I don't dig the last GN'R line-up

[Carlos Gunner]

I do not like how the last GN'R lineup is integrated, regardless of Axl, Duff, and Slash being part of it.

It feels like a mix of classical GN'R with studio musicians, I do not feel what they do, but I liked Chinese Democracy.

There is no art designed for the rest of the band in 6 to 7 years, it has always been about original Gunners, which says a lot.

[(t)]

I do kinda wonder how the rest of the band feels about being left out of all the promo art, especially Dizzy as he's been in the band for 30+ years now.

[cineater]

That's the fans fault.  They kind of refuse to recognize anybody but their heroes.

[GNR4LIFEJD]

Not that i like to let social media drive things but if you ever see on different facebook chats ill see all the time oh its not GNR cuz there is no Izzy or Steven. I am a huge fan of richard i think he has been a great addition for all the years he has been in GNR but the fair weather fan is gonna typically acknowledge the OG's like Axl, Slash & Duff good, bad or indifferent when you have a band that has been as big as GNR especially those first 3 albums AFD, Lies & Illusion Albums that is the Golden Age of GNR and what older fans hold onto despite how long some of the newer players have been in like Fortus, Frank and even Melissa now. Not that i wanna start another debate about having new material out but this is also a negative of not having alot of new material where you can attribute the new men/woman into the band and there contributions.

[Carlos Gunner]

I do kinda wonder how the rest of the band feels about being left out of all the promo art, especially Dizzy as he's been in the band for 30+ years now.

I think he feels overshadowed by Axl, and now Duff and Slash, but he decides to remain in the band anyways, he does not seem to have a strong voice in GN'R.

[Carlos Gunner]

That's the fans fault.  They kind of refuse to recognize anybody but their heroes.

Richard, Frank, Melissa, and even Dizzy have not reached the status of original gunners.

[Carlos Gunner]

Not that i like to let social media drive things but if you ever see on different facebook chats ill see all the time oh its not GNR cuz there is no Izzy or Steven. I am a huge fan of richard i think he has been a great addition for all the years he has been in GNR but the fair weather fan is gonna typically acknowledge the OG's like Axl, Slash & Duff good, bad or indifferent when you have a band that has been as big as GNR especially those first 3 albums AFD, Lies & Illusion Albums that is the Golden Age of GNR and what older fans hold onto despite how long some of the newer players have been in like Fortus, Frank and even Melissa now. Not that i wanna start another debate about having new material out but this is also a negative of not having alot of new material where you can attribute the new men/woman into the band and there contributions.

True, we do not know much about how the contribution of Richard and the rest of the non-original Gunners would be, due to a lack of original material with them playing in it.
I respect that you admire Richard.

Cheers!

[D-GenerationX]

That's the fans fault.  They kind of refuse to recognize anybody but their heroes.

Axl did not lift a finger to make any of the new band more accepted.

Something like he was trying to do, relaunch an iconic band with a line-up of strangers, was going to take real yeoman work on the publicity front. 

Axl could never be bothered.  He never took the time to put these guys over with the general public.

Would it still have flopped?  Honestly, big picture, yeah.  There would always be a "that's not Guns N' Roses" sentiment from longer time fans.  But he might have cultivated some honest to god new fans of his new line-up...but that was going to take some effort on his part.

[jarmo]

They toured the world for years. Saying they did nothing is just plain wrong.

The difference is that there wasn't one line up. It changed multiple times between 2000 and 2014.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

They toured the world for years. Saying they did nothing is just plain wrong.

The difference is that there wasn't one line up. It changed multiple times between 2000 and 2014.

What publicity did he ever do that talked about his new band, included his new bandmates along side of him, put over how great they were?

He didn't.  Bottom line.

This was going to take some real heavy lifting to give these guys the best chance to be accepted.  He didn't want to grab his end of the couch.

His call.  But we can't just make shit up about how much time and effort he allegedly put towards that goal when he simply did not.

[jarmo]

What publicity did he ever do that talked about his new band, included his new bandmates along side of him, put over how great they were?

He didn't.  Bottom line.

This was going to take some real heavy lifting to give these guys the best chance to be accepted.  He didn't want to grab his end of the couch.

His call.  But we can't just make shit up about how much time and effort he allegedly put towards that goal when he simply did not.

What exactly were you expecting him to do? When he had people like you against him. We know you think you're always right. Why would he bother trying to change your mind with interviews? They played shows. You could buy a ticket and either enjoy it for what it was, or don't. Many of us did.

No interview in the world could've change the fact that some didn't accept the band as GN'R. Simple as that.




/jarmo

[Bridge]

I do kinda wonder how the rest of the band feels about being left out of all the promo art, especially Dizzy as he's been in the band for 30+ years now.

I doubt they care.  They get paid huge dollars to stay on the GNR payroll AND they get to be musicians full time, something most musicians can only dream of.  I doubt they're petty enough to care much about being in photos.  They know the original members draw the fans, which benefits them as well, since their jobs are going to be extended as long as fans keep buying tickets.

[cineater]

What publicity did he ever do that talked about his new band, included his new bandmates along side of him, put over how great they were?

He didn't.  Bottom line.

This was going to take some real heavy lifting to give these guys the best chance to be accepted.  He didn't want to grab his end of the couch.

His call.  But we can't just make shit up about how much time and effort he allegedly put towards that goal when he simply did not.

What exactly were you expecting him to do? When he had people like you against him. We know you think you're always right. Why would he bother trying to change your mind with interviews? They played shows. You could buy a ticket and either enjoy it for what it was, or don't. Many of us did.

No interview in the world could've change the fact that some didn't accept the band as GN'R. Simple as that.




/jarmo

Maybe Axl didn't do anything to promo them but he didn't stop them.  Those guys were all over the place.  The shit they were up too.    They were out doing interviews, running websites and the behind the scenes shit, omg.  The only quite one was Bucket, weirdness all unto himself.  Miss those guys.

[GNR4L]

I think both Dizzy, Richard, Frank, Melissa.  know the magintude of having Slash & Duff being back in the band, where it doesn't really bother them.  Axl has been loyal as you can see with Richard and Frank still being in the band ( which i'm glad they're).  Being that this is also a business... it made sense having Axl, Slash, Duff in the promo's... that's just obvious.  I think this is probably the best lineup since the original AFD days, plus I still think there's new music, plus an album on the way.

[ITARocker]

The main "problem" is that GNR is really one of the few band in which every single member was recognizable, because of the appearance and the sound (the beatles, queen...i mean those kind of bands in which if u change 1 guy, everything changes). So when u change all the guys but one it's a problem cause literally nobody consider the new band as "gnr", as i said many times. It was seen as the Axl Rose thing, and actually he acted like it was his thing: he never lost a chance to show us he didn't care about what he was doing with the other guys (the delays of CD, the going late on stage, the perpetual changin line ups, 0 interviews, nobody really knew what was going on...). I never felt them as a "band" . So When you have again 2 guys of the old line up with their preminent appearance and sound you know people will consider that group of people a real band. It's something u can't change, it is what it is.

[D-GenerationX]

What exactly were you expecting him to do?

Rolling Stone puts him on the cover the second he asks.  As would any other number of major magazines.  Are you arguing he was willing to do so and they passed?  Doubtful.

He was attempting to sell a completely new line-up of an iconic band.  It was going to be hard, real hard.  Was going to take real effort.

So you lean into that.  You do an interview either with everyone as a band, or one that is just you, but you talk about your new band.  How great they are.  How much you are enjoying playing with them.  Encouraging fans, both fans of the old band and new fans seeing them for the first time, to give them a shot.  How they will like what they hear.

In short, you focus on the here and now and the future.

Or...you take to random internet fan forums right after the album comes out and talk about a guy that hasn't been in your band for 13 years at that point.  And describe him as "a cancer, best removed".

What a brilliant promotional strategy.  Really gives your new enterprise its best shot at success.  

When he had people like you against him. We know you think you're always right. Why would he bother trying to change your mind with interviews? They played shows. You could buy a ticket and either enjoy it for what it was, or don't. Many of us did.

I bought tickets for that incarnation of the band twice.  Once, Axl no show up (Philly 2002).  Once, he did (Camden 2011).  I enjoyed the one I show I got.

I tracked down every leak that I could in real time to satiate my hunger for new material.  Some, in ridiculous forms.  I listed to that 40 second clip of 'I.R.S.' that floated around, in all but unlistenable quality, because that's all I had.  I played that shit on a loop.

I physically traveled to Best Buy on 11/23/08, whne they oepned their doors, to get the new CD.  Yes, a physical CD.  In 2008.  

So your premise that I didn't accept this band is wrong on its face.

Guess that's me being right again.  Hey...it's a gift and a curse, my friend.  Gift and a curse.

No interview in the world could've change the fact that some didn't accept the band as GN'R. Simple as that.

Ultimately, I agree.  But does that mean you just never even try?

He was never going to sell the masses that Robin Finck and Ron Thal were the same as the band they grew up on.  Was not gonna happen, I agree with you.

But don't you take your best shot?  Even if you couldn't get things back to the stadium level...back catalogue alone should have made arenas at least plausible.

Or...flipside...you do nothing and play "up close and personal" venues <wink>.  And don't sell them out.

Life is about the choices you make.  

And he sure as shit didn't agree to a reunion out of total nowhere because things were going swimmingly for GNR circa 2015.

[D-GenerationX]

I think this is probably the best lineup since the original AFD days

I don't see an argument that this is not the most competent and professional incarnation of the band.

The shows are super tight.  Everyone gives their all.  On time.  No bullshit.

All of us that go to the shows have loved them.  I trust you have friends that aren't diehard like we all are, that went and saw them since 2016, and told you it was great.  I know I have had several.

[jarmo]

Rolling Stone puts him on the cover the second he asks.  As would any other number of major magazines.  Are you arguing he was willing to do so and they passed?  Doubtful.

No, I'm saying he didn't wanna talk to them.

Or...you take to random internet fan forums right after the album comes out and talk about a guy that hasn't been in your band for 13 years at that point.  And describe him as "a cancer, best removed".

What a brilliant promotional strategy.  Really gives your new enterprise its best shot at success. 

Yeah, speaking directly to the fans. Who could've guessed someone would say that was a bad thing...

So your premise that I didn't accept this band is wrong on its face.

To quote yourself: I Can Finally Say I Saw Guns N' Roses Without Any Caveats, Qualifiers, Or Preambles.  And It Was GLORIOUS.  Best Concert Of My Life.

Yeah, you really were truly supportive and accepting!

Ultimately, I agree.  But does that mean you just never even try?

There's a point in every situation where you either do something, or figure it's not worth the effort. We do it every day.





/jarmo

[DeN]

having Axl coming on GNR message boards was probably the best thing of that area with the release
of Chinese Democracy. at that time I thought it would become some sort of a recurrent event from time
to time, an opportunity for the fans to have a behind-the-scene perspective to kill misconceptions and
having fresh news. too bad it was a one shot, because he's still doing zero press and I can't see him
doing Joe Rogan or Howard Stern neither

[Eduardo]

So your premise that I didn't accept this band is wrong on its face.

To quote yourself: I Can Finally Say I Saw Guns N' Roses Without Any Caveats, Qualifiers, Or Preambles.  And It Was GLORIOUS.  Best Concert Of My Life.

Yeah, you really were truly supportive and accepting!

Don't want to stand in the middle of your argument here, but the fact that one prefers the new band, and sees it as "more GNR" than the old line-up doesn't mean lack of support for the old line-up.

There's no GNR fan in the world, and that includes you Jarmo, that would pick the old band over the current incarnation. That's a fact.

We enjoyed the band at the time, we liked CD, but there's no denying that something was missing there.

There was a time, I think circa 2006 (the era that Robin had long hair) that I thought the band would take off. Axl's voixe was amazing, Finck seemed to really enjoy and take his place as Axl's right arm, and Buckethead was gone (I liked his playing, but his persona never did it for me, it passed the image of a "non serious" band for me).

After Robin was gone I knew it was downhill from there (and it was).

So thank god we have our band back and no longer have caveats, qualifiers, or preambles.

[jarmo]

My point is, and was, that there are a bunch of people who kept going on about how "it isn't GN'R". Still do.

To keep claiming someone was supportive because they bought a ticket to a show just shows how they define support.

If I would say "Yeah, I saw them live but it's not GN'R" or "I bought the album, but it's not GN'R". Does that make my statement supportive?


That all depends on how you define supportive.

Nothing really to do about preferring one over the other. You can prefer something without having to be disrespectful. I prefer some artists or songs over others, but if you prefer those, that's cool.



/jarmo

[Trash Panda]

My point is, and was, that there are a bunch of people who kept going on about how "it isn't GN'R". Still do.

To keep claiming someone was supportive because they bought a ticket to a show just shows how they define support.

If I would say "Yeah, I saw them live but it's not GN'R" or "I bought the album, but it's not GN'R". Does that make my statement supportive?


That all depends on how you define supportive.

Nothing really to do about preferring one over the other. You can prefer something without having to be disrespectful. I prefer some artists or songs over others, but if you prefer those, that's cool.



/jarmo

It wasn't Guns n' Roses. If Robert Plant tours with three guys and calls it Led Zeppelin, it's still not Led Zeppelin. Only Axl fanatics are able to say with a straight face that band was Guns n' Roses.

[jarmo]

It wasn't Guns n' Roses. If Robert Plant tours with three guys and calls it Led Zeppelin, it's still not Led Zeppelin. Only Axl fanatics are able to say with a straight face that band was Guns n' Roses.

LOL.

All tickets said Guns N' Roses. All merchandise said Guns N' Roses. Chinese Democracy is a Guns N' Roses album.

Facts are facts, your opinion isn't a fact.






/jarmo

[sky dog]

Cowboys aren’t the Cowboys now because Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, and Michael Irvin don’t play for them anymore. Guns N’ Roses is a brand…a business just like the Cowboys. It’s all entertainment.

[Carlos Gunner]

Cowboys aren’t the Cowboys now because Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, and Michael Irvin don’t play for them anymore. Guns N’ Roses is a brand…a business just like the Cowboys. It’s all entertainment.

Except, it was falling down with Axl being the only original member of the band.
After the reunion, GNR filled up Stadiums one more time.

[Carlos Gunner]

It wasn't Guns n' Roses. If Robert Plant tours with three guys and calls it Led Zeppelin, it's still not Led Zeppelin. Only Axl fanatics are able to say with a straight face that band was Guns n' Roses.

LOL.

All tickets said Guns N' Roses. All merchandise said Guns N' Roses. Chinese Democracy is a Guns N' Roses album.

Facts are facts, your opinion isn't a fact.






/jarmo

I think Axl's solo years were the darkest of his life, and it reflected in the music, his eating habits, and that little by little fewer and fewer people were going to the concerts of GN'R. I think this was one of the reasons why Axl finally buried the hatchet with Slash, because he has not having fun, it was going down.

[cineater]

I think Axl's solo years were the darkest of his life, and it reflected in the music, his eating habits, and that little by little fewer and fewer people were going to the concerts of GN'R. I think this was one of the reasons why Axl finally buried the hatchet with Slash, because he has not having fun, it was going down.

Disagree.  It started off with Dizzy saying Axl's head was really in a good place.  Axl was in a pretty good mood around 2000.  But then tours were scheduled, cancelled and rescheduled and then Axl saying he didn't know anything about them.  I think he got a lot of stress from the different management groups.  Not to say that took him to a dark placed but those were fucked up situations.  The business side has always been a fight.

I think he liked the band members he worked with (me too), even said he misses them.  Didn't help Bucket had his own issues, Ron developed issues and some of the bandmates didn't like each other.

Didn't and don't like him flirting with alcohol.  He was clean, even said something about it takes a bit of getting use to.  Don't know why he would fuck with that but he did.  Got his ass smacked by a table, thrown in jail and caught on camera.  Don't think it was a dark thing with him but more of a situational pressure to come play.  This group isn't so willing to go that way as long as you stay away from Dizzy.

The dark part was probably more in those 20's early 30 years.  He got some distance on them and support for them, thank you Beta.  Not to say they didn't rear their ugly head but it probably wasn't as dark.

I'm not his analyst but his solo years showed me a different side of him.  He really wasn't that asshole he was in the beginning.  Just every once in a while.    Just kidding.  I have a lot of respect for Axl.  I don't think he spent a lot of time tossing demons from behind his eyelids in those years.  Spent a lot of time dealing with the shit he was getting dealt.

[123191]

It wasn't Guns n' Roses. If Robert Plant tours with three guys and calls it Led Zeppelin, it's still not Led Zeppelin. Only Axl fanatics are able to say with a straight face that band was Guns n' Roses.

LOL.

All tickets said Guns N' Roses. All merchandise said Guns N' Roses. Chinese Democracy is a Guns N' Roses album.

Facts are facts, your opinion isn't a fact.






/jarmo

I think Axl's solo years were the darkest of his life, and it reflected in the music, his eating habits, and that little by little fewer and fewer people were going to the concerts of GN'R. I think this was one of the reasons why Axl finally buried the hatchet with Slash, because he has not having fun, it was going down.

"His eating habits?"

Did you see the band in 2006 or even watch videos?

2006 Axl was an absolute machine and sang his ass off.

[DeN]

well, it is Guns N'roses.

Guns N'roses with Buckethead was Guns N'roses.
even Guns N'roses with DJ Ashba was Guns N'roses.  

we, meaning old time fans, have a misconception about GNR, because we discovered the band with the Appetite line up and thought it was immuable.

it is not. before that, Guns N'roses with Tracii Guns was Guns N'roses.
Guns N'roses with Rob Gardner was Guns N'roses.
Guns N'roses with Ole Beich was Guns N'roses.

so yeah, GNR Appetite incarnation was the one who made it. but as Axl said to us, it was poverty who sticked the guys together.
after that...

the thing which didn't help was the lack of communication with the general public & the press to explain the situation, and the fact
that the guys left without too much attention, it faded away like a nice dream.

Axl didn't have much choice if he wanted to continue at that level, keeping the name was the thing.

what did you want?
Slash securing the name, and doing some standard hard rock'n'roll without too much ambition with who knows singing?
with the problems Slash Duff & Matt have with singers?

I'm pretty sure in another universe it's the case, and they had 5 more albums, with 3 different singers...not sure if it's better there than here...

[Carlos Gunner]

It wasn't Guns n' Roses. If Robert Plant tours with three guys and calls it Led Zeppelin, it's still not Led Zeppelin. Only Axl fanatics are able to say with a straight face that band was Guns n' Roses.

LOL.

All tickets said Guns N' Roses. All merchandise said Guns N' Roses. Chinese Democracy is a Guns N' Roses album.

Facts are facts, your opinion isn't a fact.






/jarmo

I think Axl's solo years were the darkest of his life, and it reflected in the music, his eating habits, and that little by little fewer and fewer people were going to the concerts of GN'R. I think this was one of the reasons why Axl finally buried the hatchet with Slash, because he has not having fun, it was going down.

"His eating habits?"

Did you see the band in 2006 or even watch videos?

2006 Axl was an absolute machine and sang his ass off.

around 2010 when he gained weight
I think it was during his solo era 2002 2016 that GNR started losing color
and it was reflected in the art promo, in the colors on stage and the band in general,and for me the sound was not the same even though they played the same songs

[Carlos Gunner]

There are many versions of Guns N' Roses. But I think people mostly recognize Axl and Slash amongst all of the members that have been in GN'R.
Their reunion is the reason why Guns N' Roses is filling up stadiums again.
Even though I particularly love the AFD lineup.

[Carlos Gunner]

It is true Guns N' Roses has had many versions, with many truly outstanding musicians, but it is also true many of the musicians that have been in GNR are almost forgotten by the majority of the fandom.

People exalt the reunion of Axl, Duff, and Slash in the band, regardless of the participation of other musicians, who can be talented but I do not think the fandom would miss them if they left, just like the fandom does not miss Izzy or Steven, Buckethead, Dj Ashba, Robin Finck, amongst many others.

GNR was GNR even without the original lineup and with musicians with different backgrounds, just the majority of the fandom does not care anymore.

[DeN]

all I can say is I miss Robin & Brain.


my perfect GNR line up would be Axl, Slash, Duff, Robin, Richard, Brain & Melissa.

[jarmo]

It is true Guns N' Roses has had many versions, with many truly outstanding musicians, but it is also true many of the musicians that have been in GNR are almost forgotten by the majority of the fandom.

Yeah. Not many fans remember/know of Ole, Rob or Tracii...





/jarmo

[Carlos Gunner]

It is true Guns N' Roses has had many versions, with many truly outstanding musicians, but it is also true many of the musicians that have been in GNR are almost forgotten by the majority of the fandom.

Yeah. Not many fans remember/know of Ole, Rob or Tracii...





/jarmo

I do not think most fans who attend concerts know who is Richard or Melissa or Frank, either. or Dizzy

[jarmo]

I do not think most fans who attend concerts know who is Richard or Melissa or Frank, either. or Dizzy

Maybe they're not paying attention then. They get introduced at every show!



/jarmo

[Carlos Gunner]

I do not think most fans who attend concerts know who is Richard or Melissa or Frank, either. or Dizzy

Maybe they're not paying attention then. They get introduced at every show!



/jarmo

I mean, the same happened with the other guys and for years: even Izzy, Steven, also Buckeathead, and Bumblefoot. Dj Ashba, Tommy Stinson but the fandom easily forgot about them.

[cineater]

Not to belittle anybody's efforts but is it really about everyone being superstars in the band?  I know I cringe when I hear a new band is a group of superstars.  Yeah we know their names but the music is generally not that great and they don't hold together very long.

[PermissionToLand]

I've always thought it dumb how people get so hung up on labels, names, "legacy", etc. One era of the band does not detract from another. The name is just a name and whoever is in the band doesn't change whether it's GNR. I have a feeling that a lot of the people who say the CD lineup wasn't GNR would have sang a different tune if that lineup were more similar to the AFD lineup in style, and especially so if they really loved the resulting album.

It's also interesting that only certain bands get this kind of strife over lineup changes. Deep Purple has constantly gone through lineup changes throughout its entire existence. Each lineup has its fans, but you rarely hear people say "that's not the real Deep Purple!"

[cineater]

And then you have individual artists that have changed up their music.

[DeN]

difference is, time. in the case of GNR, all the members left except Axl (ok and Dizzy)
in a few years of inactivity, and not even under the eyes of the general public.

can't think of another case in rock history.

[axlroses]

I am so tired of this argument.  I guess Metallica isn't Metallica because Mustaine and Burton aren't in the band...or Newstead.  I bet the great majority of people going to a GNR show can't name a band member besides Axl and Slash.  The main issue with the new incarnation was that Axl(In some/many ways brought it upon himself) had made so enemies in the press that it was going to be negative no matter what he did.

[Trash Panda]

It wasn't Guns n' Roses. If Robert Plant tours with three guys and calls it Led Zeppelin, it's still not Led Zeppelin. Only Axl fanatics are able to say with a straight face that band was Guns n' Roses.

LOL.

All tickets said Guns N' Roses. All merchandise said Guns N' Roses. Chinese Democracy is a Guns N' Roses album.

Facts are facts, your opinion isn't a fact.






/jarmo

This is such a dumb argument. If Elon Musk bought the rights to the Guns n' Roses name then formed a band with himself, Donald Trump, Putin and Lindsay Lohan, it wouldn't be Guns n' Roses, whether the stupid merchandise said it or not.

[Oliver]

You forgot Kanye West.

[McGann]

It wasn't Guns n' Roses. If Robert Plant tours with three guys and calls it Led Zeppelin, it's still not Led Zeppelin. Only Axl fanatics are able to say with a straight face that band was Guns n' Roses.

LOL.

All tickets said Guns N' Roses. All merchandise said Guns N' Roses. Chinese Democracy is a Guns N' Roses album.

Facts are facts, your opinion isn't a fact.






/jarmo

This is such a dumb argument. If Elon Musk bought the rights to the Guns n' Roses name then formed a band with himself, Donald Trump, Putin and Lindsay Lohan, it wouldn't be Guns n' Roses, whether the stupid merchandise said it or not.

It would be.  Simple.
It’s a legal entity.
They own it?  It’s them.

Splash

/Mike

[jarmo]

There you go.


Arguing about it because you don't agree with it is just pointless. We've done that quite a few times already...




/jarmo