Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Thought I'd start a thread devoted to oil prices. We are in a really bad situation. Granted the US is still paying less for oil than other countries, but it is getting really expensive. Particularly to those who's income depends on travel like myself.

So here is a thread where we can vent, come up with ideas, solutions and discuss how we can hold our leaders' feet to the fire on taking action to help the struggling economy, which oil prices, in my opinion, is directly affecting.

A little something to start things off.....

Oil hits another record high as dollar tumbles to record low

By PABLO GORONDI, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 46 minutes ago

Oil prices hit all-time highs above $115 a barrel Thursday with reports that oil and gasoline stocks in the United States were lower than expected and as the dollar hit record lows.
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Light, sweet crude for May delivery rose as high as $115.52 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange. It eased back to $115.23 a barrel by midday in Europe, up 30 cents.

On Wednesday, the contract settled at $114.93 a barrel.

In London, Brent crude futures were up 43 cents to $113.09 a barrel on the ICE Futures exchange in London.

Oil and other commodities continued to attract investors as the values of the dollar continued falling and as a hedge against inflation. A weaker dollar also makes oil cheaper to investors overseas.

The euro hit a new all-time high of $1.5982 on Thursday, its second record in as many days against the sagging greenback, and stood at $1.5966 by midday in Europe.

Concerns about sagging U.S. gasoline supplies ahead of the peak demand of the Northern Hemisphere summer also helped boost prices.

The U.S. Energy Department said Wednesday that inventories of gasoline fell 5.5 million barrels last week, a much bigger decline than forecast by analysts surveyed by Dow Jones Newswires.

Crude inventories fell 2.3 million barrels last week, the department's Energy Information Administration also reported, compared to the gain analysts expected.

"The market has focused on the substantial draw in gasoline in the U.S. and also the large crude oil draw," said Victor Shum, an energy analyst with Purvin & Gertz in Singapore. "The report has provided a knee-jerk reaction for the market and has driven oil to a new high."

The surge in oil prices reflected concerns about how much gasoline will be available during America's driving season.

But analysts said the U.S. inventory report also showed that the country's appetite for increasingly expensive gas is declining, noting that gasoline inventories remained at healthy levels despite the drop.

"Gasoline and crude inventories dropped primarily because refiners are not really ordering crude oil and they are also holding back on operating rates because demand is weak," Shum said. "The concerns about gasoline supply in the summer may be overdone."

The EIA report also said inventories of distillates, which include heating oil and diesel, unexpectedly rose last week by about 100,000 barrels. Analysts had expected a sharp decline.

In other Nymex trading, gasoline futures rose 2.92 cents to $2.9682 a gallon while heating oil futures gained 1.63 cents to $3.2993 a gallon. Natural gas prices were up 1.7 cents to $10.450 per 1,000 cubic feet.

You voted for it twice.

Enjoy it.

you didnt....and you still get to enjoy it...that brings me such joy... :hihi:

Something intelligent to add to this discussion rather than  attacking me would be a bit more meaningful. Then again you have no respect for those who do not agree with you and a lot of your criticisms are indeed meaningless..

One problem we have not built a refinery in the last 30 years. More refining capability would boost output. That is something that Democrats have opposed.

Also, more domestic oil production would lessen our reliance on imported oil. Recent discoveries of large sources in North Dakota may help in the long run.

Alternative energy sources such as Hydrogen and electric vehicles would be and should be a big part of the plan.

Obama voted for it too!


"I don't take money from oil companies."

What Obama doesn't tell you is that "no candidate does....they cant," according to the Annenberg Center's Factcheck.org...It's been against the law for companies to donate to candidates for a hundred years.

Listen to Barack Obama some more.

"Now Exxon's making forty billion dollars a year and we're paying three fifty for gas."

Obama also doesn't mention that he voted for the Bush Cheney energy bill.

It was called a pi?ata of perks and the best energy bill corporations could buy.

Hillary Clinton voted against that bill.

Obama fails to mention alot of things....

Oil companies can't donate to campaigns but individuals in high places in Oil companies can.

If I am not mistaken some of these oil  related "individuals" have donated to Obama's campaign.

you're right. i was unaware of that.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_oil_spill.html

In a new ad, Obama says, "I don?t take money from oil companies."

Technically, that's true, since a law that has been on the books for more than a century prohibits corporations from giving money directly to any federal candidate. But that doesn?t distinguish Obama from his rivals in the race.

We find the statement misleading:

- Obama has accepted more than $213,000 from individuals who work for companies in the oil and gas industry and their spouses.

- Two of Obama's bundlers are top executives at oil companies and are listed on his Web site as raising between $50,000 and $100,000 for the presidential hopeful.

one other interesting point.....McCain voted against the energy bill.

My mother was visiting from the UK - we worked out that gas/petrol is around $11/gallon over there right now.

Holy shit! I would imagine things are even more difficult for the Brits. Are there any counter measures the UK are trying to implement to address that?

Hey Punk, is that Bush's fault also?

Not really, it's always been expensive as long as I remember. It hit 1 pound/gallon back in the 70s I think (=$2/gallon), and in '94 the last time I was working/driving there it was over $5/gallon. Less than a third is the cost of oil, duty/tax is close to two thirds and the rest is profit for the retailer/supplier- that's around 10%

Actually, I just worked it out again and it's really just over $8/gallon there right now.

Also, the weak dollar makes the prices sound a little crazier than they really are.

I'm not attacking you. But you voted for a president who created a shit storm smack dab in the middle east. Speculation of unrest alone, can cause a spike in prices, and we're well beyond that. There are plenty of other factors, but political "tensions" play a role in it all, you better believe it.

What was the price of oil per barrel when Bush began his term?

What is it now?




That includes tax for healthcare and other services as well, correct?


What brings you joy?

You don't see my complaining about any of it. I hope it goes higher. It may wake some people the fuck up.

I honestly don't know what the petrol duty is used for, or if it just goes into the treasury. They pay national insurance which is an income linked tax of (I think 11% these days) which funds the national health service, state pensions, unemployment and disability benefits. I guess that's like the payroll taxes we pay here for social security and medicaid/care. But I only worked there less than 2 years in total, and a long time ago, so I really don't know exactly how the system works.

 Gas prices are affecting everybody from their immediate travel expenses down to freight costs on pretty much all goods. 

People are becoming more aware of the fact we need to get off our addiction to middle eastern oil. It is an economic and a national security issue as well.

It's not enough yet to make a difference.

I've been saying this for years now, and as usual you guys are late to the table. If I remember last time I brought this all up, everybody on the right (wrong) side of the aisle called me names, and told me oil would last forever. That if Americans wanted to be wasteful, that was their right to do so. Being wasteful is yet another reason we are where we are today.

A big factor is that nations such as China and India are becoming more affluent than previous years, two of the largest populations of the world. More people are now able to afford cars and the demand is affecting the supply side of the world's oil production.

why in the blue HELL can't we dig for oil in alaska and utah ???

Alaska is a touchy thing. Its one of the last places in this country where vast areas remain untouched by development. An oil spill could ruin an ecosystem there. Anwar so desolate we wouldn't have the means to respond quickly and in great numbers to any accident.

The lower 48 obviously has the infrastructure to handle any crisis fairly quickly should something happen, so why we are not drilling for oil in Utah if it indeed  has any large reserves is beyond me.

because the far left environmentalist douchebags wont let us....

Like I said, that's part of it.

But instability in the middle east is also a large part of it.

And...who created that cluster fuck again? Who created the unrest? What is happening in the middle east (ie Iraq) right now? What could it possibly be that would cause speculation to run rampant? Hmmmm.....let me think here.

(I really gotta draw it out of you guys, I know, it's like pulling teeth...the denial is amazing... :rofl:)



The oil supply in Alaska would feed about a years supply to our enormous demand, it's not worth it.



Another reason is simply cost. It is becoming more expensive (in some areas) to extract the oil than it would return. Scary stuff indeed.

So is anybody here changing their personal habits to help reduce our dependency on oil?

ShadowX? Sandman? GnRFl?

What are you doing?

The President certainly has not lived up to my expectations, and yes I did vote for him twice. Congratulations for dragging that out of me. However, regarding oil prices its only a very small part of it.

Punk....We all know you hate Bush, we get it ( yawn)


My income depends on travel, I have an on service business. I didn't do a whole lot of unnecessary travel before prices rose.

im doing absolutely nothing...im going to buy a new mustang or Jeep wrangler in a few months...and burn gas like a motherfucker... and i leave my lights on all day everyday and fall asleep with the computer and tv on EVERY night.... : ok:   but at least im being honest with ya...

When Bush got into office, oil was around 26 a barrel.

Now futures are hitting 115.




His foreign policies had plenty to do with it.

Then you are part of the problem.

LOL, take a gander GnRFl, there is another part of your high gas prices: Increased demand spawned from a wasteful attitude.



Funny, I always took you for a liar.

haha that would be you actually....but its ok...youre a liberal its expected....

there is nothing that pisses me off more than these self absorbed assholes driving around in their hybrid cars are telling everyone how they save gas and electricity....the only answer is to GET OFF OF OIL COMPLETELEY...we have had the technology to go solar since the Kennedy administration...but NEITHER  ill say that again...NEITHER party has done it...its funny how billionaire George Soros or some other powerful liberal doesnt spearhead a campaign to come up with a new energy source....all they do is sit around make documentaries about it and jerk eachother off at fundraising events while nothing changes...but wait i forgot...its my fault...i left the tv on...

Oh yea? What do I lie about?


I never understood the anger towards prius drivers. You guys always type this exact sentence (talk about brainwashing.) I have NEVER met a prius owner who behaved in such a way. I must conclude that it is your guilty conscious that helps form this observation.



Plenty of people are doing what they can to lower our dependency on oil. Obviously it is not all or nothing, as you like to portray it.

If you have a wasteful attitude towards energy, then your waste helps create more demand for it, just like all the others who view it as a infinite resource. Absolutely.

Yea.

Besides your driving habits...

What are you doing to help lower (y)our dependency on oil?

 I know you are wasteful, you seem proud of it (which is kind of sad) but let me ask you, why? Why would you chose to be wasteful with energy? Ultimately it costs you more money each month/year, right? And ultimately it is one part (of many things) that push market prices higher.

So why are you so proud of your ability to squander a finite resource? And why do you?

Oil is run by a cartell.  It is not a "free market".  Until a cartell stops limiting supply while demand increases, we are fucked.

This has very little to do with "Bush."

OPEC is a fucking scam.

The shit will go down after the elections, like clockwork.

Many say India and China are driving the price up.  Their expansion is not Bush's fault.

Increased demand, limited supply.  Has nothing to do with bush. 

Countries that try to sell Oil outside of cartel can't hang.

Has anyone seen the house of that Saudi Prince?  Its fucking disgusting.  Anyone seen Dubai? 

This is all about money and greed and stock share holders.   They are all loving it. 

Oil needs to be taken off futures market maybe.  Its fucking rediculous.  Why should fear dictate oil prices.  Adjust when bad shit happens.  How is fuel in a barrell raised and the price at the pump goes up instantly?  It takes 18 months for fuel to go from barrel to pump.  18 fucking months.  But it only takes 2 second for the price to go up.  Look at that spread.  They are fucking killing it. 

Then you will hear all this bs about refinery capacity and other shit.  Its all bull shit.  People are getting so rich off this cartel produced rigged  market. 

What other industry can change the price by screaming "fire" or increase demand by limiting output (supply) to increase price.  I mean what if our power company or water companies did this?  Holy fucking shit.  How about we put water on the futures market and say, "Oh, terrorists are going to pollute our water supply with toxins" and the price sky rocket.  What other market can price go up of "speculation" alone and very little fact needed?  This is the biggest scam in the history of the world. 

You contradicted yourself in that post.

And you created a false argument to attack.

You talking to me?

Yes, you insinuate several times that Bush is being held solely responsible for the price point, which is not true.

You also claim that Bush's policies are irrelevant, then turn around and ask why fear should dictate the price of oil.

Bush being just another of Exxons puppets, where do you draw the line?

Oil has become the new diamonds. Plenty to go around, but with a cartel manipulating prices up.

Is that a thing for you slc, blaming it all on one man? You think anything will change, for the better, come November?

i don't do a thing. it doesn't even cross my mind.

i need to know exactly how my sacrifices would help. i need things quantified.

and i figure the sooner we run out of oil, the sooner we put pressure on the world to find alternative sources. so in a way i feel like i'm helping the situtation. 

I wasn't blaming BUSH!  I was saying he "isn't" soley responsible.

Also, he doesn't create the fear for oil.  Infact, that region is more stable now that it was during the Hezbolah/Israeli battle, but oil was cheaper then. 

The cartel, OPEC, are the ones fucking us and rigging the numbers and using China and India as the excuse every time.  Now, along with OPEC, the Oil companies responsibility to stock share holders is the other problem.

Yeah, but the question is: Are you including the taxes when considering that price.

Because, if you are, you're comparing the UK price vs a deflated dollar.....that doesn't help....but you're also not taking into account the "perks" they're getting for paying that elevated price. 

Things like health care, for example.

Edit...oops...I see this was talked about a couple posts down from the original.  Nevermind.

I don't think Hybrids are that great for the environment.

Every night you plug it in to recharge it's battery, you're burning a great deal of electricity, and in turn, polluting the environment.

So ultimately, what you're saving by not buying as much gas, will instead go to paying off your now rather large hydro bill at the end of every month.

No, that's a 100% electric car, or the OLD hybrid (battery) tech.

The newer hybrids recharge their batteries on their own, during movement/braking.  No plugging required.  They run off gas engines over a certain speed, and electric engines during slower speeds/idle. 

If you do a LOT of city driving, they're great for the environment (and you wallet) because their mpg is stellar.  If you do a LOT of highway driving....they are a marginal improvement on gas mileage (sometimes a bit better than marginal..depends on the vehicle class, etc).  But, that being said....everything helps from an environmental standpoint.  The issue has been (and still is) getting the consumer to pay a premium for the tech if they are not going to see a MARKED improvement on mpg (mainly highway drivers, for example).

Thanks for the clarification Pilferk :beer:

I was under the impression that all hybrids still needed to be plugged in to recharge their battery.

I'm not saying you were.



You are part of the problem.

The electric car was squashed back in the late 90s-Big oil shut the whole thing down. . They would not even allow the models to stay on the road. GM took them back and demolished them. They had a range of 120 miles a charge, were fast, and sporty.

Imagine how much oil we could save by using solar panels to provide electricity to our homes and charge our cars at night?

The missus was just at a convention that showcased an electric care being introduced into America, made in Mexico. That doesn't strike my fancy right now, but it's good to see them on the horizon again.

My goal in the next 2-5 yrs is have solar panels for the house and a diesel vehicle. If I can get in on an electric vehicle, I would do it in a heartbeat. Currently our water and electric bills run half of what the average is, and I think there are still areas we can improve.

Conservation is the key, it's also a way of showing you are thankful. Waste is arrogant and pig headed.

So, you all want the government to fix this for you, without taking any personal responsibility for your consumption, waste, or the foreign policies you advocate?

Just like health care, cheap oil is not guaranteed to you. Please don't start a thread looking for a handout or sympathy. Pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and quit making excuses.

probably cause those douchbags drive fuckin hybrids, the number one leader in smug emissions >:(

na, part of the solution.  : ok:

let's get off our dependency on oil instead.

A hell of a lot of production comes from Alaska. If you are referring to the North Slope, That field has enough oil to fuel the nation for only two weeks. Why fuck up that area for a two week supply when it won't really help eliminate any dependence.

Eventually, it will be developed. There is only about 40-50 years worth of oil left on the planet.

Regarding the Green River Basin oil shales: The process to crack that stuff will release a tremendous amount of CO₂ into the environment; excaserbating an already critical situation.

The future energy demands will be met by the dissociation of water( Hydrogen fuel cells). That is where the research is at. It is a win/win.

How are you part of the solution?

Ahmadinejad Says Oil at $115 a Barrel is Too Low, Calls for Higher Prices

Saturday, April 19, 2008


TEHRAN, Iran ?  Iran's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was quoted Saturday as saying crude oil prices at $115 a barrel are too low, and that oil must "discover its real value."

Oil prices have hit all-time highs above $115 a barrel in recent weeks, amid reports that oil and gasoline stocks in the United States were lower than expected and as the dollar sinks to record lows.

"The oil price of $115 a barrel in today's global markets is a deceiving figure. Oil is a strategic commodity that needs to discover its real value," the Web site of Iran's state-run television quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

The Iranian president made the remarks during a visit to an oil and gas exhibition in Tehran late Friday.

Crude oil futures surged to a new trading record of $117 a barrel Friday following an attack on a key pipeline in Nigeria. The rise capped a week of record highs fueled by supply woes and the dollar's weakness relative to other major currencies.

Ahmadinejad said despite the surge in oil prices, the economic value of crude oil is currently less than what it was in 1980.

"While the price of other commodities have increased, the economic value of the current oil price is even less than 1980," he said.

Ahmadinejad accused Western industrialized nations of "selfishness" in their quest for cheaper oil.

"When they get hold of oil, they assume that oil is a free commodity and belongs to them and has wrongly been placed in other territories... This is the spirit of selfishness and arrogance," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying.

A host of supply and demand concerns in the U.S. and abroad, along with the dollar's weakness, have bolstered oil prices, even as record retail gasoline prices in the U.S. appear to be dampening demand.

A stronger dollar makes commodities such as oil less attractive to investors as a hedge against inflation, and it makes oil more expensive to investors overseas. Analysts believe the weaker dollar is the primary reason oil has soared well past $100 a barrel this year. But the effect tends to reverse when the greenback gains ground.

Ahmadinejad called the U.S. currency "a handful of paper" without any global support.

Iran has stopped using the U.S. dollar in its oil transactions with the outside world, switching to other non-dollar currencies such as Euro.

"The dollar is not money any longer but a handful of paper distributed in the world without commodity support," the Web site quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351789,00.html

You and Ahmadinejad agree on something!  :hihi:

So what are you doing to help lower your energy consumption?

Nothing I guess huh?

Please.

The failure of fellow human beings to comply to your utopia might give you some personal satisfaction, but...does it solve the issue?

Let's put the money where the mouth is. If there is an energy problem, perceived or real, who is the enabler? The working man doing what he can to keep his place warm, or big business and their public office minions out to make an additional buck on your ignorance/fear?

Or to put it real simple: Do you beat up your colleague or your boss when the check fails?

We need to lower out demand for oil while the powers that be look for an alternative energy source. In the meantime, it would behoove us to adopt energy efficient lifestyles. Americans are incredibly wasteful with their energy use at home, and in the cars they drive. It is just as much their responsibility as the next guy.

I know you like to blame your secret societies for the ills of the world, but often times we can, and should, start with ourselves.

Anybody else, is making excuses, and that's what I see here. Citizens who want solutions, but aren't willing accept that they are part of the problem. So here we sit, stuck in square one.

I have already answered your question. I do not do any unnecessary driving, no joy rides, recreational travel or day trips anymore for me, only what is necessary to put food on my table. I simply can not afford it.

What are you doing to help lower energy consumption?????

Energy consumption is not limited to,or centered around your car, that's why I am asking.

I've been vocal in many threads about what I do to lower my energy consumption. I don't feel like writing it all up again, especially since it won't matter. I can tell you that I do, and that my bills, just from being mindful can be up to 1/4 (electric) to 1/2 (water) of what my neighbors average. I will continue to do more as time marches on, hopefully I can be 80-90 percent off the grid within 2-5 yrs.

You really should read "What's The Matter With Kansas?"

If a thread ever mirrored a book....

i'm far more concerned about water than oil.

So do you take steps to cut down on your water use?

This is deserving for another thread on the subject.

It is a serious problem that is coming in the not too distant future.

just worry about yourself. and try to have some modesty for once.

and instead of worrying about being smarter than others, or being "right" all the time, or doing more than the evil republicans, try to be happy with yourself just knowing that you're doing what you're comfortable with to help out.

What a cop out.

I don't see it that way.  Seems like you're itching for an argument for arguments sake.

Either that or you are conducting a survey  :hihi:

Yet another cop out.

Hey listen, you come here asking for solutions, I'm providing the answers we have RIGHT NOW for this problem. Adopting this outlook saves you money and helps lower our dependence. I guess it's better to just sit around and bitch about it instead huh?

I 100% agree.

The hybrids are a great situational stop gap right now.  I wish they worked for me...I'd be in one in a heartbeat.

Instead, I drive the best MPG car that fits my needs (AWD) that I can find, considering I do mostly highway driving.....and keep my eye out for new tech that will work better for me.

The next step is to find another source of heat for our house.  We chose oil back in 2001, when we commissioned our house to be built, because it was the cheapest and, I though, most efficient option available to us (the other being electric).  I'm starting to seriously reconsider that option, and might be converting over this next summer....we'll see.

I'm scared to ask what those heating bills are?

Radiant floor heating is the way to go.  You can keep the thermostat about 5 degrees lower and still feel just as comfortable.  It's amazing how much warmer you feel so long as your feet are warm.   :hihi:

We were VERY lucky this year.  We locked in in July at 2.39 a gallon.  We're currently robbing our oil company blind and paying about $140 a month (over 10 months).

Our lock in ends May 1st.  Our price will jump up to about 3.69 a gallon.  Ou payments will end up, assuming THAT price (and I bet it'll be closer to $4 a gallon,  by the time we can lock in in July, again), to be around 220 a month...or more than a 50% increase over this past year.

I'm considering moving to electric...which I hate, but...our monthly electric bill tops out around $120 to $130 a month (keep in mind...family of 5 with a stay at home mom and 3 YOUNG kids), in the heat of summer, with our AC's running.  We'd made the house (from light bulbs to appliances) as energy efficient as possible with out going solar or using alternative energy.  If we go electric heat, in CT you pay a lower rate.  What I need to do is figure out what the cost increase would be in electricity + cost of conversion compared to the cost of oil heating over the next 5 to 10 years.

I may have to bite the bullet and pay the oil prices for now...I don't know yet.  It's the question we're going to tackle in the next month or so......I HATE going to electric heat, but we're not candidates for natural gas in our area so our options are pretty limited.

George, that sounds like a great idea!   : ok:

We love radiant floor heating...but it just doesn't work well as a "retro fit".  It also seems to work best in "solid" flooring applications...otherswise you lose some efficiency......which wouldn't work for our structure.   We considered it when building.  We've got a full (finished) basement, so the ground floor and the upper floors are on sticks (with pressed support joist/beams).

Either way, you still need a way to heat the water....electricity or oil.

Or you use electric panels...

I know its too late now, but if I had the money I would do a spray foam insulation that makes the house air tight.  Its amazing.  However, on a house I just finished, the quote was $27,000 to do it.  The quote for traditional insulation was $3,500.  So look how long you would have to live in home to make up difference!

Have you atleast switched to the tankless water heater that way it only comes on when you need it?

How much is a conversion to electric?

Do you have those? Right now, I just keep my water heater off, only switch it on ten minutes before a shower, turning it back off before I even get in. I like the coil method and will be installing soon, or my "final" house.


27k is a big chunk of change. I guess they would have to show you what your percentage of savings would be, in order to figure out the savings on the back end.

We didn't switch.  That's what we had put in the house when we built it.

The furnace, at the time, was also the single most fuel efficient model we could find.  That's how we heat our house, bathe our kids, do 5 people's worth of laundry and dish washing for somewhere around 60 - 75 gallons of fuel per month in the dead of winter.  That, and high end digital thermostats with timed programs.

We did spray foam in all our exterior walls (except in the basement...that'd be pointless), and the floor in the area over the garage.

Traditional fiberglass "pink panther" through the rest of the house.

Double paned "energy efficient" (ie: allow heat transfer INTO the house, but not OUT of the house) windows throughout the house.

We really did try to keep all this in mind when we built.

Wow, you did great!!!!!  Nice. 

My customers looooover their tankless water heaters.  The only downfall is if power goes out, you are out of luck because it does require a 110 amp outlet to power the ignitor. 

Ours is awesome.  "Instant" hot water....takes maybe 30 seconds to get hot water to the top floor.  I heard every pitch in the book from our plumber  when we were building as to why we should get a tank, rather than go tankless.  We'd have long waits for hot water.  It wouldn't get as hot. Etc. Etc.  All of it has turned out to be untrue.  I told our GC that either the plumber was going to do it our way, or we'd have to find a new plumber to do the job because we KNEW we wanted to go with tankless.


The difference between the cost of fiberglass insulation (with good vapor barrier, etc) of sufficient R factor to be what we wanted vs spray foam was pretty negligible.  NOT 27k.....not, I don't think, even 3k.  I'll have to revisit to check...I know it was more, but I don't think it was MUCH more ($-wise.  % wise, maybe). Our house is about 2500 sq ft-ish...pretty straight forward colonial "box", so nothing too tricky.  And the nice thing about spray foam is that, should ANYTHING get by the exterior wall...water, wind..whatever, for any reason, the spray foam will continue to actually DO it's job while the fiberglass will get wet and disintigrate or get shredded by wind/air flow.

  A retrofit, I'm sure, would be EXPENSIVE since you're talking about ripping holes in drywall, removal of the old fiberglass, and then spray.  That'd be a manually intensive nightmare.

Yeah, that was one the plumber pointed out, too.   It was a drawback I could live with, all things considered.

Luckily we don't lose power often. 

I don't know yet.

We're going to have a contractor out to take a look in early May.

I'm hoping less than 10k.

To be clear, I'm not going to completely dump the oil.  I'd go dual fuel.  I'm not sure HOW we'd implement that quite yet.  The guy we have coming out seems to have some good ideas, at least in talking to him, but he needs to see our physical set up first.

Pilferk, you should look into wood stoves.

Wood pretty much never goes up in price, and it's alot more environmentally friendly than burning oil to heat the ol' homestead.

Oil prices up to 117, after an attack on a Japanese oil tanker.

That's driven on fear of instability in that region.

See a pattern here?

These days someone passes gas in the Middle East, and oil prices go up :hihi:

Nope.  Won't do it.

I grew up in a house with a wood stove.  They make everything in the house smell like smoke, they take CONSTANT attention to keep the fire going and, quite frankly, a cord of wood (cut and split) up here in the NE would run me roughly what my oil bill does in a month.  Considering the stove would need to go pretty much 24/7 (remember, stay at home wife with 3 kids), I'd go through a LOT of wood.  And my wife would be tied to the stove.

It's also not real envirnomentally friendly because you can't burn the stuff that grows fast.  Or, at least, you can't heat your house on it.  You're burning pine or oak, mostly....neither of which I consider to get high marks in "replenishability".


I love wood stoves and wood fire places for atmosphere.......even as a part time heating suppliment for specific areas of a house.  But as a full time solution....No way.  It sucks.

There is a psychological type of comfort that comes from a fireplace or woodstove too. I'd have one as an extra source of heat in my home or cabin.

It was something we talked about when we built, but ultimately decided to pass on...for a variety of reasons.  Our lots are long and narrow,and adding the chimney to the side of the house we would have needed to add it on to would have caused some configuration "issues" with the house and more importantly some zoning "issues" that we didn't want to have to tackle (because our zoning board considers the chimney as "occupied space....don't get me started....and putting it on the side of our house put us 14 feet 9 inches from our neighbors unattached "garage"...which our zoning board wanted to consider as an occupied "out building" of our neighbors house.....so they considered the set up a zoning violation since we have to be 15 feet between occupied spaces).

My dad was a stone mason, when I was growing up, and I worked summers (and some winters) with him and his crew.  I could practically BUILD the chimney/flu/fireplace in brick or fieldstone.  It was a toughie for me to give that up when we were building (not the doing it myself...just the having it), and was one of the LAST things we eliminated and only after having a round of "discussions" with our local zoning board.

Well that being said, my Father had his house built in Texas with a wood stove, and never uses the thing in the winter. Thinks it is too much of a hassle, like you said.

Has your history with stone work ever come in handy as an adult for you?

Edit (My AC just kicked in, hahaha.)

Edit 2: That also reminds me of our heat recovery system on our AC. It takes the heat generated and heats our water up with it. I will not have to turn the water heater on for about 6 months out of the year.

Yup.  From a homeowners perspective it's saved me a bundle.

I did our exterior sidewalk from the front stoop to the driveway (brick in dead sand).

I've done all our brick edging and planters in our yard.

I've done a blue stone patio and walkway in the back yard, as well as setting up a couple of nice hard scape seating areas in our backyard, near garden areas.

I've also tackled drainage in our backyard...something I learned to do when putting in fieldstone walls.

I've also done some projects for our neighbors, and my mom....saving them a bundle, too.

We only use our stove 6 months out of the year, and leave the windows open the other 6 months, so any "smoke smell" disappears really quickly in the spring time.

Even in the winter time, I don't even notice a "smoke smell" unless I'm outside within distance of the chimney to tell you the truth.

Once you've got a bed of coals going, the stove doesn't really require any attention at all.

As for cost, wood is incredibly cheap if you cut and split it yourself.

Me and my Dad live out in farm country, and many farmers will let us cut down, and split up trees they don't want anymore, only charging us a mere $40/quart.

But if you don't have the time to cut it down, and split it yourself, as I'm sure a family man like yourself probably doesn't; it would probably cost almost the same as your gas bill, as you said it would.

As for your point about environmental friendliness, yeah, we're burning pine and oak.

Sure it doesn't get huge marks in "replenish-ability" as you said, but there is no foreseeable shortage of pine and oak here in Canada.

As for emissions, it's most certainly more environmentally friendly than burning oil 24/7.

It's in the mid 70's up here, in CT today.  Not quite AC weather YET.  Gorgeous weekend, though.

I wish our AC unit had something more than just being energy efficient.  That might be something I swap out, soon, too. 

My wife's mother has one.  Dead of summer, every window in the place opened up wide...I can still smell the smoke in the soft goods (furniture, rugs, etc) when I walk into her house. 

In the winter, I could tell you when she's stopped to visit us before my wife says a word...I can smell the smoke lingering in the air.

It's not a BAD thing....it's just not something I would want in my house.  It would...annoy is not the right word....distract me. 

Maybe it's me.  Maybe it's something that, when you're used to it, you don't notice it.  I don't know.  But I know that I've ALWAYS been "sensitive" to that smell...even at my Dad's when I was a kid growing up.  It's what he heated his whole house with.....the electric heat was turned on only if it was colder than a witches tit.


Other than feeding it, you mean?  Getting up once or twice a night to stuff it full so it doesn't burn down to nothing (or get cold)?

Too much attention, for me.



Bingo and Bango.

While I will admit I live in the rural part of NW CT, there's still not many places that will let you go chop down their trees and haul them away. 

And as you rightly point out, I don't have the time to cut it and split it, even if they did.  Between work and my commute, I'm out of the house 10 hours+ a day.  I suppose I could make time, if I had to.  But I'd choose not to have to (well, I did choose, really).


No, probably not down here in CT either.  But CT is starting to lose it's forests a lot faster than I'd like.  I guess I don't want to contribute to that unless I have no better option. 


Absolutely true.  Though we do use a clean burning, very fuel efficient furnace, which helps some.

Yeah, I've probably grown used to it, and don't even notice it anymore.

It's kind of like someone who smokes cigarettes.

They can't smell it, but everyone who doesn't smoke can.


 :rofl:


Just put a big chunk of wood on the fire before you go to bed so you won't have to get up in the night.

"All nighters" me and my Dad call them ;)

Saw that a Norwegian company will also have an electric car in the US by the end of this year and that Nissan and one other (can't remember) are developing one right now. Could you imagine running solar panels and and electric car? That would be awesome.

Oil hit 118 so far today too.

You give me an AWD electric car with a range of around 200 miles on a charge (I go about 120 miles, round trip, to work every day), at about 75 mph and I'd be on it like white on rice.

Give me a hybrid AWD/4WD that gets better than 35 to 40 mpg on the highway and, likewise, I'd be on it like white on rice.

I often wonder why Suburu hasn't entered the hybrid market.  They (along with Toyota, who has) seem like no brainer entries.  I know Subie had an issue with making their electric motor cost effective, but that was 2 years ago!   ::)

On the positive side of things....I've managed to convince the powers that be to let me telecommute 2 days a week starting in July.  That'll cut my gas use almost in 1/2.  2/5, obviously, to be exact.

I think the price of oil will push many car makers into that segment very soon.

I was planning on holding my car until 2010-12, until I saw a diesel (love the smell, haha) alternative but now I am going to add electric as an option. The only thing I am concerned with, as far as electric is concerned, would be safety.

We'll see!

Happy Earth Day!  ;D

I know someone that installed a wood furnace that is located outside; about 20m from the house. The thing will go for 12 hours without having to be fed.

Another lady built a passive solar design. It has a wood furnace in the basement for those really cold nights. but this lady rarely pays for heat. Got solar panels on the roof, so water is also free.

What we do to save energy:
1. bought the wife a Prius, she gets 51-55 mpg
2. insulated the hell out of the attic
3. caulked the house all the way around, every year
4. I drive slower, and take off more gently from stop lights
5. I go into the office only 2-3 days a week and work at home a lot
6. We combine errands so that one trip can get 7-8 things done
8. put a heat blanket around the hot water heater
9. caulked the electrical outlets
10. sealed the leaks in the duct pipes that carry hot and cold air
11. close the blinds in the afternoon in the summer and keep them open in the winter
12. get a programable thermostat and set is way high in the summer when no one is home, and way low in the winter when no one is home
13. wear sweaters in the winter to keep the thermostat lower
14. have good ceiling fans that run all year round, they really help!
15. collect rain water and also water from the shower as it heats up, using it for plants in the yard
16. starting composting our waste

Call us tree huggers, as the derogatory term goes, BUT:

Our energy bills are a fraction of the neighbors.

Wow, that's pretty darn good! I didn't know they returned that high MPG.



Me too, I putt putt, in the right lane now, and leave ten minutes early so I'm never in a rush.


They help us in the summer especially. We can set the thermo higher and the fans are great. It also allows us to put off using the AC by about a month. Warm with the fans on, is still comfortable in our house.



We just started our compost pile in our back yard.

Should be getting a container for rain collection next month (rainy season is coming up.)



Saving money means more time for YOU. Cutting down on emissions and waste is good for everybody IMO.

Oil prices up on word US ship fired on boats in Persian Gulf (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080425/oil_prices.html)

More middle east tension causing the price of crude to swing up....

Oil speculators use ANY excuse to raise prices...

Any old excuse, like conflict in an oil rich area....

When was the last time conflict wasn't in a oil rich  area?

I'm thinking it was March of 03

Watch for the Fed to cut rates again to save Bush's casino economy. When that happens, it will beat the American dollar down even more, and push crude up.

This whole fucking economy is a house of cards that is going to collapse soon. Europe and China are keeping it afloat for now, but soon their bills will come due, and the whole fucking mess will come down like an avalanche.

Oil prices slide as the dollar extends its gains

Thursday, May 01, 2008

By JOHN WILEN, AP Business Writer


NEW YORK ?  Another jump in the dollar and the end of an oil workers' strike in Nigeria sent crude prices falling Thursday as speculators who drove crude futures to nearly $120 pulled out of the market. Retail gas prices, meanwhile, rose to a new record above $3.62 a gallon.

The dollar's rise against the euro and other currencies stripped away some of oil's appeal to investors who have been betting for months that the greenback would continue to falter. When the greenback gains ground, commodities such as oil lose their value as a hedge against inflation, prompting selling. Also, a stronger dollar makes oil more expensive to investors overseas.

As the dollar has strengthened this week, oil futures have dropped more than $7 from their highs to their lowest levels since April 14. On Thursday, light, sweet crude for June delivery fell 94 cents to settle at $112.52 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange, after trading as low as $110.30. Meanwhile, the euro bought $1.5457 in afternoon trading, down from $1.5642 late Wednesday.

Meanwhile, a strike that cut production at an Exxon Mobil Corp. facility in Nigeria ended Thursday, giving investors another reason to sell. Oil prices jumped last week on word of the strike and a separate labor action in Scotland, which ended Tuesday. Nigeria is a major U.S. oil supplier.

Analysts caution that oil's swoon could be temporary. The dollar's protracted decline has been a major factor behind oil's rise from about $64 a year ago, and future dollar weakness could easily push crude futures above $120.

"It's all about the dollar," said James Cordier, president of Tampa, Fla., trading firms Liberty Trading Group and OptionSellers.com. "I don't think the dollar is going to stay strong."

Indeed, oil prices rebounded more than $2 from their lows late in Thursday's trading session after the dollar stopped gaining ground against the euro.

The dollar's recent gains have come on a view that the Federal Reserve's interest rate cutting campaign is nearing its end; lower interest rates tend to weaken the dollar. The Fed cut rates a quarter percentage point on Wednesday, and did not give a clear indication of its future plans. But with the benchmark federal funds rate at 2 percent, investors sense that the Fed can't cut rates much further.

"It's not going to be zero (percent), it's not going to be a half (percent)," Cordier said.

However, other nations' central banks are considering raising interest rates, actions that could further weaken the dollar, Cordier said. If that happens, or if there is a major supply disruption, crude prices could easily rise to $130 in June, he said, and that could push gas prices to $4 a gallon.

At the pump, the average national price of a gallon of regular gas rose 0.6 cent to a record $3.623 Thursday, according to a survey of stations by AAA and the Oil Price Information Service. Diesel prices inched 0.1 cent higher to a record $4.251 a gallon. Gas prices are already higher than $4 in many parts of the country, including in California and Hawaii.

Despite crude's recent declines, gas prices are likely to keep rising for a while. Crude's rapid rise over the past year has squeezed refinery profit margins; refiners must pay for the oil they refine into fuel, but have been unable to raise gas prices fast enough to keep up with crude. While oil prices are up about 73 percent in the last year, gas prices are only up 22 percent.

On Thursday, Exxon Mobil Corp. reported a first quarter profit of $10.9 billion, but missed analyst expectations. The company said significantly lower worldwide refining margins reduced earnings by about $1 billion in the quarter.

Analysts expect gas prices to peak within the next two months.

In other Nymex trading Thursday, June heating gasoline futures fell 2.81 cents to settle at $2.8782 a gallon, and June heating oil futures fell 4.03 cents to settle at $3.1177 a gallon. June natural gas futures fell 28.2 cents to settle at $10.561 per 1,000 cubic feet. The Energy Department said natural gas inventories rose by 86 billion cubic feet last week, more than many analysts had expected.

In London, June Brent crude futures fell 86 cents to settle at $110.50 a barrel on the ICE Futures exchange.

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008May01/0,4670,OilPrices,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008May01/0,4670,OilPrices,00.html)

I'm going to guess the dollar rose because the Fed hinted that this would be their last cut.

We'll see.....



Not according to these guys.

According to them the economy is healthy, debt is good, a weak dollar is even better, and tension in oil rich areas don't drive up the price of crude. Of course, as soon as Obama is elected, they'll blame the weak dollar, economy, and price of gas on him.

Oil price strikes 122 dollars for first time

7 hours ago

LONDON (AFP) ? Oil prices hit a record high 122 dollars on Tuesday as the market was driven by recent unrest in key producer Nigeria and a struggling US currency, traders said.

New York's main oil futures contract, light sweet crude for June delivery, hit the the historic peak in late afternoon European deals.

London's Brent North Sea crude also reached an all-time high of 120.41 dollars.

Both records beat high points set earlier in the day.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gUh2AVKg51gB7RDltZXYU2dJWk5A (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gUh2AVKg51gB7RDltZXYU2dJWk5A)

This shit shouldn't be on the "futures" market.  They are the ones driving this up from fear and not one fucking thing ever happened.  Supply still exceeds demand and the gas in our pump was made 18 months ago.  This shit is a fucking joke.

(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7214/87741207qi8.png) (http://imageshack.us)

Stocks head to lower open after inflation data

By JOE BEL BRUNO ? 34 minutes ago

NEW YORK (AP) ? Wall Street tilted toward a lower open on Tuesday after a government report showed inflation at the wholesale level rose more than forecast after stripping out food and fuel prices.

The Labor Department reported that wholesale inflation edged up by 0.2 percent in April following a 1.1 percent jump in March. Outside of food and energy, prices rose by a faster 0.4 percent ? double what analysts had expected.

Rising prices for gasoline and utilities prices are affecting both companies and consumers, and the government report shows price pressures are seeping into other areas. If those costs are passed on to the consumer, it could cause a pullback in spending that accounts for more than two-thirds of the U.S. economy.

Investors will also get a better idea about consumer spending with a number of earnings reports from some of the nation's biggest retailers. Home Depot Inc. reported that first-quarter profit fell 66 percent because of the continued housing slump. Staples Inc. said profit rose 1.5 percent during the quarter, and reaffirmed its outlook.

In addition, chain-store sales fell 0.4 percent during the week of May 17, down from 1 percent the previous week, according to the International Council of Shopping Centers and UBS Securities.

Dow Jones industrial average futures down 91, or 0.58 percent, to 12,954. Standard & Poor's 500 index futures shed 7.90, or 0.55 percent, to 1,422.00, and the Nasdaq 100 futures dropped 10.00, or 0.49 percent, to 2,015.75.

Bond prices edged lower. The yield on the benchmark 10-year Treasury note, which moves opposite its yield, rose to 3.84 percent from 3.83 percent late Monday.

The dollar was mixed against other major currencies.

Oil prices held steady after closing overnight above $127 for the first time on news that OPEC will not increase its output before its next meeting in September. A barrel of light sweet crude rose 40 cents to $127.45 in premarket trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Federal Reserve Vice Chairman Donald Kohn will speak around 9 a.m. EDT about the economy in a speech in New Orleans. Meanwhile, the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago issued a report that showed U.S. economic activity weakened further in April and reached its lowest level since the 2001 recession.

Banking stocks are set to open lower after Oppenheimer & Co. analyst Meredith Whitney said she expects the credit crisis to extend into 2009, and "perhaps beyond." She said firms like JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Citigroup Inc. have set aside $25 billion to cover losses, but might have to set aside about $170 billion by the end of next year.

Mortgage finance firm Fannie Mae will be in focus after Senate banking committee leaders late Monday announced they are close to a housing bill deal that would help prevent foreclosures. They also plan to change the way the government oversees both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Overseas, Japan's central bank kept interest rates steady Tuesday amid lingering worries about a global slowdown. Tokyo's Nikkei closed down 0.77 percent.

In Europe, London's FTSE dropped 1.49 percent, Frankfurt's DAX fell 0.99 percent and Paris' CAC 40 shed 1.17 percent.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD90PCKG00 (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD90PCKG00)

We need more govt oversight on oil. No reason in hell it should be rising due to the circumstances that actually exist.

it's ridiculous.

3.62 here right now

Interesting. So you want more government?

I found the comment interesting, too.

I wonder if he's for more government oversight of health care, too.

I seriously doubt it...but I wonder.....

I'll swap...we'ver hovering around $4 a gallon...some stations are RIGHT below it ($3.97) and some are just over ($4.04).

I'm putting almost $100 a week into my car, just to get back and forth to work.

July (when our "work at home" program should go into effect....2 days a week, at least) can't come soon enough.

Westshore area LAST WEEK:

(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9983/gasnf1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/8653/crownprinceeg9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)



By Tom Doggett 43 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved legislation on Tuesday allowing the Justice Department to sue OPEC members for limiting oil supplies and working together to set crude prices, but the White House threatened to veto the measure.

The bill would subject OPEC oil producers, including Saudi Arabia, Iran and Venezuela, to the same antitrust laws that U.S. companies must follow.

The measure passed in a 324-84 vote, a big enough margin to override a presidential veto.

The legislation also creates a Justice Department task force to aggressively investigate gasoline price gouging and energy market manipulation.

"This bill guarantees that oil prices will reflect supply and demand economic rules, instead of wildly speculative and perhaps illegal activities," said Democratic Rep. Steve Kagen of Wisconsin, who sponsored the legislation.

The lawmaker said Americans "are at the mercy" of OPEC for how much they pay for gasoline, which this week hit a record average of $3.79 a gallon.

The White House opposes the bill, saying that targeting OPEC investment in the United States as a source for damage awards "would likely spur retaliatory action against American interests in those countries and lead to a reduction in oil available to U.S. refiners."

The administration said less oil going to refineries would limit available gasoline supplies and raise fuel prices.

Foreign investment in U.S. oil infrastructure has declined in the last decade. But the state-owned oil companies of several OPEC nations are owners of U.S. refineries, and those investments could be affected if the legislation becomes law, said Arlington, Virginia-based FBR Capital Markets Corp.

The bill also requires the Government Accountability Office to carryout a study on the effects of prior oil company mergers on energy prices.

The Senate would still have to approve the House measure.

The Senate previously approved similar legislation as part of a broad energy bill. However, the OPEC-suing provision was removed after White House opposition in order to get the underlying energy legislation signed into law.

in ontario canada its around $1.25 per litre for 87 octane which works out to about $4.73/gallon  :rant:

Mid Grade (89 Octane) is approx $1.30/Litre - $4.92/Gal
premium gas (91 Octane) is about $1.35/Litre - $5.11/Gal

East and West Coasts in Canada are even higher

the price you posted is about $1.10 per litre...we were there last summer

The system we have on how oil is priced is broken. It is not going to fix itself. Are the oil companies or speculators going to do anything about it? No, they are making record profits.

There is no doubt the record oil prices are putting a drag on our economy. No particular industry should deserve to make record profits at the country's expense.

I am generally against more government, and I am for for effective and efficient govt.  In a situation like this the govt should get involved.

Sounds like socialism to me.

I see it more as govt getting involved in an  anti trust capacity. 

Who's to blame for $4 gas
Prices have surged over the past four years - and there's a bunch of reasons why.
By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: May 20, 2008: 10:26 AM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- It's hard to imagine now, but in 1999 gasoline sold for 90 cents a gallon. How'd we get from there to $4 a gallon?

There is no short answer - many things happened, and together they formed a chain of events from cheap gas to $100 tankfuls.

2004: Demand pressure
One of the most common reasons cited for the price jump is supply and demand - we are using more oil, which accounts for 70% of the price of gas, and finding less of it.
Why we are finding less oil and using more of it is partly a result of the low prices during the 1990s. Those low prices - partly caused by low gas taxes in the U.S. compared to other developed nations - both encouraged rapid consumption domestically (think SUVs) and underinvestment in new production by the world's oil companies.
By the time 2004 rolled around - and developing economies around the globe roared to life - the world was left in a pinch.
"Our demand has skyrocketed, but our ability to supply that demand has stagnated," said Stephen Schork, publisher of the industry newsletter The Schork Report. Gasoline prices topped $2 a gallon for the first time ever in May of 2004, "and we've been off to the races since then," said Schork.
As demand grew and the supply of oil remained relatively flat, the difference between the amount of oil the world could produce and the amount it consumed narrowed. That meant a supply disruption from one place in the world could not be easily covered with spare oil from another part.

2005: The storm
This was illustrated in September 2005, when Hurricane Katrina knocked out a significant chunk of U.S. refining and gasoline prices spiked above $3 a gallon for the first time ever.
"It exposed how little surplus refining capacity we have in the U.S.," said James Crandell, an energy analyst at Lehman Brothers.
A new refinery hasn't been built in the United States in three decades, although capacity at existing refineries has been expanded.

2006: Hot tempers
The lack of spare supply has kept other geopolitical events in the forefront for the last few years. Iran and the spat over its nuclear program dominated the news in early 2006, and combined with Israel's invasion of Lebanon in the summer of that year to cause another spike in gas prices to over $3 a gallon.
Geopolitical events need not be shooting wars to attract attention. Analysts say general resource nationalism since 2004 is partly responsible for high oil prices.
In the past few years, Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Russia's Vladimir Putin and Venezuela's Hugo Chavez have all become more bellicose on the world stage - in some cases, seeking a bigger share of the profit from foreign oil firms or threatening to cut off oil supplies if attacked.
Some say the Bush administration's provocation of Iran and Venezuela, coupled with a botched occupation of oil-exporting Iraq, has contributed to the geopolitical tension. But defenders say that, in the long run, the administration's actions will eventually lead to a more democratic - and thus stable - global supply.

2007: Tight supplies
New supplies of oil from non-OPEC countries were supposed to come online in 2007 and ease some of these supply bottlenecks. But problems in Kazakhstan and Russia - as well as sweeping drilling bans in the United States - mean global consumption is growing twice as fast as non-OPEC production.
Analysts say OPEC, which hold two-thirds of the world's oil reserves but sees a global economy humming along despite $130 oil, has little incentive to increase production.

2008: Speculators swarm
Strong demand, tight supplies and a volatile marketplace have attracted the interest of investors - the last main contributor to high prices.
"The speculator has seized upon this opportunity," said Schork. "They have recognized there is something fundamentally flawed in this market."
Since 2003, the number of oil contracts exchanged on the NYMEX has more than doubled, said Schork.
Money flowing into oil - and commodities in general - has been especially sharp over the last 6 months as investors look for good returns amid falling stock prices and an inflation hedge against a falling dollar.
That's helped push oil prices to nearly $130 a barrel and gasoline to an average of nearly $3.80 a gallon - smashing previous records even when adjusting for inflation.
Why do you think gas prices are so high? Post a comment.
Whether this investor influx into the oil market is justified is matter of debate. Some see high oil prices as necessary to boost supply and limit demand.
"You can't just point the finger at speculators," Michael Haigh, head of U.S. commodities research at the investment bank Soci?t? G?n?rale, recently told CNNMoney.com "Fundamentally, the markets are where they are supposed to be."
Others are less certain.
"The fundamental picture to us doesn't justify the price," said Lehman's Crandell. "It's kind of suggestive of a bubble."

Me too.  Bordering on communism (AND NO, I'M NOT CALLING THE GOOD SENATOR A COMMIE!!!).

You substitute health care into the above explanation and it's just as apt....

Oil price hits record high 130.47 dollars on wave of supply angst

Agence France-Presse

LONDON - The price of oil soared past 130 dollars a barrel for the first time on Wednesday in a wave of anxiety about stretched supplies and strong demand for energy, and as the dollar weakened, analysts said.

New York's main oil futures contract, light sweet crude for July delivery, reached a record pinnacle of 130.47 dollars. It later pulled back slightly to stand at 130.15, still a rise of 1.17 dollars on Tuesday's close.

Light sweet crude for delivery in December 2016, the most forwardly-traded contract, stood at 138.38 dollars.

In London, Brent North Sea crude for July hit a historic high of 129.92 dollars a barrel on Wednesday. Later it traded at 129.46, up 1.62 dollars.

The market was awaiting the latest weekly snapshot of energy inventories in the United States -- the world's biggest consumer of oil -- being published by the US government at 1430 GMT.

"Crude futures made fresh record highs above 130 dollars (Wednesday) as the US dollar depreciated to a one-month low ... which prompted further interest in crude as a means of hedging against US currency exposure," said Sucden analyst Nimit Khamar.

"From observing the price movements over the last six months it can be seen that prices retrace back about 10 dollars after hitting each psychological mark, so perhaps the break above 130 dollars a barrel could now see a retracement back to 120 dollars before the next leg up," Khamar added.

Crude futures have jumped by nearly a third since the start of 2008, when they struck 100 dollars a barrel for the first time, as investors reacted to geopolitical unrest in oil-producing countries amid tight supplies and strong Asian demand for energy.

Tony Nunan, of Mitsubishi Corp.'s international petroleum business, said concerns over supplies not keeping up with demand were driving prices higher.

"The market is technically and fund-driven right now," he said on Wednesday, referring to investors buying into oil in hopes for higher returns.

David Moore, a commodity strategist at the Commonwealth Bank of Australia, said a weaker US dollar and "the recent trend for analysts to revise higher their oil price forecasts" are helping to push up prices.

Analysts added that a need for diesel-fuelled power generation in earthquake-affected areas of China was boosting demand for the fuel.

"If there is an upside driver in energy these days, it is the diesel markets," said MF Global analyst Ed Meir.

"Sentiment here continues to remain very bullish on concern that much diesel needs to be imported into China to power generators."

The Chinese government said on Wednesday that the death toll from the 8.0 magnitude earthquake that devastated the nation's southwest on May 12 had risen to 41,353.

Venezuela's oil minister has blamed market speculators for the spiraling international price of crude and rejected increased production as a way to calm the market.

"Prices have risen spectacularly because of speculation, because of the devaluation of the dollar and world inflation," the minister, Rafael Ramirez, said late Tuesday after a meeting with OPEC secretary general Abdullah el-Badri.

Ramirez said "any rise in production would be immediately put in stock and this would have a negative impact on prices."

As the price of a barrel of crude headed for 130 dollars, Ramirez insisted the problem was "not linked to supply and demand". "There is enough oil on the market," Ramirez declared.

The minister said that the "financial actors" are now more interested in futures contracts "which they consider safer than other investments."

Analysts said a decision by Saudi Arabia -- the world's biggest oil producer -- to raise output had not done much to lower crude prices.

Many officials belonging to the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries argue that record oil prices are being driven by speculators seizing on geopolitical unrest, such as in Nigeria -- Africa's biggest exporter of crude.

Eric Wittenauer, analyst at Wachovia Securities, said reports about growing tensions between Washington and Tehran heightened concerns about a conflict that could affect oil supplies in Iran and the wider Middle East.

He said the market reacted to an article in the Jerusalem Post that said US President George W. Bush "intends to attack Iran before the end of his term."

"We have certainly not ruled out the possibility of conflict later this year," Wittenauer said.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=119022 (http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=119022)

An attack on Iran is probably in the cards, just imagine oil prices then..

But hey, let's keep voting Republican..

An attack on Iran is not going to happen unless Iran has the bomb and is threatening to use it.

I wish these cry baby socialist "republicans" would quit asking Uncle Sam for a handout when things get tough. Cheap gas is not guaranteed anywhere in the Constitution.

Quit yer bellyachin' and pull yourself up by your bootstraps!

Iraq didn't have WMD or threaten anybody, yet we killed about a million people over there so far.

Too bad we didn't go into Iraq for the oil (as many here thought we had).  If that had happened, maybe all of our gas prices would be lower.   ;)

I'm for government intervention into the oil business.  But health care is totally different.  Goverment healthcare will hurt millions of americans in order to favor millions of americans.  Government intervention into the oil crisis may end up hurting a few gazillionaires to help billions.  That's why one is more socialism and the other isn't.

Good post  : ok:

Oil prices and health care are totally different types of issues, which require two totally different approaches.

Yeah, it is too bad we did not go into Iraq for oil  :hihi:

Of course Iraq was about oil. The people who profit aren't about to share it with the gullible fools who empowered them though.


You think only gazillionaires work for oil companies? Weird.

I just drove past a shell servo here in Newcastle and fuel was 159.9 per litre. Thats the dearest I've ever seen it. Yesterday it was 136.9. How the fuck does that happen?


 :peace:

Oil Companies Defend Large Profits Before Senate Judiciary Committee

Wednesday, May 21, 2008

AP


WASHINGTON ?
Top executives of the five largest oil companies tried to shift anger over high prices to a debate over supplies Wednesday, leading a senator to accuse them of acting like "hapless victims" while racking up record profits.

Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., told the executives there's "a disconnect" between normal supply and demand and the skyrocketing price of oil ? surpassing $130 a barrel even as the oil leaders testified ? that the industry has yet to explain.

J. Stephen Simon, executive vice president of Exxon Mobil Corp., said profits have been huge "in absolute terms" but must be viewed in the context of the massive scale of the industry." He also said high earnings are needed "in the current up cycle" to pay for investments in the long term when profits will be down.

"'Current up cycle,' that's a nice term," replied Leahy with sarcasm, "when people can't afford to go to work" because gasoline is costing close to $4 a gallon.

He asked Simon what his total compensation was at Exxon, a company that made $40 billion last year. Simon replied it was $12.5 million annually.

Two other executives, John Lowe, executive vice president of ConocoPhillips Co., said he didn't recall his total compensations as did Peter Robertson, vice chairman of Chevron Corp. John Hofmeister, president of Shell Oil Co., said his was "about $2.2 million" but was not among the top five salaries at his company's international parent. Robert Malone, chairman of BP America Inc., put his compensation at "in excess of $2 million."

Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., said Exxon's annual profits increased from $11.5 billion to $40.6 billion in the past five years and there was no explanation for "why profits have gone up so high when the consumer is suffering so much."

The five companies earned $36 billion in the first quarter of this year.

The executives, appearing under oath before the Senate Judiciary Committee, said they know high prices are hurting people, but they said the cause is not company profits but global supply and demand. And they sought to use their appearance before Congress to argue against new taxes on their industry

"I urge you to resist these punitive policies," said Hofmeister.

Senate Democrats recently announced an energy package that would tax "windfall" profits of the five companies. That might have public appeal, Lowe told the senators, but oil companies should not be viewed as "a scapegoat" for high prices.

That was not what many senators wanted to hear.

You have "just a litany of complaints that you're all just hapless victims of a system," Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., told the executives. "Yet you rack up record profits ... quarter after quarter after quarter."

"I'm sorry to sound like a victim. I don't feel like a victim at all," replied Robertson of Chevron, saying that he was proud of his company's investments in future supply.

Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill, accused the corporate executives of ignoring the plight of people suffering because of high energy prices. "Where is your corporate conscience?" he asked them.

"The issue is simple," said Leahy. "People we represent are hurting, the companies you represent are profiting."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356885,00.html

This ain't nothing. Most of the people on this board will see $500-$1000 a barrel. Oil is a finite resource, that will be gone in 50 years. Lucky for me I'll be dead by then.

You can't dip into social programs on your terms, then vilify those who also propose programs with tax payer money. 


It's anything but cheap, it's the opposite of cheap.

Nobody here said we went into Iraq for cheap oil. But rather oil contracts later, which is true and already established in the Iraqi Constitution (with America's generous hand of course.) But nobody said anything about cheap. The right parades around that strawman around quite often though.

If Colonel Sanders had been put in the White House in 2000, and a extra crispy was selling at 15 bucks a piece today, would you be the least bit suspicious?

you know, when we are busy killing milliions of innocent women and children over there as we continue to wage this illegal war, would it kill our military to grab a few barrels of Oil?  50 bucks to fill my tank...what the fuck? :confused:

As oil becomes more expensive, it puts a financial strain on your family. Cheap oil is your right, and the government should put a cap on it because you are entitled to a comfortable American lifestyle.

Those who feel that affordable health care is their right, or feel the financial strain from astronomical prices (sometimes while gravely ill), are lazy and shouldn't suck off the government teet at our expense.

I get it now.

The price bothers you?

Poor baby, work harder and pay up! Don't come around here looking for a handout.

haha are you kidding me..its only 10 bucks more than it usually costs me....sarcasm flew over your head on that one...either that or im not as funny as i think I am...no that cant be it....

Your posts are usually so inane, any attempt at sarcasm makes little or no difference.

So, let me get this straight, who wants a cap on gas prices? Who wants the government to step in and do this?

nice recovery to make yourself feel less stupid for taking that first post of mine seriously...hows that "fox news" circle jerk coming along... :hihi:

They're both socialism...just on different scales.  That's rather the point...in BOTH cases you're placing government controls on a system and eliminating (more or less) a free market system.

Thinking one is more justified than the other, because of your percieved scale, doesn't make them, at the core, that much different in principle.

I hope the price continues to rise rapidly, forcing the market to look for alternatives

Yes it can  : ok:

Stocks advance after two-day plunge; oil off highs

By TIM PARADIS ? 28 minutes ago

NEW YORK (AP) ? Stocks rebounded modestly Thursday after two sessions of steep declines brought by the surging price of oil.

Oil prices set another trading record overnight ? moving above $135 per barrel for the first time ? but pulled off their highs, offering some relief for investors. And the Labor Department said the number of workers seeking unemployment benefits declined by 9,000 last week to 365,000. The market expected a slight increase.

But the economic fallout from ascendent energy prices remained Wall Street's focus.

The advance in stocks followed a decline in the Dow Jones industrial average that totaled about 427 points, or 3.3 percent, over the course of Tuesday and Wednesday. It was the steepest two-day loss since late February. Stocks have declined in three of the past four sessions.

The spike in oil prices has fanned investors' uneasiness about inflation. One big fear is that consumers worried about rising prices for everything from gasoline to food will be less willing to reach into their wallet for other items. A pullback could deal a major blow to the economy as consumer spending accounts for more than two-thirds of U.S. economic activity. And rising oil drives up transportation costs and many other expenses for businesses that aren't directly dependent on consumers.

Light, sweet crude rose 34 cents to $133.51 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Earlier, oil topped $135.

In the first hour of trading, the Dow rose 37.78, or 0.29 percent, to 12,638.97.

Broader stock indicators also moved higher. The Standard & Poor's 500 index rose 2.81, or 0.20 percent, to 1,393.52, and the Nasdaq composite index rose 8.34, or 0.33 percent, to 2,456.61.

Still, even with the declines of more than 2 percent in the major indexes this week, stocks are still well off their mid-March lows. The Dow industrials are about 7.4 percent above where they closed on March 10, when investors were preoccupied with worries over the soundness of the credit markets. Since then, Wall Street has reshuffled its list of concerns, placing greater emphasis on the well-being of the overall economy, not just the troubled financial sector.

Bond prices fell Thursday. The yield on the benchmark 10-year Treasury note rose to 3.88 percent from 3.81 percent late Wednesday.

The dollar was mixed against other major currencies, while gold prices fell.

In corporate news, Ford Motor Co. warned that it no longer expects to return to profitability by next year and that it is trimming North American production of pickups and SUVs for the rest of this year because of high gas prices and a shaky economy. The automaker also lowered its forecasts for U.S. sales for 2008. Ford fell 57 cents, or 7.3 percent, to $7.23.

Power wholesaler NRG Energy Inc. said it offered to acquire rival Calpine Corp. for about $11.3 billion in stock. Calpine, which has dual headquarters in San Jose and Houston, released details of the unsolicited bid Wednesday. NRG fell $1.39, or 3.3 percent, to $41.12, while Calpine jumped $1.56, or 7.3 percent, to $22.84.

Advancing issues outnumbered decliners by about 8 to 5 on the New York Stock Exchange, where volume came to 167.4 million shares.

The Russell 2000 index of smaller companies rose 5.35, or 0.74 percent, to 732.46.

Overseas, Japan's Nikkei stock average rose 0.37 percent. In afternoon trading, Britain's FTSE 100 fell 0.35 percent, Germany's DAX index declined 0.51 percent, and France's CAC-40 fell 0.52 percent.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD90QO0G00 (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD90QO0G00)

Trust me, I don't take anything you say seriously.



That is the only way to force change: the pocket book.

Oil Prices Break Record at $135 a Barrel

SUPPLY & DEMAND: The price of crude oil reached a new record high this week, topping $135 a barrel. Is this an "oil bubble," or just the sign of more to come?

The U.S. government's weekly gas and oil inventory report said supplies were lower than expected Wednesday. This news inspired energy investors to invest in oil, which drove the price up to its highest yet. Some pundits and analysts justify the price surge with supply and demand data, while others point to the nation's lagging economy and oil investment trends.

by Mike Maxwell
Informify Staff Writer
May 23, 2008

Oil Inventory Report Causes Buying Frenzy

The U.S. Department of Energy releases weekly reports on the nation's oil and gasoline supplies. Wednesday's report, covering the week of May 10-16, showed U.S. oil inventory was down 5.4 million barrels. Analysts had predicted an increase of 300,000 barrels during that timeframe. In addition, stocks of gasoline had dropped 800,000 barrels instead of increasing by the expected 250,000 barrels.

This unexpected news struck an already tense group of investors. The price of oil has:

nearly doubled in the past year
risen 18% in the past month

The unexpected shortfall drove the price of a barrel of New York sweet light crude over $135. Since that peak a few days ago, oil prices have dropped several dollars.


What's Driving High Oil Prices?

Two factors caused the higher oil prices:

concerns about supply and demand
investors joining a trend to make a profit

Supply and Demand

Our awareness of the world's dependence on petroleum fuels increases in light of the following:

instability in oil-producing regions of the world, such as the Middle East, Africa and South America
quickly expanding economies of India and China, where more and more people are able to afford cars
national security concerns about relying on a resource controlled by foreign governments or companies
data showing that our reliable oil sources are producing less oil, and that new sources of oil may be difficult to exploit
a growing social movement away from fossil fuels and toward renewable energy sources such as solar, wind, geothermal, and hydro-electric power
scientific data linking the use of fossil fuels with global climate change
higher gasoline prices

Old-Fashioned Capitalism

Like any other investors, people who invest in oil look for ways to increase the value of what they have. Observant investors watched the price of oil increase rapidly over the last year. These investors believe the price of oil will continue to go up for awhile. When they think the prices have reached their peak, they will sell their investments for a profit.

So far this year, investments in oil have outperformed investments in stocks and bonds.


Oil Bubble?

Do recent record oil prices reflect actual supply and demand trends in the U.S. economy? Opinions vary.

Tight Market Psychology: The same day the price of oil hit its record high, oil executives appeared before the Senate Judiciary Committee. According to these executives, the price for a barrel of oil should range between $35 and $90 even after factoring in the cost of oil production and supply and demand.

Victor Shum is an analyst for Purvin and Gertz, an energy consulting firm in Singapore. He believes the oil prices are artificial. "The psychology is that the oil market is tight," he said. "Even though there is no shortage, global oil demand continues to grow and supply growth is restrained." (Yahoo!/AFP, 5/22/08)

Demand Exceeds Supply: Demand continues to grow rapidly in China and India, where business is booming. Jeff Rubin, an economist and strategist for CIBC World Markets, said, "The story of the past month has been the sudden surge demand in China for diesel fuel... Even at $133, demand hasn't been reined in, and without a real raise in supply we think it's ultimately going to go over $200 a barrel." (Forbes, 5/21/05)

Future Supply Limited: There is also evidence to support the theory that our oil supply will not last forever. The International Energy Agency (IEA) is expected to decrease its estimate for oil production in the year 2030. Bill Ramsey, deputy executive director for the IEA said, "We are trying to get a better understanding of depletion rates and expectations of productivity. There is growing awareness that raising world output is a problem." (Bloomberg, 5/21/08)

http://www.informify.com/top-stories/50-economy/155-oil-prices-break-record-at-135-a-barrel (http://www.informify.com/top-stories/50-economy/155-oil-prices-break-record-at-135-a-barrel)

Hey where did the commie senator go? Is he writing a letter to Bush asking him to freeze gas prices?

You may disagree with his politics...but commie senator?  Really?

100 percent, yes.

Kind of shows you how extreme you are, doesn't it.  You think McCain is a commie?  Most people consider him an American hero. 

I'm not calling McCain a commie, I'm calling Senator one.

He wants government to control gas prices, does he not?

How would you define that? Free market?



Actually it shows what a poor reader you are.

??

Senator asks for government caps on gas (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=956)

Not Senator McCain.

Ah.  My bad.  I thought you meant McCain. 

I don't know Senator, but I bet he isn't a commie.

Is government control over pricing a free market ideal?

Nope.  But I'm for it, and I'd venture to bet you're for it.  I doubt either of us are commies.

You'd be wrong again.

What do you call somebody who advocates communist principles?

So your for government control over princing in healthcare, but for the same with oil prices?  Why?

I'm not for government control over health care pricing.

How would you describe somebody who advocates communist principles then? How would you describe them?

I would not call someone who wants goverment intervention into the oil price crisis as a commie.  A commie is someone who holds believes wholeheartedly in that form of goverment.  I am not a commie for wanting the US to help out in the gas crisis.

Sounds like you are moving the goal posts to me...

 
Should we all believe what you do since you think your opinion is so much better than everyone elses?

BTW- there are more forms of stress relief available to you other than riding my ass.

Confirm what you already said, do you think government should put a cap on gas prices?

 ::)

You are saying that supporting goverment intervention in the oil crisis makes one a commie.  I'm saying it takes more than that to make someone a commie.  It's just an opinion, but probably shared by 95% of the world.

What kind of government intervention do you suggest which only affects the gazillionaires as you put it a page or so back?

The kind that would hurt the oil companies making record profits to help the billions who use oil.  Hurt is a relative term when you talk about making gaxillions into billionaires.  I'm not eductaed on the topic enough to give specifics, but I would support legislation that would make oil companies earn more responsibly.  Does support of a policy like that make me a commie or does it take more than that?

It depends on what the policy is. I can't think of something which only affects the gazillionaires unless you make it a personal taxation which wouldn't fly and is probably illegal. I don't know of a way to reduce a company's profits which only affects the very rich at the top, maybe you do?

Allowing more competition in the oil industry could be something the Gov't could promote.  We really have only 5 major oil companies and there is no incentive for them to not take the high profits.  It is close to a monopoly.

I'm not promoting a cap on oil prices, that would be unrealistic. A windfall profits tax where the revenue goes towards lowering prices is a possible solution.

I don't really understand the economics but from what I understand, the oil companies are only part of the problem along with speculation and the weak dollar. Encouraging competition in the oil companies seems to me the exact wrong thing to do. I'd prefer if we were taking away incentives from oil companies, and putting the incentives into alternative energy sources, tax breaks to work at home, public transport - though it's probably far too late for that to make much difference to the infrastructure. Even in the unlikely case that we aren't contributing to global warming, it's a resource which is running out and causing stupid, expensive wars.

Even without government intervention, we're seeing the results of a non-competitive cozy kind of capitalism, where most people have been living comfortably for a few decades. But sudden shifts are part of capitalism (ex. the industrial revolution and industry/agriculture), some people gain, some people lose - people who moved to the suburbs and drove long distances to work with no alternative, but lived comfortably are pretty much going to be the losers now unless they adapt. That's the harsh reality of capitalism, it's of little use expecting the government to bail you out once it's your turn to suffer.


I guess I don't understand windfall tax. Wouldn't that be money going from the companies to the government? Even if the gas tax was repealed, prices are rising by more than that in weeks, and it's only 18c/gallon. Gas isn't suddenly going to fall to $1.50. How would a windfall tax benefit consumers?

I'm no economics whiz either, but I would think that the money from a windfall profit tax could be used to offset the rising gas prices in any number of ways.  Yes the money would be going to the govt, but this capital would be used in the interest of not wanting the economy to suffer as a whole.

The pricing of oil based on speculation rather than its actual value is another problem. Why should oil rise at the pump the same day as an internal incedent in the country of Nigeria? The gas in the tank at the local station has already been bought and paid for.

Such as?

There is no acceptable defense for the oil prices.  This is not milk.  This is not a pure market.  This isn't just supply and demand.  This is the biggest fucking scam in the history of our planet.  I think when Hurrican Katrina came and nobody stopped buying gas when it shot up, they found out, "it doesn't matter what we charge, these bastards need it to live, we have them by the balls."  I love economics.  I love less gov't intervention.  I love supply and demand.  But only when its in a free market.  Not a cartel like the one we are in.  This is the biggest bull shit ever.   I don't think Oil should be publically traded because the incentives is for the shareholders as they should be.  But they harm everyone else.  Their success hurts the non investors because it means we pay more. 

What's your walk score? Mine is 86...

http://www.walkscore.com/

boo hoo   :'(

It's a cartel. What do you expect?

Fairness?

Making oil a real free market would go a long way, that's pretty basic economics.

Bravo  :beer:

If price was controlled by supply and demand I'd agree that Govt should keep its hands off. But that is not the case.

The speculators are the effect not the cause.

Stocks fall as oil prices stir economic worries

By TIM PARADIS
AP Business Writer
 
Article Date: Sunday, May 25, 2008

NEW YORK ? Wall Street ended a week of big losses with more selling Friday as rising oil prices again raised worries that strained consumers will cut back spending and hurt the overall economy. The Dow Jones industrials fell nearly 150 points in the final session before the three-day holiday weekend.

Investors are uneasy about consumers, who at the start of Memorial Day weekend are paying gasoline prices that have gone up nearly 20 percent, or 65 cents a gallon, in the past year.

Wall Street's fear is that consumers, who account for more than two-thirds of U.S. economic activity, will pare spending to make room in their budgets for gas that has topped $4 a gallon in some parts of the country.

Light, sweet crude rose $1.38 to settle at $132.19 per barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Oil saw its third weekly gain after surging to a record $135.09 a barrel on Thursday. Some investors are buying on the belief that global demand from countries like China and India will outstrip supply. A weak dollar also makes each barrel more expensive.

"Crude oil is still weighing on the market and particularly because this is a traditional driving holiday," said Chris Orndorff, director of equity strategy at Payden & Rygel in Los Angeles.

The concerns sent Dow down 145.99, or 1.16 percent, to 12,479.63.

Broader stock indicators also declined. The Standard & Poor's 500 index fell 18.42, or 1.32 percent, to 1,375.93, and the Nasdaq composite index slid 19.91, or 0.81 percent, to 2,444.67.

For the week, the Dow lost 3.91 percent, suffering its worst week since February, while the S&P 500 gave up 3.47 percent and the Nasdaq fell 3.33 percent.

The economic fallout from higher energy prices commanded Wall Street's focus during the week. Stocks managed to post gains Thursday following the Dow's biggest two-day loss since late February. Despite the declines in the major indexes for the week, stocks are off their mid-March lows. The Dow is still up 6.3 percent from its close of 11,740.15 on March 10, when credit concerns weighed on the market.

"I think while the eye of the credit storm may have passed, the tidewater is still rising on the consumer and investors can't lose sight of that," said Jack Ablin, chief investment officer at Harris Private Bank in Chicago. He noted that higher gas prices had led some vacationers to reduce how far they plan to travel for the holiday.

"It is taking a toll on the consumer and it remains to be seen how that will impact corporate earnings."

Beyond consumers, investors worried about the harm higher energy prices are having on businesses. The rise in oil hammered sectors such as airlines. Continental Airlines Inc. fell nearly 27 percent for the week, while United Airlines parent UAL Corp. dropped nearly 46 percent.

Bond prices rose Friday as investors sought the safety of government debt. The yield on the benchmark 10-year Treasury note, which moves opposite its price, fell to 3.85 percent from 3.92 percent late Thursday.

The dollar fell, while gold prices rose.

Orndorff said the spike in oil has rekindled concerns about stagflation ? when stalling growth accompanies rising prices.

"Given that inflation remains stubbornly high, then the Fed is going to be less accommodative going forward so we may end up a period of sluggish growth in stubbornly higher inflation," he said, referring to possible interest rate cuts from the Federal Reserve. Minutes released this week from the last meeting of the central bank's rate-setting arm doused some investors' hopes that policymakers will again cut rates to aid the economy when they meet at the end of June.

Orndorff predicts investors will need further evidence on how the economy is faring before they resume taking stocks back toward the highs seen last fall.

"I think the market for the most part is going to be in a somewhat narrow trading range until you get the earnings that come out in July. I think that's going to be an important quarter as people see how the effects of the global economy slowing are affecting the companies."

A Financial Times report that brewing company InBev is readying a $46 billion takeover bid for Budweiser maker Anheuser-Busch Cos. failed to shake Wall Street from its downcast mood. Often, buyout activity is fodder for a rally in stocks as it as seen as a bullish sign for the economy. But the buying appeared limited to the St. Louis brewer, whose shares hit an all-time high. Anheuser-Busch rose finished up $4.03, or 7.7 percent, to $56.61 after trading as high as $58.

American Axle and Manufacturing Holdings Inc. fell 81 cents, or 4.2 percent, to $18.44 after the company said that workers approved a contract including pay cuts and other concessions. The vote ends a strike that lasted nearly three months, hurting General Motors Corp.'s production of large sport utility vehicles and pickups. Although the contract's ratification will benefit GM, auto stocks saw pressure during the week because of soaring fuel prices. GM was the steepest decliner among the 30 stocks that comprise the Dow industrials, falling 83 cents, or 4.5 percent, to $17.60.

Declining issues outnumbered advancers by about 7 to 3 on the New York Stock Exchange, where consolidated volume came to 3.43 billion shares compared with 3.85 billion shares traded Thursday.

The Russell 2000 index of smaller companies fell 8.91, or 1.22 percent, to 724.10.

In overseas trade, Tokyo's Nikkei closed rose 0.24 percent. In Europe, London's FTSE ended down 1.53 percent, Frankfurt's DAX fell 1.79 percent and Paris' CAC 40 shed 1.89 percent.

The Dow Jones industrial average ended the week down 507.17, or 3.91 percent, at 12,479.63. The Standard & Poor's 500 index finished down 49.42, or 3.47 percent, at 1,375.93. The Nasdaq composite index ended the week down 84.18, or 3.33 percent, at 2,444.67.

The Russell 2000 index finished the week down 17.07, or 2.3 percent, at 724.10.

The Dow Jones Wilshire 5000 Composite Index ? a free-float weighted index that measures 5,000 U.S. based companies ? ended Friday at 13,954.47, down 469.28 points, or 3.25 percent, for the week. A year ago, the index was at 15,348.10.

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080525/NEWS10/801323969/-1/FOSBUSINESS (http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080525/NEWS10/801323969/-1/FOSBUSINESS)

 Cost of diesel in the UK yesterday  1.32UKP/litre which translates to $9.90/US gallon.

Oil prices rise to near $133

THOMAS HOGUE

The Associated Press

May 26, 2008 at 7:06 AM EDT

BANGKOK ? Oil rose to near $133 (U.S.) a barrel Monday in Asia on persistent worries about global petroleum supplies and the outlook for the U.S. dollar.

The dollar has weakened over the past week after a modest recovery, and investors will be watching economic data out of the United States over the next few days for further clues about the world's biggest economy.

?The dollar's been swinging down again,? said Mark Pervan, senior commodity strategist at Australia & New Zealand Bank in Melbourne, and this is ?going to sway sentiment.?

Oil and other hard commodities are seen as hedges against a weakening greenback and inflation. Also, a weak dollar, the currency of international oil trade, makes petroleum less expensive to Asian and European buyers.

This week, investors will be watching for what implications U.S. consumer confidence, new home sales, gross domestic product and other economic data might have for the dollar and oil prices, Mr. Pervan said.

?It's a pretty price-sensitive week for economic data,? Mr. Pervan said. ?The data we're seeing out of the U.S. at the moment looks pretty weak. You'd expect that trend to continue, pushing further down on the dollar.?

Light sweet crude for July delivery was up 77 cents at $132.96 a barrel in electronic trade on the New York Mercantile Exchange. The contract had risen $1.38 to settle at $132.19 a barrel on Friday. Nymex floor trading is closed Monday for Memorial Day.

Prices got a boost when militants in Nigeria claimed they destroyed a Royal Dutch Shell PLC joint-venture oil pipeline and killed 11 soldiers. Nigeria is Africa's largest oil producer and a major supplier to the U.S. market.

Last week, a series of supply warnings rattled markets, and on Thursday a report that the International Energy Agency will lower its forecast of long-term global oil supply sent crude futures rocketing to an all-time high of $135.09 a barrel.

Investors are also worried about a growing squeeze on global diesel supplies as demand in China surges. Over the weekend, China's top economic planning agency again urged oil and power companies to make sure there are enough supplies for earthquake-hit areas and for the Beijing Olympics in August.

?They certainly want to have a buffer of supply ... so there's pressure on the upside from demand in Asia,? Mr. Pervan said.

The U.S. driving season officially began with the Memorial Day long weekend, and even if American demand for gasoline and diesel is lower than a year ago, it will still be stronger than it has been in recent month, he added.

http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080526.woilprices0526/BNStory/energy/home?cid=al_gam_mostview (http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080526.woilprices0526/BNStory/energy/home?cid=al_gam_mostview)

Reminds me of a White Stripes song.  :)

Tap, now that I have read this, it is very clear you have no understanding of economics.  Competition always drives down prices.  There is no competition right now.  First, what is the alternative fuel source right now in America?  Ethanol.  Is that available to everyone?  No.   Is a good alternative in the long run?  No.  So basically unless you have the subway, you need oil based fuel to travel far distances.  Lets talk about the "cartel" known as OPEC.  They are a regulatory body that governs most of the Oil we import.  People not in Cartel simply shadow the cartel as to what they are doing.  If they get too cheap, it doesn't matter or reflect at the pump, so its a non factor. 

The companies themselves, Exxon, BP, etc, have obligations to shareholders, first, consumers 2nd.  So they must keep trying to get record profits, which I understand, but we are dealing with a limited resource comming from a Cartel.  There is no free trade or competition for innovation.  This used to be what life was like in Cable TV.  Cable TV, like Charter Cable, would get rights to areas where only they could be in.  To a degree, that is still the case.  But guess what?  We now have a viable alternative to Cable TV.  Its called Dish Network, or Direct TV, or other Sattelite companies.  What happened when they came along?  Better deals and packages with Cable.  More channels, etc.  Competition helped and brought down prices.

Competition and free markets are good things.

Voting oilmen into the White House:

-Casino economy that yields a weak dollar
-International policies that create more unrest in oil rich areas

Peak Oil 101:

-Demand v Supply
-Oil more expensive/difficult to obtain

I hate to laugh at anybodies financial misfortune, as we've all had difficult times in our lives. But for those who continue to deny that Bushco (as well as their support of Bushco) created this mess, deserves everything they fucking get, and I have zero sympathy for them. This kid killing cowboy administration has ruined the dollar, and poked a stick in the hornets nest, inflating your cost at the pump. The same smug fools laughed at the very mention of peak oil, 100/barrel oil, and demand outstripping supply. They created strawmen to argue against, called names, and showed their asses, ignoring scientific method presented by geologists (that have been in the field well over 40 years.)

So, now here we are, pushing upwards towards 150/barrel on the back of a beaten down US dollar and these chumps still won't own up to getting fucked in the ass. The same bitches who call Carter every name in the book for promoting peace, want to adopt his failed policies at the gas pump, but are too fucking stupid to realize that either. That's totally laugh out loud fucking hilarious!

Finally, desperately denying any sense of reality, they are ready to ask big government to bail them out and set the price, so they can continue to live the American dream. An ironic twist for the free market chickenhawks, who turned out to be little more than a group pinko commie fags masquerading as Ronald Reagan Republicans.

Wonder if they will finally start peeling off their W stickers once we hit 5/gallon?

I think my explanation uses a lot less "ifs, ands, or buts" and more facts about what really is going on.  OPEC was a cartel long before Bush.  Bush didn't create Hurrican Katrina that shot up price significantly the first time.  Is there some blame at his feet?  Sure.  There still is plenty of Oil on this planet.  Hell, there is more oil in Utah than in Iraq.  For now its the cheapest and easiest way to power your vehicle.  The technology is out there for more efficient cars, but those cars are very expensive as well.  Its just time we have another source for fuel that is just as good as oil.

Oil Slips Just Below $130 a Barrel

By Brian Baskin

Crude-oil futures traded lower Tuesday, as traders took profits after a record-setting run last week.

Light, sweet crude for July delivery traded $2.40, or 1.8%, lower at $129.79 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Brent crude on the ICE futures exchange traded $2.72 lower at $129.65 a barrel.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121189647308922781.html?mod=googlenews_wsj (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121189647308922781.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

Apparently I can't read either, because your reply has pretty much nothing to do with what I wrote.

Now it's the weather's fault.  :o

Tap, read second part of that point or go to community college and learn something before you dribble any more on your computer screen.   

Ouch, that one hurt.....a lot. I'm really, really sorry that it's costing you so much more to drive, but it would probably be easier without the stick up your ass.

Are you saying that the chickens have come home to roost?  ;D

Fuckin A Wright.

You don't read very well.

It's Bush's huge deficits that are pushing the dollar down. That is a FACT. This pushes the price of crude up for Americans. This has nothing to do with "Cartels", it has to do with simple economics. Something you are telling others to go to school for, but are completely oblivious about. Currency traders see this administrations actions as favoring a weak dollar, in particular the federal and trade deficits, and acts accordingly. As the dollar goes down, oil goes up, and you pay more at the pump and for your food.

Everything else, with perhaps the exception of peak oil, is secondary.

In fact Bush's socialized bail out of Wall Street, 200 Billion, has come home to roost as well. Every time you open your wallet at the gas station, you are paying for the money we printed out of thin air, and borrowed in order to prop up Bush's "Free Market" financial institutions.

Chumps.

It pushes the price of everything up. Though, I hear the the American Eagle 1oz is a good buy these days ... if you live somewhere else.

We get it....you hate Bush.  No real need to keep bashing him here though.  I don't see any Bush lovers on this board (at least not by the things they post), and most people here agree he's been aweful.  We understand you really, really hate him.  The 10-15 people here all get that. 

It's a simple supply vs. demand thing also.  There is less demand because the cartel is holding back production.  Are you saying the cartels are blameless?  Why are they holding back production?  Because oil pumped tomorrow is worth more than oil pumped today.  That has to have a profound impact on the economy and the price of oil.

It's a dollar crisis, not an oil cartel conspiracy theory.

And it's not your dumbed down "bashing", it's pointing out the administration that has ravaged our currency for it's socialist version of "free market".

These are fundamental economic truths, and plenty of fiscal conservatives stand beside me in that regard.

Just so we're clear....supply and demand and the cartels have nothing whatsoever to do with the oil prices going up?

If you actually read my posts, you'd see where I said supply and demand have a part in it. You even quoted it, which shows you aren't reading what I wrote.

Much of the world is paying much less than we are for a reason, and it has nothing to do with your Oil Cartel.

How could that possibly be?

I know the cartel's home countries pay less, but most of Europe pays way more.

Our goverment has kept the cost of gas artifically low.  Here's a list of the top tier:

Norway $8.73
United Kingdom $8.38
Netherlands $8.37
Monaco $8.31
Iceland $8.28
Belgium $8.22
France $8.04
Germany $7.86
Portugal $7.84
Italy $7.73

You're missing the point.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24779216/

Bobby Lee Julien, who?s driven a fuel tanker for 27 years, was near the end of his route. It was 3 a.m. when he pulled up at a stop sign off State Highway 225 in Houston.

It took only a few seconds for the masked man to rip open the passenger door, jump in and point a gun at Julien, 52.

?I begged him not to shoot me,? Julien said. ?I feared for my life. The whole time he had a gun pointed at me.?

It wasn?t Julien?s life the gunman wanted that morning of May 5: ?He said he wanted the truck. He wanted the fuel.?

The truck was recovered three days later. Police said its fuel load would probably be sold on the black market, which is thriving as average pump prices approach $4 a gallon.

With siphons, pumps, saws ? and sometimes lethal weapons ? gasoline thieves are on the hunt.

Most gas thefts are still perpetrated by motorists who drive off without paying. After seeing declines in drive-offs earlier this decade, after many stores began requiring drivers to pre-pay, the National Association of Convenience Stores says they?re rising sharply again.

Convenience stores sell more than 80 percent of the fuel U.S. motorists put in their vehicles, and stores in high-traffic areas along Interstate highways are often hit several times a day, the association said. The average store will lose more than $1,000 in stolen fuel this year, it said ? and more than double that at stores that don?t require pre-payment.

?I had two of them for $131,? said Reggie Armendariz, manager of Murphy USA in Lubbock, Texas. He said he lost more than $600 last month thanks to drive-offs.

Retailers say gas thieves hurt them badly because they?re already operating at razor-thin margins of roughly 2 cents a gallon. A retailer would need to sell an extra 3,000 gallons to offset a $60 drive-off.

?If you have somebody steal $50, $60, $70 worth of gas, it?s going to take a lot of sales to make that up,? said Scot Imus, executive director of the Indiana Petroleum Marketers and Convenience Store Association.

Individual vehicles increasingly targeted
But with the average price of a gallon of gas having more than doubled in the last two years, thieves are branching out. Across the country, drivers are waking up to find their gas caps pried open and their tanks dry.

While there are no national statistics yet tracking an increase in gas thefts, police across the country say they?re investigating more reports than ever before:

    * Using an empty gas can and a siphon, thieves were able to suck 30 gallons of diesel from a bus in a Bethesda, Md., parking lot.
    * In Beaver Dam, Wis., ?they?re just going to cars at night and siphoning gas out of them,? said Stephanie Lehmann, who said several cars in her neighborhood had been hit.
    * Police in Evansville, Ind., said thieves drained all of the fuel this month from seven trucks belonging to a local office of JBM Inc., a metal fabrication chain. They put the loss at $700.
    * And police in Denver are investigating a rash of of incidents in which thieves drill small holes into gas tanks and siphon off the fuel. ?This is clearly not the way it?s been done in the past, by taking a hose and putting it in a gas tank,? police Detective John White said.

?I anticipate there will be more types of theft like this,? said Todd Nehls, sheriff of Dodge County, Wis. ?Either siphoning from other people?s equipment or siphoning from other people?s tanks.?

Many newer cars have locked gas caps, and if yours doesn?t, ?you should consider investing the $10 in a good-quality locking gas cap,? said Sgt. Dave Bursten of the Indiana State Police.

cont. at link

Oil actually went down $2.00 per barrel due to lower demand by the US.

Let's see if the stations lower prices just as fast as they raise them when the price of a barrel of oil goes up.......

Government intervention  ;D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7421198.stm

The French president has suggested that the EU should consider capping value added tax on fuel to help countries deal with surging oil prices.

Nicolas Sarkozy warned there was no sign the oil price would dip and urged EU member states to consider his idea.

Fishermen across France are continuing to blockade ports and fuel depots in protest at rising diesel costs.

Mr Sarkozy said France, due to hold the EU's rotating presidency from July, was not alone in suffering high fuel costs.

Fighting inflation

"If the barrel continues to rise, must we maintain a VAT rate that is proportional to the price in the same conditions?" Mr Sarkozy said in an interview with French radio station RTL.

French consumers pay almost 20% VAT on the price of oil, which has risen to more than $130 (?65; 82 euros) per barrel.

Mr Sarkozy has indicated that he would like the sales tax brackets within the EU to be reviewed.

"Naturally, I can't decide it on my own," he said. "But I gather that France is not the only country confronted by the rise in the price of oil."

In Spain's north-eastern ports of Barcelona, Rosas and Port de la Selva, some 350 fishermen went on strike, mirroring the wider protests in France.

Meanwhile, in the UK, some 300 lorry drivers demanding a fuel tax rebate blocked a major route into the capital during the morning rush hour in protest.

Fishermen in Portugal and Belgium are also reported to be planning protests and Italy's Federation of Fishing Co-operatives is due to meet on Wednesday to discuss possible strike action.

The EU said such proposals would not be the best way to respond to high energy prices.

Commission taxation spokeswoman Maria Assimakopoulou said any change to the way VAT was calculated on fuel would need a proposal by the EU executive and a unanimous vote by member states.

"The question of taxes comes up very often but still we have doubts if it is the best way to react in these cases," she told Reuters.

A commission spokesman on energy said the best way to offset increased fuel costs would be to enable the fishing industry to pass on the increases to consumers.

Fishermen's friend?

The cost of a litre of diesel fuel for fishing boats in France has risen from 0.45 euros (70 US cents; 35p) to 0.70 euros ($1.10; 55p) in the past six months.

Fishermen in Channel ports including Calais, Dunkirk, Dieppe and Boulogne are continuing their strike, blockading access into the ports.

They say the increase in diesel fuel costs will push them out of business.

Depleted fish stocks mean trawlers have to use more fuel to sail further out to sea, and strict EU fishing quotas mean the fishermen are limited in the amount they can catch and sell for profit.

Mr Sarkozy also said he was looking into how money from sales taxes on oil could be channelled back towards those hardest hit by the price rises.

The French president suggested this might amount to as much as 170m euros ($268m) each quarter.

"I would like to use all this money to finance aid," Mr Sarkozy said, adding that while haulage firms could put up their prices for customers, those in the fishing industry were in a more difficult position.

Contrary to popular belief the gas stations usually have to buy from a distributor and their profit margin is very thin. They make the majority of their money inside the store. If they've already bought X amount of gas at a set price, they are going to try and hold the price so they don't lose even more money. Once you factor in CC fees, and payroll, they can be upside down on their pumps.




LOL, whatever are you insinuating?

Dude, have YOU seen Dubai?  Clearly you know very little about it.

And it's supply and demand.  The US has the power to change this. 

Howard, this post was over a month old.  The US has power to change things, but why would the oil companies want that?  They are making a killing right now. 

The weak dollar is a factor, but lets list all the reasons just to be clear...

Increased demand from China and India
George Bush (Tap and SLCPUNK)
Cartel (Smoking Guns)
Limiting Supply (Opec)
Weaker US Dollar (Yet Euro nations have higher oil prices)
Futures/Speculative Markets (Terrorism, war in Iraq, etc)
Loyalty to Stock shareholders for Gas Companies (In fairness, the obligation is to the shareholders, so you can't be too mad at Exxon and BP etc)
The rare natural disaster like Katrina which limited suppy short term in the US.

Did I leave anything out that contributes to the increased price?

Its takes 18 months for fuel to get from refinery to pump.  Sooo, 18 months ago gas at pump was $1.87. 

PC said the same thing. You both mean higher gas prices, which is something else entirely.

Sorry SLC, you are right about that.  How was the rest of the list?  But yes, their gas from the Oil is more than the US's.   We have the ability to produce gasoline from oil found in the United States.  Can France, Italy, and Great Britain say the same thing??  Do the us have leverage becuase we have our own reserves and buy so much?

Yes you did.

I don't think that Dubai has changed THAT much in the last month.   There IS competition in oil.  OPEC is not the be all and end all.   Local currency strength is not the only factor in the price of fuel at the consumer level.  

I'm not pretending that I know more about this stuff than you do, but I do know that Dubai is not funded predominantly by oil and that the OPEC, while powerful, are not the only factor in oil prices.  Canada is not a member of OPEC, yet Canadian oil is heading to the US at a huge rate.  

And to be honest, as consumers we have a choice too.  I'm really quite amazed how much fuel I can personally save by making minor changes to my driving habits.  If everyone did this, demand would decrease.  We don't all have to go and by Hybrids, but we should be taking more responsibility for what we use. 

Howard 2k, I explained that people outside of OPEC that try to go to low end up suffering and have no incentive to.  They can make more money by mirroring the Cartel.  Its the winners curse.   There actually has to be zero cartel for the true competition.  The other members don't have the supply that OPEC has to hang on a truly global scale by themselves.  As far as Dubai, a lot of Oil Money is invested there for sure.  Its the banking capital of that region.  Why wouldn't some Oil Money make it there?  I am no expert either.  You can relate this to all kind of monopolies/cartels.  We could always drive the price down on demand if we used our own oil, but how long would that last? 

Howard, I don't think its individual demand going up, its more people driving that makes demand go up.  I used to think like you did.  But we have so many more people driving each year, so we can all cut back, the demand will likely still rise anyway as more 15 year olds turn 16.  Also these damn hybrids cost a shit load.  In my car I get 34 mpg at 80 mph with the AC on high and I have a sports car.  I bought a k and n air filter and a borla exhaust and a chip for my turbo engine.  I think I did all I could for the time being.  I have to drive my work truck, but its not a real gas guzzler.

Perhaps, he loves the "Rule Of Law". Have you ever considered that?

Traffic isn't as heavy as it used to be around here....

6%.    That's the percentage of revenues in Dubai that come from oil.  
35%.   That's the percentage of the world's oil that comes from OPEC.

And sure, you could argue that it's not individual consumerism that is driving up the demand, and I'd agree.  But that doesn't mean that individual consumers cannot reduce demand.

As a nation, you Americans like to drive around in your big heavy cars with big thirsty engines.   I'm not knocking it, I'm just suggesting that you acknowledge that this is a choice.  You don't HAVE to have a 5.7l V8 to get your groceries for the supermarket to the house. 

 AP
Oil prices fall below $127 a barrel
Wednesday May 28, 7:55 am ET
By George Jahn, Associated Press Writer
Oil prices sink below $127 a barrel, extending decline of more than $3 in previous session

VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- Oil prices fell below $127 a barrel Wednesday, extending a decline of more than $3 in the previous session on a growing sense that record-high costs have cut demand for gasoline and other fuel.

The summer driving season in the U.S. began with the just-ended Memorial Day weekend, and some analysts are predicting that data will show a lackluster start.

U.S. Energy Department data covering the weekend won't be released until next week. But even ahead of those figures, other statistics indicated Americans are driving less because of bloated prices at the pump.

The Schork Report, edited by Stephen Schork, cited the latest statistics from the Federal Highway Administration, noting that "estimated vehicle miles traveled ... on all U.S. public roads for March 2008 fell 4.3 percent, or 11 billion miles, compared with March 2007.

"In fact, this is the first time estimated March travel fell since 1979 and the largest year-on-year drop in the history of the report, which dates back to 1942," said the newsletter.

Sweet crude for July delivery was down $2.45 at $126.40 a barrel in electronic trade on the New York Mercantile Exchange by afternoon in Europe. The contract fell $3.34 to settle at $128.85 a barrel Tuesday, the first day of trade after the Memorial Day holiday.

The front-month contract is now close to $9 off its all-time peak of $135.09 a barrel, hit last Thursday.

Analysts said early indications suggest Americans are spending less time on the road.

"It definitely was lower than (previous) Memorial Day weekends," said Tom Kloza, publisher and chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service.

In a research note, Edward Meir, an analyst at MF Global UK Ltd. said if trends continue "we could be heading for the first annual drop in gasoline consumption in some 17 years."

The United States is the world's largest energy consumer and fluctuations in consumer demand can impact international oil prices.

Michael Lynch, president of Strategic Energy & Economic Research Inc. in Winchester, Mass., thinks energy investors are selling on recent data suggesting Americans are driving less. That includes the weekly Energy Department reports that show gasoline demand is falling, and the Federal Highway Administration data.

Oil prices were also pressured by the dollar, which gained ground against the yen and euro. Investors who buy commodities such as oil as a hedge against inflation when the dollar falls tend to sell when the greenback strengthens. Also, a rising dollar makes oil more expensive to overseas investors.

Investors shrugged off a number of events that could have sent oil prices higher, including news that crude oil production in Mexico fell 13 percent in April compared with the previous year, the temporary shutdown of a North Sea oil platform and the latest in a spate of oil-pipeline bombings in Nigeria.

Investors also ignored continued strength in heating oil futures, which have over the last month helped send crude oil smashing through a string of new record highs. Distillate supplies worldwide are seen as strained due to strong demand for diesel from Europe and Asia.

In other Nymex trading, June heating oil futures fell nearly 4 cents to $3.7601 a gallon, while gasoline futures slipped by more than 2 cents to $3.3592 a gallon. Natural gas futures fell by just over 8 cents to $11.7190 per 1,000 cubic feet.

July Brent crude fell $2.12 to $126.17 a barrel on the ICE Futures exchange in London.

AP Business Writer Thomas Hogue contributed to this report from Bangkok, Thailand.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080528/oil_prices.html

Howard, I agree with you 100% about gas guzzlers used to haul kids to soccer and grocery store.  You are right about on a personal level you can make changes. 

World oil prices swing back towards 130 dollars

LONDON (AFP) ? World oil prices rebounded towards 130 dollars per barrel on Wednesday, reversing earlier losses in volatile trade amid lingering worries about stretched global energy supplies, analysts said.

New York's main oil futures contract, light sweet crude for July delivery, gained 64 cents to 129.49 dollars after earlier sliding as low as 125.96.

Brent North Sea crude for July rallied 66 cents to 128.97 dollars, having earlier touched an intra-day low of 126.04.

"The market still remains well supported by persistent supply concerns due to rising energy demand and limited spare capacity on the supply side," said Sucden analyst Andrey Kryuchenkov.

Both contracts had hit historic peaks above 135 dollars last Thursday as speculative trade was driven by tight global supplies and a weak dollar, which makes commodities priced in the US unit cheaper for foreign buyers.

But prices tumbled by more than three dollars on Tuesday because of profit-taking and growing jitters about demand in the United States -- which is the world's biggest consumer of energy.

The market slid "following the release of poor (US) economic data and fears that high fuel prices may curb demand," wrote analysts at energy consultancy John Hall Associates.

"Poor economic data increases the chances of a recession, potentially curbing demand for oil related products."

However, sky-high oil prices continue to spark international concern and have prompted protests worldwide over soaring fuel and food costs.

Britain's Prime Minister Gordon Brown warned on Wednesday that the world faced a "great oil shock" that could only be addressed by urgent action on a global scale.

"The global economy is facing the third great oil shock of recent decades," Brown wrote in the The Guardian newspaper. "It is now understood that a global shock on this scale requires global solutions."

Oil prices have risen more than fourfold in the last five years, underpinned by growing demand in China and other emerging economies.

The price of oil on international markets has surged by about a third since the start of 2008 and traded at 50 dollars per barrel 18 months ago -- and just 10 dollars a decade ago.

The market was also supported by unrest in crude-producing countries -- particularly Nigeria -- and OPEC's reluctance to hike output.

Indonesia said Wednesday that it would withdraw from the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) after years of declining exports.

The only Southeast Asian member of the cartel has become a net oil importer and will not bother to renew its OPEC membership at the end of this year, Energy and Mineral Resources Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro said.

OPEC, which pumps 40 percent of the world's oil, is reluctant to bend to US-led demands for it to pump more crude to help cool prices.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ghcSh3dYZwEiquwkmhknsk8j21xg (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ghcSh3dYZwEiquwkmhknsk8j21xg)

Their gas is more expensive because their health care, and retirement systems are included in the price. But I'm not talking about prices at the pump. I'm talking about price per barrel in American currency. Because the dollar is so weak, we are paying 130/barrel, but much of the world is actually paying half of that.

Much of your list is the effect, not the cause, as I stated earlier.

I'm sure he loves the rule of law.  I wouldn't question that at all.  My point is that we all know he hates Bush, so why post twice a day with vehemeent attacks on the guy when all 10 people here know how much he hates Bush (and most agree he's a horrible president).  I debated with SLC the other night and enjoyed it because the aggressive attacks and insults were absent.  It was fun.  My point is that the discussion here would be better if he (any everyone else who does it) would just leave that insults out of it.  *PC gets off his pedestal

He thinks I'm dumbing downing a personal attack on him, but I really just think the debates suffers from the insults.  Only an honest opinion.

So you scrapped your costly European vacation on account of the weak dollar. You did so to pay for your ever-increasing energy bills. Did you ever consider that the two might be related?

Conventional wisdom tells us that the trends of a falling greenback and soaring oil prices developed separately over time, driven by distinct economic and monetary factors. The rise in oil prices is a result of growing global demand, geopolitical tensions and supply constraints. In the case of the shrinking dollar, comparatively low interest rates, swelling budget and current account deficits are often to blame.

The big picture, however, suggests otherwise.

?With the dollar falling against a basket of currencies, some of which are commodity driven, what is taking place is not just a negative correlation between the dollar and crude oil, but with commodity prices in general,? says Steven Ricchiuto, Fixed Income, FX and Commodities Strategist at Handelsbanken. And that is inherently inflationary.

Others say the dollar?s devaluation is creating problems specific to the oil industry. Dr. A.F. Alhajji, an energy economist and professor, says a weak dollar limits supply by reducing drilling activities?especially in the North Sea where companies pay their costs in euros and sell their oil in dollars.

On the demand side, a weak dollar makes oil less expensive because it is increasing the purchasing power of currencies that have been gaining in value against the dollar, offsetting some of the rise in prices and boosting consumption.

The result is a Catch-22 dynamic. ?The lower dollar reduces supply and increases demand, thus raising oil prices,? explains Alhaji, who is an Associate Professor of Economics at the College of Business Administration, Ohio Northern University. ?As a result, the value of US oil imports increases, which in turn widens the trade deficit, which weakens the dollar further.?

The dollar/oil correlation may also be magnified by market speculation and the tendency of markets to drive trends to extremes.

When oil prices reached record highs on new Iranian sanctions and heightened military tensions on the Iraq/Turkey border, the dollar ? which traditionally benefits from geopolitical crises as a safe-haven trade ? collapsed to record lows against the Euro.

There?s now some concern that the dollar/oil trade could reach such speculative proportions that its negative effects may be amplified beyond economic fundamentals.

There?s little chance the fundamentals will change anytime soon.

?As long as significant downward pressure on the dollar and supply constraints remain, the current negative correlation will continue,? says Ricchiuto.

Given the US government?s currency stance ? a vaguely defined strong dollar policy combined with a laissez-faire attitude ? and the current low interest rate environment, chances for a major dollar reversal seem very slim.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/21541741

I can't think of anything that sums it up better than that.

Had a couple other things in there that contributed to price point, also an effect of  a weak dollar, that I didn't even think of.

That was a good article!  You know what is weird is how when they came out with Euro countries like Italy really benifited because their currancy wasn't worth shit compared to the dollar.  There were some winner and losers in Europe, but over all I assume it balance itself out.

That's what I've been trying to explain. Just because we are paying 130/barrel, does not mean the rest of the world is. In fact they are paying less. Although it didn't occur to me this would cause demand to go up and cut supplies, all while expanding our trade deficit. Talk about a vicious cycle. To me, that leaves us with an extremely gloomy forecast.

It also backs what I've been saying for years now, that we consume more than we manufacture, and that has come back to bite us in the ass, and in this case, our pocketbook at the pump.

Damn right, I wish some times we were a little more protectionist.....  I love free trade, but not when we are the only ones doing it.

So the US is paying $130 a barrel but everyone else is paying less?

So THAT's why gas is so cheap outside the US.

1.30.9/L here in Napanee, Ontario.

Stock futures down after GDP, jobless claims data

By MADLEN READ ? 31 minutes ago

NEW YORK (AP) ? Wall Street headed for a modestly lower opening Thursday with investors unassuaged by the government's estimate of first-quarter economic growth and an uptick in last week's unemployment claims.

The Commerce Department revised its reading of first-quarter gross domestic product to an annual rate of 0.9 percent ? above the department's previous estimate of 0.6 percent, and above fourth-quarter growth of 0.6 percent. Though the data suggests the economy may avoid a technical recession ? defined by two straight quarters of decreasing GDP ? the upward revision was not as big as many investors had hoped.

The Labor Department, meanwhile, said initial jobless claims rose by 4,000 to 372,000. The rise was a bit milder than expected, but continuing unemployment claims remained above 3 million for the fifth consecutive week, a poor sign for the job market.

A day after the stock market rose moderately in response to a better-than-expected report on durable goods orders, stock futures contracts traded slightly lower. Dow Jones industrial average futures slipped 24, or 0.19 percent, to 12,575, and Standard & Poor's 500 index futures fell 2.20, or 0.16 percent, to 1,389.30. Nasdaq 100 index futures fell 3.25, or 0.16 percent, to 2,001.75.

Treasurys fell but pared losses after the economic data. The 10-year Treasury note's yield, which moves opposite its price, was at 4.04 percent, up from 4.03 percent late Wednesday.

Wall Street will be paying attention to a speech from Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke in Basel, Switzerland, on transferring risk and financial stability.

And traders kept a close eye on crude oil, which along with gasoline prices poses a threat to consumer spending, and in turn, the overall economy. Light, sweet crude fell $1.10 to $129.93 per barrel in premarket electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange. At 10:30 a.m. EDT, the Energy Department is scheduled to release its weekly report on U.S. oil supply; analysts predict that crude inventories rose last week and gasoline inventories fell.

The dollar rose against other major currencies, while gold prices fell.

In corporate news, Costco Wholesale Corp. said its fiscal third-quarter profit rose 32 percent, above analyst expectations, as customers flocked to its warehouse clubs to find bargains on food and toiletries.

However, retailer Sears Holdings Corp. posted a $56 million first-quarter loss that was worse than Wall Street forecasts, with its customers allocating more of their budgets to gasoline and food.

Meanwhile, Bear Stearns Cos. shareholders are scheduled to meet at 10 a.m. EDT to vote on JPMorgan Chase & Co.'s acquisition of the investment bank for about $10 a share.

Overseas, Japan's Nikkei stock average closed up 3.03 percent. In afternoon trading, Britain's FTSE 100 rose 0.42 percent, Germany's DAX index advanced 0.35 percent, and France's CAC-40 rose 0.43 percent.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD90VAOF80 (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD90VAOF80)

Deja vu...

I swear we've had this discussion before.

When looking at other countries gas prices......one must be VERY careful to compare apples to apples.  Because a good portion of their price for gas covers taxes.  And those taxes cover things the government does NOT pay for over here in the good ole US of A.

Now, I'm not sure, ultimately, how the comparison will bear out once you strip out taxes...it may very well be that we are paying less.  I don't know.  But if we're going to discuss this, we need to make sure we're looking at comparable numbers.

Edit: In looking around at some UK sites, it sounds like the tax and duty on gas comprises roughly half the price....

Also remember that a UK gallon is about 1.2 US gallons....I'm not sure if the original numbers took that into account or not.

So the UK is paying around 4.19 a gallon, if the numbers above DID take into account the US gallon is smaller than a UK gallon (which is about what we pay here in CT right now WITH taxes..which equates to about 3.76 "tax stripped ).

OR

The UK is paying around 3.49 per US gallon, which would equate to our "tax stripped" price of 3.76.

Keep in mind, the above is using rough numbers....I'm sure we could get much more exact if we wanted to.

Wasn't there just an article/study out that said US drving had decreased by the largest amount in something like 30 years?  I coulda sworn I read/heard that last week....

Anyone remember it?

Shoulda read just a bit further...that's what I was talking about!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24877586/

Might be interesting to those following the thread.

Oh no!

Oil Prices fell... damn that sucks for the tycoons who gobble it up when oil is high...

Duty is 50p/litre but VAT (sales tax at 17.5%) is charged on the price AND the duty, so the actual tax is around 60% right now I think. But you also have to take into account that the dollar is so weak that the exchange rate it doesn't really reflect equivalence in terms of cost of living. It's not clear whose side of the argument that supports :) But as far as I can see, the cost of gasoline (without taxes) in the UK is a little more than in the US with the current exchange rate but would be less with a more reasonable exchange rate.

Anyway, it's obviously taxes which make the big difference - and as you say, we've been here before with where taxes go in the different countries.

Thanks for the correction.  So the price of oil is about the same here and in Europe, right?  $0.27/gallon difference?  Does anyone know what programs are being paid for by the taxes on European gas (I know it's different depending on the Country)?

No, the price of oil <> the price of gas.  They are different. 

There are close to 50 countries in Europe.   I hope you're not expecting someone to list the programs that each country contributes too from their tax revenues?

50 countries in Europe??????? I thought it was more like 15....  I never really think of Eastern Europe as Europe, silly me. 

I believe it's even more than that, thought it was 62 or something...

All those countries that were under Russian control I don't think of as Europe because I never considered Russia to be part of Europe for some reason.  When I think Europe, I think Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Germany, UK, Austria, Switzerland, etc.... 

According to this map its 47 countries....

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eu.htm

Looks like, in the UK at least, they're paying somewhere around 7% to 12% less (figuring tax rate is 50% to 60% of the price), dollar to dollar, gallon to gallon.

With exchange rate and cost of living differences, that gap may get a little wider or a little narrower, but I'm not sure how much or in which direction.

It's tough to do things like "compare what the taxes are paying for" strictly looking at gas tax.  The issues is that budgets are budgets, and everything needs funding.  Where they fund specific line items from doesn't matter, IMHO, since at the end of the day everything needs to be paid for.  If the gas tax is earmarked mostly toward road maintenance, safety, and the education fund, while the duty goes toward health care (and these are MADE UP EXAMPLES, FYI), it doesn't really matter...because taxes are taxes, and at the end of they day the total tax revenue should (in theory) take care of all your costs for all of your programs.  What funds what, specifically, means more to the bean counters than it does to "what we get for each tax" kind of comparisons.

Oil prices rebound above $127 in volatile trading

By PABLO GORONDI ? 42 minutes ago

Oil prices rebounded Friday after initially extending a decline of more than $4 in the previous session as investors sensing bargain opportunities bought back into the market.

By the afternoon in Europe, light, sweet crude for July delivery was up $1 to $127.62 a barrel in electronic trade on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

The contract fell $4.41 to settle at $126.62 a barrel overnight, the lowest settlement in two weeks and the biggest single-day price drop since March 19. The contract is now down almost $10 below the all-time high it hit last week of $135.09 a barrel.

In London, July Brent crude rose $1.69 to $128.58 a barrel on the ICE Futures exchange.

Earlier Friday, the Nymex contract had fallen as low $124.67 as a stronger dollar and falling demand outweighed a huge unexpected drop in U.S. crude oil stocks.

The U.S. Energy Department's Energy Information Administration said delays in unloading oil tankers along the Gulf Coast had led to the 8.8 million-barrel drop in crude oil inventories for the week ended May 23, and that explanation helped to lessen the impact of its report. Analysts surveyed by Platts had expected a gain of 750,000 barrels, and usually such a discrepancy would send prices soaring.

"The impact of it was lost," said David Moore, commodity strategist with the Commonwealth Bank of Australia in Sydney. "Their explanation for the decline of the crude inventories really countered the impact of the actual number."

Traders instead focused on gains in the U.S. dollar, analysts said, which hit a three-month high against the yen overnight and was at 105.53 by the afternoon in Europe. The euro was trading at $1.5524.

"The rebound of the dollar and the market pricing in no further Fed cuts is also playing less in favor of commodities," analyst Olivier Jakob of Petromatrix in Switzerland said in a research note.

Investors who buy commodities such as oil as a hedge against inflation when the dollar is falling tend to sell when the greenback strengthens. Also, a stronger dollar makes oil more expensive to investors dealing in foreign currencies.

"The market has lost some attraction on the upside," said Victor Shum, an energy analyst with Purvin & Gertz in Singapore. "The surge in pricing was so fast and so much last week, some pull back is well deserved."

Concerns about U.S. gasoline demand weighed on prices, with many investors and analysts expecting record high retail prices to continue to impinge on American driving habits.

Energy high prices are cutting consumers' appetite for fuel, so demand fell slightly over the last four weeks, EIA data indicated.

And commentaries about how high oil prices are affecting airlines and driving habits, "actually maybe causing people to think oil prices are on a level where they are having a material economic impact," said Moore.

Also putting some weight on prices were supplies of distillates, which include heating oil and diesel fuel. The EIA said stocks of distillates rose 1.6 million barrels last week, double what analysts had expected.

In Washington, meanwhile, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission revealed that it is six months into a wide-ranging investigation of U.S. oil markets, with a focus on possible price manipulation. The CFTC also announced a handful of initiatives designed to increase transparency of the energy futures markets.

Disclosure of the investigation may have contributed to oil's declines, analysts said.

In its weekly inventory report, the EIA also said gasoline supplies fell 3.2 million barrels. Analysts surveyed by energy research firm Platts had expected an increase of 400,000 barrels.

In other Nymex trading, heating oil futures rose 0.94 cent to $3.6979 a gallon while gasoline prices climbed 2.88 cents to $3.433 a gallon. Natural gas futures rose 11.3 cents to $11.587 per 1,000 cubic feet.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i5TtajgUpSm7KY5jf-lCJGHBB-tAD9100A9G1 (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i5TtajgUpSm7KY5jf-lCJGHBB-tAD9100A9G1)

Well damn, arne't we lucky? We're getting a break...

It's all too complicated for me to follow.  Do you know who is taxed more overall...the US or Europeon counrties?

You can't reverse engineer the price of oil from the price of petrol without knowing all the variables and constants.

They're not the same.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/30/news/economy/oil_cftc/index.htm?cnn=yes

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Amid soaring oil prices that some say are caused by nothing more than rampant speculation, the government Thursday announced a wide ranging probe into oil price manipulation and said it would get more information on the effect investors are having on the market.

The measures, undertaken by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission after pressure from angry lawmakers, do two things.

First, they'll attempt to gather more information from index funds and other non-commercial users of oil. They'll also seek information on oil trades made outside the U.S. on exchanges like the IntercontinentalExchange Europe (ICE) where the CFTC has no oversight and has been unable to get more detailed information.

The second thing on the CFTC's agenda is an actual investigation into possible price manipulation - most likely by a commercial user of oil like a production company, shipping company, or storage company.
Information gathering

Recent investor interest in commodities is an issue of intense debate. Some say investors, who have been funneling money into oil and other commodities over the last several months amid rising inflation and falling stock prices, are unjustifiably driving up the price of oil and gas simply because they have no other place to put their money.

Others say tight supply and strong demand are the real reasons behind this investor interest, and the market is functioning properly to limit demand and increase supply.

CFTC has previously said that it has not found any evidence that speculators were artificially inflating prices.

"Data used by Commission staff show that price changes are largely unrelated to fund trading," according to written testimony before a Senate hearing earlier this month by CFTC Chief Economist Jeffrey Harris. "Broad-based manipulative forces are not driving the recent higher futures prices in commodities across-the-board."

Neither Harris nor any other economist at the CFTC could not be reached for comment.

According to a chart presented in its congressional testimony, it appears the CFTC used data from 2007 to reach its conclusion.

Additional reporting by index funds and other non-commercial buyers of crude will help CFTC make better analysis, said Michael Haigh, head of U.S. commodities research at the investment bank Soci?t? G?n?rale and a former economist at the CFTC.

Even so, he doesn't expect the CFTC's overall conclusion - that investors aren't unjustifiably driving up oil prices - to change much.
More regulation on the way?

But Haigh said oil traders see this request for additional information as perhaps a precursor to broader regulation, like increasing the amount of contracts speculators are allowed to hold or raising the amount of money investors have to put down to buy those contracts.

"The fear that this might happen may drive people out of the market," he said. "There could be a run for the gates."

Oil prices fell Thursday by over $4, one of the biggest declines in recent weeks. One expert attributed the slide to the investigation.

"The traders now know that someone is looking over their shoulder," said Michael Greenberger, a professor at the University of Maryland and a former CFTC official. "Their phony sales are being watched, and in one day there was the biggest drop in 2 1/2 months."

If there is a run for the gates, Haigh said prices may or may not fall, but liquidity would be reduced, leaving the market more vulnerable to manipulation by a single participant.
Possible manipulation

And that's the second thing the CFTC is looking into - "practices surrounding the purchase, transportation, storage, and trading of crude oil and related derivative contracts," the agency said in a statement.

This most likely means manipulation of the physical oil market, not typically done by speculators but rather by commercial players who might literally withhold oil from the market in an attempt to drive prices higher.

The CFTC has found evidence of this in the past. BP recently settled a suit that alleged the company tried to corner the propane market to inflate prices in 2003 and 2004. BP agreed to pay a $303 million settlement.

Haigh thinks it's likely CFTC will find evidence of this again given that the agency has been investigating for six months and has now chosen to make it public. But he stressed that a single player acting alone would in all likelihood not have a huge influence on prices.

"It's difficult to imagine a price runup of $90 to $135 being done by one entity," he said.

He believes the CFTC took the unusual step of announcing the investigation to placate angry lawmakers who may be tempted to enact broader regulations on the oil futures market that would hamper trading.

One analyst said the CFTC investigation will have little effect.

"This investigation is just a way for the government to divert attention away from the fact that it hasn't created a viable energy policy," said Mike Fitzpatrick, an analyst at the brokerage MF Global in New York. "Ultimately, fundamentals rule the markets...this investigation is going to wind up producing nothing."

Not everyone agrees fundamentals rule the market.

"There is a theory that the price of crude oil is being driven up not by supply and demand principles, but by speculators using what are called dark markets, markets that can't be watched by the public or regulators, to manipulate the price of crude," said Greenberger. 

They still went up 6 cents today at my local pump...

Read my posts, I have been screaming this shit and most hear called me crazy.  Ha.

The Fed gets about 13 cents on a gallon; the state is much more, depending on where you live. In my state, they get about 35 cents.

Europe is taxed more on virtually everything, but one must look at the benefits. How much came out of your check for health care? What is your rent?

Indeed.

Canada is one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world, yet if I fall down a flight of stairs, no credit card or cash needed..just my health card ;)

Yet, standard of living is higher in America... now why is that?

In your personal opinion, or do you have any evidence?

I'd say the standard of living is probably greater in countries that provide health care to all it's citizens, than in countries that do not.

Oil prices slide against stronger dollar

5/31/2008 8:22:00 AM | Alg?rie Presse Service

LONDON (Great Britain) - Oil prices fell further on Friday by stabilizing at some 126 dollars a barrel, following accelerated losses on Thursday amid the stronger U.S. dollar and the concerns about the global demand although the sharp fall of the American oil stocks since 2004. The Brent lost 42 cents to 126.47 dollars a barrel in London, whereas New York's main oil futures contract light sweet crude shed $1.07 to 125.68 dollars a barrel,' after closing Thursday 126.62 dollars with a fall of 4.41 dollars.

http://www.stockhouse.com/News/FinancialNewsDetailFeeds.aspx?n=10877879 (http://www.stockhouse.com/News/FinancialNewsDetailFeeds.aspx?n=10877879)

More people come to America for Opportunity than any other country in the world.  These are not my beliefs, these are facts.  Look, I love Italy.  My family is from there.  I love their laid back attitude.  I would love to live there, but for me to enjoy it like I would want to, I would have to be loaded and not really sure how easy it is there to get a high paying job.  I am not saying America is the best country, but historically, is the best place to build a future for your family.  And if sitting in line for hours at the doctor is a good thing, then I don't want it. 

Standard of living could also encompass culture and climate as well. Its not just limited to wealth.

I would agree. Data shows that Americans actually have a negative savings, millions going into foreclosures, and millions without health insurance. It also shows record high credit card debt per household. Not exactly what I'd call a "higher standard of living." Sure, we have lots of nice shiny objects, leather furniture, luxury cars, and so on...but the majority have zero true assets and take less vacation time than other countries. Medical bills are the number one reason for bankruptcy in America right now too....


It's best to be honest about our healthcare here in America before attacking others. What your describing sounds just like an HMO to me.

Toronto is the most culturally diverse city in the world, over 40 ethnic groups are represented..are you sure?


Is this directed at Canada?

If so, I don't know what to do but chuckle since the alleged lineups to see a doctor here are grossly exaggerated.

I live in a small town and have never had to wait longer than 10 minutes to see a doctor, however if there is a lineup to see one in a major city like Toronto, don't you think that's understandable seeing as how there are millions of other people who need to see a doctor too?

My Dad had heart surgery last year and it didn't cost him a penny..would you be able to say the same?

I wait an average of 20-30 minutes, then another 10-30 in the exam room.

If I make an appointment to see my primary doc it's a 6-8 wk wait. Specialist, could be 3 months.

Dentist, usually 2 months out.

I can go to a walk in clinic in a pinch, but I'd pay double my deductible, and wait for hours.

That's Blue Cross.

You're living the "American Dream." :hihi:

OPEC chief insists speculation behind price rises

06.01.08, 11:05 AM ET

ALGIERS (Thomson Financial) - OPEC president Chakib Khelil again blamed speculators for the steep rise in oil prices Saturday, insisting that supply was not a problem.

'There is no problem of supply, the problem is much more linked to speculation,' he told a press conference with visiting French ecology and energy minister Jean-Louis Borloo.

He also said the price of oil was closely linked to the exchange rate of the US dollar, which has fallen steeply against other major currencies.

'The consensus is that the crisis is not over and there is going to be a continuing impact on the prices of oil because of speculation,' he added.

Khelil, who is also the Algerian energy minister, had made similar remarks on Monday in an interview with Spanish national radio.

'If OPEC decides to raise production ... these hikes will not really lower the price,' he said then.

He said Saturday that the cartel of producer nations would not review the situation again until it meets in Vienna on September 9.

Oil prices are still extremely volatile, closing in New York at $127.35 a barrel Friday for light sweet crude for July delivery, up 73 cents on the day but well short of earlier in the week, when crude surged beyond $135 on concerns about tightening energy supplies.

Khelil also linked the diesel fuel market to the rise in oil prices.

'This crisis originates from the introduction of ethanol onto the market, which contributed to reduced diesel production,' said Khelil.

Less diesel fuel production in turn increased oil prices across the board, said Khelil, highlighting the impact of biofuels on oil markets.

OPEC, which pumps 40 percent of the world's oil, is reluctant to bend to demands that it produce more to dampen the red-hot market.

Analysts said recent speculative oil trading had been driven by tight global supplies, the weak dollar, unrest in key crude producers like Nigeria, and OPEC's unwillingness to boost output.

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/06/01/afx5067304.html (http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/06/01/afx5067304.html)

You compare a small population of Canada to the US?  Are you serious?  Why do so many Canadians come to the US to places like Chicago, NY, and Boston for major surgeries?  Oh I forgot, because they have to wait in line, where in America if you want to see the best Doctor and can't wait, it can be done.  Its well known most of the time for minor stuff, stay in Canada, for the big time surgery, come to America.  I know several Canadians that now live in the US.  The often mention how they love not shoveling snow and often mention how beautiful the women are here.  Those two things alone add to the "standard of living."  I don't know any of them dying to go back to Canada, that is for sure.  Subsidized Health care generally leads to a lower quality health care.  A private heath care generally may cost more, but you get higher quality.  How can it be free and higher quality?  Its impossible.

My Dad had double bipass surgery, that's not a "major" surgery?

Why would he go to the states, and pay probably a quarter of a million dollars for something he could have done for free here in Canada ???

Because America generally has some of the very best doctors in the world?  And if you want experimental doctors, go to Europe.  But last I checked, no Americans are going to Canada for treatment.

The USA doesn't get snow ???


Canadian women aren't beautiful?

Give me a break.

Why don't you take sometime off from church and actually come see Canada for yourself?


Link?


Because it's not "free?"

A portion of each Canadian citizen's taxes goes to supporting our population's health care costs.

Because they have to pay!

 :confused:

The reason Canadian health cards now have the owner's picture on it is because years ago Americans were using phony Canadian health cards to get free treatments and surgeries here in Canada.

Who got stuck with the bill?

The Canadian taxpayers.

Sounds like America, where we have millions of illegals.

Not in the South East or South West.  hey pal, I can only tell you what your own tell me.  Toronto is a badass clean town though with some nice strip clubs.  That is for sure.  But look at your demographics in comparison to the US.  Its not apples to apples.

not here in Las Vegas.   we might get some a lil dusting every 5 years or so, and mount charleston is always covered in snow, but thats outside of the city.


on topic, the answer to the oil problem is simple.  Iraq.   We've done so much to help them and they owe us BIG TIME.  Why not just hook it up with some oil?

Yeah, quite clearly, despite the hundreds of thousands of dead and injured civilians and the fact that the standard of living there is considerably lower than it was, they should be very grateful.   

The US has the highest obesity rates in the developed world. 

casualties are a fact of war.   but i believe we've helped the people of Iraq and we are also going to help them rebuild and we are funding it.

So....  We have slobs.  In a recent study though, child obesity rate has gone down.  Italy and US of A are my favorite for the women.  Brazil is loaded as well.  Canada and the UK.... look elsewhere.

The Iraqis only ever went a few days without water, electricity, and other basic utilities while under Saddam's reign..

Saddam also killed hundreds of thousands of his own people, including gassing civilians. 

But they atleast had water everyday.... :confused:

We essentially murdered over 650,000 Iraqis, and made refugees out of about a million.

Yea, it's about time they paid us back for all the help we gave them.




Yup, with the gas we supplied him, and when he did it twenty years ago, we didn't do a fucking thing.

Like you give a shit anyway? You're kid killing douchebag Bush killed four times as many as you cheered from the sidelines, sicko.

I'm a sicko?

C'mon punk, lets keep it civil and intelligent if possible.

Iraq can pay for rebuilding itself with its oil reserves.   Give it to us  ;D

You cheered this war all the way in, and defend it today. You justify the murder of 650,000 by referring to the murder of 1/6 twenty years ago....which is irrational and fucked up.

And yet it's been said that a multitude of Iraqis vastly preferred living under Saddam's power when compared to the living conditions they've been faced with since 2003.


It's more than can be said for the current situation.

Fear of sapped demand pushes oil below $127

By PABLO GORONDI | Associated Press Writer
6:53 AM EDT, June 2, 2008

Oil dropped below $127 a barrel Monday on worries that soaring prices have eaten away at demand and a U.S. probe into futures trading continued to weigh on the market.

Light, sweet crude for July delivery was down $1.04 to $126.31 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange by midday in Europe.

On Friday, the contract settled at $127.35 a barrel, up 73 cents after dipping below $125 and then rebounding.

In London, July Brent crude futures fell $1.03 to $126.75 a barrel on the ICE Futures exchange in London.

Jitters about record high fuel and energy prices -- particularly in the U.S., which has just started its summer driving season -- have helped to pull oil off the $135.09 a barrel trading record hit May 22. Data from the U.S. Energy Department and Federal Highway Administration and several surveys in recent days suggest American consumers are driving less.

The decision by some countries in Asia, like Indonesia, to lower subsidies on oil products, also was seen as having a bearish effect on the market.

Additional selling pressure came with last week's announcement from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission about an investigation into possible price manipulation in oil futures markets. The commission also announced new rules designed to increase transparency of U.S. and international energy futures markets.

"There are more concerns on the high pricing we have seen, that it will have a negative impact on demand, and the fact that the CFTC is expanding its investigation of manipulation in the oil markets," said Victor Shum, an energy analyst with Purvin & Gertz in Singapore.

"The seesaw we've seen in the last few days is an indication that the oil market may have peaked," Shum said.

"Having said that ... the reality is that even though we have crude off the peak of $135 there are still supply-side issues going forward," he said. "The hurricane season is certainly one factor to contend with."

Tropical Storm Arthur formed Saturday afternoon -- one day before the official start of the 2008 Atlantic Hurricane season -- and though it caused the temporary closure of two of Mexico's oil export ports, it wasn't expected to cause any severe disruptions to oil shipments. On Sunday, the storm weakened to a tropical depression.

"Tropical storm Arthur, the first of this season, gave more support to the market," said a research note by JBC Energy in Vienna, Austria.

Investors also had other supply worries on their mind.

On a trip to the Mideast over the weekend, U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said there is "no quick fix" to high oil prices because it is an issue of supply and demand. He was on the trip to deliver a message to officials of Saudi Arabia and other oil-producing nations that soaring oil prices are putting a burden on the global economy.

Global demand remains strong while "production capacity has not seen new development," Paulson said Sunday in Qatar. His trip was designed to urge Mideast producers to allow more outside investment to boost output.

The day before, though, the current president of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries again blamed the weak U.S. dollar, speculation and the subprime crisis for the spiraling price of oil.

Algerian Energy Minister Chakib Khelil said the cartel will make no new decision on production levels until its Sept. 9 meeting in Vienna. He said oil's record prices do not reflect markets conditions, an oft-repeated OPEC position.

In other Nymex trading, heating oil futures fell 2.07 cents to $3.6460 a gallon while gasoline prices declined 1.07 cents to $3.3375 a gallon. Natural gas futures were down 3.6 cents to $11.667 per 1,000 cubic feet.

http://www.courant.com/business/nationworld/ats-ap_business12jun02,0,7646294.story (http://www.courant.com/business/nationworld/ats-ap_business12jun02,0,7646294.story)

Overall?

I'm pretty sure it's the European Countries.  Or by and large it is, anyway.

And by that, I mean if you add up ALL the taxes paid (sales, duty, straight, income, etc), I believe that, on average, the European pay more taxes per capita than the US does.

Of course, they get "more" from their goverment than we do...like health care, more education subsidy, etc, etc.

Anyone know when the "official" holiday weekend travel numbers come out?

I've heard they're going to be down quite a bit, more than predicted...and that the speculators are thinking this might be the week the bottom drops out of the oil market.

We'll see....

Saddam also worked as a counterweight of sorts with Iran. Now, all the right can talk about is the "vacuum" that will occur "once we leave." Well, who created that scenario? Dipshits.

I hope you are right!!! : ok:

Filled up @ 4.39 a gallon for regular unleaded yesterday.

Wall Street moves higher after Bernanke speech

By JOE BEL BRUNO ? 19 minutes ago

NEW YORK (AP) ? Wall Street meandered in directionless trading Tuesday as investors were torn between troubling fears about inflation and more reassuring signs that the U.S. economic downturn is nearing an end.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke reiterated expectations that the economy will rebound during the second half due to interest rate cuts, Fed loans to banks and tax rebates. But, the Fed chief, in a speech in Barcelona, Spain, said the economy faces headwinds with rising prices for food and energy ? a signal that interest rates will remain on hold.

Inflation-weary investors are wrangling with record oil and gasoline prices, which last month peaked at $135.09 a barrel. Though oil has since retreated, the fear is that higher energy costs are already hurting strapped consumers whose spending accounts for more than two-thirds of economic growth.

The market also remains on guard for more bad news from the nation's banks and brokerages. Financial companies tumbled for a second straight session on reports that investment bank Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. is facing a fiscal second-quarter loss and might need a capital infusion.

"The push-and-pull here is the market has shifted its focus from a fear of an economic slowdown to a fear of inflation," said Arthur Hogan, chief market analyst at Jefferies & Co. "For the rest of this week we're going to get economic data that could be the bomb that adversely effects our impression of inflation, and right now investors are basically just holding on."

Indeed, trading was light on Tuesday as Wall Street awaited a spate of key economic readings due the rest of the week,including the Labor Department's employment report on Friday.

In late morning trading, the Dow Jones industrials rose 5.04, or 0.04 percent, to 12,508.86.

Broader market indexes were also slightly higher. The Standard & Poor's 500 index added 3.77, or 0.27 percent, to 1,389.44; the Nasdaq composite rose 15.32, or 0.61 percent, to 2,506.85.

Bernanke's comments set off sharp reactions across other markets. The biggest response came in the dollar, which rallied after Bernanke said he'd remain "attentive" to the sagging currency because of its impact on inflation.

Oil prices also fell. Light, sweet crude for July delivery shed $1.27 to $126.49 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

And, expectations that interest rates will be placed on hold also pressured government debt. The 10-year Treasury note's yield, which moves opposite its price, was at 4.01 percent, up from 3.97 percent late Monday.

Stocks did get some lift after a report on factory orders showed an unexpected surge in April and a barometer of capital spending by U.S. businesses also jumped, according to government data.

In corporate news, Lehman Brothers dropped $1.84, or 5.4 percent, to $31.99 amid reports it may raise up to $4 billion in fresh capital to help cover losses stemming from the credit crisis.

Meanwhile, Residential Capital LLC said it needs more funding in order to stay whole. The mortgage lender said it is borrowing another $450 million from its parent GMAC, raising its loan to $1.2 billion, and estimated it needs about $2 billion in cash by the end of the month to meet liquidity demands.

Toll Brothers Inc. reported that write-downs of land joint ventures led the luxury homebuilder to a quarterly loss of $93.7 million. The results were better than Wall Street expected, and shares rose 58 cents, or 2.8 percent, to $21.54.

Staples Inc. shares were unchanged after raising its hostile bid for Dutch office supplies distributor Corporate Express NV to $2.6 billion. Last month, Corporate Express rebuffed two offers from Staples and struck a surprise deal to buy a French competitor, Lyreco SAS.

Rick Wagoner, chairman and CEO of General Motors Corp., said Tuesday the company plans to halt production at four North American plants, and is considering a sale of its Hummer brand. Wagoner said high oil prices have altered consumer behavior, and that he believes it is a permanent shift. GM rose 49 cents, or 2.9 percent, to $17.94.

The Russell 2000 index of smaller companies rose 3.38, or 0.46 percent, to 744.40.

Advancing issues outpaced decliners by 4 to 3 on the New York Stock Exchange, where volume came to 324.2 million shares.

Overseas, Japan's Nikkei stock average closed down 1.60 percent. In afternoon trading, Britain's FTSE 100 fell 0.05 percent, Germany's DAX index fell 0.41 percent, and France's CAC-40 rose 0.14 percent.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD912ME0O0 (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD912ME0O0)

^^I was  unaware that anyone still took him seriously.

Fucking fascists.

For real!!!

The US of fucking KKK is full of them.

Oil prices down today as demand is lowered.

Well gee golly, imagine that!

Something I've been telling these dopes for years now. Driving these wasteful vehicles, and wasting energy, helps drive prices up. That's why I asked a few pages back, what everybody did to conserve energy? Everybody wanted to attack me and call me a chicken little rather than take some personal responsibility.

Sometimes it's too much. I'm more conservative than these guys, and they aren't even aware of it.  :hihi:

My CRV has this handy little display by my speedometer that lets me know how many mpg's I'm getting.

I have found two settings that allow me to get 60 mpg easy.  One is roughly at 62 mph on the highway, and one is exactly 41 on the streets.

Yeah, I get honked at a lot and get one-fingered salutes, but I don't care!  Funny thing is, I pull right up to them when the stoplight is red!  :rofl:

I downgraded from a "performance" car to something more sensible.   The Suzuki SX4 tells me my current L/100km and it's pretty handy.  Coupled with cruise control on the highway it's a more boring but less expensive ride.

And for speed, I have the bike.  A "slow" bike but still kicks the snot out of the performance car I had in both performance and economy.   And fun.

4 cylinder cars with turbos are the economical way to get performance and fuel economy.

I think we'll be seeing a lot more of those smaller cars with turbos and superchargers. My daughter just got a 4 banger with a turbo and it's a blast to drive, even as an automatic. Gets killer MPG, although working on it's gonna be a bitch, they really shoehorned that thing in, Jesus.

Edit: I hope we can have more of a European vision when it comes to cars now. We don't need these huge engines-never have. We can have a nice sized sedan, with a smaller engine paired with a supercharger or turbo...diesel plus turbo is even better!

True, but that's what I just downgraded from (WRX).  It was pretty thirsty.   You're right though, they ARE a good compromise of the two, and I do miss her.   Except when on the bike.  :)

Sort of on topic, sort of off:

I'm starting to look at buying a new vehicle.

I'm currently driving a 2001 Subaru Forester.

I have a LONG, mostly highway commute (60 miles each way).

I need 4wd or awd, because I live in the snowbelt of CT, and I work in a place that doesn't take bad weather as a good reason to not be at work....if the docs are here, I have to be here.

And fuel economy is the primary concern.  Hybrids are possible, but it looks like the 4wd versions really lose their "benefit" on the highway.

I don't need big...even the Forester is more room than I need...because this car literally is only used for my back and forth to work.  I am 6 ft 3, though, so "roomy" is sorta nice.

I don't need "sexy" because I don't care.

I would like "cheap" because, well...lets face it.....the economy sucks and it's always nice to save a buck.  Plus, I hate car payments.

Anyone have any suggestions.

I'm thinking about another Subie...maybe a sedan to squeek out another couple/few MPG's.  But I figured I'd throw this out to the group to see if there are any other suggestions.

Any roomy vehicle that has been converted to LPG. Petrol starts the car, then press a button to run on LPG.

Not sure how available it is in the USA though.

My car is currently averaging 28.1mpg, thats over a 3 month period using the car on the motorway and local journeys.
Its crazy really, but I knew that was the deal when i bought the car.

I know fuel prices are going crazy at the moment, but when the UK govt is taxing 70%+ on fuel, I dont think you have to point the finger at the people at the fuel stations... The govt are equally if not more responsible. They have it sussed, the public transport is pathetic unless you are live in London, and then its not great. So you have no alternative but to drive and pay the fuel prices.

Another side note: On TV last night it was reported that 'used' SUV prices had fallen 5% whilst cars with a 1.6l and less engine had risen by the same amount.

The WRX is a badass ride!!  I have an Audi TT quattro 1.8 turbo.  I have it chipped, k and n, with borla exhaust.  At 80mph, with AC on high, i get 34 mpg.  That is respectable. 

137

I live in the snowbelt of Canada (all of it) so AWD was high on my list.   The Subaru AWD was FANTASTIC.  I never once used winter tires and never once felt like I was losing control of the car.  AWD + Common Sense got me through every situation.

However - in my quest for something cheaper to buy, cheaper to run and cheaper to insure, but still AWD I was led to the Suzuki SX4.   The car is cheap, the fuel economy is better (but still not fantastic), insurance is more reasonable and it's still very, very practical. 

http://www.suzukiauto.com/sx4_crossover/

Oil rises more than $10 to new record high
Friday June 6, 2:27 pm ET

Oil prices shoot past record above $138 a barrel on prediction of price spike, Mideast fears

NEW YORK (AP) -- Oil prices have shot up more than $10 to a new record above $138 a barrel after a Morgan Stanley analyst predicted prices could hit $150 by the Fourth of July. Traders were also rattled by rising tensions in the Middle East.

The meteoric surge builds on a huge jump on Thursday and sets the stage for the biggest two-day gain in the history of the New York Mercantile Exchange. A further weakening of the dollar helped keep prices high.

Light, sweet crude for July delivery jumped as high as $138.36 on the Nymex, then eased to $137.81, up $10.02.

someone is posting on another board that gas is going up 50 cents in the next 48 hours.  :(

I read an article online about people buying old Geo's and flipping them.

Those bad boys run on 3 cylinders and can get up to 58 mpg on the highway EASY.

I had one of those about ten years. OMG my friends made fun of me, but back in those days, I'd fill it up for about ten bucks and drive it for friggin two weeks. The brake pads were about 3 inches long.... :hihi:

I got rid of it because I didn't feel it was safe to haul kids around in. They'd just bury us all in it I figured.

Coming from someone who looks at Motor Vehicle Crash data a LOT....they wouldn't have buried you in it.  There wouldn't have been enough left of it to function as a coffin.

The Geo Metros and the old Yugos are infamous for doing passible well in crash test, but pretty much disintegrating in "real world" crashes.

http://www.crashtest.com/geo/index.htm

How does the prius do in crash tests?  That thing gets 48 mpg in city and 45 on the highway last I heard.

When I drove it, I felt it was only a step up from a motorcycle, in that I wouldn't be using my knees as bumpers. But that was about it. Still a great little car though.

Crash Test 2004 - 2008 Toyota Prius IIHS Frontal Impact (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wg45haoZDg)

Well, we have not had a crash Yet, but I got my wife one in 07 and she regularly gets 55 mpg  (or more). When I drive, I am a bit more, shall we say, impatient, and get only 51-52. Sometimes if I am a real ass I get 49. Still, when we fill it up every 2 weeks or so it costs $20. So I am pleased and the wife just loves the car.

55 is great.

well gas is around $4.20 in LV  :(

My husband and I own a well to do construction company here in the Pacific N.W.. We have an estimated 75 pieces of heavy equipment, 10 truck and trailers, 6 belly, side and end dumps, water trucks, service trucks, and personal company vehicles to fuel up everyday, not including our personal vehicles. Would anyone like to know our monthly fuel & oil expenses lol.  Really it is not funny at all, but this is our survival, and to be honest I am not complaining just venting.  I was just reading all of this and felt like I would share, or maybe I am just wishing we could haul all of our dirt and rocks in a subaru. ;D

Hahaha, driving ON dirt and rocks is OK in a Subaru!

Hauling dirt and rocks not so much!  I miss my Forester.  :(

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/feb/11/iraqandthemedia.news


Mr Murdoch said the price of oil would be the war's main benefit on the world economy.

"The greatest thing to come out of this for the world economy, if you could put it that way, would be $20 a barrel for oil. That's bigger than any tax cut in the any country."

Today a barrel of Brent crude costs $31.68 while US light crude costs $34.53. During the last war on Iraq in 1991, the price of oil doubled to $40 a barrel. A $10 increase in the cost of oil is seen as the equivalent of a 0.2% cut in economic growth in America and Europe.

Mr Murdoch's comments come just a week after he told Fortune magazine in the US that war could fuel an economic boom.

"We're keeping our heads down, managing the businesses, keeping our profits up. Who knows what the future holds? I have a pretty optimistic medium and long-term view but things are going to be pretty sticky until we get Iraq behind us. But once it's behind us, the whole world will benefit from cheaper oil which will be a bigger stimulus than anything else," he told Fortune.

Mr Murdoch believes there is no doubt that President Bush will be re-elected if he wins the war with Iraq and the US economy remains healthy.

"He will either go down in history as a very great president or he'll crash and burn. I'm optimistic it will be the former by a ratio of two to one," the Australian-born media magnate who now holds US citizenship told The Bulletin.

How ironic.

'This Modern World' comic  http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2008/06/03/tomo/ (http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2008/06/03/tomo/).  That 80's hair is killing me.

Gas price record above $4.02, oil slips

Price at the pump heads higher after breaking the $4 barrier; oil softens after record-breaking rally.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Gas prices set another record above $4.02 a gallon Monday, while crude oil prices eased following a massive spike in the previous session.

The national average price for a gallon of gasoline climbed to a record $4.023 a gallon, which is more than 10% higher than $3.692 a month ago and nearly 29% higher than the $3.091 average a year ago, according to the AAA figures.

The average price is $4 a gallon or more in 22 states and the District of Columbia, according to the survey. California pays the most for gasoline, averaging $4.45 a gallon, followed by Connecticut at $4.32 and Alaska at $4.30. Other states above $4 are Hawaii, Illinois, Massachusetts, Maine, Michigan, Nevada, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Washington and West Virginia.

Missouri has the lowest average price at $3.83, followed by South Carolina at $3.83.

Gasoline prices in the survey have risen for 32 of the past 34 days, setting records on 30 of those days.

The price of diesel fuel, used by truckers hauling goods across the country, rose 1.1 cent to $4.773 a gallon. That's just under 2 cents below the all-time high set May 30.

Meanwhile, light, sweet crude for July delivery fell $2.66 to $135.90 a barrel in pre-market trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

On Friday, the contract shot up nearly $11 - the largest single-day jump on record - to settle at a record $138.54 a barrel.

"In this current emotionally-charged market, high prices have now become the justification for high prices," said oil industry analyst Stephen Schork in a research note published Monday.

"Crude oil may go to $150, it may even go to $200," Schork said. But he warns that the oil market is being driven by a "mania" and is showing signs of a price bubble.

"When this bubble pops, this mania will end the same way all manias before it did, i.e. crashing and giving back all of the accrued gains," he said.

Friday's rally was fueled by a combination of geopolitical jitters, the dollar's decline and a report from Morgan Stanley predicting oil could reach $150 a barrel by July 4.

Last week's runup in crude prices helped push the Dow Jones industrial average down nearly 400 points Friday. Many investors see higher gas prices crimping household budgets, damping consumer spending and undermining the economy.

Stocks opened moderately higher Monday as investors hoped to recover from last week's losses.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/09/markets/oil/?postversion=2008060909 (http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/09/markets/oil/?postversion=2008060909)

_________________________________________________________

Pretty sad when it's only around 5 cents a litre in Saudi Arabia :-\

More evidence that has anything to do with Supply and Demand or a weak dollar but bullshit fear and profit boosting.

Again, speculation is the effect, not the cause.

Speculation is the effect of high profits cause by prior speculation?  The cause of increased barrel prices NOW is speculation of shit that ISN'T happening. 

Based on what happens in currency markets, in particular our dollar, and middle east tensions (policy). That drives speculation.

You are putting the cart ahead of the horse.

What has happend i the middle east in the 6 years we have been there that affected Oil?  That excuse is tired.  When the lebanese fought israel last year, gas was $1.87.  That was tension, oh I forgot, there is no oil in Israel.  Oops.  The Dollar has been getting stronger lately, so there goes that theory.  There hasn't been a hurricane in over a year.  Again, there goes that excuse.  Yet, the higher the barrel price, the higher the profit, now there is an answer!!!

What has happened in the middle east?

Are you serious?

The dollar is weak. This is not a "theory" it's economics 101.

Here's a question for you. Oil demand has gone down in America lately because of gas prices, yet demand has gone up in other countries at the same time. Why is that?

Again, gas was $1.87 last year when the middle east was more volatile.
What countries exactly has gas demand risen?  India and China right?  The numbers are not reflecting accurately what is going on with supply and demand. If our demand is dropping, an India or Chinese increase is somewhat negated.  Why don't people ever think gas prices are what they are because people are still willing to pay for it?  Now that is economics.

Saudi calls for talks; oil experts see no change

By DONNA ABU-NASR, Associated Press Writer 54 minutes ago

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - Saudi Arabia will call for a summit between oil producing countries and consumer states to discuss soaring energy prices, Information and Culture Minister Iyad Madani said Monday.
ADVERTISEMENT

The kingdom will also work with OPEC to "guarantee the availability of oil supplies now and in the future," the minister said following the weekly Cabinet meeting, held in the seaport city of Jiddah.

Madani said that the kingdom has informed "all oil companies it deals with as well as countries that consume oil that (the kingdom) is ready to provide them with any additional oil they need."

"The Saudi Cabinet has instructed Oil Minister Ali al-Naimi to call for a meeting in the near future that will include representatives of oil-producing countries, consumers and companies that work in extracting, exporting and selling oil to look into the price hike, its causes and how to deal with it," said Madani.

The Saudi announcement comes just three days after the biggest single-day price leap ever, when oil surged more than $11 to surpass $139 per barrel.

Retail gas prices rose further above $4 Monday in the United States, the world's largest oil consumer, following the unprecedented price rally.

The kingdom will work to ensure there will be no "unwarranted and unnatural oil price hikes that could affect international economies, especially those of developing countries," said Madani.

"There is no justification for the current rise in prices," he said.

On Monday, light, sweet crude for July delivery fell $4.18 to $134.36 a barrel in volatile trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

"It's not a situation that's going to move the market today," said Phil Flynn at Alaron Trading Corp. in Chicago, suggesting that there it might have a more long term effect. "I do think a conference is warranted, we need to sit down."

Jim Ritterbusch, president of the U.S.-based energy consultancy Ritterbusch and Associates cautioned that such meetings have taken place in the past and could be more an effort to calm the market without taking concrete measures.

"It's not anywhere near as significant as if they called an emergency OPEC meeting," he said. "It seems to me to be more political than anything ... They're reaching their worry threshold."

The Saudis are concerned that sustained high oil prices will eventually slacken the world's appetite for oil, affecting them in the long run.

Investors last month shrugged off news that Saudi Arabia had increased production by 300,000 barrels a day after a visit from President Bush, who sought a major production increase.

Energy experts say most producers have little ability to expand output. The exception is Saudi Arabia, which is producing about 9.4 million barrels a day and has the ability to increase production by about 2 million barrels a day, but has not done so.

"In the current circumstances, every barrel that can be used is being used," said Addison Armstrong, director of market research at Tradition Energy. "Unless the Saudis and OPEC suddenly produce some oil that nobody has heretofore known about, then this meeting is likely to produce no meaningful outcomes."

The current president of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, Chakib Khelil, has said that the cartel will make no new decision on production levels until its Sept. 9 meeting in Vienna.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080609/ap_on_bi_ge/saudi_oil

Why is it a shock to anybody that we have high oil prices with a group of Oil Men in the White House?

The same group who advocate a weak dollar and never ending war on top of one of the largest oil reserves on the planet.

The Saudis are always the last to perform to capacity.  Historically they are the member that wants to restrict out put to increas the price per barrell.

I thought it was China and India.  So  now its back to Bush.  How about the duty to the stock share holders of these companies?   SLC, you give us a new reason every day as to why gas is so high.  I have been saying since day one, its about the money.  And its like this on purpose.  And its not so much supply vs. demand.

What is wrong with you? Reading comprehension is not your forte huh?

I've outlined it all in this thread. There are many factors, some are cause some are effect.

If I chose to post one or two, that does not negate the others.

You can get your panties in a wad over these big bad men coming to rip you off, or you can look at the whole enchilada. Or, you can choose to be willfully ignorant. It's up to you.







On the contrary, I've been saying the same thing the entire time you inane moppet.

SLC, we agree there are many factors. 

The 3 biggest are the following:

World Wide Supply, Demand, and competition of Crude are the biggest factors.  As crude goes up, so does the price of Gasoline.  Remember, since we are dealing with a cartel, supply and demand are not always accuratley reflected.  Also speculators driving up the price of crude is also a factor as of late.  Bush would be a "small" factor.   

Middle East tensions:

"if Iran continues with its program for developing nuclear weapons, we will attack it. The sanctions are ineffective. Attacking Iran, in order to stop its nuclear plans, will be unavoidable." - Israeli Transport minister, last Friday.

Dollar vs Euro:

(http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.png)

They should wait till after Israel bombs Iran to raise prices.  They have been doing this shit for a while.  Just like they do with hurrican season, then no hurrican comes.    The dollar is coming back.   its value is increasing (even if a small amount) yet the price still going up.  Must not have THAT huge of an impact.

The dollar may fluctuate in currency markets, but as long as we have a trade deficit in the trillions, it's going to take a beating.

agreed.

I don't understand.

In one thread, you bash the working poor, yet here, you come off like a whiny bitch over gas prices.

Why not take some of your own advise,  work harder, maybe go back to school, and quit looking for a fucking handout.

Demanding money the government steals from you is not looking for a handout. They're the ones wanting and receiving handouts.

I think it doesn't count if it's in a different thread.

Collusion and Monopolies are wrong, just like being a lazy fuck is wrong too.

This is one bill I side with the Dems on....

Democrats' Oil Windfall Tax Plan Fails in Senate Vote

Tuesday, June 10, 2008



WASHINGTON  ?  Senate Democrats failed to gain enough votes on an energy bill that would have imposed higher taxes on oil companies, which are making record profits as oil and gasoline costs continue surging higher.

Republicans led a charge against the tax, saying it would tinker with the market and lead to suppressed oil supplies at home, and wouldn't bring in the money as planned.

The bill, which needed to pass the preliminary vote by a margin of 60 or better, failed 51-43.


The bill also would have rescinded $17 billion in tax breaks the companies expect to enjoy over the next decade.

"The oil companies need to know that there is a limit on how much profit they can take in this economy," said Sen. Richard Durbin of Illinois, the Senate's No. 2 Democrat, warning that if energy prices are not reined in "we're going to find ourselves in a deep recession."

The five largest U.S. oil companies earned $36 billion during the first three months of the year.

Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., without the 60 votes he needed, switched his vote to "nay," so he could bring up the bill later. But the bill is essentially dead for now.

Only last week, Reid was forced to withdraw a measure aimed at addressing global warming, falling short of the 60 votes needed to advance that legislation.

The Democrats' energy package also would have:

? Made oil and gas price gouging a federal crime, with stiff penalties of up to $5 million during a presidentially declared energy emergency.

? Authorized the Justice Department to bring charges of price fixing against countries that belong to the OPEC oil cartel.

? Required traders to put up more collateral in the energy futures markets to curb speculation.

Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky has acknowledged that Americans are hurting from the high energy costs but strongly opposes the Democrats' response and has ridiculed those who "think we can tax our way out of this problem."

Oil executives, testifying before Congress last month, called the proposed taxes "punitive" and warned that they would discourage domestic oil and gas exploration and production, possibly causing prices to rise instead of fall.

The American Petroleum Institute, which represents the major oil companies, has been reminding lawmakers that in the early 1980s, when the government imposed windfall profits taxes on oil companies, domestic oil production dropped and imports increased.

But Democrats rejected the comparison.

The Senate proposal would impose a 25 percent tax on profits over what would be determined "reasonable" and would allow oil companies to avoid paying the tax if they invest the money in alternative energy projects or refinery expansion.

The tax breaks that would be rescinded, given by Congress over the past five years, are expected to save the five largest oil companies about $17 billion over the next 10 years. The Democratic proposal would funnel the money into tax incentives for renewable energy sources such as wind and solar, and for programs promoting energy efficiency and conservation.

Most Senate Republicans have a different approach to dealing with the growing energy crisis ? pump more oil and gas.

The GOP energy plan, rejected by the Senate last month, calls for opening a coastal strip of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska to oil development and to allow states to opt out of the national moratorium that has been in effect for a quarter century against oil and gas drilling in more than 80 percent of the country's coastal waters.

"Republicans by and large believe that the solution to this problem, in part, is to increase domestic production," said McConnell.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,364846,00.html

NEW YORK (AP) -- Oil prices fell Tuesday, giving up an earlier advance as the dollar held its gains against the euro and the Energy Department slashed its oil consumption projections. Retail gasoline prices rose to a new record over $4.04 a gallon.

The dollar rose on recent supportive comments by U.S. officials, prompting selling by investors who had bought commodities such as oil as a hedge against inflation. Also, a stronger dollar makes oil more expensive to investors overseas.

The Energy Department, in a monthly report, indicated that high prices are cutting oil consumption more than expected in the industrialized world. Consumption is now expected to fall by 240,000 barrels a day in 2008; last month, the department forecast consumption would be unchanged from 2007 levels.

That report calmed a market that earlier sent oil up more than $3 on a projection by the International Energy Agency that said global demand will continue to rise, especially in China.

Light, sweet crude for July delivery fell $2.55 to $131.80 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Reports that Saudi Arabia has increased oil output by 500,000 barrels a day this quarter, 200,000 barrels a day more than previously thought, added some pressure to the market. Still, analysts said the Saudi move was only a peripheral factor in Tuesday's price drop.

"A couple hundred thousand barrels just isn't enough," said Jim Ritterbusch, president of energy consultancy Ritterbusch and Associates in Galena, Ill. "The main item here today is the dollar strengthening."

"The dollar is the supreme driver here," said Phil Flynn, an analyst at Alaron Trading Corp. in Chicago.

Linda Rafield, senior oil analyst at Platts, the energy research arm of McGraw-Hill Cos., said the Saudi news didn't surprise the market.

Meanwhile, the IEA, in its own monthly report, cut its demand growth forecasts, projecting that global demand for petroleum products such as gasoline, diesel and heating oil will grow by 0.9 percent, or 800,000 barrels a day, in 2008. That's down from the 1.2 percent, or 1 million barrels, the IEA forecast earlier this year.

However, the IEA, an energy adviser to Western industrialized nations, also said demand for fuel for reconstruction work in the aftermath of May's earthquake will boost Chinese oil demand by 5.5 percent this year, a slightly higher forecast than in previous reports.

"A 5.5 percent increase in one of the largest consumers of oil in the world is a lot of barrels of oil," Ritterbusch said.

But the gains were difficult to sustain in the face of a stronger dollar, analysts said.

"You don't get a lot of ... additional buying when the dollar is strong," Ritterbusch said.

Gas prices, meanwhile, advanced another 2 cents into record territory Tuesday, reaching a new record national average of $4.043, according to a survey of stations by AAA and the Oil Price Information Service. Gas prices are following crude futures higher, and aren't likely to stop rising until crude prices peak.

"When crude tops out, we'll finally start getting some relief at the pump," Ritterbusch said.

In other Nymex trading, July gasoline futures fell 5.71 cents to $3.3369 a gallon, and July heating oil futures fell 4.57 cents to $3.8313 a gallon. July natural gas futures fell 15.9 cents to $12.445 per 1,000 cubic feet.

In London, July Brent crude fell $2.68 to $131.24 on the ICE Futures exchange.

(http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/9972/yoursignfd6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Guess Iraq wasn't about oil, huh?

You guess wrong.

Your answer to that, is written on the gas pump, chump.

Record gas prices are not attributed to Iraq.

This graph shows how various car models are faring on MPG/price/sales: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-060708-fi-garage-g,0,4206852.graphic (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-060708-fi-garage-g,0,4206852.graphic)

Other than the Prius, it seems like the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic are still the best of both worlds (MPG and price).


And as for the record profits that oil companies are making, you'd think they could at least share a smidgeon of it with gas station owners.

"Gas station operators say the squeeze began years ago, as oil companies siphoned off more of the profits, took a cut of in-store sales and left owners to grapple with higher rents and equipment mandates."

from http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gas10-2008jun10,0,5035682.story (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gas10-2008jun10,0,5035682.story)

Yes, and Al Queda was in cahoots with Saddam chump.

(http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/zFacts-Gasoline-Price.png)

Notice a common factor in gas price spikes?

http://counterpunch.com/nader05282008.html

What's Really Driving the High Price of Oil?

By RALPH NADER

What factors are causing the zooming price of crude oil, gasoline and heating products? What is going to be done about it?

Don?t rely on the White House?with Bush and Cheney marinated in oil?or the Congress?which has hearings that grill oil executives who know that nothing is going to happen on Capitol Hill either.

Last week the price of crude oil reached about $130 a barrel after spiking to $140 briefly. The immediate cause? Guesses by oil man T. Boone Pickens and Goldman Sachs that the price could go to $150 and $200 a barrel respectivly in the near future. They were referring to what can be called the hoopla pricing party on the New York Mercantile Exchange. (NYMEX)

Meanwhile, consumers, workers and small businesses are suffering with the price of gasoline at $4 a gallon and diesel at $4.50 a gallon. Suffering but not protesting, except for a few demonstrations by independent truckers.

A consumer and small business revolt could be politically powerful. But what would they revolt to achieve? Their government is paralyzed and is unable to indicate any action if oil goes up to $200 or $400 a barrel. Washington, D.C. is leaving people defenseless and drawing no marker for when it will take action.

Oil was at $50 a barrel in January 2007, then $75 a barrel in August 2007. Now at $130 or so a barrel, it is clear that oil pricing is speculative activity, having very little to do with physical supply and demand. An essential product?petroleum?is set by speculators operating on rumor, greed, and fear of wild predictions.

Over the time since early 2007, U.S. demand for petroleum has fallen by 1 percent and world demand has risen by 1.3 percent. Supplies of crude are so plentiful, according to the Wall Street Journal, ?traders of physical crude oil say their market is suffering from too much supply, not too little.?

Iran, for instance, is storing 25 million barrels of heavy, sour crude oil because, in the words of Hossein Kazempour Ardebili, Iran?s oil governor, ?there are simply no buyers because the market has more than enough oil.?

Mike Wittner, head of oil research at Societe Generale in London agrees. ?There?s various signals out there saying for right now, the markets are well supplied with crude.?

Historically, oil has been afflicted with the control of monopolists. From the late nineteenth century days of John D. Rockefeller, and his Standard Oil monopoly, to the emergence of the ?Seven Sisters? oligopoly, made up of Standard Oil, Shell, BP, Texaco, Mobil, Gulf and Socal, to the rise of OPEC representing the major producing countries, the ?free market? price of oil has been a mirage. Despite the breakup of the Standard Oil company by the government?s trustbusters about 100 years ago, selling cartels and buying oligopolies kept reasserting themselves.

In an ironic twist, the major price determinant has moved from OPEC (having only 40% of the world production) and the oil companies to the speculators in the commodities markets. What goes on in the essentially unregulated New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX)?without Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) enforced margin requirements, and, unlike your personal purchases, untaxed?is now the place that leads to your skyrocketing gasoline bills. OPEC and the Big Oil companies reap the benefits and say that it?s not their doing, but that of the speculators. Gives new meaning to ?passing the buck.?

Deborah Fineman, president of Mitchell Supreme Fuel Co. in Orange, New Jersey, summed up the scene: ?Energy markets have been dictated for too long by hedge funds and speculators, who artificially manipulate the numbers for their own benefit. The current market isn?t based on the sound principles of supply and demand but it is being rigged by companies and speculators who are jacking up prices for their own greed.?

Harry C. Johnson, former banker who worked for many years inside Big Oil and ran his own small oil company in Oklahoma, blames the CFTC, the Department of Energy, the Administration, and Congress, as ?asleep at the switch on an issue that is probably costing U.S. consumers $1 billion per day.?

He cites ?some industry experts, who profit greatly from the high price of crude, and have stated openly that the worldwide economic price of crude, absent speculators, would be around $50 to $60 per barrel.

Imagine, our government is letting your price for gasoline and home heating oil be determined by a gambling casino on Wall Street called NYMEX. The people need regulatory protection from speculators and an excess profits tax on Big Oil.

In addition, a sane government would see the present price crises as an opportunity to expand our passenger and freight railroad capacity and technology.

A sane government would drop all subsidies and tax loopholes for Big Oil?s huge profits and other fossil fuels and promote a national mission to solarize our economy to achieve major savings from energy conservation technology, retrofitting buildings, and upgrading efficiency standards for motor vehicles, home appliances, industrial engines and electric generating plants.

Those are the permanent ways to achieve energy independence, reduce our trade deficit, create good jobs that can?t be exported and protect the environmental health of people and nature.

Those are the reforms and advances that a muscular consumer, worker and small business revolt can focus on in the coming weeks.

What say you, America?

That damn Corvair. Everything went downhill after that...... :hihi:

Supply report down, dollar down...138.

Dow gettin' killed man, shit.

Today, so far, it's given back most of those gains and is down near 132, which is still nuts.

I'm hoping that the volitility means that we've topped out on the "bubble" and it will start to retreat down some.  But that is probably just wishful thinking on my (and my wallet's) part.

I do have to say, I find it amusing that...the day of, and after, a good sized spike in oil prices...the prices at the pump jump pretty quick.

When that same price of oil drops.....the numbers at the pump take a bit longer to drop.

I've heard the reasoning, but wonder why it doesn't work both ways for the oil companies.

Funny it does not work both ways.

Some have said  ( I don't recall the source) that Oil will top out around $4.15 a gallon this summer and hold steady thru the fall. When demand decreases ( it has started already), things will correct itself and we may see oil back to about $100 per barrel in 2009.

Of course these projections are all over the map depending on what the source is, but at least we have a projection where oil does go down.

Waiting for that plug - in electric pick up truck to hit the market.......

Pilferk, the worst part is the gas in the tank was made 18 months ago.  Bastards!!!

That is what is the most annoying part of it all - how it is priced.

Notice we never hear from any speculators on any of the news shows? I'd love to see a gutsy interview with one of them. Put one on the O'Reilly Factor!

.....and, has now given most of that back due to the Nigerian govt announcing they're going to be taking control over oil production in certain areas from Royal Dutch Shell.  Supply concerns, apparently.

 ::)

And THIS is the problem when speculation starts driving commodities like it is.   Any little blip either sends the price plummetting, or going through the roof.  It's just SOOO fickle......

A wise ass answer does not make you correct.

Here is a copy of an e-mail i recieved that some may find helpful:

What you can do.
 
Gasoline.  Use only Unleaded Regular gasoline with a maximum octane level of 87.  Shop around for the best gasoline prices.  Use www.gasbuddy.com or http://autos.msn.com/everyday/gasstations.aspx?zip=&src=Netx to help with your search before you hit the road in the morning.
 
Drive Sensibly.  Aggressive driving (speeding, rapid acceleration and braking) wastes gas.  It can lower your gas mileage by 33 percent at highway speeds and by 5 percent around town. 
 
Observe the Speed Limit.  As a rule of thumb, you can assume that each 5 mph you drive over 60 mph is like paying an additional $0.20 per gallon for gas.
 
Remove Excess Weight.  Avoid keeping unnecessary items in your vehicle, especially heavy ones.  An extra 100 pounds in your vehicle could reduce your MPG by up to 2% or the equivalent of $.08 per gallon.
 
Avoid Excess Idling.  Idling gets 0 miles per gallon.
 
Keep Your Vehicle Maintained.  Keeping your vehicle properly maintained following the prescribed ARI maintenance schedule can improve fuel economy 4 to 10% or the equivalent of $.16 to $.40 per gallon.
 
Keep Tires Properly Inflated.  You can improve your gas mileage by around 3.3% or $.14 per gallon by keeping your tires inflated to the proper pressure.
 
 
Consumer Reports Debunks Some Fuel-Saving Myths
 
YONKERS, N.Y. --- In its June issue, Consumer Reports debunks some fuel-saving myths after testing them in the real world.
Morning fill-ups. A common tip is to buy gasoline in the morning, when the air is cool, rather than in the heat of the day. The theory is that the cooler gasoline will be denser, so you will get more for your money. But the temperature of the gasoline coming out of the fuel nozzle changes very little, if at all, during any 24-hour stretch. Any extra gas you get will be negligible, Consumer Reports said.
Air conditioning vs. opening windows. Some people advise you not to run the air conditioner because it puts more of a load on the engine, which can decrease fuel economy. But others say that opening the windows at highway speeds can affect gas mileage even more by disrupting the vehicle's aerodynamics. Consumer Reports' tests showed that neither makes enough of a difference to worry about.
Using air conditioning while driving at 65 mph reduced a Camry's gas mileage by about 1 mpg. The effect of opening the windows at 65 mph was not even measurable.