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Author Topic: Donald Trump & 2016 Election  (Read 153257 times)
pilferk
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« Reply #2900 on: May 31, 2019, 10:22:40 AM »

What I am finding odd in all of this is if Mueller made a decision on collusion, why couldn't he on obstruction?

No he didn't.

What he said was they couldn't find enough evidence of conspiracy to meet the burden of proof that would be required to indict. And then the report refers to section 2 (aka the section on obstruction), directly.  It clearly says they feel that one of the reasons they couldn't find the evidence of coordination was due to the obstructing of the investigation.

Also, there is no crime called collusion.  So "no collusion" is just a tag line.  Mueller didn't address collusion, because it's not a legally defined thing that can result in an indictable crime.

For there to be a conspiracy, they need evidence of COORDINATED efforts between the two parties, and while there are interactions between the Trump campaign and the Russians that are concerning, they couldn't find evidence that the mutually beneficial acts they took were done in a COORDINATED manner. 

And here's the thing: If they HAD found enough evidence to alledge conspiracy, it would have been treated just like obstruction was.  They would have punted it to congress, laying out the case, but making no conclusions.

Really, man....you gotta read the report if you haven't already.  It clears up a lot of this stuff, and you're asking SOME questions that it addresses.

As an aside: He "couldn't on obstruction" because he sees obvious evidence of wrongdoing.  With conspiracy, he could cite a lack of evidence (which isn't the same as saying it didn't happen).

Again, the tag line "No Collusion. No Obstruction." is a lie that this report destroys if you read it.

Quote
He could have said there was enough that was found in the investigation for an obstruction case and left it at that. Then it goes to the AG. At that point if Barr declined to go further then there'd be no denying that the AG was biased.

No, he can't.

Because, since the DOJ can't indict the sitting president, the DOJ has no place in making a recommendation, or forming a conclusion.  That's left to congress.  All they can do is lay out the facts of the case and say "We can't clear him of wrongdoing".

That's Muellers read on the Justice Department opinion that you can't indict a sitting president.

If DOJ can't indict, they can't accuse.  And forming conclusions would, in this case, have been akin to an accusation.  That's what he's saying: I couldn't form conclusions because, if I did, I'd be accusing the sitting president of obstruction.  Since I can't indict, and give the president a forum to defend himself, I therefore can't conclude, either, because it is akin to accusation.  The DOJ has, really, formed a very narrow box when viewed through principal and Mueller is unwilling to get out of that box.

I know you have to jump through some logical hoops on this one, but that's why he did what he did, and it's why he's saying what he's saying.

Quote
A lot of unanswered questions left on the table with all of this. And Mueller wants to not answer for anything.  He stirred the pot and now goes into hiding.

He's trying to goad congress into doing their job.  He wants CONGRESS to answer those questions via impeachment hearings, because he feels the DOJ can't without essentially leveling a legal accusation at someone who has no forum for defense/remediation (since they can't indict him).

« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 10:30:47 AM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #2901 on: May 31, 2019, 11:08:04 AM »

IMO i think the democrats are clearly afraid impeaching him would backfire. Which certainly could happen but it could also go in their favor in 2020. Their responsibility though is country first and party second.
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pilferk
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« Reply #2902 on: May 31, 2019, 02:47:48 PM »

IMO i think the democrats are clearly afraid impeaching him would backfire. Which certainly could happen but it could also go in their favor in 2020. Their responsibility though is country first and party second.

Yeah, I just don't know.

There is zero chance he gets convicted in the Senate, even if there was a mountain of evidence presented.  Because the Republicans have CLEARLY prioritized power over country (or principal).  So, at the end of this, if you impeach him before 2020, even if he's guilty as hell, he gets off scott free.  AND he gets to use that in his campaign, even if it looks like a kangaroo court. You thought "no collusion. No obstruction" was bad?  Wait until he has a not guilty impeachment verdict in his back pocket.

But, if they just keep kicking the ball down the road, they are not doing their job.  There is clearly something here, concerning the president's behavior and his campaign, that needs to be litigated here.  And publicly.

If the Dems ignore that Constitutional onus, just to protect themselves politically...aren't they doing the same thing as the Republicans are in protecting the president?

I suspect they will fight this all out in court, and see what happens. By the time they have permission (or don't) to get all the info they want, we're likely into late 2019 or early 2020.  At that point, you actually hold the congressional investigations to GET the information you wanted, and plow through it.  It's now mid-2020.

You take the temp of the population and see whats what.

I totally see the Dems point of not wanting to give Repubs a rallying cry that costs the Dems the 2020 elections (both Senate...which is not a great setup for the Repubs as it is...and the Presidency).  You'd lose both the battle and the war.

But I just don't know if you can ignore this.  Or, rather, if you SHOULD ignore this. 

Stay tuned?
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« Reply #2903 on: May 31, 2019, 05:17:29 PM »

Quote
"Just because we could not find the evidence does not mean it does not exist"

This needs to be plastered on 100 foot billboards across the country.

IMO i think the democrats are clearly afraid impeaching him would backfire. Which certainly could happen but it could also go in their favor in 2020. Their responsibility though is country first and party second.

Yeah, I just don't know.

There is zero chance he gets convicted in the Senate, even if there was a mountain of evidence presented.  Because the Republicans have CLEARLY prioritized power over country (or principal).  So, at the end of this, if you impeach him before 2020, even if he's guilty as hell, he gets off scott free.  AND he gets to use that in his campaign, even if it looks like a kangaroo court. You thought "no collusion. No obstruction" was bad?  Wait until he has a not guilty impeachment verdict in his back pocket.

But, if they just keep kicking the ball down the road, they are not doing their job.  There is clearly something here, concerning the president's behavior and his campaign, that needs to be litigated here.  And publicly.

If the Dems ignore that Constitutional onus, just to protect themselves politically...aren't they doing the same thing as the Republicans are in protecting the president?

I suspect they will fight this all out in court, and see what happens. By the time they have permission (or don't) to get all the info they want, we're likely into late 2019 or early 2020.  At that point, you actually hold the congressional investigations to GET the information you wanted, and plow through it.  It's now mid-2020.

You take the temp of the population and see whats what.

I totally see the Dems point of not wanting to give Repubs a rallying cry that costs the Dems the 2020 elections (both Senate...which is not a great setup for the Repubs as it is...and the Presidency).  You'd lose both the battle and the war.

But I just don't know if you can ignore this.  Or, rather, if you SHOULD ignore this. 

Stay tuned?

Impeachment would give Trump the ultimate victim card. And without the senate to convict, it means nothing. I don't give a flying fuck about the symbolic victory of impeachment. And not impeaching is not ignoring. There are many other ways to impeach (in the informal sense) his credibility, which they are doing right now anyway; digging for his tax returns, looking into his foreign business dealings, etc.

For once, I am with Pelosi.
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« Reply #2904 on: May 31, 2019, 06:30:10 PM »

"Just because we could not find the evidence does not mean it does not exist"

Guilty until proven innocent? That isn't how the justice system works.  Just because there was no evidence of me flying to Miami by flapping my arms and taking flight doesn't mean it didn't happen    hihi

Just because we could not find the evidence does not mean it does exist means the same thing.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 06:31:57 PM by Senator Blutarsky » Logged

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« Reply #2905 on: June 01, 2019, 12:06:42 AM »

"Just because we could not find the evidence does not mean it does not exist"

Guilty until proven innocent? That isn't how the justice system works.  Just because there was no evidence of me flying to Miami by flapping my arms and taking flight doesn't mean it didn't happen    hihi

Just because we could not find the evidence does not mean it does exist means the same thing.

BECAUSE OF OBSTRUCTION.

Are you hard of hearing or just terrible at reading comprehension? Oy vey...
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« Reply #2906 on: June 01, 2019, 01:21:33 AM »

Mueller explicitly said if there was no evidence of obstruction he would have said so in the report. This isn't rocket science. That statement alone makes it quite clear evidence exists. He just wouldn't make the accusation because of the long standing ruling of not indicting a president. So he punted to congress to use their powers in a forum where they can charge the president and he can defend himself. As for coordinating with Russia to conspire to steal the election. We will probably never know because of people refusing to cooperate. Did they refuse to cooperate to cover up that or are they just stupid? I don't know. Did Trump order his staff to interfere to cover up or is he stupid and couldn't help himself? Just cause he attempted to interfere doesn't mean he was covering up coordination with Russia though. Trump has a history of doing really stupid shit that looks really bad even if he had done nothing wrong. Any American regardless of political affiliation should hope that if everyone had cooperated fully and Mueller was able to get all possible evidence he wanted that he would say no coordination. The simple fact Trump tried to interfere would indicate he was afraid of something in particular wold have been found. People with nothing to hide cooperate and do not interfere in an investigation. If they had nothing to hide they would've fully cooperated and Mueller would've said nothing to see here move along now.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 01:25:16 AM by tim_m » Logged
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« Reply #2907 on: June 01, 2019, 09:58:05 AM »

"Just because we could not find the evidence does not mean it does not exist"

Guilty until proven innocent? That isn't how the justice system works.  Just because there was no evidence of me flying to Miami by flapping my arms and taking flight doesn't mean it didn't happen    hihi

Just because we could not find the evidence does not mean it does exist means the same thing.

BECAUSE OF OBSTRUCTION.

Are you hard of hearing or just terrible at reading comprehension? Oy vey...

 
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« Reply #2908 on: June 01, 2019, 10:18:57 AM »

Are you hard of hearing or just terrible at reading comprehension? Oy vey...


What does that make you?

I've asked people to be nice and respectful of differing opinions.

No need for that shit.




/jarmo


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pilferk
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« Reply #2909 on: June 01, 2019, 10:59:53 AM »

"Just because we could not find the evidence does not mean it does not exist"

Guilty until proven innocent? That isn't how the justice system works.  Just because there was no evidence of me flying to Miami by flapping my arms and taking flight doesn't mean it didn't happen    hihi

In a vaccum? No.

With the context of a solid case for obstruction? Yes.

Or, rather, you don't assume their guilt, but you tackle the fact that their obstruction likely prevented you from gathering the evidence necessary to prove the first charge. 

The point is: The special council thinks one of the reasons they couldn't find evidence is because Trump and others obstructed the investigation, and prevented them from finding it.

Again, this is layed out, clearly, both IN THE REPORT (which you should definitely read) and in Mueller's comments.

You can't simply take the first statement that you quoted and poo poo it without the added context as to WHY.

Quote
Just because we could not find the evidence does not mean it does exist means the same thing.

No, it absolutely does not, given the context, which you are either desperately trying to ignore or are willfully refusing to acknowledge.  I'm not sure which it is, but at this point its been laid out clearly to everyone willing to listen/read.

There are two options, both equally possible:

There is no evidence to find.

The evidence exists but the obstruction efforts prevented it from being found.

You can choose to believe the first, but you can't deny the case has been made for obstruction, which weakens that stance substantially.

If there is evidence that a person burns the body, destroys the murder weapon, cleans up the scene of all forensic evidence, and then refuses to answer law enforcement questions, directly....you can believe they're not the murderer.  And there's no/minimal evidence showing that they committed the crime of murder.  But there's certainly signs they obstructed the investigation, impeding law enforcement from figuring out if they DID commit the crime.

Is that a little clearer?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 01:07:26 PM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #2910 on: June 01, 2019, 12:22:55 PM »

Are you hard of hearing or just terrible at reading comprehension? Oy vey...


What does that make you?

I've asked people to be nice and respectful of differing opinions.

No need for that shit.




/jarmo




... and nothing to say about his trolling?

Christ, this is like letting your kid repeatedly pull a dog's tail and yelling at the dog when it finally bites. You're completely ignoring the deliberate antagonism that leads to insults. Mean words are bad but psychological games are okay? And I also pointed out several insults from that other troll but you never call him out...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 12:27:36 PM by PermissionToLand » Logged
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« Reply #2911 on: June 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM »

 

AHEM...
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pilferk
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« Reply #2912 on: June 01, 2019, 12:31:32 PM »


Impeachment would give Trump the ultimate victim card. And without the senate to convict, it means nothing. I don't give a flying fuck about the symbolic victory of impeachment. And not impeaching is not ignoring. There are many other ways to impeach (in the informal sense) his credibility, which they are doing right now anyway; digging for his tax returns, looking into his foreign business dealings, etc.

For once, I am with Pelosi.

The problem is, to get the information they need to get out to the public, eventually they are going to shit or get off the pot.  Because the courts will give them leeway on some stuff, but eventually, to compel people to testify, they are going to need to launch some sort of umbrella action to convince the courts to enforce congressional subpoenas with arrest warrants.  Traditionally, there are some civil penalties they can impose...but even those have had mixed enforcement in the courts (again, they have to prove that the testimony has some sort of negative congressional impact).

I am not FOR impeachment, for exactly the reasons you lay out.

I am not AGAINST impeachment, for exactly the reasons I've laid out.

I think you slow roll the entire thing to give him as little political aid as you can. But I think ABANDONING the roll is a dereliction of their Constitutional duty.

Hell, if it were possible, I'd hold over the THREAT of impeachment right up until right after the 2020 election....without using it as a campaign promise or platform.  Then, the week after, reelected or not, you draft and sign the articles of impeachment. And if you're Pelosi, in the meantime, you tell people: We are continuing our investigations, but our focus is on making life better for the American People.  The committees that need to provide oversight will continue to do so, while the rest of us work on kitchen table issues.  If and when those committees have suggestions for next step, and information to present to the entire House, we will give it due consideration and act as our Congressional duties demand.

BUT, during the next 18 months, you also have to, as Pelosi said, walk and chew gum at the same time.  They need to do a better job of getting the legislation they are passing, on a regular basis, to the fore front of the news cycle, and demonstrate that they are trying to do their jobs...while the Senate obstructs the agenda that the people voted for in November 2018.

The Equality Act that just passed a couple weeks ago is a great example.  Every Dem house rep interviewed that's asked about impeachment should slip in a mention of this act passing the House.  Letting the conversation be 100% about impeachment, all the time, every time, almost forces them to campaign on that issue into 2020.  They should certainly talk about it, since it's in the public's conversation right now.  But they need to make sure they are championing, and talking about, the things they are sending to the Senate that the Senate is just flat out ignoring.

The House has ALREADY passed close to a dozen pieces of legislation that speak directly to their 2018 agenda.  And they get next to no press.  We've seen it evidenced here by some of the conservative posters who insist they've done NOTHING but investigate the President since January...and that's simply not true.

The Dems need to do the exact thing they have proven so terrible at over the past decade: Take control the political discourse and messaging.  They are incredibly bad at this.  They let the Repubs control the topics.  They are too reactionary and not proactive enough.  They need to mix the conversation so that it's both kitchen table AND oversight.  If they somehow manage to do that, they'll be in good shape.  But they have to stop ONLY chasing the shiny objects that are this presidents hallmark.  All the bad behavior is dominating the conversation.  Which isn't to say it shouldn't be PART of the conversation.  But the Dems need to continue to push their IDEAS, too.  And, with some exceptions, they are letting those ideas get lost in the noise of the presidents near DAILY fuck ups.

The fuck ups are like train wrecks, so I get it's somewhat hard to get your signal over the noise, but they have to find a way.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 01:09:23 PM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #2913 on: June 01, 2019, 12:50:16 PM »


The all caps and calling me stupid in your post makes it look like you are mad.
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« Reply #2914 on: June 01, 2019, 02:56:22 PM »

Also this should tell you all you need to know about the current state of the Republican party (And yes, it's from August of last year):

Quote
Republicans block $250 million to beef up election security

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/08/01/republicans-block-money-election-security/884438002/?fbclid=IwAR0A2RCohixKav2MPKOrsk7aXGMLxQvNgqigVlOSimoQyGdrzVP4Nkkdass


and from this week:
Quote
Despite Mueller's warning, McConnell blocks bipartisan election security bills

https://www.salon.com/2019/05/30/despite-muellers-warning-mcconnell-blocks-bipartisan-election-security-bills/
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 03:00:24 PM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #2915 on: June 01, 2019, 04:58:34 PM »

Not a fan of Mitch lately.  He said he'd fill a supreme court vacancy in 2020. That was stupid,if you're gonna cite the Biden rule you should also adhere to it.

And then there is the voting security thing. That attitude makes it harder to enact reforms that require both sides of the aisle working together ( voter ID, uniform voting machines, etc)

Stuff like this just makes Washington even more dysfunctional. And in no way am I saying the Democrats are not playing their own part in this dysfunction.
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« Reply #2916 on: June 01, 2019, 05:13:11 PM »



Exactly.

That was posted AFTER your insult.

So I guess in your defense your insults were aimed at the trolling you knew were gonna occur later? I see...


Anyway, arguing with me about it isn't the best solution here.... I asked you to play nice. I won't ask many times. Smiley






/jarmo
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« Reply #2917 on: June 01, 2019, 07:59:30 PM »

Not a fan of Mitch lately.  He said he'd fill a supreme court vacancy in 2020. That was stupid,if you're gonna cite the Biden rule you should also adhere to it.

And then there is the voting security thing. That attitude makes it harder to enact reforms that require both sides of the aisle working together ( voter ID, uniform voting machines, etc)

Stuff like this just makes Washington even more dysfunctional. And in no way am I saying the Democrats are not playing their own part in this dysfunction.

Much is a horrible human being, a total hypocrite.
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« Reply #2918 on: June 01, 2019, 08:04:32 PM »

Sounds like quite the career politician.

Then again, the Republicans have set the bar quite low for what's acceptable behavior these days.


Seems like things that outraged them back in the Clinton days for example, now is business as usual.....

All credit to those who dare to go against the party line and speak out.




/jarmo
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« Reply #2919 on: June 01, 2019, 08:09:59 PM »


Impeachment would give Trump the ultimate victim card. And without the senate to convict, it means nothing. I don't give a flying fuck about the symbolic victory of impeachment. And not impeaching is not ignoring. There are many other ways to impeach (in the informal sense) his credibility, which they are doing right now anyway; digging for his tax returns, looking into his foreign business dealings, etc.

For once, I am with Pelosi.

The problem is, to get the information they need to get out to the public, eventually they are going to shit or get off the pot.  Because the courts will give them leeway on some stuff, but eventually, to compel people to testify, they are going to need to launch some sort of umbrella action to convince the courts to enforce congressional subpoenas with arrest warrants.  Traditionally, there are some civil penalties they can impose...but even those have had mixed enforcement in the courts (again, they have to prove that the testimony has some sort of negative congressional impact).

I am not FOR impeachment, for exactly the reasons you lay out.

I am not AGAINST impeachment, for exactly the reasons I've laid out.

I think you slow roll the entire thing to give him as little political aid as you can. But I think ABANDONING the roll is a dereliction of their Constitutional duty.

Hell, if it were possible, I'd hold over the THREAT of impeachment right up until right after the 2020 election....without using it as a campaign promise or platform.  Then, the week after, reelected or not, you draft and sign the articles of impeachment. And if you're Pelosi, in the meantime, you tell people: We are continuing our investigations, but our focus is on making life better for the American People.  The committees that need to provide oversight will continue to do so, while the rest of us work on kitchen table issues.  If and when those committees have suggestions for next step, and information to present to the entire House, we will give it due consideration and act as our Congressional duties demand.

BUT, during the next 18 months, you also have to, as Pelosi said, walk and chew gum at the same time.  They need to do a better job of getting the legislation they are passing, on a regular basis, to the fore front of the news cycle, and demonstrate that they are trying to do their jobs...while the Senate obstructs the agenda that the people voted for in November 2018.

The Equality Act that just passed a couple weeks ago is a great example.  Every Dem house rep interviewed that's asked about impeachment should slip in a mention of this act passing the House.  Letting the conversation be 100% about impeachment, all the time, every time, almost forces them to campaign on that issue into 2020.  They should certainly talk about it, since it's in the public's conversation right now.  But they need to make sure they are championing, and talking about, the things they are sending to the Senate that the Senate is just flat out ignoring.

The House has ALREADY passed close to a dozen pieces of legislation that speak directly to their 2018 agenda.  And they get next to no press.  We've seen it evidenced here by some of the conservative posters who insist they've done NOTHING but investigate the President since January...and that's simply not true.

The Dems need to do the exact thing they have proven so terrible at over the past decade: Take control the political discourse and messaging.  They are incredibly bad at this.  They let the Repubs control the topics.  They are too reactionary and not proactive enough.  They need to mix the conversation so that it's both kitchen table AND oversight.  If they somehow manage to do that, they'll be in good shape.  But they have to stop ONLY chasing the shiny objects that are this presidents hallmark.  All the bad behavior is dominating the conversation.  Which isn't to say it shouldn't be PART of the conversation.  But the Dems need to continue to push their IDEAS, too.  And, with some exceptions, they are letting those ideas get lost in the noise of the presidents near DAILY fuck ups.

The fuck ups are like train wrecks, so I get it's somewhat hard to get your signal over the noise, but they have to find a way.


You described my Mom perfectly with this. She thinks the Democrats have done nothing but support indantcide, illegals voting etc.
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