Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Just saw this on vh1 website

Link: http://m.vh1.com/music/tuner/2015-03-26/guns-n-roses-slash-axl-rose-feud-michael-jackson/

Anyone know something about this?
This is first time I'm hearing it!

First time any of us are hearing it, I assume.  It just seems so random.

He is saying this went down in 1991.  So you are telling me Axl held his tongue for 5 more years before finally not being able to take it anymore?  AXL???

I don't see it.

Axl also listed MJ as one of his favorite singers just last year:

http://radio.com/2014/05/29/axl-rose-responds-to-being-named-the-worlds-greatest-singer/ (http://radio.com/2014/05/29/axl-rose-responds-to-being-named-the-worlds-greatest-singer/)

Seems highly unlikely that this is the reason.

Axl named Michael Jackson as one of the vocalist he admires last year. If the reason of the feud with Slash really was MJ, then the problem seems to be solved now.  :hihi:

I was thinking of posting this link to a thread...and then....decided I don't buy it. So...

I do kinda remember a quote from Axl where he kinda made light of Slash going off and playing with him... I think.

But I think thats probably number 37 on the list of grievances he has with the man.

Yeah, I think he once mentioned that he thought Slash wasted his talent playing with the likes of Michael Jackson.

It was more in the lane of Slash playing pop music I think, nothing indicated that he had anything against MJ as a person. Axl was very outspoken in that time period, if he had any opinions on the charges against MJ I think he would have gone public with them in a heartbeat. I can't remember him doing that.

Yep, it's in Axl's interview with Rolling Stone, published on February 3, 2000.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/axl-speaks-20000203 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/axl-speaks-20000203)

Even when it came to picking tracks for the recent Live Era '87-'93 retrospective, Rose and Slash ? whom Rose describes as "negatively seductive" ? communicated their song selections only through intermediaries. "I never said that I was bitter," Rose explains, characteristically concerned with making fine distinctions. "Hurt, yeah. Disappointed. I mean, with Slash, I remember crying about all kinds of things in my life, but I had never felt hot, burning tears ? hot, burning tears of anger. Basically, to me, it was because I am watching this guy and I don't understand it. Playing with everyone from Space Ghost to Michael Jackson. I don't get it. I wanted the world to love and respect him. I just watched him throw it away."

I like how Doug tosses in there that, if there is ever a reunion, he would be the only possible person that could handle it.

What a sport.

Yeah...that's not self serving, eh?

I mean...has ANYONE heard ANYTHING from Mr. Goldstein in a dogs age or two?  No?

And now.....suddenly...from out of nowhere.....he has something new to say about Guns n Roses, and offers his managerial services, to boot, to "heal the wounds".

C'mon.  I was born. And there was a yesterday (just ask Axl). But I wasn't born yesterday.

Don't believe everything you read.

Once again, the headlines are more interesting than the truth. I'm assuming most people here are aware of the things that happened in the band and they got nothing to do with Michael Jackson.





/jarmo

Yeah, I think this one gets filed firmly under the heading "urban legend".

Someone send this on to snopes.com.  :hihi:

I don't think anyone really believes this, but that hardly means we know why Axl hates Slash.

Kind of hard when all he gives you is "oh, he knows what he did!" type stuff.

I noticed that too.  Evidently, ol' Doug hasn't read the books written by Slash, Duff, or Steven to see how the rest of the band feels about his ability to keep the band together.


Agreed.  Even with the Axl quote that I cited above, I still highly doubt that is what has divided Slash and Axl so harshly for the last 20 years.

Agreed.  If this was really the deal breaker, as Mr. D-X said, he wouldn't have waited five years to act on it.  No way.

Ali

Doug Goldstein
33 mins ?
Didn't realize this would show up here but glad it has.SO MANY lies and hostility amongst what was once a "Family" that I loved dearly!! I can only hope that people can put away all the anger and blame and get back to being the GREATEST ROCK BAND OF ALL TIME!!! When I said I believed I was the best candidate to reunite them, it's the truth as id be the ONLY person that ever just LOVED them and never counted the silly dollars. All those who have tried have failed because they are too greedy and Axl can smell that a mile away.


So Doug's desire to manage a line-up from old Guns is motivated by 'love' and not what it would do for him in terms of profile, legacy, personal wealth and the future well-being of his family.

Right...  :hihi:

"https://twitter.com/gunsnrosesnews/status/581218004635131904"]

Wow, Doug is such a trooper.

He really doesn't even want to do this, but just feels an obligation. 

Probably waives his fee, the hero.

Jackson doesn't get enough credit for being a pretty good rock singer

Songs like dirty Diana and give in to me (With slash) are great

Lifelong MJ fan here.  And yeah, 'Give In To Me' is a good jam.

Jackson is a pedophile.

Not in the present tense  :nervous:

I guess not  :hihi:

Its amazing what rich black folk get away with (MJ, OJ, Cosby) while poor folk be getting abused by cops.  Goes to show, it don't matter what color you are, it only matters how much money you got.  Sorry, realize this is way off topic!

EVH didn't play for 1 million dollars in Beat It. He played for free. And MJ was accused in 1993, not 1991.

Whole hell of a lot of troubling stuff on that front.

Very hard for a lifelong fan to deal with.

Too much smoke...

I like the songs too... but I had stopped supporting him in any way a long time ago.

Doug Goldstein is obviously delusional... there is only one person on the face of the earth who could mend these fences... and his name is Axl.

I would also imagine that Slash wants nothing to do with Goldstein as well considering how things went down.

As always, other artist discussions have their own section. Thanks.  : ok:


Anyway, which makes a batter headline: "Disagreements about many things lead band members to go separate ways" or "Troubled superstar X is to blame for break up of band Z and its members A & B"....






/jarmo

I was surprised this lasted in this section as long as it had... no issue by me...

Obviously the whole story is a cheap headline grab.

Agreed all around.

And yeah, I doubt Slash is all that high on Doug.  I'm sure he read this with eyes rolling like the rest of us.

The Jackson angle is new.  That's why its a headline.  Its likely ridiculous, as we all have said, but that's why it news.

"Axl Rose Still Mad At Slash Over...Something, Apparently" is not much of a headline because its not exactly a new story.

A person who is loyal and honest is lied about in order to make the other person look good. That's nothing, playing with Michael Jackson is way more important.....  :rofl:




/jarmo

I'm still curious about what Axl wants Slash to apologize to.

You, and the rest of the planet.  I imagine we will all go to our graves without an answer.

I have never heard a legitimate reason given yet. Axl's hatred seems disproportionate somehow.

Wait, being lied about and made the "bad guy" who's solely responsible for the break up of the old band isn't a legitimate reason?

You don't think Axl has any reasons for his feelings because you think it's all his fault. Simple.




/jarmo

How is Slash 'solely responsible for the break up' when Axl created a legal power grab and now owns the name, today?

'Lied about'?. Well Axl has claimed there have been lies by Slash - certainly. This is all to do with, whether you believe Axl Rose (or not). I don't.

I don't think Axl wants Slash to apologize. Didn't Slash go to his house to apologize? I think Axl is just smart and when he's burned/hurt by someone and loses trust, that's it. No point in working with or trusting that person again. What the reason is, we all have our theories, and like someone pointed out, it all depends on who you believe. Me personally, some nobody, I believe Axl Rose. Too many people have talked about how Axl is truthful, straight shooter, and all that jazz. Whereas Slash has been caught in at least one lie that I can think of, but I thought there may have more. But hey, it's cool to villianize Axl Rose, it's all we heard about for almost two decades. All he needs to do now is curl his mustache so he has the stereotypical bad guy mustache and bring back that evil laugh in Better and all is good in the world!

Don't think Axl is a liar at all... Although, very naive to think making Slash and Duff employees in his version of GNR was a good idea... It was the worst idea of all time. Good idea financially.... BAD idea if he wanted them to continue... which he has stated that he did want.

No, I said lied to make it seem like Axl is to blame.

How would you feel if one of your co-workers told everybody around you all kinds of stories about you that aren't true. You'd be ecstatic?



Surprise!

Yet another reason why I don't get your existence here.




/jarmo

Well see Slash's side of things for a change. How would you like it if you as a band member are suddenly forced to write and play with a guy, with whom you had no hand in his selection, and who you don't particularly credit musically nor like personally? This is what  happened with Slash with Tobias. How would you feel if you keep showing up to sessions but the lead singer, who is leading the musical direction of the sessions, does not show and you are left sitting with a load of unused expensive equipment twiddling your thumbs?

1) Haven't we seen enough evidence to at least QUESTION (based on timings, etc) whether there really was some sort of legal power grab?  We know he has the name.  At this point, I think it's tough to assume why/how that came about.

2) The truth may lay somewhere in the middle, but there's enough evidence out there to say that Slash HAS either lied, or been so wildly mistaken that one might think he's lied.  I don't think Axl's a choir boy in all this, by any stretch.  But nor do I think Slash is.....

There definitely was a legal grab of the name by Axl...obviously.. which I contend was the end of that version of the band ... the nail in the coffin.

How it was presented to Slash... Slash seems to be definitely mistaken about. Same goes for Duff... but Duff is forgiven ... Slash...not so much. Hard to understand unless you are in those shoes. 

The truth is always somewhere in the middle, but I think it's just very clear that things were communicated to Slash and  Duff in a way that made Axl look like the heavy... when it didn't have to be that way.

Let's just blame it on the king of pop... he can't dispute it.

Yep.  And I actually think there even less chance we ever find out as time wears on.

The longer this goes, the more you have to think he must have committed one capital motherfucking offense.  To justify this white hot hate YEARS later?  Must have been bad.

But what if its not?  What if, after a certain amount of time, you reach a point of diminishing returns?  What if there is a good chance if Axl finally said "OK, you really want to know?  Here it is..." and what follows is something that draws reactions of "Jesus Christ, are you kidding me?  All this time?  And THAT is the reason, you talk the way you do?"

Think about it.  Axl spoke in those chats and the time after in some pretty strong terms.  The guy is a cancer.  One of us will be dead in a box before we speak again.  To still be talking in those emotional terms over 10 years later?  Well, must have been bad, right?

But what if its not?  Then what is in it for you to lay all your cards on the table?  Axl has built this up to the point with his venom and rhetoric that Slash will pretty much have had to have killed someone to justify it all.

Also don't discount the second he comes out with it, it can be refuted.  Hard to refute what you can't verify.

I'm so surprised you'd start spinning and excusing the behavior.

They were forced to play with Paul? Well, do you remember anybody else being an option? No.
Funny how you fail to mention the Snakepit songs that Slash wanted Axl to sing on and to be the next GN'R album. How come?
 
Yeah, maybe you're not interested in trying to write without the singer present if your idea of the next album is your songs only. That's it.


You seem to have forgotten all the possibilities here. But you're quick to think of them regarding AC/DC. Amazing!


And yet you failed to answer the age old question. You don't think it's a legitimate reason to not be friendly about a guy who spent years telling stories to the press that are simply not true.



I see the wrestling fan / Bon Jovi fan doing his old dance again: Blah blah blah This is how it is blah blah blah I don't need to read what you say blah blah blah I'm right. Look at me! Blah blah blah.





/jarmo

Marc Canter claimed in an interview that Axl was pissed and hurt at Slash's story that Axl "held a crowd hostage" to finagle the GNR name over to him is the biggest reason.  Canter stated that if Slash had apologized and set the record straight, then Axl would've let Slash play on three Chinese Democracy songs (which apparently never got recorded).

Those are just Canter's words, but it may be the closest thing to an answer we'll ever have.

Well, we don't know if that's the reason.  You are guessing just like the rest of us.

And there is "not being friendly" and then there is "the guy is a cancer best removed and if he ever tried to ambush me to talk it would not be good".

Yeah, who the fuck knows.  I know that tends to be one of the stronger theories.  Could be it.

Of course Axl was so mad, so incensed, so over the top furious after hearing that he...that he...that he let that hang out there for 4 full years before vaguely addressing some sort of problem with the guy in an unannounced internet chat with some fans.

Good luck unringing that bell.
 
That's the part I find silly about all of this.  If Slash lied, that's wrong, no question about it.  But you address it, if you are allegedly so upset over it.  You let it go unchallenged for 4 solid years because you can't be bothered to correct the record?  Hard to summon up a lot of pity for you, I think.

It's baffling how the self appointed free thinkers and people with open yes can't seem to fucking put one and one together.

If it's relating to Axl, it's impossible.

If it relates to something else, they're quick to be able to make up reasons and excuses.





/jarmo

Well, it lasted longer in the big room than most of us figured it would, I suppose.

Still interested in talking about it, anyone that's interested.

Seems like the media is all over this GNR/Michael Jackson story..

Oh, well.

I don't know how legit this is but apparently  Doug Goldstein says that Slash and Axl's rift began back when Slash agreed to  play with Michael Jackson. It was around the time Michael Jackson was going through that scandal the first one. They go on to say that Axl believed the rumors to be true about Michael Jackson and was upset with Slash because we all know Axl said he was abused when he was a child. The interview is at the telegraph.com

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=66215.0

In the 2000 interview Axl makes it sound like he was upset over throwaway solos, not the accusations against MJ. Doug Goldstein is seen as a credible insider by the fans because of how many years he managed GNR.

Slash hinted that he did something to Axl in the late 90s (probably 1999) when he found out Axl was putting a new lineup together. When they were putting together the live album, Axl was also working with the new band and made the controversial AFD demo. That's also the year Axl put "Oh My God" out and did the Kurt Loder phone interview. I think Doug was still managing Axl.

Yes Doug managed Guns at least until 2001. He was the one booking the canceled and re-scheduled 2001 European tour.

just found this by accident, first time I've read it :

For the past two decades, many have wondered exactly what precipitated the nasty split between Rose and Slash.
And though Duswalt does not mention the specific incident that caused the chasm between the two, musical
differences and the direction of the band played a part:

Craig Duswalt : ?It was a thing that happened at the end of ['Use Your Illusion']. There were also the
differences in music. Slash wanted to do more hard rock stuff and Axl wanted to do more ballads, rock ballads.
There was that difference, but there was [also] a specific thing that happened that both of them are at odds over.?

But Craig didn't go into more detail about the last sentence there?

Seems like there's some personal stuff going on there.

no...probably didn't want to go to that path, maybe by respect,
don't know the actual relationships he has with Axl & Slash.

Yeah, we'll probably never know the full story behind that.

the answer is in his book (was curious to read it, I'll see what I can find interesting in it, but I suppose I know everything already) :

"I consider the members of Guns N? Roses, and members of the GNR crew, my friends. That means this book will not reveal
any really dark or destructive secrets?and I have hundreds. If you want those stories, you?ll have to get me really drunk.
Unfortunately for you, I don?t drink anymore?partly because of my days on the road with Guns N? Roses."

we'll have to wait his second book, maybe...

This story does not work chronologically, it reeks of cheap sensationalism and attention whore-itis, but it has given the usual idiots here a topic to take shots at GNR.

:Insert Inappropriate emoticon here:.

Probably because the lead singer had unceremoniously sacked the prior incumbent without the rest of the band's consent also!


Axl has already been found out lying here. The lyrics to the Snakepit songs were largely composed by Eric Dover. This was after the demos had been rejected by Axl. A swift reading of the booklet would verify this.


I am under no illusions that Axl was unaware of the sessions happening between Slash, Gilby and Matt, and that Axl would not have had an invite - if he had turned up?. Axl could not even be bothered to turn up for rehearsals for Rio 3!


That is where we differ. I regard most of them as true. I think Axl destroyed the old band.

I most certainly can not find Axl at fault for showing no interest in that material that became the first Snakepit album.

Could you imagine any of that coming out as a Guns N' Roses product?  Come on.  We'd have freaked out.

And for good reason.  That stuff sucked.

There are some good riffs and guitar parts there. Hypothetically, with Axl's input, I could envision a few great GN'R songs emerging from it all.

I?ll take Beggars and Hangers On, over anything on Chinese Democracy, 7 days a week.
Add Axl?s voice/input into the mix, and he takes it to a new level.

I think both Snakepit records are solid, but Slash has a knack for finding singers(outside of Axl & Scott) that I can only listen to in small doses.
I can?t listen to an entire Dover, Jackson, Kennedy album in one sitting, but musically there is some real interesting stuff going on all of those records.

Axl is clearly in another stratosphere talent wise above that crop, and his input would have no doubt elevated the songs.

Plus if we are playing make believe, and talking about a true Guns N? Roses record, Izzy would have been involved in the songwriting process.

The key is in your last point.

If Izz was around to bridge the gap... there is no reason why some of those songs couldn't have turned in to songs some people are voting on every day in that best GNR song poll...

Back to the topic at hand...I've been trying to clarify by re reading some stuff... but can somebody confirm the precise reason Doug was eventually fired?

Did he not get along with Beta? Or is it mostly because of failed touring plans?

Yes, I agree

Something to do with that cancelled 2001 tour that Axl first read about ''on the internet''.

Hahahaha.

I think he was out after that, yes.  Don't think he was around for the 2002 tour.

Gilby is no Izzy. They needed a song writer. Nobody offered any other options except the easiest one.



No, he hasn't. Just because Dover has song writing credits doesn't mean he wrote all the lyrics on all those songs.

Also, why did you ignore the fact that it was Slash's idea for the next GN'R record?
Even Duff agreed with Axl on that one.




That's yet another reason why you should go find another fan site to post on.




Slash thought they were done and recorded them himself. :D






/jarmo

that's the thing I don't understand. everyone knows Izzy was a crucial part of the band.
replacing him was probably the hardest thing the guys had to do.

maybe doing the sympathy cover was a mistake, there were no rush, Gilby didn't fit,
Paul Huge was rejected by the others, they could have taken some time to find the
right guy who would have pleased everyone.

He's got writing credits on several songs on Chinese Democracy that aren't that far off the old band's sound. Street Of Dreams, I.R.S., The Was A Time and Catcher In The Rye.




/jarmo

When one guy says "this is the guy" and the other main members of your band say "over our dead bodies", the answer should then be "well, then we'll have to go in another direction."

Yes, I suppose you could say that another answer would be this guy's champion to tell the others that their opinions didn't matter an if they didn't like it they could leave, but what does that get you?  Gets you what we've had since then.  Hard to call it preferable.  We may all still be rolling with it all, but it ain't our first choice

Kind of have to question Paul's lack of self awareness too.  Are you telling me that at no point did he pull Axl aside and double check this was all still a good idea since it seemed to be causing obvious strife?  Now, maybe he did and Axl assured him it would all work out.  Who knows?  But I'd like to think he at least asked.

I wound up liking Paul's contribution to the album we eventually got 12 years later, but is that the point?  Life is often a cost benefit analysis.  And for as much as I like his contributions, do I like them so much that it was worth all the bullshit?  Nah, not really.

Gilby had written for Candy and Kills for Thrills when he was recruited. His credentials were superior to Tobias, an unknown quantity. And since joining GN'R, Gilby has released five original studio albums. He has actually released more songs than Axl.


He wrote the majority of them. The only one he didn't write was Be the Ball and Gilby's song, Monkey Chow.



Ehh, yes. How else is Slash supposed to provide his ideas for the next Guns album? Or are you wanting to Slash to not provide ideas for a GN'R album, featuring Slash?


Why? I do not have to agree with Axl nor particularly believe the guy in order to listen to his music.

Yeah, easy to come to such conclusions when you don't even try to look at it from any other angle.

Dave Navarro wasn't a good idea, Zakk Wylde wasn't a good idea, Paul wasn't a good idea... All suggestions by Axl.
And the answer was: Gilby?

If you think of yourself as the lead guitar player and the other one is only supposed to just support your role, it's easy to see why none of those other guys was a good idea. It's like the UN where one guy can veto all suggestions just because he can....  :hihi:

Look at the guitar players that's been in his bands since he quit GN'R. Not really anybody who would "challenge" him like somebody such as Zakk would.

Also, Duff didn't quit right there and then.




Nice try, but Paul had already history writing with Axl. Check your Use Your Illusion booklet!
So not unknown at all. :D

Quality over quantity. I would take one album by Izzy over all those Gilby albums....




Stop claiming this as a fact!


There you go, Slash says he wrote lyrics as well. Now what?
Yes, he didn't write all the lyrics, but to claim he had very little to do with them is wrong.




Well, you can write songs and song ideas. You don't need to present a bunch of Southern Rock and claim that's the songs. No work required by the others.








This site isn't for people who love AC/DC with a bias against GN'R. Sorry.





/jarmo

Jarmo, did you ever meet Paul Tobias?

Not that I remember..... 



/jarmo

Oh dear!! He existed as one name underneath one of Illusion's more embarrassing songs. I think he was also credited for Shadow of Your Love, an obscure b-side! The point is that Tobias had never played for a signed band and  recorded/released an album of which, he had written the majority of the songs - until he was hired. To claim that he had worthier songwriting credentials than Gilby is absurd.


Subjective.

But if you must, I prefer Izzy more also. Pawnshop Guitars however is an excellent album and that was released at around the time he was sacked. Seems to be some good ideas on there that Axl could have used.


Dover's name appears on every song except for Monkey Chow, Be the Ball and the instrumental? Just what is he being credited for here, bongo playing?


This is simply Axl's viewpoint. Slash's is, rather, different. 'Southern rock' was a term used by Duff and is a bit disingenuous considering Duff co-wrote one of the songs.


You are quite obsessed with the DC thing, aren't you. You must have missed the bit in which I said 'I am a bigger GN'R fan than a DC fan'.

You make one point, which is wrong. So then you gotta make a new one to try to prove you're right. Funny stuff.
He had a history of writing music that ended up on GN'R releases. Gilby didn't. End of story!

Gilby did a great job touring and recording the cover songs. But songwriting for a band like GN'R maybe wasn't his strong point.






So you're saying Slash lied?  :o
Those are his words from his so called autobiography.

Is it possible that.... You're wrong? :o



Axl's viewpoint and Duff's. Two, at the time, sober people.






Just find it amusing how capable you're of defending AC/DC and yet spend s much time whining about GN'R. Especially Axl.

Funny that.




/jarmo

Tobias has an obscure co-credit, on two obscure GN'R songs. Gilby had written and recorded extensively as part of a signed entity. Also, Gilby was already a member of GN'R publicly. What is the logic of bringing in a new band member, featuring him live, including his face on the photos, in the booklets, etc, if you are only going to fire him because you 'do not rate his songwriting?'. If Gilby was recruited as merely a stand-in, it should have been like a Darryl Jones scenario.

Would it not be logical and fair to at least try and write with him. Axl's firing also caused bad blood with Slash and Duff. Should there not have been some element of, consultation here, on both the Gilby firing and the Tobias hiring.


From that quote, Slash implies there were lyrically some Slash songs and some Eric. Since all of the songwriting credits except for Be the Ball, Gilby's and the instrumental contain Dover's name, that means Eric was also writing on Slash's songs also. Just what is he contributing here, to obtain a songwriting credit? Please tell me? Seeing that Dover wrote the lyrics to the songs Slash says he wrote in your quote, yet also co-wrote the lyrics to Slash's songs, we can assume that Eric wrote a lot of lyrics. Assuming a 50/50 split (and I freely admit, I am assuming a lot here), that would be 75%.

Besides we are splitting hairs here. None of Dover's lyrics existed when the DAT was produced for Axl. Fact. The DAT had 12 songs on it. I think it is fair to say that those 12 correspond with the 12 Slash mentions in your quote. At best, Axl told a half truth, or a half lie.


Here we go again, the old 'sober', 'drug addicts' line. Slash was drinking a bit then but there are enough interviews from that period which shows he was coherent and in control. It is funny but the sobriety issue does not seem to apply to Stinson who is rarely sober!


I do not believe I have ever defended DC here to any great extent. I mean if you want me to defend one of their lousier 1980s albums such as Fly on the Wall, it is not going to happen Jarmo.

Fly on the Wall was actulally not that bad. Really good songs with a wrong production.

Insisting Gilby Clarke wasn't the answer is not really a rousing (or even coherent) defense of how Axl handled trying to bring Paul into the fold.

Can't it be that Gilby wasn't the guy, but Axl's approach and bringing Paul into the band was pretty clumsily handled and caused more problems than anything Paul might bring to the table could ever possibly offset?

Does erasing Slash's rhythm track and putting Paul on there without telling anyone actually a cool move...because, hey, Gilby wasn't a fit.  What does one have to do with the other?

Yes, I blame the production more. It is probably one of their weaker albums though, that and Blow up your video. I think Flick of the Switch is underrated.

And ironically he then 'left' the band for 'not liking the touring thing' (Axl). After all that! Axl could have just kept Tobias as a background songwriter, someone to write with before bringing his ideas into Guns. Crisis averted.

For once you actually have a point...all the bullshit with this guy Paul ..Slash Duff and Matt all can't stand him...



And then he walks away after what ? Three bleepin shows....


Fucking izzy.....

That's the thing.

It wasn't a personality confilct with one other guy.  It was the entire rest of the band saying they didn't want him.

So you dig in and insist they all better get the hell onboard because he's the guy?  We often joke that Axl would die on every hill, but over Paul Tobias?  You wind up jettisoning your entire band because you just HAD to have this guy?  Couldn't possibly be anyone else?

Its like mortgaging your future for one player.  If a dude cost you 3 first round picks, he better be a god damn stud.  Paul wound up working on many of the songs I find to be really strong on the album.  But the dude would have had to have been the lovechild of a prime Keith Richards and prime Jimmy Page to justify everything you jettisoned to bring him aboard.

I don't think that Paul was the reason for the split-up. But he was used as a reason. That's it.

I would rather blame Slash because he refused to work with him right from the beginning.

Apparently Slash did work with him. Apparently Tobias even went up to Slash's house and worked with him in his home studio.

I'm not going to claim Slash was super open minded about the guy.  By his own admission, he didn't think much of him.

But could your working relationship with Slash, not to mention your own's band's legacy and general viability, have such little value?

That's what I could never get past.  This wasn't breaking up your marriage for a comparable woman.  This was breaking up your marriage for someone that you got to second base with in high school.

When he was hired, was there a plan to write with him?

You call having song writing credits with GN'R obscure. How many of us had heard of or owned a Candy album or Kill For Thrills before Gilby joined GN'R? Were these bands you listened to?









Hold on. Your claim is that since Dover is credited in most songs, it means Axl lied. I pointed out that Slash says he wrote some of the lyrics.
It doesn't interest me who wrote what and how many percent.

I merely pointed out that you're wrong, again, in your assumption. :)




Or the songs that ended up on Snakepit aren't exactly the same. I find it hard to believe the Gilby track was presented by Slash to Axl as his songs for GN'R.




Well according to Duff he was a drug addict at the time when Duff himself was sober.
Later on, after he quit GN'R, it didn't get better!
 



I want to believe!

I see you offer so much understanding for other bands but not GN'R. Ironic.





It's easier to find a scapegoat than to take any personal responsibility.





/jarmo

The GN'R songwriting method, which tended to be a free for all, predisposes a contribution from the rhythm guitarist. I did feel Gilby was a full time member when I was ten years old. I never considered him a, ''GN'R member but only when playing live'' or some other caveat. But it never happened anyway and Axl sacked the poor guy. 


They were signed bands which featured Gilby, writing and recording. ''Vs a GNR b-side and 1980s cheesy Illusion filler?'' I would call it GN'R but this is not exactly the confidence building argument you want to make.


It should as I used the term 'most' and the main point of the argument seems to rest on whether these lyrics were written by Dover, after Snakepit was formed, after Axl's dismissal of the demos.


There are 14 songs on the finished album, It's Five o clock Somewhere. The twelve Slash/Eric songs, the Gilby song and (perhaps) the instrumental= 14. The maths tally.


Look at the interviews. He is tipsy but fully in control. Why should it matter anyway? Izzy was a full blown smack addict in 1986-7. So was Slash and Steven. Yet the end product was Appetite for Destruction. Stinson is paralytic at every New gnr show yet I do not see you applying a similar critique of 'intoxicated GN'R members' against him when he is performing with new gnr!


You are always going to see these will o' the wisps so long as you believe rock fandom necessitates unilateral unflinching 100% dying support for that said act. You are always going to have this problem Jarmo.

Just one small chime in, and maybe it's because I was older, hanging with an even older crowd...but pretty much all the GnR fans in my "circle" considered Gilby as an Izzy replacement player for the tour.

In fact, it led to a ton of heated discussions as to who was going to ACTUALLY take that spot if Izzy didn't come back...because pretty much everyone viewed (and even called him) a "Gun for Hire".

MATT, on the other hand....I think pretty much everyone assumed was Adler's ACTUAL replacement behind the kit, for good.

It doesn't really matter what you or I thought at the time.
I just don't recall any statements about him being there as a permanent member.



Signed bands versus a person who had already worked with Axl and had song writing credits on GN'R releases.
Besides, Paul was only there until they could find somebody else.




I don't believe it. Look at Slash's quote. The only song he is the sole writer on is Be The Ball. I'm sure he wrote more lyrics than one song.




Still doesn't prove that Axl lied as you put it.
Because you don't know what he wrote!



So you're saying the recollection of somebody under the influence is as good as those who aren't?

I'd say the town drunk might not be the most credible witness of events. That's just common sense.




/jarmo

I was a little young at the time... but looking back I think it was clear even then Matt was always in the long term plan for the band while Gilby was not.

Also never understood why Gilby is considered part of the Illusion "lineup" or "era" when those are ALL Izzy's songs...Gilby had nothing to do with them... he just filled in very admirably during that epic run on the road.

An era in this case is the album cycle.

The tour is part of that cycle. And "TSI?" was recorded during that era, so it makes sense that it's lumped together with it.




/jarmo

Yeah, because Adler was a fuck-up.  You kind of knew he wasn't coming back.

I don't remember any real distinction that Gilby was strictly a hired gun.  But, I can also say I never got any sort of read that people considered him essential personnel either.

Maybe it was the way it all played out, in terms of timings and stuff, IDK.   

Matt seemed to have some more thought and consideration given, and seemed a better "fit" (in terms of credibility, creative ability/history, etc). It wasn't JUST that Adler was a fuck up, and was pretty much assuredly not coming back.

Gilby never felt like the best fit, just the best player/mimic (and that's not meant as a diss....just that he could learn the songs very quickly) they could get on really short notice. The consensus amongst my group of friends was that Gilby was along for the UYI tour, and then a "real" replacement would be found before the next "new material" album was put together. I'm not saying we were right, or that it really matters a ton.  I'm just pointing out that "Gilby is a full fledged, card carying, forever and indespensible member of GnR" wasn't necessarily the universal view amongst the fans.

I don't have anything against the guy...he did the job I think that was intended for him, and did it very well!  I was just never under the impression that the intent was for him to replace Izzy, permanently.  Izzy's contributions were too varied, and much more creative in nature, than anything Gilby had ever done before.  If anything, Gilby was like the ANTI-Izzy....good at the performance side but, at the very least, unproven (and what he had put out wasn't very "GnR" like) creatively (at the time).  Even now, I think his "claim to fame" is much more in relation to his session playing and live playing contributions vs his creative output (and yes, I've heard his solo albums and some of his other, collaborative stuff).

But that's just me.

Edit: I also think it's SLIGHTLY compelling that Gilby was NOT inducted to the R&RHOF along with some of the other membership (but he did play with them). Matt was inducted.  I mean...I know we've debated the whole R&R HOF thing, and I largely fall on the side of it's irrelevance and commercialization (ie: it's meant to make money for folks).  However, in this case I think it's a valid example that at least SOME folks felt/feel largely the same way about Gilby's involvement with GnR.

I saw the difference being that Matt played on all 30 UYI tracks.

I know that he did not write anything, but that is his drumming on those songs.  Dizzy never wrote anything either, but he got in under the same premise.

Gilby can't claim any of that.  Gilby never played on anything that was the basis for their induction.  I think its fair to suggest that even if TSI never even came out, it would not have affected their induction.  They were inducted based on AFD, Lies, and the UYI albums.

I agree, that was part of it (Matt's involvement in UYI).

But that still goes to the point: Gilby seems to have been brought in basically to tour in Izzy's spot, with not much thought to him after that.  He did play on TSI, but (besides being covers)...maybe I'm misremembering here..hadn't Izzy laid those tracks down already, mostly, during the UYI sessions?  Gilby re-recorded them..but they were still basically "replays" of Izzys tracks...IE: session play.

Matt might have laid down the tracks Adler wrote...BUT that was because Adler flat out couldn't play what he'd written (which makes you wonder how he had written them).  I always point to YCBM...that might be Adler's notation, but that's Matt's drumming/personality/embelishments coming through. Ditto on Coma.

He was a 'Guns N' Roses' member. It is that simple. He featured in the official artwork (in TSI booklet and Robert John book), was interviewed on the understanding as being a 'bona fide' member, and was simply assumed to be a member. The public at the time did not spend much time investigating the minutiae of this.


Nothing makes much sense about the Paul Tobias thing.


Probably but Dover is being credited for something here. What is he being credited for here Jarmo?


How many lyrics did Slash write for GN'R? He traditionally does not write lyrics.


Depends on your interpretation of 'under the influence'. People can have a few drinks in them and still recollect things fairly easily. Obviously if you are paralytic, then you will not be able to recollect things.

Still doesn't matter how many photos he was in!
It doesn't prove that he was indeed hired to write songs with the band.



You tell me. You seem to know something the rest of the world doesn't.
Steven Adler got paid for songs he didn't write a note on.





Traditionally? :D
This was a point when he wanted them to do his songs his way.

Slash doesn't traditionally sing, but he did on "TSI?". Go figure.

But even he says he wrote lyrics to those songs..... And here you are trying to say the opposite to prove your point. Your only evidence is the songs' credits.




According to Duff's book, Slash would still do more than drink at his time.




/jarmo

''Gilby Clarke, rhythm guitarist of GN'R (disclaimer: he is not allowed to write our songs)''


But Adler was not given an individual ASCAP songwriting creditation!


For most people, the ASCAP credit would be a fairly crucial bit of evidence. Seemingly not for you though as it makes Axl a liar.


I do not know how you want me to reply here as temperance does not fit well with Guns N' Roses. Appetite, their greatest triumph, for instance was made on a diet of smack and cheap booze. Stinson still today is permanently sozzled.

I do not think that word means what you think it means. ;)

It's evidence he did "something" to those lyrics (or music..though I think it's a safe bet his contribution DID involve lyrics).  He could have taken original lyrics and polished them up enough that Slash thought he deserved a writing credit on them.

Or he could have written the majority of them.

Or he could have wholesale re-written large swaths of lyrics that Slash had already written, using them as a basis.

Or something in between.

Or something different for each song.

The point is: We don't know.  A writing credit isn't broken down into a %, by amount of contribution. It just is.  And it can represent any one of the scenarios, above, or one not detailed at all.

It's all about who the creative entity wants to assign credit, and their own reasoning as to why.  There's no real ASCAP rule...they "obey" the creative entity who submits the paperwork assigning credit.

Edit: Also, though I could be misremembering, I think Slash is listed first on all credits, in the linear notes, except Dime Store (Gilby gets top billing) and Monkey Chow (cause he didn't contribute..it's Gilby's song). In ASCAP..everything is sorted by Alpha...

How many songs did Matt Sorum write for GN'R?





The songs were listed under Guns N' Roses Music and as far as I recall, he got a piece of that pie.





The problem you have is that you can't prove any of this.

You just want it to be true so badly that you'll find any excuse to go on with your theory.





Maybe you could admit that maybe the recollections of that kind of person isn't necessarily as accurate as you wish.



/jarmo

At what time was this true?

He does have individual credits for the Appetite and Lies songs when you search in the database.

I believe ASCAP converted to individual artist number(s) post Adler lawsuit resolution....but the original ASCAP credit (and royalties, which was the stickler) was assigned to "Guns n Roses Music".  Guns n Roses Music was assigned as an administrator, after the lawsuit (and, I think that was the basis of the Slash/Duff "royalty check sent to the wrong address" issue).

I'd have to re-read through the paperwork, again, to be sure, though.  I haven't read it in a LONG time, but that's my memory of it. I could very well be wrong.

Do we have access to any information regarding the publishing etc. from the Appetite days? Could be interesting to look into, just for the fun of it.  :)

Also, GN'R's publishing was through BMI at the time, not ASCAP. Just in case someone wants to look into it.

I meant in the booklet. If you scan your booklet it is 'Guns N' Roses', not ''Rose/Slash/Adler'' (or some other combination).


Hopeless analogy as Sorum was hired when most of the Illusion material was already written. There are no particular reasons why his songwriting would not have made a hypothetical new album around 1996 or 1997. He wrote Set Me Free for VR after all.


But not a name in the booklet!


Sticking strictly to your Slash quotation, we have to assume that these 'Eric' songs had Slash lyrics when they were originally brought in to Axl. To exonerate Axl from lying, we have to manufacture a quite complicated series of assumptions. I don't buy it.

Yup, Gilby's still is (BMI), I think. And it's a good point re: the ASCAP conversion.  It may very well have got "converted" when they moved from BMI to ASCAP, just as a matter of process.

The lawsuit "stuff" is out there, somewhere.  It's been awhile since I went poking around for it (and I'm not sure I have time to do the research, at present).  It gives you a pretty good "at the time" snapshot of their publishing stuff.  Some of it was laid out plainly, some you had to read a little between the lines to figure out.  At least that's how I remember it.

Ditto on the publically available court filings from the Slash/Duff vs Axl royalty lawsuit from about 10 years back.

Thanks! :)

See, neither set of assumptions seems more complex than the other, really

In one, you have Slash bringing "mostly" finished material to Axl, and given the already high tensions, an insistence the material is "take it or leave it".  

In the other, you have Slash bringing mostly finished music, to collaborate with a guy (lyrically) he has no history with, and insisting he write lyrics, on his own, for a project that, really, showcases Slash (and has his name in the top billing position).

It's about perspective.  Axl and Slash's, and who's telling the story.  Personally, I don't think Axl was lying.  I think, likely, there was so much animosity already built up that the creative process led to shouting matches..which lead to Axl believing what he does about Slash not wanting to allow changes to the material.  If all that shit wasn't already there...would there been a more collaborative spirit? Maybe so.  

When it came time for Slash's Snakepit, and Slash had the material mostly ready to go, he likely realized that lyrics aren't his strong point and he sought out someone else who had skills in that area, and asked for help.  Different songs likely had different amounts of changes, polishing, re-working, or complete rebuilding.  Enough that Dover deserved some credit for his skills.  Slash has SAID he wrote lyrics for those songs...his own words.  I don't think he's lying, here, either.

I don't find any of the above, in my scenario, to be complicated or require a need to make large leaps in logic.

YMMV.

Gilby joined in the middle of the tour. Doesn't that tell you something?
What you fail to see is that he was an additional musician. Sorry.





Not a name, but part of the group that's credited to the song writing.





Your assumption is that no lyrics existed. Yet, Slash is the sole writer of one song on that album. Who wrote those lyrics?

I think it's more likely that Dover got credited for certain lyrics, and maybe vocal melodies.





/jarmo

Imagine having to split the loot with Adler.  Wouldn't that just kill you?

Meh, not me.  Not for afd.

But then, its not my 20% of millions, so i can afford to be magnanimous.

If that comment refers to Axl claiming he was forced to share his percentage, of course there is Steven's and Slash's side (told in their books) that Axl basically wanted to discredit Steven and take his share, and that Steven was the one who ended up compromising.

'Additional musician' is just something concocted by the 'Axl camp' to devalue Gilby and Matt's contributions. Either Gilby was a member of GN'R, or Tracy and Roberta. As seen by the merest look at the TSI booklet, he was a GN'R member.



These booklet credits must count for something? They must indicate something?


There were probably no lyrics (on the original DAT). Slash had not formally written GN'R lyrics (unless you include a line in Paradise City). Why would he suddenly start in 1994-5? The notion that he had fixed lyrics set in place, that Axl had to sing, is blatantly absurd. It flies flat in the face of how GN'R had hitherto operated.

He is also an intelligent guy Slash. I am sure he knows Axl's lyrics are going to be better than ''Be the Ball''. Why would Slash cut his nose off to despite his face?

It is additionally not how Slash has operated since. Myles writes the lyrics just as Scott did. So we are expected to believe that in 1994-5 Slash suddenly had the inspiration to become a lyricist, only to put it back in the draw and throw away the key?

He was a "member" as much as Matt Sorum, but not part of the actual band.... He wasn't part of the decision making.

Regarding your song writing thing. Matt Sorum joined, and according to the Famous Last Words with Axl, Matt wrote his own material. But didn't get any song writing credits...
So even though the songs were written, he wrote something. So even with him, they had a history of working on original material with him. With Gilby, not so much.




Sure, that they didn't want to give out specific information until Use Your Illusion I & II when the credits were displayed with each song.





Assumptions by you. Once again, Be The Ball is only credited to him. Who wrote those lyrics since Slash isn't capable?




He's also the guy who did something and then he would say something else to try to save face.

Those other bands were different cases. He needed the singer. Easier to play nice when you need something from somebody else.




/jarmo

He helped create one of the greatest albums of all time, and had a hand in AFD through UYI, so I?d say he earned it.

I think people, myself included, tend to under appreciate the role that the chemistry of the band members plays in the creation of the songs we enjoy.
Even with all the evidence right in front of us.

Those guys on AFD were clearly meant to make music together. The band soldiered on without Adler, and you might even be able to make the case that they got better with Sorum, but we know that Adler?s termination was the beginning of the end of that era. Izzy has said Steven leaving changed things for the worse. The band never recovered creatively when Izzy left, and Slash leaving was just the nail in the coffin.

Technically you can replace any person, but you can?t replace the chemistry/synergy they take with them out the door.
I think as fans we want to believe certain players are replaceable so that bands we enjoy can move forward when someone inevitably leaves, and we justify it with writing credits, who?s vision it was, technical ability, lack thereof,  etc etc, but the proof is in the pudding. Great bands are few and far between, and their parts aren?t interchangeable.

As usual... you nailed it on the head.

Steven didn't write one song... but he helped mold them. He shouldn't be undervalued or shit on for that.

However if he gave drugs to my wife... and almost killed her... I wouldn't want anything to do with him either ... let alone pay him millions of dollars.

ha, yeah I can see where Axl was coming from on that one.

But don't you think you have to see if the product suffers once a person leaves or is replaced?

In other words, if you can say that you think the drumming on UYI is at least as good, if not better than it was on AFD...where's the argument here?  Isn't it a stronger argument if you could say that there was an appreciable drop off in the drumming once Steven left?

Still doesn't make his contributions to AFD less important if the next guy happened to be better or just as good.

Not really, because history is history. None of the above diminishes his contribution AT THE TIME.  It was those 5 guys...whether you replace one of them down the road or not.

The other problem is this: We only know about performance/technical ability.  In that respect, Matt was as good or better than Adler.

What we DON'T know is...creatively...was the entity "stronger" with Matt shaping/writing the percussion parts of new material. 

This is largely a similar argument to the one I make regarding Gilby.  There's not much debate that he was able to play Izzy's parts, live, as well (and at times better) than Izzy was.

But I still say Izzy's loss was the one that pretty much damned that incarnation of the band...because what he brought to the table, his real strength, wasn't quantifiable, necessarily, in a performance or even, necessarily, his recorded parts on an album. I don't think there's ANY argument that he was more valuable than Gilby, regardless of whether the technical playing from Gilby was better on stage.

Now, the difference with Adler is...his sobriety issues were effecting EVERYTHING else in the band, from interpersonal stuff to his ability to play, at all. They literally couldn't function as a unit in the state he was in.  That doesn't, though, reduce the contributions he DID make, up to that point.

Very well said.

Steve gets shit on by just about every faction of GNR fans...

I think it's just more to do with the way he presents himself .. aside from his obvious life long fight... he doesn't come off being very intelligent. he is an easy target... plus he hasn't had much success in music since that time.

Still, his contributions to the beginning of the band and those songs should not be sneezed at. Duff and Izzy have repeatedly said over the years how important he was to the sound. Even Axl stated in one of his interviews that the drumming on Appetite was "perfect".

I think most of it has nothing to do with his musical input while he was in GN'R. It's all the other stuff.

Like some would say, there's a track record to go by. Stuff didn't stop happening because he was fired from GN'R..... Hopefully most of that kind of stuff is in the past by now though.




/jarmo

Yeah I think I pointed out some of the reasons... Just think his importance to Appetite, Lies and whatever he started on illusions get overlooked because of it.

But wouldn't you rank him 5th out of the 5?  And the gap between he and #4 a bigger distance than the gap between anyone else on the list?

That's something different. But, yes of course.

Oh, the way he presents himself is absolutely the reason for fan scorn.

He's just all over the map.  He'll tell you one month that Axl is a fucking asshole and then the next month say he's loves him like a brother.

Remember the public tantrum he threw when Matt played on one of Slash's albums instead of him?  Its not even that he was in the wrong being pissed, but do you do all that publically?

I personally just feel his contributions have been totally overromantacized in hindsight.  What else has he done of note in 25 years time?

At the time he was kicked out, I sure don't remember much consternation over it.  Compared to when Izzy left, which everyone knew was a problem.

And then you get those diehard reunionists that take things to absurd levels.  They are so unhappy with what Axl has done, they not only reject any sort of new band, they start running down the UYI band as "not Guns N' Roses".  They are like political voters with purity tests.  To them, the "real Guns N' Roses" only did one album and a EP.

I just find that silly.

But he got docked 5% so Adler's contribution did reflect itself in the money he was receiving. I think it went

1/ Axl (25%)
2/3/4/ Izzy, Slash, Duff (20% each)
5/ Adler (15%)

This makes no sense whatsoever. A 'member' of what if not the 'actual band'? It is wooly headed Axl logic.


If Gilby, Slash and Matt were demoing material for an upcoming GN'R album this presupposes that Gilby was admitted to the creative process, at least by Slash and Matt. He even obtained songwriting credits on It's five o' clock,


It is reasonable to assume that Clarke's contributions happened when this material was intended for GN'R and not Snakepit, that is before Axl had rejected the demos.

You are also leaving out the fact that Slash, Duff and Matt disagreed with Gilby's sacking. Presumably they never grasped the mysterious distinction between being a 'member' but not a 'band member'.

No, and I wouldn't rank them at all.  They were the right five guys thrown into the mixing pot who each brought the right elements to the fray, and elicited the right result out of each other.

All five original members were incredibly important to the songwriting due to the chemistry they had and the influence they had on each other.  Slash stated pretty strongly in his book that the public was unaware how critically important Steven's influence was to the overall musicianship of the band.  Izzy made a rather well-known statement in 1992 (quoted in "Guitar World") that Steven's drumming "made the band" and that "Afterwards, nothing worked."  Duff also mentioned in his book how difficult it was to replace Steven, and at one point mentioned being disoriented on stage because Steven wasn't there.

Basically, all of this means that Steven not only shaped and molded how the songs were written, but also how the band members composed different parts.  That's equally important to sitting down and writing a lyric and playing a guitar riff, especially if the influence in constant.  For example, given what the other guys said, I'm sure there were plenty of times where Slash or Izzy started bending a riff differently because they were listening to what Steven was doing groove-wise..... which may in turn have influenced the way Axl sang a vocal melody.  Stuff like that.

As for Matt Sorum, just because he sat in the drum seat and played Steven's parts doesn't mean he's Steven's equal.  Sure, Sorum was a competent drummer, but that doesn't mean he meant as much to GNR in the way of chemistry and influence over the way the other four members thought and composed music.  By all accounts, Matt just learned the songs and played Steven's parts.

It makes no sense for people who have this naive mentality about what a band really is.

Was Gilby in the band? Yes.
Was he a legal partner of the band? No.
Did he have any say in the band's decisions? Not really.





Sure. His song writing was good enough for Snakepit. That doesn't really say a lot. Sorry.






Assuming he co-wrote those songs and Axl rejected them, more proof that his songwriting wasn't up to the GN'R standard then....





Of course they did. Which is easier: To keep the guy even though he's not good enough to write, but things are kinda comfortable or get somebody new that could be a better song writer?




/jarmo

Neither was Matt either who you have cited (neither for that matter was Dizzy.) yet you have made the argument that Matt was somehow, more the band member than Gilby! Legally Matt had the same relationship to GN'R as Dizzy and Gilby.


Not 'for Snakepit', for Guns. The demos were original conceived for Guns N' Roses. Snakepit only appeared once they had been rejected. Around January 1994 Slash, Matt and Gilby created a series of demos for the next Guns album. This is simply fact.


You are basically appointing Axl sole arbitrator on what constitutes 'GN'R' here (which of course is a view you hold anyway). The fact of the matter is, Gilby being admitted to the January 1994 demos is proof that Slash saw some sort of songwriting role for Gilby.


Subjective. Irrelevant.

True. In the business sense.
But you're the one who started crying about how Gilby was a band member and how important he was to you at the time.

I pointed out that he was a touring musician. Who had recorded with other bands before, and has continued recording solo after GN'R.





If they were rejected for inclusion on the next GN'R album, and they were instead released under another band name, they obviously weren't up to the GN'R standard.
This is common sense.







Duh!

Of course Slash wanted to continue working with Gilby. That was his idea!
The only idea.










Why not answer the question?

Slash just wasn't into the idea of working too hard on things.





/jarmo

They were demos. Of course they were not 'up to standard'. Neither were the GN'R demos from 1986! Also, Axl actually wanted to work on three of them and was dismayed to find that Slash had already began the Snakepit project. Presumably then at least three of them were considered songs that had potential by the lead singer.


As I said, Gilby's dismissal infuriated Duff and Matt also. You have a scenario in which 1/6 of the band sacks 1/6 without consulting, and against the wishes, of the other 3/6.


Because it is subjective. It is pointless arguing the merits of Snakepit as it is pure musical opinion. The person who 'likes' the album's opinion is not necessarily more correct than the person who 'hates' it. Besides, Axl's idea of working hard on things is to sit in a studio for twenty years twiddling overdubs. I think even CD was yanked out of his hands in the end by inerscope; if it was left to his own initiative he may have not released that record! Why not take this 'quality over quantity' argument to its extreme in having for the entire duration of Axl's career, himself working on this hypothetical masterpiece forever which will never be released? We can always say, ''Axl's album is the greatest album ever. We have not heard it yet but this does not confirm otherwise. So let's maintain that it is?''.

But to return to Slash, obviously there was something more 'raw', and 'jam orientated' which Slash brought to the 1985-93 band, contributing to its musical and commercial success as well as image.

The version of Don't Cry that's on the single is also a demo. You can still hear that it's a great song.
Your Gilby defense spin doesn't have validity.

Potential to be better than they were. Probably.





Matt doesn't really matter since he wasn't part of the band. ;)

So you're saying that's the reason they didn't manage to come up with any ideas for a replacement in all that time?





It wasn't about the music on that album. It was a question about whether or not it's easier to change or to take the path of least resistance.
So which one is easier?




/jarmo

The only reason you needed a replacement  in the first place is, 1/6 of the band has just sacked Gilby, over the head of 4/6 (I am assuming Gilby wanted to stay). Dizzy's opinion is unrecorded. By the way, Izzy's tracks on TSI were replaced with Gilby's; studios during the Illusion tour were purposely booked to this purpose. Is this a sign that Gilby was some, 'live stand in'. And you laugh and dismiss Gilby's imagery being included but I think it is a significant argument.

''Easier to change or to take the path of least resistance''? Hmm, sounds like something Axl would say. You mean in terms of musical experimentation?

Live in the sense that he was there for the tour. That's why he was hired. So they could keep touring.
It wasn't that they were gonna go into the studio and record the follow up to Appetite (like the case was with Matt).

It's two different kinds of scenarios.


I mean in terms of anything. Generally speaking from your own life experiences. Which is easier?
Then apply that to a work setting where you could either keep working with somebody or bring somebody new in.

Then also add the fact that your idea is to keep the co-worker who you know will not try to challenge you in any way. You have no idea about a new guy who might actually push you and have demands!



Glad you were able to admit that even a demo can be used to judge a song and whether or not it's up to a certain standard. :)




/jarmo

Seemed a better fit to me than Huge, and I thought there were some cool ideas on Pawn Shop Guitars, but I?m not losing any sleep over the fact Gilby wasn?t allowed to contribute to the creative process of GN'R.
Hindsight is 20-20, but it?s clear Izzy was the heartbeat of that band, and no one was/is going to fill his shoes. Again, easy to say with the benefit of hindsight, but the right call would probably have been to make the compromises necessary to get Izzy back on board, take some time off, and get everyone back on the same page. Obviously, to Slash, Duff, & Matt, Huge wasn?t the answer. To Axl, Gilby wasn?t the answer. Clearly there were compromises to be made on all sides, but egos were to big at that point to accommodate any such thing.

Paul was there to help write songs. Which he has proven to be able to do.

I prefer any of the songs he co-wrote with GN'R over anything Gilby co-wrote with Slash that ended up on the Snakepit album. Sorry all old band and Gilby fans....



/jarmo

We have discussed this before ... That is all true... nobody likes Slash Snakepit... at least not a lot of people..

But its HARDLY the point ... If they all wanted to make it work they would have compromised or found the right guy that all were happy with... they didn't want to...

I would have preferred that band never broke up... and I would have preferred that GNR not only have one album out since then. So that band breaking up didn't lead to bigger and better things.

And again you are right about Paul's writing... Gilby would not have made the impact on future GNR songs that Paul did.. Some of those songs are definitely the most impactful on the record...just not the point.

If Axl and Slash really wanted to continue on together... they would have compromised.. neither did... on anything.

If the only point you care to make is that Axl was right in that Paul was better than Gilby... great... but he alienated the entire band in the process.

No need to apologize.
It?s not exactly clash of the titans, but I can appreciate both. Huge had an advantage in the respect he had Axl singing rather than Dover.
I?d probably rank Huge inspired songs like Back off Bitch among the lesser songs in the GN?R catalogue, though I still fucking love it.
CITR had potential to be great, I would say it?s the high point of CD.
Still, I think it?s pretty obvious that bringing him in to write with Slash, when Slash wanted no part of him, was the wrong move.
I don?t think any rational thinking person would pick Huge over Slash, and that?s essentially what it boiled down to.

I actually prefer Pawnshop Guitars to Snakepit. Gilby only wrote three songs on Snakepit anyway. Pawnshop Guitars is one of my favourites of the solo records.

Yeah, but imagine the scenario.

Here's Paul, he'll help us write.
No!
But he'll only help as long as needed, do you have somebody else in mind?
No!
You don't want to work with Paul and you have no other suggestions?
No! Gilby!
Gilby is gone.
No!

;)






Always preferred Izzy's solo output to Gilby's.

But the strongest track on his album is probably as strong as the strongest on that Snakepit album. 




/jarmo

I realize the guys were not helpful in suggesting somebody else... very clearly.. that was terrible of them.

But when they were told Gilby was out without a say in the matter from the get go... that's started a downward spiral.

Gilby was probably out way before they even started working on Snakepit.

Duff didn't go play and record with Snakepit, with Slash and Gilby. The material wasn't to his liking either.

So I don't know how much it bothered Duff that Gilby was gone to be honest. Slash was the one that had to work with Gilby and brought him along to do Snakepit. Until that had ran its course and then Gilby was gone from there too.

The bigger issue seemed to be who was gonna replace Gilby....




/jarmo

I don't really disagree with any of what you are saying...It's just very clear that Slash Duff and Matt didn't want Paul around. So if Axl had hoped to continue with them, it should have died on the vine right there.

No compromise on either end... and the result was inevitable. Funny, that replacing Gilby was such a turning point in the history of GNR, like people have pointed out the only guy capable was Izzy.

Right, firing Gilby and bringing in Paul were 2 different things.  My understanding of the limited information we have, is that, while the impetus to fire Gilby came from Axl, it was discussed with Slash and Duff.  And, at least, based on this quote from Slash, it looks like Duff may have supported firing Gilby too:

"Then, in turn, [Gilby] had words with Duff. And that sort of cemented the, you know, the relationship, the departure. Whatever you wanna call it." (Slash, Canadian Radio, 04/20/95)

Also, I'm not so sure that Axl was not happy with the quality of Gilby's writing ability. I always thought it was more a matter of wanting to modernize Guns' sound and he didn't think Gilby was the right fit, since he was, in his own words, interested in just "a loud version of The Rolling Stones". 

He almost certainly was. Gilby was sacked in or around June 1994. The recording sessions for It's five o' clock did not take place until September 1994.


I know he did not agree with the hiring of Tobias.

Yeah, but I think if you want to achieve that, it makes sense to have somebody who can write material that reflects that change. Not necessarily somebody who would write songs that sounds like something from the 1960s.

You could be the best in the world at writing that kind of songs, but it wouldn't be right for a band that wants to explorer other avenues, musically.




/jarmo

All the minimizing and running down of Gilby in the world is never going to make the idea to bring in Paul, the way it was done, a good idea.

A lot of false equivalency going on here.

Also not sure I'm really buying this whole "but, but, no one else had any suggestions!" bit.

So...if the others came back and said "OK, we got a guy, so Axl...lose your buddy Paul" then Axl was then going to turn to Paul and say "sorry dude, looks like you're out"?

That's just you assuming you know how things would be because you assume you know that's how Axl works.

Paul left pretty much as soon as they found Richard to be available and there were touring plans.... His work was done.

The question remains. If Gilby was such a great pal to Slash, why wasn't he in Snakepit V2?
If he was so determined to keep him on board, why was he so quick to let Gilby go, even from his own solo career where he made all the shots?

And if he didn't want him there because he wanted to start a new band, maybe that same reason was why Gilby couldn't continue with GN'R!



/jarmo

I can think of a number of reasons. Firstly, the second Snakepit was a completely separate band from the first Snakepit band (it was the record company forcing the 'Slash's Snakepit' tag on Slash by the way); for a start, the first band was a side project whereas the second band was intended as a full time project. Secondly, maybe Slash wanted to work with Ryan Roxie? A creative process with Ryan Roxie does not necessarily indicate some slight at Gilby Clarke. Thirdly, Gilby was busy with his own solo career at the time; in the exact same year Ain't Life Grand was recorded (1999), Gilby was busy playing dates in support of his recent solo album, Rubber (1998). We should not necessarily just assume Gilby is at the beck and call of Slash here.

Slash was also cool with Gilby not continuing on with GNR. 

It wasn't like he wanted him and Axl didn't.  Neither did.

I do not think that is true, is it?

Apparently.

If you read that Chinese Whispers site that chronicled all this crazyness in real time, Slash was just as onboard moving on without him.

I was suprised reading that, but these were direct quotes from Slash.

Slash has shot down as false a former GUNS N' ROSES manager's claim that an argument over the guitarist's collaboration with Michael Jackson is ultimately what fractured the relationship the ex-GN'R axeman and the band's lead singer Axl Rose.

In a recent interview with the Brazilian edition of Rolling Stone magazine, Doug Goldstein ? who managed GUNS N' ROSES from 1991 to 2008 ? said: "In 1991, we were on the road, and Slash went to my office and said, 'I'll be leaving tomorrow to play with Michael Jackson at a tribute concert.' I told him not to do it because Axl was molested by his father when he was two and he believed the charges against Michael Jackson."

He continued: "Everyone knew Eddie Van Halen received $1 million to play in 'Beat It'. So, I asked Slash, 'How much are you receiving?' and he said, 'I'll just get a big-screen TV.'"

Axl was very hurt when he learned about the collaboration. "When Axl found out Slash was going to play with Michael Jackson and that the payment was a big-screen TV, he was devastated," Doug said. "He thought Slash would support him and be against all abuse. From the point of view of Axl, that was the only problem. He could ignore the drugs and the alcohol, but could never the child abuse."

Slash played his final show with GUNS N' ROSES in July 1993, and by October 1996 he announced that he was no longer part of the band.

So what would it take to repair the rift between the guitarist and Axl? "Slash would have to apologize for the episode with Michael Jackson," Goldstein said. "And I really believe ? I'd be the manager to reunite them. I don't think anyone else could do it."

In a brand new interview with "Elliot In The Morning", the morning radio talk show hosted by DJ Elliot Segal, Slash was asked if there is any truth to Goldstein's claims.

"You know what?! I've been hearing a lot about this particular interview from a lot of people that he really pissed off," Slash replied (hear audio below). "And I've heard that. And I don't think there's any truth to that. I mean, obviously, the band stayed together for years after that whole thing. And it wasn't a big deal at the time. And if it did piss anybody off, it was something that went away. So I don't think it had anything to do with the original GUNS N' ROSES' demise."

Slash also explained that he doesn't go out of his way to read any of Goldstein's interviews that have to do with GUNS N' ROSES. "I don't wanna read or hear that guy's B.S., so I just avoid it," he said. "That way I stay sane. [Laughs]"


Read more at http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/slash-shoots-down-claim-his-relationship-with-axl-rose-was-torn-over-michael-jackson-collaboration/#jCsxRFpdxBBB4c6k.99

Of course you can. But you can't think of nay reasons why he had to go from GN'R?

Yes, it was a new band because he wanted something new. So ironically this wasn't an option for GN'R if we ask you. New start for GN'R? Not allowed according to you.
Secondly, maybe Axl wanted to work with somebody who's not Gilby?
Third, yeah and he's been busy since. Didn't stop him from joining that TV supergroup or to play with Heart....




/jarmo

I think it was decided with everybody during the  illusion tours that Gilby is not the right guy, to continue with.

And think this says it to all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGsKjwGidrs

Obviously they were really happy with the work Gilby did for the band touring and recording The Spaghetti Incident.

I have never heard anything like this.  In fact Slash wanted to rehire Gilby in 1995,

I do not agree with this. I think it is certainly true for Axl.

Well at least everybody agreed at some point.

Slash is now weighing in on what we've really known all along, that Doug Goldstein is full of shit.  Goldstein's just doing something to get himself into the public eye, knowing that the words "Guns N Roses" will do it for him, especially if he spins it in a controversial light.

I think when it comes to the history of GNR it's become pretty much impossible to know who's recollection to trust. Not just this matter, but many of the other things that happened as well. For each issue there's at least two stories, most of the time more than that.

I guess it's not all down to drug and alcohol abuse at the time, but the fact that they're trying to remember details of events that happened 20-25 years ago. Being around the Guns N Roses craziness at the time, there must have been millions of things going on during a 5 year period, chaos pretty much.

I think you're right, it was obviously a shameless spotlight grab.