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Author Topic: Donald Trump & 2016 Election  (Read 139897 times)
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« Reply #2920 on: June 02, 2019, 04:50:20 PM »


The all caps and calling me stupid in your post makes it look like you are mad.

And the troll meme makes you look like a troll.

I wouldn't need to use bold lettering if you wouldn't dodge the main points people make...
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 04:59:41 PM by PermissionToLand » Logged
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« Reply #2921 on: June 02, 2019, 04:58:57 PM »


Impeachment would give Trump the ultimate victim card. And without the senate to convict, it means nothing. I don't give a flying fuck about the symbolic victory of impeachment. And not impeaching is not ignoring. There are many other ways to impeach (in the informal sense) his credibility, which they are doing right now anyway; digging for his tax returns, looking into his foreign business dealings, etc.

For once, I am with Pelosi.

The problem is, to get the information they need to get out to the public, eventually they are going to shit or get off the pot.  Because the courts will give them leeway on some stuff, but eventually, to compel people to testify, they are going to need to launch some sort of umbrella action to convince the courts to enforce congressional subpoenas with arrest warrants.  Traditionally, there are some civil penalties they can impose...but even those have had mixed enforcement in the courts (again, they have to prove that the testimony has some sort of negative congressional impact).

I am not FOR impeachment, for exactly the reasons you lay out.

I am not AGAINST impeachment, for exactly the reasons I've laid out.

I think you slow roll the entire thing to give him as little political aid as you can. But I think ABANDONING the roll is a dereliction of their Constitutional duty.

Hell, if it were possible, I'd hold over the THREAT of impeachment right up until right after the 2020 election....without using it as a campaign promise or platform.  Then, the week after, reelected or not, you draft and sign the articles of impeachment. And if you're Pelosi, in the meantime, you tell people: We are continuing our investigations, but our focus is on making life better for the American People.  The committees that need to provide oversight will continue to do so, while the rest of us work on kitchen table issues.  If and when those committees have suggestions for next step, and information to present to the entire House, we will give it due consideration and act as our Congressional duties demand.

BUT, during the next 18 months, you also have to, as Pelosi said, walk and chew gum at the same time.  They need to do a better job of getting the legislation they are passing, on a regular basis, to the fore front of the news cycle, and demonstrate that they are trying to do their jobs...while the Senate obstructs the agenda that the people voted for in November 2018.

The Equality Act that just passed a couple weeks ago is a great example.  Every Dem house rep interviewed that's asked about impeachment should slip in a mention of this act passing the House.  Letting the conversation be 100% about impeachment, all the time, every time, almost forces them to campaign on that issue into 2020.  They should certainly talk about it, since it's in the public's conversation right now.  But they need to make sure they are championing, and talking about, the things they are sending to the Senate that the Senate is just flat out ignoring.

The House has ALREADY passed close to a dozen pieces of legislation that speak directly to their 2018 agenda.  And they get next to no press.  We've seen it evidenced here by some of the conservative posters who insist they've done NOTHING but investigate the President since January...and that's simply not true.

The Dems need to do the exact thing they have proven so terrible at over the past decade: Take control the political discourse and messaging.  They are incredibly bad at this.  They let the Repubs control the topics.  They are too reactionary and not proactive enough.  They need to mix the conversation so that it's both kitchen table AND oversight.  If they somehow manage to do that, they'll be in good shape.  But they have to stop ONLY chasing the shiny objects that are this presidents hallmark.  All the bad behavior is dominating the conversation.  Which isn't to say it shouldn't be PART of the conversation.  But the Dems need to continue to push their IDEAS, too.  And, with some exceptions, they are letting those ideas get lost in the noise of the presidents near DAILY fuck ups.

The fuck ups are like train wrecks, so I get it's somewhat hard to get your signal over the noise, but they have to find a way.



As usual, you make compelling points! Say what you will about the freshman Dems in the house, but they know how to work messaging. It's also great to see at least Warren coming out with frequent specific policy stances. For that alone, I am being drawn to her. It also makes me fear the failure that a candidate with no message at all, like Biden or Klobuchar, could entail...
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« Reply #2922 on: June 03, 2019, 07:03:16 AM »

As usual, you make compelling points! Say what you will about the freshman Dems in the house, but they know how to work messaging. It's also great to see at least Warren coming out with frequent specific policy stances. For that alone, I am being drawn to her. It also makes me fear the failure that a candidate with no message at all, like Biden or Klobuchar, could entail...

I honestly think it's a generational thing, with the Freshman Dems.  Say what you want about AOC, but her ability to drive a conversation, and deliver a message, is pretty impressive.  She's the first Dem I can remember, in recent years, that gets/got the Repubs all in a kerfluffle.  And she did that because she was able to shape the message in a way that scared (scares?) the ever loving shit out of them.

You're seeing that more and more with the freshman Dems, and I suggest a big part of that is they are younger than any freshman legislative class in the modern era.  They know social media and they know messaging...it's what they've grown up with.  So hopefully they can provide a little more influence on the older leadership group in the party.
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« Reply #2923 on: June 03, 2019, 04:42:21 PM »

As usual, you make compelling points! Say what you will about the freshman Dems in the house, but they know how to work messaging. It's also great to see at least Warren coming out with frequent specific policy stances. For that alone, I am being drawn to her. It also makes me fear the failure that a candidate with no message at all, like Biden or Klobuchar, could entail...

I honestly think it's a generational thing, with the Freshman Dems.  Say what you want about AOC, but her ability to drive a conversation, and deliver a message, is pretty impressive.  She's the first Dem I can remember, in recent years, that gets/got the Repubs all in a kerfluffle.  And she did that because she was able to shape the message in a way that scared (scares?) the ever loving shit out of them.

You're seeing that more and more with the freshman Dems, and I suggest a big part of that is they are younger than any freshman legislative class in the modern era.  They know social media and they know messaging...it's what they've grown up with.  So hopefully they can provide a little more influence on the older leadership group in the party.
Anyone that scares the shit out of the establishment politicians on either side and can push for real change is ok in my book.
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« Reply #2924 on: June 04, 2019, 08:40:41 AM »


Anyone that scares the shit out of the establishment politicians on either side and can push for real change is ok in my book.

To me, Trump represents your sentiment. Pisses off both sides and is pushing for real change.

Ill give Credit to AOC for bucking the system but I think her ideas are horrible. 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 08:45:52 AM by Senator Blutarsky » Logged

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« Reply #2925 on: June 04, 2019, 09:34:25 PM »


Anyone that scares the shit out of the establishment politicians on either side and can push for real change is ok in my book.

To me, Trump represents your sentiment. Pisses off both sides and is pushing for real change.

Ill give Credit to AOC for bucking the system but I think her ideas are horrible. 
What change? How's that swamp draining and complete transparency thing going he promised? Ordering subpoenaed witnesses not to comply is the exact opposite. It's witness tampering and obstruction last time i checked.
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« Reply #2926 on: June 05, 2019, 11:59:01 AM »

What change? How's that swamp draining and complete transparency thing going he promised? Ordering subpoenaed witnesses not to comply is the exact opposite. It's witness tampering and obstruction last time i checked.

Why tim....turning the country into an exact replica of the Trump Organization, with him as the king on top!  That's the change they can believe in!!!!! (whoops, wrong candidate)

He was a terrible businessman, with multiple bankruptcies, who's only real success was in branding, after conning people into believing his name had value.  And his daddy bailed him out at least a dozen times from bad business dealings, in addition to the bankruptcies.

His businesses were all overt demonstrations of cronyism and nepotism.

He had terrible moral fiber and questionable character.

He had a long term habit of using blackmail to "make deals". 

He had a long history of suing his way out of the money he owed people.

He bragged (in the 80's) that he was "mobbed up" and only backtracked when the mob got pissed off about his claims.

The Trump Organization, from top to bottom, IS THE SWAMP.  And he has fought with every inch of his being, since the 70's, transparency.  Every time he is swept up in litigation, he fights sharing every bit of information with the courts. Trump wouldn't know what transparency was if it snuck up behind him and transparently kicked him in the ass.

He has brought every bit of that smarminess, seediness, underhandedness, and terrible (and always short term) business sense to the presidency.

But, hey...he sure has brought about change!

Ignoring the rule of law, treating the presidency like a dictatorship/monarchy (and daring Congress and the courts to stop him), being the least transparent administration in the modern era (and that's something when you're including the Nixon administration in the conversation), and generally changing it all FOR THE WORSE.

But hey, if you're an anarchist.....you're getting exactly what you wanted. 

Ditto if you just want to swing from Trumps nuts because he has an R after his name and wears a red tie!

If you're a constitutionalist, or any sort of actual fan of what America is SUPPOSED to be....not so much.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 12:02:27 PM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #2927 on: June 05, 2019, 11:59:36 AM »


To me, Trump represents your sentiment. Pisses off both sides and is pushing for real change.

Ill give Credit to AOC for bucking the system but I think her ideas are horrible. 

I'm curious.

What SPECIFIC ideas of AOCs do you find so horrible?
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« Reply #2928 on: June 05, 2019, 03:30:13 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5vndTiR6t8

 nervous





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« Reply #2929 on: June 05, 2019, 04:43:42 PM »


I saw the whole thing. He didn't answer one question, not one.
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« Reply #2930 on: June 05, 2019, 08:03:47 PM »


Anyone that scares the shit out of the establishment politicians on either side and can push for real change is ok in my book.

To me, Trump represents your sentiment. Pisses off both sides and is pushing for real change.

Ill give Credit to AOC for bucking the system but I think her ideas are horrible. 
What change? How's that swamp draining and complete transparency thing going he promised? Ordering subpoenaed witnesses not to comply is the exact opposite. It's witness tampering and obstruction last time i checked.

Ok, Ill go further, here a few examples. ....

Immigration reform based on securing the border and revising the immigration system. It is not a manufactured crisis.

Trying to work with North Korea

Addressing trade issues with China and intellectual property theft.

Prison reform

Creating opportunity zones in inner cities

Not getting involved in unnecessary wars ( ie. Iraq, Libya)

The jury is still out regarding the success of these and other measures, but he is trying to work on things that past administrations were not able or willing to.







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« Reply #2931 on: June 05, 2019, 08:05:56 PM »


To me, Trump represents your sentiment. Pisses off both sides and is pushing for real change.

Ill give Credit to AOC for bucking the system but I think her ideas are horrible. 

I'm curious.

What SPECIFIC ideas of AOCs do you find so horrible?

Green     New     Deal      =      Bankruptcy on a national level.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 08:18:32 PM by Senator Blutarsky » Logged

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« Reply #2932 on: June 05, 2019, 09:58:00 PM »

Green     New     Deal      =      Bankruptcy on a national level.

Thanks.

That's what I figured you'd say.

And it demonstrates that you don't actually know what the Green New Deal is, nor what her ideas actually are.

You just know what the conservative media has fed you.

Since the Green New Deal isn't actually a package of legislation, but a legislative "goal"/initiative, it can't "cost" anything.  That's the spin the conservatives have tried to come up with, and it's exactly what I figured you would say.  Just like the article posted from the fake "Greenpeace founder" earlier in this thread.

The Green New Deal can't bankrupt anyone, or anything.  It can't cost anything, because of what it is.  It's an idea.  It's a commitment to trying (and I emphasize trying) to address climate change and some of the various ways we might do that.

It's not actual commitments to anything.  It's not like EPA standards.  It imposes NO requirements. It sets goals with no penalties (and she's said it shouldn't have any if we don't reach those goals). Its a way to get public funding to support private industry in trying to attain those goals.

Again, it would be good if you actually did a bit of research into what she's ACTUALLY said on this front, and not what you've been TOLD she's said.

I'm not AOCs biggest fan.  I respect her ability to message, and I actually think (like it did in Hawaii) the GND is a decent jumping off point for a climate focused set of legislative goals.  But there are other areas where our opinions depart (her recent tweets about eliminating solitary confinement are a good example of our departures). But, having said that, I've taken the time to figure out what her positions ARE vs what other people TELL ME they are. 

« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 10:13:00 PM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #2933 on: June 06, 2019, 02:33:30 AM »

Ok, Ill go further, here a few examples. ....

Immigration reform based on securing the border and revising the immigration system. It is not a manufactured crisis.

Trying to work with North Korea

Addressing trade issues with China and intellectual property theft.

Prison reform

Creating opportunity zones in inner cities

Not getting involved in unnecessary wars ( ie. Iraq, Libya)

The jury is still out regarding the success of these and other measures, but he is trying to work on things that past administrations were not able or willing to.

Trump had jack squat to do with the prison reform bill. And we are on the verge of going to war with Iran and intervening in Venezuela.

What are these supposed opportunity zones?
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« Reply #2934 on: June 06, 2019, 06:32:25 AM »

Ok, Ill go further, here a few examples. ....

Immigration reform based on securing the border and revising the immigration system. It is not a manufactured crisis.

Trying to work with North Korea

Addressing trade issues with China and intellectual property theft.

Prison reform

Creating opportunity zones in inner cities

Not getting involved in unnecessary wars ( ie. Iraq, Libya)

The jury is still out regarding the success of these and other measures, but he is trying to work on things that past administrations were not able or willing to.

Trump had jack squat to do with the prison reform bill. And we are on the verge of going to war with Iran and intervening in Venezuela.

What are these supposed opportunity zones?

Yeah, if those are the "changes" someone thinks Trump is striving for, he's failing miserably pretty much across the board. Prison reform being the singular exception.....and as you point out, his involvement in that legislation was minimal.  He deserves some credit, but.....one thing does not a successful administration make.

And, honestly, the immigration point is my case in point for the whole messaging thing.  It IS a manufactured crisis.  Statistics and data tell us it is.  It's Trumps rabble rouser, sure to get a rise out of his voters.

PS: Here's a good article from forbes on opportunity zones:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/morgansimon/2019/03/30/what-you-need-to-know-about-opportunity-zones/#666c89da6ae2

And another from Wapo:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/will-opportunity-zoneshelp-the-rich-the-poor-or-both/2019/01/04/2a1e153a-0fe1-11e9-8f0c-6f878a26288a_story.html?utm_term=.5c51f1423af8

In short, they are complete and utter bullshit. They are tax cuts. They are SUPPOSED to get companies to buy and build in depressed areas. They've been tried before in the 90's. And a) They don't work (because companies can't be bothered to invest their war chests) and b) when tax cuts LIKE THIS have been used, in the past, they tend to lead to gentrification, pushing lower income residents OUT, not providing better opportunities (job or housing) for them.  Essentially, even if they were used (and largely, they're not...they can be deal sweeteners but they don't actually "convince" investors), they get used in areas already seeing gentrification, and they're generally bad for existing residents in those areas.  No need to wonder on these....they will do zippo for those areas, simply by being what they are. They are, funnily enough, a Dem idea from the Biden camp which were then adopted and tweaked by Repubs for the Tax Cut bill.

Again, messaging.  They have a nice, inspiring name attached to a concept that is not helpful for those with low incomes or in affordable housing.
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« Reply #2935 on: June 07, 2019, 12:06:18 AM »

Ok, Ill go further, here a few examples. ....

Immigration reform based on securing the border and revising the immigration system. It is not a manufactured crisis.

Trying to work with North Korea

Addressing trade issues with China and intellectual property theft.

Prison reform

Creating opportunity zones in inner cities

Not getting involved in unnecessary wars ( ie. Iraq, Libya)

The jury is still out regarding the success of these and other measures, but he is trying to work on things that past administrations were not able or willing to.

Trump had jack squat to do with the prison reform bill. And we are on the verge of going to war with Iran and intervening in Venezuela.

What are these supposed opportunity zones?

Yeah, if those are the "changes" someone thinks Trump is striving for, he's failing miserably pretty much across the board. Prison reform being the singular exception.....and as you point out, his involvement in that legislation was minimal.  He deserves some credit, but.....one thing does not a successful administration make.

And, honestly, the immigration point is my case in point for the whole messaging thing.  It IS a manufactured crisis.  Statistics and data tell us it is.  It's Trumps rabble rouser, sure to get a rise out of his voters.

PS: Here's a good article from forbes on opportunity zones:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/morgansimon/2019/03/30/what-you-need-to-know-about-opportunity-zones/#666c89da6ae2

And another from Wapo:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/will-opportunity-zoneshelp-the-rich-the-poor-or-both/2019/01/04/2a1e153a-0fe1-11e9-8f0c-6f878a26288a_story.html?utm_term=.5c51f1423af8

In short, they are complete and utter bullshit. They are tax cuts. They are SUPPOSED to get companies to buy and build in depressed areas. They've been tried before in the 90's. And a) They don't work (because companies can't be bothered to invest their war chests) and b) when tax cuts LIKE THIS have been used, in the past, they tend to lead to gentrification, pushing lower income residents OUT, not providing better opportunities (job or housing) for them.  Essentially, even if they were used (and largely, they're not...they can be deal sweeteners but they don't actually "convince" investors), they get used in areas already seeing gentrification, and they're generally bad for existing residents in those areas.  No need to wonder on these....they will do zippo for those areas, simply by being what they are. They are, funnily enough, a Dem idea from the Biden camp which were then adopted and tweaked by Repubs for the Tax Cut bill.

Again, messaging.  They have a nice, inspiring name attached to a concept that is not helpful for those with low incomes or in affordable housing.

As always, any time something seemingly positive or reasonable comes from the GOP, once you scratch under the surface, it's the same old grift.
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« Reply #2936 on: June 07, 2019, 08:47:16 AM »

Jobs report out.

Job growth missed targets by 100k (75k total adds).

But the big takeaway, in a trend I pointed out last month, both March and April took BIG revisions down (75k, total). April was revised down somewhere north of 15%.  March was revised down north of 18%.  That's been the trend this year.  Good numbers when they come out, then big revisions down later.  March now missed targets.  April still exceeded them, but not by NEARLY as much (just under half as much).

Job growth is essentially flat this year, and down year over year.  Wage growth is down, year over year. On the plus side, unemployment is steady.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 09:25:09 AM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #2937 on: June 07, 2019, 04:59:49 PM »

So apparently our fearless leader thinks Mars is part of the moon Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2938 on: June 08, 2019, 12:11:40 AM »

Jobs report out.

Job growth missed targets by 100k (75k total adds).

But the big takeaway, in a trend I pointed out last month, both March and April took BIG revisions down (75k, total). April was revised down somewhere north of 15%.  March was revised down north of 18%.  That's been the trend this year.  Good numbers when they come out, then big revisions down later.  March now missed targets.  April still exceeded them, but not by NEARLY as much (just under half as much).

Job growth is essentially flat this year, and down year over year.  Wage growth is down, year over year. On the plus side, unemployment is steady.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

And wage growth is the real critical issue here. Because it's stagnated for decades now as the top earners have eaten up all of the gains. And then you have the rise of gig employment, temp jobs, adjunct teachers and so on which even further reduce wages in real terms when you factor in lost benefits. The rigging of the game behind the scenes continues unperturbed.
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« Reply #2939 on: June 08, 2019, 04:26:39 PM »

I think this is dangerous territory. This is not the way to treat a friend. Its not the way to deal with immigration. It's not the way to meet the humanitarian needs at the border." Pelosi, 6/5/19

I would like to thank the President of Mexico, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, and his foreign minister, Marcelo Ebrard, together with all of the many representatives of both the United States and Mexico, for working so long and hard to get our agreement on immigration completed! President Trump, 6/8/19
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 04:54:38 PM by sandman » Logged

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