Do Bumblefoot and Fortus render Finck obsolete for GnR?

[whiteshark]

whiteshark your expertise is needed on the nightrain thread I started....

Thanks SylverterStallone!

[SylvesterStallone]

whiteshark your expertise is needed on the nightrain thread I started....

Thanks SylverterStallone!

Check your pm's man....

[SylvesterStallone]

Whiteshark I know you expressed a bit of dissapointment with Bumblefoot, but what were your thoughts on his Don't Cry solo?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxvEXCdMGpo&search=ron%20thal

[Mattattack]

I think Finck is in the band because of his songwriting. That's why he's earned the right to play lead guitar in this band I imagine. That's the only logical explanation anway, because as far as playing live goes,  Richard and Footie are far superior players.

[whiteshark]

His Don't Cry version is just a rework of the vocal melody interpreted by Axl in this song!
It's not bad but it is not good, it's just Ok. I mean, it's not special enough to judge it!

[AxlFink]

1) He's not very good doing bends (the prebends are awful).  When he does bends the note he reaches is out of key or even out of tune.
2) His right hand is very weak. He is not very good picking notes.
3) His phrasing is really bad when playing lead.
 

I think that all three of those complaints are style arguments rather than technique. You're making assumptions in each case about what you think he's trying to achieve, and comparing the results against textbook guitar technique - the problem being that if your assumption is wrong then your criticism is wrong too. Example: If you're expecting Finck to use bends in a "classic rock" style, to fluidly extend one note into the next, then of course it's going to sound "wrong" to you when he instead spends more time "in the bend," creating that broad, dissonant sound. The focus there is not the start note or the end note (in fact, the end note is not even a consideration) but the broad, sprawling wail between. Yes, it's pitchy and out of tune to a degree, that's the point. It's a more emotionally resonant, organic sound. I don't know why it's not in your Bumper Book Of Guitar Teacher Technique, maybe you need to update it from the 1980s version.   

And really, "bad phrasing"? There's no such thing. You don't have to like his phrasing, but to call it "bad" is like saying "he's expressing himself wrongly!"  I guess Miles Davis and John Coltrane had REALLY BAD phrasing. I bet there were trumpet and sax teachers going crazy over those two. 

Textbook technique rarely makes for good guitar playing. Any point that is agreed upon is, by definition, only an average, a middle way.  Great guitar players have always done their own thing. I mean, do you judge Hendrix's woodstock performance as a disaster of technique or a shining example of emotive, spontanious music?

u got it 100% right imho.  great post!  robin is a geat player.

[Naupis]

robin is a geat player.

Yet still the third best guitarist (out of 3) in his own band.

I am sure he is a nice guy and has been real loyal to Axl, but to have him playing some of these leads instead of the more talented players is the equivalent to the Championship Chicago Bulls teams with Jordan and Pippen having BJ Armstrong shoot the game winning shot every game on the basis of loyalty and tenure, rather than talent and ability. That would have never ever happened.

Having Fink continue to play lead while there are 2 more talented players in the group is degrading the overall quality of the live product for the fans.

[veritas55]

His Don't Cry version is just a rework of the vocal melody interpreted by Axl in this song!
It's not bad but it is not good, it's just Ok. I mean, it's not special enough to judge it!

I completely agreed with your (whiteshark's) review comparing slash, buckethead, and ron.  But I disagree slightly with this -- I thought it was a very tastefully played and interesting part of his solo.  and it stood out as "special" in the sense of being some tasty guitar playing in an otherwise distasteful display on unmelodic shredding.

[HoldenCaulfield]

Finck is a star. He may not be the most technically proficient player, but he shines on the stage. I can't wait to see what he has contributed to the album, even though we already know that he is credited with 'Better', which is amazing...

[da_pope]

Ron's Don't Cry thing was really cool but not impressive in a technical kind of way.
Fink is terrible at Slash's shit and there's no question about it. Mr. Brownstone, Sweet Child O' Mine, November Rain all butchered. Hell, even his solo's (I don't call the Christina Aguilera vocal line HIS solo) suck.

Let him play rythym.
He can be like Izzy... Write amazing songs but let the better guitarist(s) play lead.

[25]

In music phrasing means this: A natural division of the melodic line, comparable to a sentence of speech.

[. . .]

A bend IS A GUITAR TECHNIQUE USED TO CHANGE THE PITCH of a note, and the most important thing is the END NOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How is possible that you don't know this?

[. . .]

.... learn something about music before talking about it! Don't spread your garbage knowledge over the net.
In case you don't know it there are a lot of guitar teachers in guitar boards giving very very bad reviews to Robin Finck and they are all saying the same thing about his poor bendings and bad phrasing.

Peace guy, and don't use my time to teach you this Basic things!

Perhaps you're missing my point because of the language barrier, so I'll try to be more clear this time;

"Good" or "bad" phrasing is a subjective call, made by the listener (assuming that we're not talking about absolute ineptitude on the part of the performer, but a deliberate choice in the presentation of the melody). As you yourself stated, musical phrasing is comparable to verbal speech - by extension, the syntax used to express the sentiment can vary from person to person as it would in speech. The fact that you said "his phrasing is really bad" suggests that you believe their to be a particular way you'd prefer to hear his lead lines phrased (a specific example would be helpful here) - I suggest that different and bad are not mutually inclusive.

And yes, I think we all know what a bend is. Your complaint is that Finck tends not to produce crisp, pitch-perfect bends - and that's fine, it's a legitimate complaint if you expect him to do so. But bends can be used for much more than that, as I attempted to explain before. Perhaps if you read my previous post again at face value ( i.e. without taking it as criticism) you'll get what I was saying. Of course, there are times when Finck simply fudges a regular bend - that's life.

Lastly, I'm sure you were on the defensive because you perceived my  post to be an attack on yours but still, I don't think it's necessary to condescend to me from your lofty position as a guitar teacher. I've been playing guitar, as well as bass/keys, for about fifteen years. My "garbage knowledge" was aquired through a decade and a half of practical experience

[Budweiser Froggs]

i rarely post in threads, but Finck is my favorite new member.  For the 2006 shows I feel his stage presence is amazing and has a great new look.  I love the way he expresses his emotions through the guitar rather than just picking away.  He seems really into what he is playing.  If I had to pick two I feel that Fortus and Finck are all we need (although Thal is a great bonus to have with his speed).

Is Finck needed?  Of course he is!!!

[Voodoochild]

I thought this was already dead horse... Oh well..

Now we need experts to tell who is good enough?

I play guitar myself and I can say Robins unexpected notes are a hell lot better than the other two. Ron and Richard, even if I love them, are more like regular guitar players. Yeah, both have awesome skills, but they are not that different. Robin has his unique sound and his solos are just mindblowing. Saying he's not capable to play leads is just a narrow mind statement. Its like "oh, we need perfect guys, no matter if they are just like everybody else".

[ShotgunBlues1978]

I like Robin's mojo on stage.  He has presence and really gets into the show, and the crowd responds well to him.  His less precise play is balanced out by Fortus and Thal.  But I still don't like his solo on NR, never have and never will 

But his solo on SCOM seems better these days

[Jim Bob]

And know one of the worst phrasing that i have ever hear in my life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QdXxDQCfjQ&search=robin%20Finck

whatever.  I think he does it much better than the original guy who played it.   Finck owns Mr Bstone.

[Budweiser Froggs]

Ron and Richard, even if I love them, are more like regular guitar players.

EXACTLY!

[AxlFink]

robin is a geat player.

Yet still the third best guitarist (out of 3) in his own band.

I am sure he is a nice guy and has been real loyal to Axl, but to have him playing some of these leads instead of the more talented players is the equivalent to the Championship Chicago Bulls teams with Jordan and Pippen having BJ Armstrong shoot the game winning shot every game on the basis of loyalty and tenure, rather than talent and ability. That would have never ever happened.

Having Fink continue to play lead while there are 2 more talented players in the group is degrading the overall quality of the live product for the fans.

bumblefoot is not better than fink in any way. 

[AXL 20]

robin is a geat player.

Yet still the third best guitarist (out of 3) in his own band.

I am sure he is a nice guy and has been real loyal to Axl, but to have him playing some of these leads instead of the more talented players is the equivalent to the Championship Chicago Bulls teams with Jordan and Pippen having BJ Armstrong shoot the game winning shot every game on the basis of loyalty and tenure, rather than talent and ability. That would have never ever happened.

Having Fink continue to play lead while there are 2 more talented players in the group is degrading the overall quality of the live product for the fans.

bumblefoot is not better than fink in any way.?

I hate to tell you but there is no "fink" in the band.
Ron (his name really isnt bumblefoot and ron just sounds normal) IS a much better player than finck. not much to it. It's in the books, ask any educated guitarist (and im not saying I am one, because what i say are from a GN'R fans' point of view who happens to play guitar)

[Buddha_Master]

Finck is as creative as he is experimental. I'll take him over a guitarist who is a better technical guitarist. He is one of the reasons a track like Better is so charming. Yea I said it. Charming. That opening strange ass sounding riff is cool ass shit. Thank you Finck!

[Mattattack]

Finck is more creative then Richard or Footie.  The problem is, on the old songs, Finck tends to hit some bum notes, where as Footie and Fortus play them perfectly. Since the songs are the most important thing we'll have to live with Robins sloppiness because he has the ability to write kick ass tunes like better.