Question about song writing credits

[Bad_Apple]

wow---my 1st time starting a topic, so be gentle!  If this doesn't belong here, move it (the powers that be)--

"hihi!!"

From reading the UYI records, credits are g'n to specific members of the group, does this only account for the lyrical content of the song (vs. musical content), right?  But what about the musical credit?  It can't be assumed that all musicians had equal say/ideas regarding each particular song. 
I would like to know if any one out there has actual knowledge (vs. hearsay/opinions) on how gnr wrote songs.  From my understanding, the musicians would write the songs, then give em to Axl so he could come up with the lyrics.  Does anyone know who was mainly the musical composer?  I'm guessing Slash had a lot to do with the main parts, but am sure the rhythem section would play a part to.  Anyone know (can give speciafic songs as references)?  Because from Matt, on the UYI discs, Axl would direct him on what sorta sound he was going for.  But that's just one ex.
(this topic was infl' by the coma topic here...)

[dave-gnfnr2k]

Question:
I've started a local band in Chicago and we are in process of recording our first full length CD. All the songs and lyrics have been written by myself. What I mean by that is that I write the lyrics and the chords of the song, and then bring it to the band and let them add their respective instruments in any way they seem fit. Occasionally we will change a few chord progressions in the song based on feedback from all the band members. My question to you is should I receive the full copyright credits for the songs? Also, how should the credits be listed inside the cd as well as be filed legally. Thanks so much for your help. - Mark G.


Answer:
Hi Mark:

Your question is a very good one, and you are wise to think about these kinds of matters BEFORE your song(s) ever start to make money. It has been my experience that when the money starts rolling in, everyone's memory becomes very fuzzy about their own contribution and how much they deserve of the whole. It is ALWAYS better to have these issues worked out on paper before the money comes. While many people avoid thinking about contracts and agreements because they fear the friendship with the other band members may be threatened, I always find that a clear and simple letter of agreement SAVES friendships. It simply refreshes everyone's memory about what part they played.

Now, about your songs. If you wrote the LYRICS and the MELODY, you are the sole writer of the songs. Words and Music are the two "non-negotiables" in any copyright. The other two elements of songs -- the HARMONY and RHYTHM -- are matters of arrangement. For example, think about how many arrangements of "Amazing Grace" you have heard -- everything from Country, to bagpipes, to symphonic performances -- but you still know that the song is "Amazing Grace" because the words and
melody are the same.

If your band members added some cool harmonies, rhythms or riffs to the songs in the studio, you may want to include them in the "points" (percentage points) of the song to acknowledge and reward their
contribution. Let's face it, sometimes a musical intro or riff will become the identifying mark for a great song. Think about the intro of Annie Lennox's great song, "Walking on Broken Glass." The syncopated
piano part sets up the whole idea for the hook/title and is unmistakable when you hear it.

My advice is to sit down with the other band members NOW and decide together who did what on the songs. Then draw up a simple letter of agreement for each song (you should probably be the one to draw it up since you are the writer of the songs) and simply outline what percentages of the "writers share" of the song each band member should get. Have everyone involved sign the document and make sure that each one gets a copy of the letter for their files. You don't really have to get a lawyer or engage in any long legaleze contracts since a simple letter of agreement that is signed by all parties is as binding as any contract in court.

I also would suggest that you become very familiar with the whole concept of music publishing. A great book that is very user-friendly is Randy Poe's book, "Music Publishing: a Songwriter's Guide" from Writers
Digest. You really need to understand clearly what is involved in the division of a song -- what is meant by the Writers Share and the Publishers Share etc.

I hope this is of help. Thanks for your question and good luck.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

This is why Axl gets sole credit for nov rain and estranged, he wrote the lyrics and the melody (ie on the piano). As to how the band wrote the songs it depends on the songs, Axl had his songs he brought to the band then slash would write guitar parts for it, and other times slash would have  guitar melodys then axl would listen and write lyrics to it. Then izzy and duff had lyrics and melodys they came up with and the band worked on them.

[Immortal-Cry]

In case of GN'R and ofcoure especially AXL,  hm IMO
I believe in a multistructured way and a real emotional binding to the characteres and stories in the works.
Its not a one way ticket, and thats the real reason Axl holding CD back. Its simple to say, but I can't get it for real whats VR doin.
Axl's the man, and the real profit for the exmembers was Axl.
If you're releasing 10 years the same global manupulatin Rockfreezesongs, I cant take Slash serious anymore.
The real question for me is: Why do artists release Music? For Money or for their Health.
In case of Axl: HEALTH!
I don't say that VR or others are such simple observating products, but Axl dont evolutes he's the rebel of my time. Such a pain that this guy is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo psycho, and dont get it for real that only Membership in groups rebels his own styles to maximum.
Don't take it serious, Axl is the most interesting human in music I know. And thats the real reason why WE ALL are waitin for years.
Just a facinatin fact that the psychos are the real leaders of the world.
 
cu 

[nigtrain_inmyvain]

I can speak only for appetite,but it just goes to show how generous axl was since music is 1/4 of writting credits.I don't think that was still the case with UYI since november rain is credited solely to him

EDIT-actually I think it still is at least partially even on UYI since obviously slash hasn't contributed to coma or locomotive either lyrics or mellody wise.Probably depends on how personal song was to axl

[Bad_Apple]

so let's say on the UYI records, where the credits are mentioned above each song, is this for LYRICAL and MELODY then?  I always just assumed it was only for lyrical content, and the whole band came up with the melody---so my assumption was wrong then?

for ex, in "Dead Horse", Axl is the sole creditied gunner---does this imply he came up with the melody as well?  (and I assume other members came up with the music part--adding in rhythem and stuff)--because how would a non-guitarist (ie. axl) convey the full extent to the sort of melody he was looking for in a particular song?

and for like, "don't cry", (where Izzy and Axl are credited) did axl come up with ALL the lyrics, and Izzy came up with the melody???

that would imply (according to the second post) members who come up with the melody + lyrics (usually the singer and guitarists) win over song credits, whereas the rhythem section (ie. bass and drums) might get "points" for credits??
(but of course that doesn't mean the dummer for ex may write lyrics, or convey the melody of a song)

[dave-gnfnr2k]

Vocal melody is a melody. So vocals and vocal melody is 75% of the song if im not mistaken.

[nigtrain_inmyvain]

for ex, in "Dead Horse", Axl is the sole creditied gunner---does this imply he came up with the melody as well?? (and I assume other members came up with the music part--adding in rhythem and stuff)--because how would a non-guitarist (ie. axl) convey the full extent to the sort of melody he was looking for in a particular song?

Yes,since mellody is vital part of a song.

You also seem to be forgetting that up until 100 years ago most composers weren't exactlly familiar with guitar.

Take the solo slash plays in SCOM.I suck at whistling,but even I could carry most of the mellody slash plays there.I'm not saying axl wrote that solo(tho I heard slash co-wrote it with axl),but it's beyond me how some people figured out that you need to play guitar to be able to write parts for it.How about the godfather theme slash plays or national anthem?The only thing the guitarist has to do is to figure out how to play the mellody he heard(or wrote) on his guitar.

[nigtrain_inmyvain]

Vocal melody is a melody. So vocals and vocal melody is 75% of the song if im not mistaken.

No,there are two kinds of mellodies for the song if I'm not mistaken.I'm saying this since if I remember correctly lyrics and mellodies for them were combined together as 25% of the whole album,at least on appetite

[izzy29]

from 1987- 1991 Izzy wrote most of the songs. even if Axl gets the credit on paper. From 1992 to 2004 Axl writes the songs and we have one song from 'end of days' and 5 new songs on bootlegs. Now you decide who the musical genius was!!!!

[polluxlm]

from 1987- 1991 Izzy wrote most of the songs. even if Axl gets the credit on paper. From 1992 to 2004 Axl writes the songs and we have one song from 'end of days' and 5 new songs on bootlegs. Now you decide who the musical genius was!!!!

Guess Izzy just let his royalties from those 80 million sold records go to Axl then? What are you implying? That Axl threatened the rest of the band to give him song writing credits? That he manipulated them into doing it? It's all bullshit. Axl got 40,2% of Appetite and over 50% of the Illusions, and there's no conspiracy behind that, it's how it was and we got no reason to believe otherwise.

You say Axl has only 'released' 6 songs since Izzy left and that is why Izzy is superior? I say Axl showed us 6 songs where 4 of them are better than most of the shit Izzy has put out in the last decade.

[polluxlm]

No,there are two kinds of mellodies for the song if I'm not mistaken.I'm saying this since if I remember correctly lyrics and mellodies for them were combined together as 25% of the whole album,at least on appetite

No, the credits on Appetite were divided into 4 parts. Lyrics. Melody. Vocal melody. Arrangments. I don't think it was ever mentioned if the parts were equal in value, but I would think so.

[nigtrain_inmyvain]

No,there are two kinds of mellodies for the song if I'm not mistaken.I'm saying this since if I remember correctly lyrics and mellodies for them were combined together as 25% of the whole album,at least on appetite

No, the credits on Appetite were divided into 4 parts. Lyrics. Melody. Vocal melody. Arrangments. I don't think it was ever mentioned if the parts were equal in value, but I would think so.

No,they were divided in 4 parts:
-lyrics + vocal mellody
-mellody
-MUSIC
-arrangments

Notice the word MUSIC where you said mellodies

[nigtrain_inmyvain]

from 1987- 1991 Izzy wrote most of the songs. even if Axl gets the credit on paper. From 1992 to 2004 Axl writes the songs and we have one song from 'end of days' and 5 new songs on bootlegs. Now you decide who the musical genius was!!!!

Guess Izzy just let his royalties from those 80 million sold records go to Axl then? What are you implying? That Axl threatened the rest of the band to give him song writing credits? That he manipulated them into doing it? It's all bullshit. Axl got 40,2% of Appetite and over 50% of the Illusions, and there's no conspiracy behind that, it's how it was and we got no reason to believe otherwise.

You say Axl has only 'released' 6 songs since Izzy left and that is why Izzy is superior? I say Axl showed us 6 songs where 4 of them are better than most of the shit Izzy has put out in the last decade.

They are quick to call you axl nutswinger,but what this izzy fans are implying is border line moronic.Izzy wrote most of it even if Axl is credited for it?!Wow,talk about no ego on izzy's part

[polluxlm]

No,there are two kinds of mellodies for the song if I'm not mistaken.I'm saying this since if I remember correctly lyrics and mellodies for them were combined together as 25% of the whole album,at least on appetite

No, the credits on Appetite were divided into 4 parts. Lyrics. Melody. Vocal melody. Arrangments. I don't think it was ever mentioned if the parts were equal in value, but I would think so.

No,they were divided in 4 parts:
-lyrics + vocal mellody
-mellody
-MUSIC
-arrangments

Notice the word MUSIC where you said mellodies

What's the difference between music and mellody? If you have a riff, chords and you have a vocal mellody, what more is there? Where does this third part fit in?

[Fuckin' Gunner]

Great post, dave-gnfnr2k. 

Izzy29, don't be pathethic... it's a false argument, you're using false things to prove your theory about 'who is the genious'. Lyrically, in my opinion, Izzy has never been great (except the concept of Mr. Brownstone, I think it's amazing), and Axl's royaltes for the Illusions albuns wasn't just a free gift from the others members. 

I'll stop, since this is not the main topic idea. I had the same doubt that Andrea_Rose had (well, I still think that is a little hard to decide it with the other members... lol).

[ppbebe]

No,they were divided in 4 parts:
-lyrics + vocal mellody
-mellody
-MUSIC
-arrangments

Notice the word MUSIC where you said mellodies

What's the difference between music and mellody? If you have a riff, chords and you have a vocal mellody, what more is there? Where does this third part fit in?

OK, as a sloppy Stand-in I try to reply for nigtrain_inmyvain.
There should be the proper technical terms but my stopgaps will do.

Generally speaking, music consists of harmony, rhythm and melody.
Chords are not the melody. A riff is. A Chord is in a category of harmony coz it is made of simultaneous plural notes. Rhythm guitar plays the part chiefly in the harmony. Lead guitar is melodious. Bass contribute low pitched melodies to both the harmony and the Rhythm. Percussion rules the rhythm part. And vocal is for the most part the melody.  The human vocal organ can?t produce more than one voice at a time providing it's not hoomey singing or noises. But when 2 singers sing a duet in tune, these two vocal melodies harmonize.
Then all the parts together make complex harmony and compound rhythm and enrich the sound.
That?s about it.

And now, as to the query Here, among of all these melodies, the melody in question is the main tune that carries the subject or the theme of a music piece.  Accompanied with side melodies, chordal sounds n drums, the subject or the theme leads music.

So, I think
-vocal melody = the subject carried by a singer
-melody          = the subject carried by an instrument (as in intro, outro, and solo)
-MUSIC           = the rest. the accompaniment for the subject part (other melodies, harmony, rhythm)

awfully any old how.
Am I right, nigtrain_inmyvain?

[jimmythegent]

No,they were divided in 4 parts:
-lyrics + vocal mellody
-mellody
-MUSIC
-arrangments

Notice the word MUSIC where you said mellodies

What's the difference between music and mellody? If you have a riff, chords and you have a vocal mellody, what more is there? Where does this third part fit in?

OK, as a sloppy Stand-in I try to reply for nigtrain_inmyvain.
There should be the proper technical terms but my stopgaps will do.

Generally speaking, music consists of harmony, rhythm and melody.
Chords are not the melody. A riff is. A Chord is in a category of harmony coz it is made of simultaneous plural notes. Rhythm guitar plays the part chiefly in the harmony. Lead guitar is melodious. Bass contribute low pitched melodies to both the harmony and the Rhythm. Percussion rules the rhythm part. And vocal is for the most part the melody.? The human vocal organ can’t produce more than one voice at a time providing it's not hoomey singing or noises. But when 2 singers sing a duet in tune, these two vocal melodies harmonize.
Then all the parts together make complex harmony and compound rhythm and enrich the sound.
That’s about it.

And now, as to the query Here, among of all these melodies, the melody in question is the main tune that carries the subject or the theme of a music piece.? Accompanied with side melodies, chordal sounds n drums, the subject or the theme leads music.

So, I think
-vocal melody = the subject carried by a singer
-melody? ? ? ? ? = the subject carried by an instrument (as in intro, outro, and solo)
-MUSIC? ? ? ? ? ?= the rest. the accompaniment for the subject part (other melodies, harmony, rhythm)

awfully any old how.
Am I right, nigtrain_inmyvain?

very nice explanation ppbebe -  very good and accurate description