The Biden administration (was: The NEW 2020 Election Thread)

[PermissionToLand]

And now we have Trump using the FBI as his gestapo in Portland in unmarked vans snatching peaceful protesters, but tell me again how the left is the radical socialists marxists.

If they really were peaceful protests there would be no problem but that isn't what is happening.

From last weekend-

Fires set, fences moved: Police declare Portland protest a riot
https://ktvz.com/news/crime-courts/2020/07/18/oregon-officials-decry-federal-agents-after-protest-clashes/

"If the jews would just stop commuting so much crime, there would be no problem" - Nazis

When your only response to a government overstepping its power limits and violating its own peoples' rights is to hand-wavingly victim blame, you need to re-evaluate your life.

The DHS Secretary himself could only produce graffiti - fucking graffiti - as his best excuse for having federal jackbooted thugs assaulting and kidnapping American citizens. Where the fuck is your patriotism? Where the fuck is your duty to your fellow countrymen? Where the fuck is your concern for government tyranny?

It's also a fact that the Trump administration is committing a crime by violating the Constitution, as are the PPB for disobeying state and city orders to stand down. So by your own pathetic, weaselly logic, those cops and feds should be violently assaulted and detained for their crimes. Because according to you, being suspected of any crime whatsoever waives your rights. No, that isn't how America works. If you have a problem with the core values and liberties that this country was FOUNDED ON, you can get the hell out. We respect civil liberties in this country. Authoritarians, Nationalists and Fascists do not believe in civil liberties, natural rights or democracy. They are fundamentally opposed to what America stands for.

[PermissionToLand]

Body found in Minneapolis pawnshop that was torched in George Floyd protests 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox9.com/news/body-found-in-wreckage-of-minneapolis-pawn-shop-that-burned-during-riots.amp

As always, you just ignore anyone who calls out your lies and continue pushing the latest propaganda. No honor.

And thanks for proving me right that you will just take any death that occurs during the protests and blame it on BLM. There is nothing in either of those articles that links him to BLM. Shameless schysterism...

[PermissionToLand]

Property destruction is not peaceful.

You cannot possibly be this ignorant of use of force standards. Police are only authorized to use force if you are threatening harm to someone. Moving a fence does not justify obliterating a Veteran's hand and pepper spraying him for just standing there.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/us/portland-protests-navy-christopher-david.html

You cannot commit violence against a toaster. Property damage does not excuse human rights violations.

And this has nothing to do with George Floyd.

I love how the rightists can't get their story straight. When somebody gets hurt or burns a store, it reflects on BLM and the protesters, but when you need to virtue signal to prove you aren't pro-extrajudicial murder, these people have nothing to do with the protests!

But yeah, a single guy burning a store in Minneapolis (who has been apprehended) justifies feds in Portland kidnapping random people.

Two DHS Officials Just Admitted Their Troops Have Been Violating the Constitution

https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/two-dhs-officials-apparently-just-admitted-their-troops-have-been-violating-the-constitution/

"we are having to go out and proactively arrest individuals"

"Anticipatory arrests, of course, are prohibited under the U.S. Constitution."

Government tyranny always comes from the side screaming the loudest about the other side being tyrannical as a misdirection. Just as every Fascist regime runs on a platform of "anti-corruption".

[tim_m]

Body found in Minneapolis pawnshop that was torched in George Floyd protests 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox9.com/news/body-found-in-wreckage-of-minneapolis-pawn-shop-that-burned-during-riots.amp

That's awful but how does that prove anything you've said? We have no idea who did and neither do the police.

https://www.fox9.com/news/charges-rochester-man-burned-down-minneapolis-pawn-shop-during-riots

Ok good they found the guy who did it and arrested him.

[pilferk]

Body found in Minneapolis pawnshop that was torched in George Floyd protests  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox9.com/news/body-found-in-wreckage-of-minneapolis-pawn-shop-that-burned-during-riots.amp

That's awful but how does that prove anything you've said? We have no idea who did and neither do the police.

https://www.fox9.com/news/charges-rochester-man-burned-down-minneapolis-pawn-shop-during-riots

Ok good they found the guy who did it and arrested him.

FYI: They found the guy who burned the place down some time ago  (almost 6 weeks ago-ish?).

He may, or may not, be responsible for the person's demise who's body was found.  No cause of death, yet.  ASSUMING they died in the fire, before that happens, is exactly that: An assumption.  All they know right now is there was thermal damage to the body....NOT that the fire caused the persons' death.  We'll know more when the ME is done with the autopsy. Til then.....like I said, assumptions.

If the guy they have in custody turns out to be responsible, he should be prosecuted....using the DEFINED justice system....to the fullest extent of the law.

But there's a number of possibilities here.  It'll be interesting to see how this case plays out.

Whats interesting? The owner/manager, his family, and all employees are reportedly accounted for. No one was reported missing, at least.  And it took the police (based on a tip) over a month to re-investigate the wreckage to find the body.  And the store was closed at the time of the fire.  Some odd aspects to this case.

Still...one person's criminal act doesn't define thousands of others actions.  Much as the right would like to paint it that way.....for the protesters.  For the cops, a completely different story. Hypocrisy much?

It's funny how the right's response to suggesting police reform has always been "there's few bad ones that need to be taken care of but most of them are good people" (a sentiment I agree with...there just needs to be accountability in the system to better help weed out "the bad ones"...and changes in the WAY we police so the "bad ones" don't have as much influence and effect in their interactions..but that's another discussion) is applied to the cops....but not the protesters advocating for reform, eh? I'd venture those "good cops" have a lot more influence on the actions of the "bad cops" (via union protection and "the silence of the brotherhood") than the protesters do on those committing possible atrocities like the one being discussed here.  But the right doesn't want to talk about that....because it seems like the right don't ACTUALLY want to confront the issue of systemic racism, or address George Floyd's (and others like him) death.  It seems more like they just want a boogie man on the other side to point to, so they can feel better about ignoring it.

[sandman]

Body found in Minneapolis pawnshop that was torched in George Floyd protests 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox9.com/news/body-found-in-wreckage-of-minneapolis-pawn-shop-that-burned-during-riots.amp

That's awful but how does that prove anything you've said? We have no idea who did and neither do the police.

https://www.fox9.com/news/charges-rochester-man-burned-down-minneapolis-pawn-shop-during-riots

Ok good they found the guy who did it and arrested him.

Yes, and there is evidence he burned to death. The scum that set fire will be charged with murder if the cause of death is related to the fire.

Would we call setting a fire to a store in your community “peaceful”?

[sandman]

Quote from the Dem mayor of Portland in late May:

"It no longer feels like sincere mourning for the death of George Floyd and many other black men and women in our country. This behavior that we've seen for the second night is blatant lawlessness and selfish violence," Wheeler said during a press conference Sunday morning. He said that peaceful protests have been "co-opted by rioters and looters to use the moral soul of this movement as a cover to destroy our communities."

[pilferk]

An interesting read. Federal agents even tear gassed the mayor of Portland, who was standing with PEACEFUL protesters (who spent a lot of time heckling him) yesterday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/23/ted-wheeler-portland-tear-gas/

[Dr. Blutarsky]

An interesting read. Federal agents even tear gassed the mayor of Portland, who was standing with PEACEFUL protesters (who spent a lot of time heckling him) yesterday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/23/ted-wheeler-portland-tear-gas/

 WAPO conveniently started the story with " Mayor Ted Wheeler choked on tear gas...." and never went into any detail on what led up to that.  Throwing things and starting fires isn't peaceful.

Here is a report on the same situation from a local news source.

Portland police declare riot downtown following ‘violent conduct’

PORTLAND, OR (KPTV) – Once again, demonstrators took to the streets of downtown Portland Wednesday night to demand change in policing and racial injustice.

More than a thousand people gathered downtown outside the Justice Center and Federal Courthouse. Protests in Portland have be ongoing since late May following the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

Around 9:15 p.m., Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler appeared and addressed the crowd. He held a listening session with protesters asking him questions. "I think it's important for me as the mayor and the police commissioner to be out here where people are demonstrating here are their concerns, not only about the federal government, but also about our local,” Wheeler said.

After over an hour with the crowd, which included him getting tear gassed by federal officers, Wheeler left the demonstration.

Portland police said soon after Wheeler’s presence, some protesters began throwing flares and other incendiaries over the fence along the west side of the Federal Courthouse.

Over the next 45 minutes, the group continued to throw flammable material as well as incendiary devices over the fence, eventually starting a large fire.

Police said others breached the fence or kicked and shook the fence. Federal officers exited the courthouse to disperse the crowd.

By 12:24 a.m. Thursday, police said “a large animated group remained at the fence surrounding the Federal Courthouse.”

One protester “disregarded the fence and encroached through the portico to a door of the Federal Courthouse.” They then threw an item on fire into the courthouse, police said.

After that act, federal officers came out to address the crowd.

Just after 12:30 a.m., Portland police declared a riot “due to the violent conduct of the large group creating a grave risk of public alarm.” With the PPB sound truck, officers told protesters to leave the area, but police said most the group did not.

According to police, after the riot was declared, people remained outside the Federal Courthouse for several hours.

During the early morning hours, police said Molotov Cocktails were thrown at the federal building, along with hundreds of projectiles.

Meanwhile, multiple fires were lit in the area surrounding the courthouse, which included heavily wooded areas in the parks and trash receptacles on neighboring blocks.

Police said multiple vandalisms occurred, including fire hydrants that were opened, which wasted several hundred gallons of water into the street.

At least one assault was reported, police said.

After a while, protesters dispersed from downtown.

Police said the only time PPB officers were present in the overnight demonstrations was when they declared the riot and used the sound truck.

PPB said its officers didn’t engage with protesters otherwise and did not deploy any tear gas.

No arrests in connection with the protest were made by Portland police.

Federal officers arrested six people. Five currently face charges and the sixth is pending further investigation.

The five who have been charged were all arrested on the same charge: failure to comply with a lawful order.

Those arrested were identified as:

    Joseph Lagalo, age 37
    Bailey Dreibelbis, age 22
    Nicholas Kloiber, age 26
    David Hazan, age 24
    Hailey Holden, age 30

The five are all believed to be local residents and will make their first appearances in federal court at 1:30 p.m. Thursday.

Copyright 2020 KPTV-KPDX Broadcasting Corporation. All rights reserved.

https://www.kptv.com/news/portland-police-declare-riot-downtown-following-violent-conduct/article_9753b3d8-ccd9-11ea-aad7-b734daef1bdb.html
 

[pilferk]

An interesting read. Federal agents even tear gassed the mayor of Portland, who was standing with PEACEFUL protesters (who spent a lot of time heckling him) yesterday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/23/ted-wheeler-portland-tear-gas/

 WAPO conveniently started the story with " Mayor Ted Wheeler choked on tear gas...." and never went into any detail on what led up to that.  Throwing things and starting fires isn't peaceful.

Here is a report on the same situation from a local news source.

Portland police declare riot downtown following ‘violent conduct’

PORTLAND, OR (KPTV) – Once again, demonstrators took to the streets of downtown Portland Wednesday night to demand change in policing and racial injustice.

More than a thousand people gathered downtown outside the Justice Center and Federal Courthouse. Protests in Portland have be ongoing since late May following the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

Around 9:15 p.m., Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler appeared and addressed the crowd. He held a listening session with protesters asking him questions. "I think it's important for me as the mayor and the police commissioner to be out here where people are demonstrating here are their concerns, not only about the federal government, but also about our local,” Wheeler said.

After over an hour with the crowd, which included him getting tear gassed by federal officers, Wheeler left the demonstration.

Portland police said soon after Wheeler’s presence, some protesters began throwing flares and other incendiaries over the fence along the west side of the Federal Courthouse.

Over the next 45 minutes, the group continued to throw flammable material as well as incendiary devices over the fence, eventually starting a large fire.

Police said others breached the fence or kicked and shook the fence. Federal officers exited the courthouse to disperse the crowd.

By 12:24 a.m. Thursday, police said “a large animated group remained at the fence surrounding the Federal Courthouse.”

One protester “disregarded the fence and encroached through the portico to a door of the Federal Courthouse.” They then threw an item on fire into the courthouse, police said.

After that act, federal officers came out to address the crowd.

Just after 12:30 a.m., Portland police declared a riot “due to the violent conduct of the large group creating a grave risk of public alarm.” With the PPB sound truck, officers told protesters to leave the area, but police said most the group did not.

According to police, after the riot was declared, people remained outside the Federal Courthouse for several hours.

During the early morning hours, police said Molotov Cocktails were thrown at the federal building, along with hundreds of projectiles.

Meanwhile, multiple fires were lit in the area surrounding the courthouse, which included heavily wooded areas in the parks and trash receptacles on neighboring blocks.

Police said multiple vandalisms occurred, including fire hydrants that were opened, which wasted several hundred gallons of water into the street.

At least one assault was reported, police said.

After a while, protesters dispersed from downtown.

Police said the only time PPB officers were present in the overnight demonstrations was when they declared the riot and used the sound truck.

PPB said its officers didn’t engage with protesters otherwise and did not deploy any tear gas.

No arrests in connection with the protest were made by Portland police.

Federal officers arrested six people. Five currently face charges and the sixth is pending further investigation.

The five who have been charged were all arrested on the same charge: failure to comply with a lawful order.

Those arrested were identified as:

    Joseph Lagalo, age 37
    Bailey Dreibelbis, age 22
    Nicholas Kloiber, age 26
    David Hazan, age 24
    Hailey Holden, age 30

The five are all believed to be local residents and will make their first appearances in federal court at 1:30 p.m. Thursday.

Copyright 2020 KPTV-KPDX Broadcasting Corporation. All rights reserved.

https://www.kptv.com/news/portland-police-declare-riot-downtown-following-violent-conduct/article_9753b3d8-ccd9-11ea-aad7-b734daef1bdb.html
 

Yeah, KPTV...a FOX station.  Surprise, surprise, surprise.

In any event: You should reread your own article. Make careful note of the timeline laid out.  The mayor arrived at 9:15...and left after being gassed around 10:45-ish ("after being in the crowd for over an hour.")

Everything else mentioned occurred after that point ("after Wheelers presence"...and much of it closer to, and after, midnight, according to the article)....which is why it wasn't in the WAPO article.  It happened an hour and more after he left.

The crowd (some of them) started throwing flares and FIREWORKS (incendiary devices? Pfft), which caused a fire, AFTER the governor left....aka AFTER they were tear gassed.

UP TO THAT POINT (aka when the governor left), the protest had been LARGELY peaceful. And they got gassed anyway.

Again, you're making the point: The federal agents are acting outside typical force guidelines and INCITING the protesters. Without real jurisdiction or authorization to do so.

And you don't even realize it. Or you won't admit it. Or both.

More than a thousand people were there....5 were arrested.  That's largely peaceful.  And, again, property damage isn't violence.

You keep undermining your own points, and fail to address the questions/points made by others, and directed at you. Take a stab at those points that tim made yet? Ah, I didn't think so.....

Also note:
No arrests in connection with the protest were made by Portland police.

Portland Police who have said the protests have been LARGELY (I know you want to ignore this qualifier, but you're not gonna be able to) peaceful.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

It was from a local  Fox affiliate, not the big evil racist FOX NEWS. I knew you'd go there. 

Going after buildings with hammers and spray paint as well as setting fires isn't  peaceful.  WAPO left out that part.  Regardless of the timeline, it isn't justified.

 

[tim_m]

Neither is being gassed prior to those actions taking place. You do realize tear gas is a chemical weapon? It is banned for use in Warfare by the Geneva convention. So why is it ok to use on protesting American citizens without provocation?

[pilferk]

It was from a local  Fox affiliate, not the big evil racist FOX NEWS. I knew you'd go there.  

So, to be clear, it is 100% OK for you to take the piss out of WAPO because they're WAPO and you think they're biased.

It is 100% NOT OK for me to feign surprise that you would choose a source that is associated with Fox (local station or not). I'm 100% talking about the initials, not the content (which is pretty obvious since I go on to use the article to undermine your argument).  

That about right?

Thanks for proving my point, AGAIN.

As I pointed out: THE ARTICLE YOU POSTED undermines your point. And the difference between the two articles is: The WAPO article focused on the Governors interactions while the article you posted (misleadingly, IMHO) combined the "before and after" into one article.

First,largely peaceful protests.

THEN Tear Gas.

THEN Escalated misbehavior amounting to pretty minor misdemeanor actions from a very small number of the THOUSAND PLUS protesters.

Largely peaceful.

Going after buildings with hammers and spray paint as well as setting fires isn't  peaceful.  WAPO left out that part.  Regardless of the timeline, it isn't justified.
 

So, your opinion, as you are presenting it here, it is that minor civil disobedience, with little to no evidence of violence, warrants the use of overpowering, militaristic, force in retaliation, and directed toward a LARGELY peaceful crowd.  And, not ONLY that, but that they can deploy that force PREEMPTIVELY, while the protest is still peaceful.

You've basically laid out that you are for a fascist police state.

Man, when I insinuated your simping for this administration wasn't going to age well, I had no idea it would only take us a page to tease out just how AWFUL a take this is.

Also, nobody SET fires in this case.  They lobbed flares and fireworks which then resulted in ONE small fire. There is a difference, and a pretty considerable one, when considering the associated laws.

Chipping bricks/concrete and painting walls is still not violence.  Property damage is still not violence. Commeasurate force (legally and IMHO) isn't tear gas and beatings (especially not doled out BEFORE it happens).  Nor does it warrant gestapo style arrests consisting of picking up peaceful protesters by the dozens (if not hundreds) off the streets, and then interrogating, intimidating and harassing them.

No matter how much you want to bury your head in the sand, the protests are LARGELY peaceful and LARGELY non-violent. That you seem to think, based on what you've said here, the level of "response" is OK is....honestly....quite fucking scary.

5 arrests, 1 (possible) assault, 1000+ protesters. That's (at least) 99.5% peaceful and 99.9% non-violent.

Also "regardless of timeline"?  LOL! Seriously? That's like saying "Regardless of the overwhelming evidence, Ted Bundy is innocent".

You can't simply disregard that the timeline obliterates your point, showing that the escalated, mostly minor, vandalism occurred AFTER the protesters were tear gassed.  The force came before any bad behavior.

Federal agents were, again, escalating, inciting, and instigating that behavior.

Finally, I think we can now take your inability to address tim's points as just that: An inability.  

Which completes the story on your "argument" here:  You don't actually have a coherent one....

[pilferk]

Neither is being gassed prior to those actions taking place. You do realize tear gas is a chemical weapon? It is banned for use in Warfare by the Geneva convention. So why is it ok to use on protesting American citizens without provocation?

If you take his logic, and flip the script....all police officers should be preemptively fired, stripped of their pensions, and then interrogated about every action they've ever taken during their careers.

Tear gassed, man handled, and then wrongfully detained, intimidated, interrogated, and harassed.  For a largely peaceful protest. 

[pilferk]

It's also a fact that the Trump administration is committing a crime by violating the Constitution, as are the PPB for disobeying state and city orders to stand down. So by your own pathetic, weaselly logic, those cops and feds should be violently assaulted and detained for their crimes. Because according to you, being suspected of any crime whatsoever waives your rights. No, that isn't how America works. If you have a problem with the core values and liberties that this country was FOUNDED ON, you can get the hell out. We respect civil liberties in this country. Authoritarians, Nationalists and Fascists do not believe in civil liberties, natural rights or democracy. They are fundamentally opposed to what America stands for.

Worse than that, even. Given the argument being made, it's much, much worse.

The argument seems to be that if the federal agents even THINK you MIGHT commit a crime at some point in the future, they have the right to preventatively use weapons of war on you, beat you, and arrest you.  Because, as he says in further conversations "timeline doesn't matter".

Minority Report style law enforcement....and a complete undermine of the 1st amendment and the right to protest.

[pilferk]

Neither is being gassed prior to those actions taking place. You do realize tear gas is a chemical weapon? It is banned for use in Warfare by the Geneva convention. So why is it ok to use on protesting American citizens without provocation?

It is totally OK, and reasonable, for federal agents to use a chemical weapon on peaceful protestors who have not (yet) done anything wrong.

It is totally unreasonable and unfathomable for a small portion of those protesters to get pissed off and retaliate by chipping bricks/concrete and painting graffiti on the walls.   

[jarmo]

The police misuse their powers -> But most cops are good
Protests get violent -> These left wing protestors are violent people who steal, and need to be dealt with harder. They are terrorists.




/jarmo

[tim_m]

Neither is being gassed prior to those actions taking place. You do realize tear gas is a chemical weapon? It is banned for use in Warfare by the Geneva convention. So why is it ok to use on protesting American citizens without provocation?

It is totally OK, and reasonable, for federal agents to use a chemical weapon on peaceful protestors who have not (yet) done anything wrong.

It is totally unreasonable and unfathomable for a small portion of those protesters to get pissed off and retaliate by chipping bricks/concrete and painting graffiti on the walls.   

And the most important part of your statement, chemical weapon. This is a substance that is actually banned for use in actual warfare, but somehow legal on civilians? How is this allowed in the first place. It's banned by the Geneva convention. In the 90s further restrictions were put on its use but they worked out a compromise they it can be used by police on civilians. I mean what the what?

[pilferk]

The police misuse their powers -> But most cops are good
Protests get violent -> These left wing protestors are violent people who steal, and need to be dealt with harder. They are terrorists.




/jarmo

Yup, exactly this. Or pretty much.  Again, the protesters weren't really violent.  They were engaged in some minor vandalism resulting in property damage. But the point is the same.

It's all double standards and hypocrisy to justify the continued bad behavior of this administration, and it's TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE takes on just about everything. And, it seems to me, to avoid confronting the uncomfortable feelings the BLM movement instills in them.

Armed protesters essentially take over a capital building.....protesting 2nd amendment rights...and the right supports their right to protest. And Trump doesn't send in federal agents. Nobody is tear gassed, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE ARMED and brandishing those guns, openly. FAR more threatening than the Portland protesters.

Anti-maskers and "early openers" block traffic via their "drive up" protests....and the right supports their right to protest. And Trump doesn't send in federal agents. AN NOBODY IS TEAR GASSED just because they showed up.

White Supremacists in Charlottesville protest, actually KILL SOMEONE, and Trump says there were many good people on both sides.  The right supports their right to protest and Trump doesn't send in federal agents. And....tear gas isn't deployed on the KKK and other Supremacists marching, but is later used on counter-protesters.

All that's good.

But if the LEFT protests ACTUAL FUCKING MURDERS being perpetrated by certain members of the police, and advocates for reform and more accountability (aka less protection by "the brotherhood in blue" and police unions)....well, they deserve tear gassing, beating, and gestapo style arrests. Not EVEN for chipping bricks and graffitti...because the tear gas happened BEFORE those events. Just because they showed up and largely peacefully protested.

Seriously....WTF? How can any rational person who thinks they are remotely objective reconcile those positions?

[sandman]

The police misuse their powers -> But most cops are good
Protests get violent -> These left wing protestors are violent people who steal, and need to be dealt with harder. They are terrorists.




/jarmo

Not really Jarmo.

Everyone agrees police departments need to take more steps to ensure all people are treated equally no matter their race.

Liberals refuse to admit that there is violence and destruction at these protests and want to put all of the blame on the police.

See the difference?

The sad thing is liberals are eating up the propaganda being thrown at them online. They use non-specific phrases like “largely peaceful”. What does that even mean? “Largely” is a generic term that could be interpreted many different ways.

Cops are largely great people, so should we ignore the bad ones?

Why believe BS when so much of the destruction is being filmed and posted online all night? Its there for all to see.

Also, liberals should be even MORE angry at the violent protestors because they are making this about THEM instead of the cause at hand. Its also helping Trump enormously. The recent polls in the past 2 days show that this race is far from over.