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Author Topic: Donald Trump & 2016 Election  (Read 136358 times)
pilferk
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« Reply #3000 on: June 29, 2019, 11:56:57 AM »

Tim,

The one thing I wanted to add (and this is notable for BOTH Obama and Trumps administrations):

In most recoveries post recession, once we hit "full employment" (which happened at the tail end of Obama's presidency and has been true throughout Trumps), we've seen significant wage growth, for the middle class, especially.

We haven't seen that, this time. Not really.  And wage growth, for the longest time, was barely keeping up with (and often lagging behind) inflation.  Even now, it's not really outpacing inflation by THAT much. 

So things got better for those at the top (again) but those in the middle are, adjusted for inflation, making what they were 20+ years ago. Or longer.

Corporations are being VERY slow to use those tax breaks to raise wages, and scarcity of potential employees isn't forcing wages up either.  It's the thing this recovery has really lacked.....and no Republican seems to want to address.  Trickle down, once again, not working.

Did you catch the interview i mentioned in my previous post BTW?

Not yet. Gonna try tomorrow. Friday and today are a little nuts!!
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« Reply #3001 on: June 29, 2019, 10:08:48 PM »

Tim,

The one thing I wanted to add (and this is notable for BOTH Obama and Trumps administrations):

In most recoveries post recession, once we hit "full employment" (which happened at the tail end of Obama's presidency and has been true throughout Trumps), we've seen significant wage growth, for the middle class, especially.

We haven't seen that, this time. Not really.  And wage growth, for the longest time, was barely keeping up with (and often lagging behind) inflation.  Even now, it's not really outpacing inflation by THAT much. 

So things got better for those at the top (again) but those in the middle are, adjusted for inflation, making what they were 20+ years ago. Or longer.

Corporations are being VERY slow to use those tax breaks to raise wages, and scarcity of potential employees isn't forcing wages up either.  It's the thing this recovery has really lacked.....and no Republican seems to want to address.  Trickle down, once again, not working.

Did you catch the interview i mentioned in my previous post BTW?

Not yet. Gonna try tomorrow. Friday and today are a little nuts!!
Oh ok, it eye opening and shocking.
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« Reply #3002 on: July 03, 2019, 02:09:23 AM »

So it seems our fearless leader in an interview tonight appeared to claim homelessness only became a problem 2 years ago.
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pilferk
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« Reply #3003 on: July 03, 2019, 09:45:09 AM »


Oh ok, it eye opening and shocking.

Just finished watching it.

Eye opening, yes.

Shocking? Nope.  Pretty much as bad as I expected it to be.  A completely unorganized bundle of chaotic disorganization with no real direction that basically turned into an epic fail.  That's Trump, in a nutshell. Always has been. Always will be.

"I have good instincts" means "fly by the seat of my pants and pray it all works out".  It's reflected not just in his actions, but in the people he surrounds himself with, and the "results" he gets.

The administration is, was, and always will be a complete fucking mess.
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« Reply #3004 on: July 03, 2019, 09:52:54 AM »

So it seems our fearless leader in an interview tonight appeared to claim homelessness only became a problem 2 years ago.

Just about everything he said in that interview, and in previous interviews, is completely factually inaccurate and, in many cases, outright lies.

Another instance of the President espousing right wing conspiracy, Fox News propaganda, and completely made up information rather than facts.

We get closer and closer to an Idiocracy every freaking day.
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« Reply #3005 on: July 03, 2019, 09:56:06 AM »

Another big loss for Trump and his supporters:

NO citizenship question on the census.

I suppose now they've been given carte blanche to gerrymand with impunity, it's LESS important now than it was...but it's still a huge loss for this administration.  They will NOT be able to shape this census AND they will be long gone before the next one!

Edit: And now Donnie Trainwreck has tweeted that the fight will go on.

EXCEPT...it can't.  The Dept of Commerce has sent out notification that the census forms are to be printed (yesterday).

DOJ reps have notified plantifs in the suit (and we have actual, corroborated, officially official copies of the emails doing so) they will not be pursuing adding the question to the form.

If they change gears, now, they will be reprimanded by the court.  And the current SC order stands (and will continue to stand) based on those notifications.

Donnie looks like he's sundowning, again.  Somebody get him is meds and a Happy Meal!!! STAT!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 11:34:14 AM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #3006 on: July 03, 2019, 02:03:26 PM »

How do you guys feel about now basically having a "royal family"?

Diplomats and politicians have been replaced by family.



/jarmo
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« Reply #3007 on: July 03, 2019, 08:04:17 PM »

How do you guys feel about now basically having a "royal family"?

Diplomats and politicians have been replaced by family.



/jarmo


It's stupid, and it sucks.  The US is not a monarchy.  And the president shouldn't think he's king (or above the law...or the constitution).  His current "president forever" bent just proves, yet again, how unfit he is to lead this country.
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« Reply #3008 on: July 03, 2019, 09:52:52 PM »


Oh ok, it eye opening and shocking.

Just finished watching it.

Eye opening, yes.

Shocking? Nope.  Pretty much as bad as I expected it to be.  A completely unorganized bundle of chaotic disorganization with no real direction that basically turned into an epic fail.  That's Trump, in a nutshell. Always has been. Always will be.

"I have good instincts" means "fly by the seat of my pants and pray it all works out".  It's reflected not just in his actions, but in the people he surrounds himself with, and the "results" he gets.

The administration is, was, and always will be a complete fucking mess.

I mean, when you finish watching it and think about it for a few minutes, you realize interns were vetting important administration posts. If that doesn't scare you, you're too far down the Trump rabbit hole to be helped.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 12:42:52 AM by tim_m » Logged
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« Reply #3009 on: July 03, 2019, 09:53:46 PM »

Another big loss for Trump and his supporters:

NO citizenship question on the census.

I suppose now they've been given carte blanche to gerrymand with impunity, it's LESS important now than it was...but it's still a huge loss for this administration.  They will NOT be able to shape this census AND they will be long gone before the next one!

Edit: And now Donnie Trainwreck has tweeted that the fight will go on.

EXCEPT...it can't.  The Dept of Commerce has sent out notification that the census forms are to be printed (yesterday).

DOJ reps have notified plantifs in the suit (and we have actual, corroborated, officially official copies of the emails doing so) they will not be pursuing adding the question to the form.

If they change gears, now, they will be reprimanded by the court.  And the current SC order stands (and will continue to stand) based on those notifications.

Donnie looks like he's sundowning, again.  Somebody get him is meds and a Happy Meal!!! STAT!

It's a completely useless question, not all non citizens are undocumented.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 12:43:33 AM by tim_m » Logged
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« Reply #3010 on: July 04, 2019, 02:26:56 AM »

Another big loss for Trump and his supporters:

NO citizenship question on the census.

I suppose now they've been given carte blanche to gerrymand with impunity, it's LESS important now than it was...but it's still a huge loss for this administration.  They will NOT be able to shape this census AND they will be long gone before the next one!

Edit: And now Donnie Trainwreck has tweeted that the fight will go on.

EXCEPT...it can't.  The Dept of Commerce has sent out notification that the census forms are to be printed (yesterday).

DOJ reps have notified plantifs in the suit (and we have actual, corroborated, officially official copies of the emails doing so) they will not be pursuing adding the question to the form.

If they change gears, now, they will be reprimanded by the court.  And the current SC order stands (and will continue to stand) based on those notifications.

Donnie looks like he's sundowning, again.  Somebody get him is meds and a Happy Meal!!! STAT!

It's a completely useless question, not all non citizens are undocumented.

It's especially disquieting when you consider the fact that we have concentration camps for immigrants right now. Remember, they never told the German public what their true intentions were with those camps. The idea that we have to wait until somebody either openly admits they are going to kill people, or until they actually start killing people to call them out or draw historical parallels is incredibly naive and will in fact only enable such things to happen again by hushing criticism of those who would seek to do the same.
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« Reply #3011 on: July 04, 2019, 09:15:48 AM »

Another big loss for Trump and his supporters:

NO citizenship question on the census.

I suppose now they've been given carte blanche to gerrymand with impunity, it's LESS important now than it was...but it's still a huge loss for this administration.  They will NOT be able to shape this census AND they will be long gone before the next one!

Edit: And now Donnie Trainwreck has tweeted that the fight will go on.

EXCEPT...it can't.  The Dept of Commerce has sent out notification that the census forms are to be printed (yesterday).

DOJ reps have notified plantifs in the suit (and we have actual, corroborated, officially official copies of the emails doing so) they will not be pursuing adding the question to the form.

If they change gears, now, they will be reprimanded by the court.  And the current SC order stands (and will continue to stand) based on those notifications.

Donnie looks like he's sundowning, again.  Somebody get him is meds and a Happy Meal!!! STAT!

It's a completely useless question, not all non citizens are undocumented.

In years past, it was on the census & It actually is a useful question.

https://www.census.gov/acs/www/about/why-we-ask-each-question/citizenship/

Place of Birth, Citizenship, Year of Entry

We ask questions about a personís place of birth, citizenship, and year of entry into the United States to create data about citizens, noncitizens, and the foreign-born population.

Agencies and policymakers use our published statistics to set and evaluate immigration policies and laws, understand the experience of different immigrant groups, and enforce laws, policies, and regulations against discrimination based on national origin. These statistics also help tailor services to accommodate cultural differences.





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« Reply #3012 on: July 04, 2019, 09:34:25 AM »

Another big loss for Trump and his supporters:

NO citizenship question on the census.

I suppose now they've been given carte blanche to gerrymand with impunity, it's LESS important now than it was...but it's still a huge loss for this administration.  They will NOT be able to shape this census AND they will be long gone before the next one!

Edit: And now Donnie Trainwreck has tweeted that the fight will go on.

EXCEPT...it can't.  The Dept of Commerce has sent out notification that the census forms are to be printed (yesterday).

DOJ reps have notified plantifs in the suit (and we have actual, corroborated, officially official copies of the emails doing so) they will not be pursuing adding the question to the form.

If they change gears, now, they will be reprimanded by the court.  And the current SC order stands (and will continue to stand) based on those notifications.

Donnie looks like he's sundowning, again.  Somebody get him is meds and a Happy Meal!!! STAT!

It's a completely useless question, not all non citizens are undocumented.

It's especially disquieting when you consider the fact that we have concentration camps for immigrants right now. Remember, they never told the German public what their true intentions were with those camps. The idea that we have to wait until somebody either openly admits they are going to kill people, or until they actually start killing people to call them out or draw historical parallels is incredibly naive and will in fact only enable such things to happen again by hushing criticism of those who would seek to do the same.

There is no parallel between the Nazi concentration camps and the detention centers at the southern border.  You should study your history. 
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« Reply #3013 on: July 04, 2019, 10:30:23 AM »

Happy Independence Day everyone!!!

What a time to celebrate this incredible nation!


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« Reply #3014 on: July 04, 2019, 10:55:35 AM »


In years past, it was on the census & It actually is a useful question.

https://www.census.gov/acs/www/about/why-we-ask-each-question/citizenship/

Place of Birth, Citizenship, Year of Entry

We ask questions about a personís place of birth, citizenship, and year of entry into the United States to create data about citizens, noncitizens, and the foreign-born population.

Agencies and policymakers use our published statistics to set and evaluate immigration policies and laws, understand the experience of different immigrant groups, and enforce laws, policies, and regulations against discrimination based on national origin. These statistics also help tailor services to accommodate cultural differences.


In years past...aka 1950.  That's the last time it appeared on the mandatory census form.

So, your support for the question is that we should return to the values, judgments, and mode of operation of  1950?  Wives shouldn't work, equal rights should be abolished, and intolerance of all types should be celebrated and accepted? I guess now we know what conservatives mean by "Make America Great (aka White) Again"!! Yikes!!

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/27/597436512/fact-check-has-citizenship-been-a-standard-census-question

Much of what you (and, hey....once again...the conservative news media...how about that?) cite above refers to the NON MANDATORY (and less widely distributed, in many cases) long form survey that has been sent out with (but not in replacement of) the ACTUAL census form.  The American Community Survey (ACS) is NOT the census.  It has been, in the past, at times been distributed WITH the census. But even that wasn't the case in 2010. Your reference is irrelevant.....and it demonstrates you (and Trump and the conservative news media) are not exactly clear on the issue, quite frankly.

The only way it is "meaningful" is to fuel deportations, or to try to reduce resident counts in larger states, to give more power (and resources) to the lighter populaced red states. 

THE PEOPLE WHO PUT THE QUESTION ON THIS VERSION OF THE CENSUS ADMITTED THAT WAS WHY IT WAS BEING PUT THERE!!!

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/06/hofeller-census-citizenship-trump-christa-jones.html

Again, I'd suggest you actually find, and read Hofeller's report (it's pretty readily available).

You can't rationalize this one.  The administration has been caught red handed, so to speak.  The question has one purpose: To discourage non-citizens from filling out the census, and to repress counts in states that have high immigrant populations.  So says Hofeller, the RNC, and the administration (in their leaked communications, and in the subpeoned documents).  That's why the SC ruled against them.
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« Reply #3015 on: July 04, 2019, 11:20:32 AM »


In years past, it was on the census & It actually is a useful question.

https://www.census.gov/acs/www/about/why-we-ask-each-question/citizenship/

Place of Birth, Citizenship, Year of Entry

We ask questions about a personís place of birth, citizenship, and year of entry into the United States to create data about citizens, noncitizens, and the foreign-born population.

Agencies and policymakers use our published statistics to set and evaluate immigration policies and laws, understand the experience of different immigrant groups, and enforce laws, policies, and regulations against discrimination based on national origin. These statistics also help tailor services to accommodate cultural differences.


In years past...aka 1950.  That's the last time it appeared on the mandatory census form.

So, your support for the question is that we should return to the values, judgments, and mode of operation of  1950?  Wives shouldn't work, equal rights should be abolished, and intolerance of all types should be celebrated and accepted? I guess now we know what conservatives mean by "Make America Great (aka White) Again"!! Yikes!!

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/27/597436512/fact-check-has-citizenship-been-a-standard-census-question

Much of what you (and, hey....once again...the conservative news media...how about that?) cite above refers to the NON MANDATORY (and less widely distributed, in many cases) long form survey that has been sent out with (but not in replacement of) the ACTUAL census form.  The American Community Survey (ACS) is NOT the census.  It has been, in the past, at times been distributed WITH the census. But even that wasn't the case in 2010. Your reference is irrelevant.....and it demonstrates you (and Trump and the conservative news media) are not exactly clear on the issue, quite frankly.

The only way it is "meaningful" is to fuel deportations, or to try to reduce resident counts in larger states, to give more power (and resources) to the lighter populaced red states. 

THE PEOPLE WHO PUT THE QUESTION ON THIS VERSION OF THE CENSUS ADMITTED THAT WAS WHY IT WAS BEING PUT THERE!!!

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/06/hofeller-census-citizenship-trump-christa-jones.html

Again, I'd suggest you actually find, and read Hofeller's report (it's pretty readily available).

You can't rationalize this one.  The administration has been caught red handed, so to speak.  The question has one purpose: To discourage non-citizens from filling out the census, and to repress counts in states that have high immigrant populations.  So says Hofeller, the RNC, and the administration (in their leaked communications, and in the subpoenaed documents).  That's why the SC ruled against them.


Here are a couple  meaningful reasons for it-

How do we determine representation in government? By how many citizens we have. Take the fact that we base the amount of US house representatives of a given state based on their population. These house members represent the citizens in their districts.  CITIZENS !

Also, it is a pretty valuable piece of info when researching one's genealogy.

Neither of these examples have anything to do with 1950's societal values, but by all means keep on telling me what my thoughts are in case I forget and need to be reminded.

Trump fucked up on his argument for it.  I could have made a better case for it.
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« Reply #3016 on: July 04, 2019, 11:28:26 AM »

Happy Independence Day!



 
 
 
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« Reply #3017 on: July 04, 2019, 11:42:43 AM »

Here are a couple  meaningful reasons for it-

How do we determine representation in government? By how many citizens we have. Take the fact that we base the amount of US house representatives of a given state based on their population. These house members represent the citizens in their districts.  CITIZENS !


Wrong.  Read the Constitution.  It says NUMBERS, as in population. Not number of citizens.  Number of people residing, at the time of the census. Citizenship has NOTHING to do with it. Says so right there, in the forefathers handwriting.

Quote
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct.

Not citizens.

Non-citizens are not allowed to vote....that bit is right.  But representation is based wholly on population.  Why, you ask? Because slaves, indians who payed taxes (who were not considered citizens), and noncitizens were considered partial people in the original census count away back then.  No amendment (not even the 14th) has changed the "numbers" language....only the "partial people" bit.

In other words, the 14th amendment actually DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS your point.

Maybe you should reread the constitution, while you're at it?

Quote
Also, it is a pretty valuable piece of info when researching one's genealogy.

Which is irrelevant when it comes to a government survey meant to count people for government purposes and representation.

In the 1800s, this might have been true.

In the 1950's, maybe partially true.

Today?  We have more than enough alternate (and govt supported) surveys (like the ACS) that can take this on.  And they are VOLUNTARY.

Quote
Neither of these examples have anything to do with 1950's societal values, but by all means keep on telling me what my thoughts are in case I forget and need to be reminded.

Then stop using 1950's logic to support your argument.

Quote
Trump fucked up on his argument for it.  I could have made a better case for it.

You're not doing much better, so far......
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 11:46:37 AM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #3018 on: July 04, 2019, 01:49:32 PM »

 Ok, I stand corrected on the Numbers vs citizens part.  But the issue still remains that when you count illegal aliens, students from abroad and guest workers it does distort representation.
 


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« Reply #3019 on: July 04, 2019, 02:10:09 PM »

Ok, I stand corrected on the Numbers vs citizens part.  But the issue still remains that when you count illegal aliens, students from abroad and guest workers it does distort representation.


Irrelevant to a citizenship question and incorrect. If the forefathers wanted representation to be based on counts of citizen, they would have made it so.  They installed a different (and some would say more powerful) mechanism for citizens to influence representation: Their vote. The Constitution says all people are supposed to be counted, if they are residents of a State. Period.  To say it "distorts representation" is to call into question, and promote the undermining of, the Constitution.  You know, that thing Trump swore to uphold (and not just the parts he finds convenient)? A citizenship question represses non-citizen responses, would have a negative effect on counts, and thus circumvent what the census is for. 

I harken back to a similar argument a few pages ago, and would point out it's likely you think it "distorts represenation" because, when it comes down to brass tacks, based on pure population of the USA, there are just less conservatives. Your argument, now, distills down to "I don't like the people being counted, because they aren't like me."  If everyone is fairly counted (as the Constitution lays out)....things don't go so well for Republicans.  The blue states get more reps and the red states get fewer.

But the thing is: That's not distortion.  Its working as intended/written.  If you are an actual, principled, strict constructionist (as most conservatives claim to be) when it comes to the Constitution.....there is literally no argument here.

It's pretty obvious non-citizens are not going to respond if there is a citizenship question, in fear of what that citizenship question will be used for (deportations, for example). AND THATS THE STATED INTENT FOR THE QUESTION BY THIS ADMINISTRATION. That's it. End of argument.  That reasoning specifically undermines the constitution...and thus, it's a bad idea to add it to the official census.  There is no good reason (aka your geneology reason) that is good enough to overcome that singularly BAD one.

If your point (now) is you'd like to see an amendment changing what the constitution says, I say good fucking luck.  You'll never get 2/3rds of the states to vote for it (because quite frankly, a lot of people in a lot of states would consider it xenophobic and a return to the 3/5ths compromise).  And, RIGHT NOW, the constitution says numbers and refers to population.

But that wasn't what we were talking about, anyway. Its an attempt to start a different discussion, because this one's not going so well for you.  We were talking about a citizenship question on the actual census.

Which, again, is a terrible idea.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 02:37:46 PM by pilferk » Logged

Together again,
Gee, it's good to be together again,
I just can't imagine that you've ever been gone
It's not starting over, it's just going on
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