy of continually insulting and ignoring the North Koreans was "keeping us safe", coupled with continual blaming of others for one's own problems, like some one blaming one's parents for corrupting their "inner child".

The first thing to ask is, What was Bush's plan, other than to pour another cold one or line out another hit? It seemed to be to isolate and refuse to talk to the North Koreans, classifying them as members of the axis of evil even as usual he had no proof of any NK involvement in 9-11. He really had no sophisticated diplomatic plans at any time other than trying to use fear on these people by invading Iraq as he rattled his saber in their direction, utterly forgetting that the Koreans have fought us and fought us bravely, before and have little fear of doing so again. His father's diplomatic point man, James Baker, has even chastised him publicly for his refusal to engage in one on one diplomacy.

But if you want Bud Fox?s opinion, here it is, Bud Fox thinks the first thing we should do is fire Rice and Rumsfeld and get some people in there who know what they are doing.

Bud, I think you may be new to American politics.  Your claims are all back-assward.  To say the Republicans have no plan but to place blame is pretty ignorant and hypocritical for a liberal.  The reasons the liberals didn't run away with both houses and the presidency in 2002 is because they lacked any plan for Iraq.  Liberals are a very disorganized group.  The only thing they are organized on is placing blame on Bush for everything.  Hell there were some blaming Bush for Foley being a sexual predator.

You can see it in this thread as well.  The conservatives have stated ideas for proceeding and the liberals have all just placed blame.  It's funny how this board is such a good snapshot of the real world.

Then you make ignorant statements like "pour another one of line up another line".  The man tried coke in his early days.  So what?  Do you actually think he's a coke head?  I mean that's ridiculous.  Have you ever tried weed?  I know I did when I was younger.  Does it make me a pot head today.  Of course not.

Instead of just placing blame and throwing insults, why not discuss politics like a grown up and come to the table with some real opinion on what needs to be done?  And saying we should go into bilateral talks so we can be extorted by NK is a bit unintelligent.  Why should we put ourselves in a position to be extorted?  Why should we put ourselves in position where its us against them, one on one?  We are not their neighbors.  We are not the only country in the world.  We have no business getting involved.  Wasn't that your war cry leading up to Iraq?  You guys say "Fuck Bush" on this one.  I say "Fuck NK".  You seem to forget who the real enemy here is.  I think you want bilateral talks only because Bush wants 6 party talks.  If Bush goes bilateral talks and the US gets bribed, extortd and screwed, you all will be lambasting him for not getting other countries involved.  Bush is right on this one guys.  I know you'll never utter those words, but it's true.

It's early and I seem to be rambling, but one more thought.  We'll see real soon if the midget leader of NK was just blowing smoke.  The sanctions have been set.  One more nuclear test and the sanctions will be increased to include the possibility of war.  One thing is for sure, even if you hate Bush as most here do, he's not likely to lose a blinking contest to a man with Napolean's disease.

Charity dont even bother with this kid, He is so twisted and warped! Hes hates the U.S. He hates the Military, The same people who fought and died so he could spew the junk that he spits out. Common sense is thrown out the window when these people think. hes blinded by his hatred for the president and the country that he cant see the truth. Were not the bad guys! Were not the people who allowed a measly 2 million people die of starvation, were not the country who has an estimated 200,000 in concentration/work camps. but in his  mind we are the bad guys.

BF tries to provide an original idea, but still just ends up playing the blame game!!  :rofl: :rofl:
no thoughts on what america could do next.

so NK extorts america, continues to seek nuclear weapons, plays games, lies, and does not honor agreements. bush calls them on it (and if you didn't know NK was a major global threat already, you live under a rock), but bush is the bad guy? all because he called NK out on their actions?

hopefully the DEM leaders in washington have some true ideas since they will soon be in control. i think it's impossible for them to fumble THIS opportunity. control is waiting for them on a silver platter.

In desperate straits, the GOP has reverted to blaming the Clinton administration for its failed policy toward North Korea.

By Joe Conason


Oct. 13, 2006 |

North Korea's apparent nuclear blast exposed the incoherence not only of Bush administration foreign policy but of the Republican midterm political strategy as well. While White House underboss Karl Rove has long planned to win this November's elections on a "national security" platform questioning the strength and patriotism of the Democrats, the developments of the past several days have showed that the Republicans are in a reactive mode, unable to master the policy agenda, and reduced to flailing against their perennial target: They've reverted to blaming Bill Clinton.

Debating the Korea policy of the Clinton administration could hardly be what Rove had in mind when he designed his party's midterm strategy. His original plan, a variation on the successful blueprints used in the 2002 and 2004 elections, was to label the opposition "Defeatocrats" who would "cut and run" from the "war on terror," leaving the nation defenseless against bloodthirsty enemies. What Rove's plan obviously didn't contemplate was continually worsening circumstances in Iraq -- and stark proof of the resulting American military and diplomatic paralysis in defiant moves by North Korea and Iran. In an unusual moment of lucidity and candor, National Review's Jonah Goldberg confessed last Monday that Pyongyang's test -- although possibly a distraction from the Mark Foley mess -- undeniably represents "a failure of U.S. policy ... President Bush denounced the Axis of Evil five years ago and promised that he would do everything to keep its members from getting nukes. Well, North Korea just detonated one. Iran is well on its way to getting one. And Iraq, well, that's not quite the bright spot we hoped it would be." Not quite indeed, particularly with former pal Bob Woodward now denouncing the president for concealing the truth about Iraq from the American people and himself.

Still, it was startling to watch the Republicans respond to a boilerplate critical statement from Sen. Hillary Clinton by mounting a full-bore, multilevel assault on her husband's policies. At first, the White House refrained from "playing the blame game," as the president likes to say, and instead allowed surrogates to do the attacking. The first to step forward, unsurprisingly, was Sen. John McCain (or "Rove's poodle," as he is known without affection on a listserv I read). Speaking as if there had actually been nobody in charge at the White House, the State Department, the CIA and the Pentagon for the past five or six years, McCain excoriated the 1994 agreement negotiated between the Clinton administration and the North Korean regime as "a failure" that had rewarded Pyongyang repeatedly without achieving anything.

Swiftly following McCain's attack, the Republican National Committee began raking former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright as a stooge of Kim Jong Il. According to RNC chairman Ken Mehlman, the former secretary is somehow responsible for North Korean nukes because she shared a toast with the dictator and gave him an autographed basketball. This tactic was reminiscent of those old pictures of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein -- except that Albright had actually accomplished something when she talked with Kim.

Both McCain and Mehlman ignored the central achievement of the Clinton policy, which was to maintain monitoring of Pyongyang's plutonium supply for eight years -- and thus prevent the building of plutonium bombs or the transfer of those materials to other states or terrorist organizations. The North Koreans started a secret uranium enrichment program precisely because they could not use reprocessed plutonium to build weapons under the 1994 Agreed Framework. Since the Bush administration cast aside that process in 2002, Kim's scientists have been freed from the scrutiny of international inspection.

Whatever the merits or defects of Clinton's diplomacy in Asia, however, the political risks of focusing on that topic seem far greater than any potential rewards. Already once in this season the Republicans have learned (or should have learned) that angering the former president is unwise; he is far more popular than Bush is and considerably more skilled in argument than anyone on the other side, including McCain.

Even if Clinton's policy was completely misguided, why should any sane voter accept the notion that current policy problems are his fault? Didn't the mature statesmen and women of the Bush regime declare a clean break from the previous administration as soon as they assumed power? Where have they been since January 2001 and what have they been doing? What are they going to do now?

Coming from the Republicans as they face the increasing prospect of defeat in the midterm elections, the Clinton-bashing tactic stinks of political desperation and policy exhaustion. Flogging a "Big Dog" pi?ata may motivate the party's die-hard right-wing base -- but if that is Rove's objective four weeks before Election Day, he, his president and their party are in even greater trouble than the latest polls suggest.

Stooge!

Memo to BF:

Politicians on the right, place blame on the politicians on the left. and the reverse is also true.

these people are tied to one side or the other. and since their success or failure is very much tied to the success or failure of their party, they try to make their own party look good. and make the other party look bad.

it's call POLITICS. it's how the game is played.

glad i could help clear that up for you.  : ok:

Shock and Awe 2: Korean Boogaloo won't have the same cool look and feel as Bagdhad had since NK will be able to lob chemical and biological rounds at both US troops and SK cities causing massive kills. It will be a major buzzkill for the Freedom isn't Free multimedia shows that the Weepublicans like to show at church and fundraisers [redundancy] after every battle starts.

Those overlaid graphics that Chickenhawk shows with F16's and Shock and Awe bombs going off and Eagles just don't have the same "kick" when the headlines show 20,000 US Troops killed in first day of fighting and Seoul loses 200,000 in biological attack.

That Million Man Army, as funny as it may be to watch marching in parades, is a very dedicated military. It won't be the cakewalk that Iraq wa...wait a minute. If Iraq is still a problem after 1000 days.

Let Bud Fox ask you something.  Are you a complete DOLT?

Bush broke Clinton's plan, allowing NK to create nukes. While he was tripping over his panties at Tora Bora and letting Osama into Pakistan, NK was left unattended. Now we have a serious problem.

Your fascist Nazi cunt leader failed us.

Yea, you guys are a bunch of psychos and fascist fucks.



Read often, or at all?

Bud Fox did.  Fire those in charge now and get somebody in there that understands what the hell is going on. They have failed us already, and the world can not waste any more time with these assholes in office. Hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake. Iraq is a pig with a bikini on, and you think we should allow the framers of that mess take charge with NK?

Bush failed. But name a leader who didn't fail regarding North Korea? There isn't one.

If more people said what you have, this thread would have alot less nonscence on it.