Chinese Democracy a BRILLIANT dark album.

[Carlos Gunner]

Hi !!

That is how I feel about CD, it is brilliant and somehow dark, leaning to obscure devilish.

What is your opinion of this album?

Sorry if this is for the DEAD HORSE section.

[Gavgnr]

I personally love the record. It’s got a bit of everything and there are so many depths to the tracks I’m still hearing new things to this very day. It’s a truly amazing album with some of the best songs Axl has ever written. Highlights for me include There Was A Time, Shacklers, Better, Madagascar and Prostitute.

Sublime music.

[ITARocker]

basically good songs which sound bad because they are overproduced, too much cut and paste, abuse of pro tools, too many people who come and go from musicians to producers. Something I've said many times.

If u listen to hard school and even absurd (if you can get rid of all the effects) u can feel how the songs are more tight even if they are a rework of a couple of old songs. Because people need to play togheter and go straight to the point.

It's a little too pompous (as example the neverending outros) but it's Axl Rose work so u are ready for it.

[DeN]

I don't know why but it feels a bit of a depressing album now,
I just listen to some of the songs (Better, Twat, Shackler, This I love & Prostitute)

as a record producer I would have kept these tracks and use others to complete it
(Hard Skool, Absurd, Eye On You, State of Grace...)

[PermissionToLand]

basically good songs which sound bad because they are overproduced, too much cut and paste, abuse of pro tools, too many people who come and go from musicians to producers. Something I've said many times.

If u listen to hard school and even absurd (if you can get rid of all the effects) u can feel how the songs are more tight even if they are a rework of a couple of old songs. Because people need to play togheter and go straight to the point.

It's a little too pompous (as example the neverending outros) but it's Axl Rose work so u are ready for it.

I see this said a lot, but I never see any specifics. Where do you hear a cut and paste? What exactly makes it "overproduced"? What's wrong with pro tools and how is that audible on the record?

Producers came and went in the early stages, but the final product was Axl & Caram's work, and has a consistent sonic footprint throughout.

It was also one of the rare albums that broke with the trend of brickwalling (AKA the loudness wars), and has a high dynamic range as a result. To criticize the production is strange, it's very well done. IDK why "overproduction" has become a catchall term for "includes instruments that I dislike".

[dsaddler78]

I can't speak for the above poster but I believe he is referring to the song "scraped" when saying it is cut and paste vocals. With that said, I also love the album. I wouldn't say over produced, maybe just tinkered with to much? Just my opinion though

[D-GenerationX]

I can't speak for the above poster but I believe he is referring to the song "scraped" when saying it is cut and paste vocals. With that said, I also love the album. I wouldn't say over produced, maybe just tinkered with to much? Just my opinion though

Oh, it's overproduced.  Might be the best example of the concept of "too many cooks".  Doesn't disqualify it though.

Look at that original demo of the title track.  If anyone has not heard the demo, it's basically the same version we hear at RIR III.  Tight, 3 minute rocker.   I think it's excellent.  The RIR III version is the one I put on playlists.

Now compare it to the version on the album.  Long melodramatic intro.  Double tracked vocals.  Which, while hardly a first for Axl, really takes away some of the power of the song here.  Does the added guitar work really add to the song?  Or just make it longer?

The versions of 'Chinese Democracy', 'Madagascar', and 'Street Of Dreams' we hear at RIR III in 2001 give you great hope.

Do you honestly think any of them *improved* by the time we got their studio versions in 2008?

[Carlos Gunner]

I don't know why but it feels a bit of a depressing album now,
I just listen to some of the songs (Better, Twat, Shackler, This I love & Prostitute)

as a record producer I would have kept these tracks and use others to complete it
(Hard Skool, Absurd, Eye On You, State of Grace...)

I do like the album but I think those days were dark for Axl.

[Carlos Gunner]

I can't speak for the above poster but I believe he is referring to the song "scraped" when saying it is cut and paste vocals. With that said, I also love the album. I wouldn't say over produced, maybe just tinkered with to much? Just my opinion though

Oh, it's overproduced.  Might be the best example of the concept of "too many cooks".  Doesn't disqualify it though.

Look at that original demo of the title track.  If anyone has not heard the demo, it's basically the same version we hear at RIR III.  Tight, 3 minute rocker.   I think it's excellent.  The RIR III version is the one I put on playlists.

Now compare it to the version on the album.  Long melodramatic intro.  Double tracked vocals.  Which, while hardly a first for Axl, really takes away some of the power of the song here.  Does the added guitar work really add to the song?  Or just make it longer?

The versions of 'Chinese Democracy', 'Madagascar', and 'Street Of Dreams' we hear at RIR III in 2001 give you great hope.

Do you honestly think any of them *improved* by the time we got their studio versions in 2008?

I prefer Madagascar's RIR3 version.

[PermissionToLand]

Look at that original demo of the title track.  If anyone has not heard the demo, it's basically the same version we hear at RIR III.  Tight, 3 minute rocker.   I think it's excellent.  The RIR III version is the one I put on playlists.

Now compare it to the version on the album.  Long melodramatic intro.  Double tracked vocals.  Which, while hardly a first for Axl, really takes away some of the power of the song here.  Does the added guitar work really add to the song?  Or just make it longer?

Double tracked vocals are "overproduction"? Somebody alert Freddie Mercury! Hell, somebody tell Axl on UYI and AFD.

The only added guitar work that makes the song longer is the 2nd solo. How is that a bad thing? Nobody complains about Slash doing 2 solos on Estranged.

The only other changes are some riffs in the verses that fill it out from the empty sound at RIR and outro solos.

The versions of 'Chinese Democracy', 'Madagascar', and 'Street Of Dreams' we hear at RIR III in 2001 give you great hope.

The changes are so minimal, it amazes me that the common refrain is that they were "ruined" instead of "what did he spend all that time doing when they're 99% the same?"

I bet y'all would be saying the same thing if you heard an unfinished live version of Paradise City without the synths before AFD released. Rock fans can be so predictable sometimes.

But I guess Madagascar is okay to have a "long melodramatic intro" because it was already part of it in 2001.

Do you honestly think any of them *improved* by the time we got their studio versions in 2008?

In terms of actual production, not just artistic choices you dislike? Unquestionably.

[D-GenerationX]

I prefer Madagascar's RIR3 version.

Me too.

But, if I am being honest, I also played the absolute shit out of that concert when I got it.  And I got it soon after the show.  So I had literal YEARS where they were the only versions of the new songs I had.  It's what I got used to.

Does that cloud my take on the finished product.  Probably does with 'Madagascar' as RIR III and CD aren't all that different.  But the album's title track and 'The Blues' (as we all thought it was called for years) are, in my opinion, almost different versions of the songs.

[D-GenerationX]

The changes are so minimal, it amazes me that the common refrain is that they were "ruined" instead of "what did he spend all that time doing when they're 99% the same?"

Let me give you another example, which I think bolsters your argument.

The vocal track on 'I.R.S.' is literally from 1999.  All that tweaking, he never touched that.  Now, it's one of my favorite tracks on the album.  I also think it's a strong vocal, and didn't need any retouches.

But there is an example of the tinkering helping, I think.  I think the added guitar parts on that song finished product enhance it greatly.

[rebelhipi]

I can't speak for the above poster but I believe he is referring to the song "scraped" when saying it is cut and paste vocals. With that said, I also love the album. I wouldn't say over produced, maybe just tinkered with to much? Just my opinion though

Oh, it's overproduced.  Might be the best example of the concept of "too many cooks".  Doesn't disqualify it though.

Look at that original demo of the title track.  If anyone has not heard the demo, it's basically the same version we hear at RIR III.  Tight, 3 minute rocker.   I think it's excellent.  The RIR III version is the one I put on playlists.

Now compare it to the version on the album.  Long melodramatic intro.  Double tracked vocals.  Which, while hardly a first for Axl, really takes away some of the power of the song here.  Does the added guitar work really add to the song?  Or just make it longer?

The versions of 'Chinese Democracy', 'Madagascar', and 'Street Of Dreams' we hear at RIR III in 2001 give you great hope.

Do you honestly think any of them *improved* by the time we got their studio versions in 2008?

Chinese. I prefer the final 2008 version. Because i like the double solo thats missing from the 2001 verison, and i prefer Franks drum beat over Brains, also i dig the intro.
Street Of Dreams i prefer the 2008 version. Because the intro of the song is better on the album comparred to the ''stop and start'' of the 2001 verison.
Madagascar is a tie. Maybe a slight preference to the Boston 2002 live version. No big differences. Both are 6/5

[D-GenerationX]

Chinese. I prefer the final 2008 version. Because i like the double solo thats missing from the 2001 verison, and i prefer Franks drum beat over Brains, also i dig the intro.
Street Of Dreams i prefer the 2008 version. Because the intro of the song is better on the album comparred to the ''stop and start'' of the 2001 verison.
Madagascar is a tie. Maybe a slight preference to the Boston 2002 live version. No big differences. Both are 6/5

That 2002 Boston show is excellent.  And yes, 'Madagascar' a particular standout.

[rebelhipi]

Chinese. I prefer the final 2008 version. Because i like the double solo thats missing from the 2001 verison, and i prefer Franks drum beat over Brains, also i dig the intro.
Street Of Dreams i prefer the 2008 version. Because the intro of the song is better on the album comparred to the ''stop and start'' of the 2001 verison.
Madagascar is a tie. Maybe a slight preference to the Boston 2002 live version. No big differences. Both are 6/5

That 2002 Boston show is excellent.  And yes, 'Madagascar' a particular standout.

Yes!
Remember the fan made music video made from it?
It was introduction to the song and i have a sweet spot for it. And the video could honestly be official its so good.

A shame that they never did videos for it.

[rebelhipi]

Found it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpPyFNNgyC8

(Bad quality and spanish lyrics.)

[ITARocker]

basically good songs which sound bad because they are overproduced, too much cut and paste, abuse of pro tools, too many people who come and go from musicians to producers. Something I've said many times.

If u listen to hard school and even absurd (if you can get rid of all the effects) u can feel how the songs are more tight even if they are a rework of a couple of old songs. Because people need to play togheter and go straight to the point.

It's a little too pompous (as example the neverending outros) but it's Axl Rose work so u are ready for it.

I see this said a lot, but I never see any specifics. Where do you hear a cut and paste? What exactly makes it "overproduced"? What's wrong with pro tools and how is that audible on the record?

Producers came and went in the early stages, but the final product was Axl & Caram's work, and has a consistent sonic footprint throughout.

It was also one of the rare albums that broke with the trend of brickwalling (AKA the loudness wars), and has a high dynamic range as a result. To criticize the production is strange, it's very well done. IDK why "overproduction" has become a catchall term for "includes instruments that I dislike".

It's not easy to explain, it's more of a feeling when i listen to the songs... An example that always comes to my mind...The guitar slide during the break of better: it's been attached after (years) they completed the song using a different guitar with a different setting compared to the rest of the song: that wasnt really needed and that sounds "out of the context" (i mean the context of the mix). But you can hear these things everywhere. Plus many songs sound artificially complicated while they are really "flat", it's like adding here and there everything that comes to mind just to build the song (ex: madagascar). I think it happens cause the songs were built probably on a laptop before they were brought into a rehearsal studio (if they were ever brought into the studio...). And that's why them sound better live, because some things come more naturally when u play the songs with other people and not while you're sitting in your room working alone on a track sent by email. I think this could work better for e certain type of music where even the "fake sound" is pretty normal (hip hop) but when it comes to rock, un can't lose the dynamics and the interactions between musicians, throwing a cut/past/rebuilt solo (ex: remember what happened to the brian may's solo) on a song played by another guy, and so on. I don't know if everybody can hear that. But I can. It's not about the thousands of layers, the neverending outros etc (we are talking about axl rose at the end of the day)... It's the way the songs are built trough the years and a never ending process.

If i had to find a couple of songs which sound good because people worked on them without any waste of time, in a short amount of time and straight to the point i would say shackler and sorry. But that's it.

[Wooody]

Most of the songs from CHIDEM are better live.... it's a shame we don't have a live album.

I hate madagascar on the record, love RIR. Same with This I love.

[PermissionToLand]

It's not easy to explain, it's more of a feeling when i listen to the songs... An example that always comes to my mind...The guitar slide during the break of better: it's been attached after (years) they completed the song using a different guitar with a different setting compared to the rest of the song: that wasnt really needed and that sounds "out of the context" (i mean the context of the mix). But you can hear these things everywhere. Plus many songs sound artificially complicated while they are really "flat"

The 2006 leak of Better had a weird synth part where the guitar slide is. I guarantee you if it was the other way around and a guitar was replaced with a synth, everyone would be saying the opposite. It just reeks of such contrarianism and groupthink to me.

Again, we come back to vague terms like "artificially complicated" and "flat". What makes it "flat", exactly? I've pointed out the low compression levels that actually allow the sound to breathe more than most modern albums that are brickwalled.

it's like adding here and there everything that comes to mind just to build the song (ex: madagascar). I think it happens cause the songs were built probably on a laptop before they were brought into a rehearsal studio (if they were ever brought into the studio...). And that's why them sound better live, because some things come more naturally when u play the songs with other people and not while you're sitting in your room working alone on a track sent by email. I think this could work better for e certain type of music where even the "fake sound" is pretty normal (hip hop) but when it comes to rock, un can't lose the dynamics and the interactions between musicians, throwing a cut/past/rebuilt solo (ex: remember what happened to the brian may's solo) on a song played by another guy, and so on. I don't know if everybody can hear that. But I can. It's not about the thousands of layers, the neverending outros etc (we are talking about axl rose at the end of the day)... It's the way the songs are built trough the years and a never ending process.

What was changed in Madagascar? At RIR 2001 it already had all the sound clips of quotes in the middle section.

Do you know for a fact that the songs were written by sending clips back and forth? They spent a ton of money on studio time, why would they not use it? Axl wasn't there singing with the live band when they recorded AFD either. Most artists don't work that way. Same goes for solos. They are recorded after the band lays down a rhythm section. That's how all the classic GNR albums were recorded. Do you really think they all just went into the studio and recorded AFD like a live performance?

[ITARocker]

It's not easy to explain, it's more of a feeling when i listen to the songs... An example that always comes to my mind...The guitar slide during the break of better: it's been attached after (years) they completed the song using a different guitar with a different setting compared to the rest of the song: that wasnt really needed and that sounds "out of the context" (i mean the context of the mix). But you can hear these things everywhere. Plus many songs sound artificially complicated while they are really "flat"

The 2006 leak of Better had a weird synth part where the guitar slide is. I guarantee you if it was the other way around and a guitar was replaced with a synth, everyone would be saying the opposite. It just reeks of such contrarianism and groupthink to me.

Again, we come back to vague terms like "artificially complicated" and "flat". What makes it "flat", exactly? I've pointed out the low compression levels that actually allow the sound to breathe more than most modern albums that are brickwalled.

it's like adding here and there everything that comes to mind just to build the song (ex: madagascar). I think it happens cause the songs were built probably on a laptop before they were brought into a rehearsal studio (if they were ever brought into the studio...). And that's why them sound better live, because some things come more naturally when u play the songs with other people and not while you're sitting in your room working alone on a track sent by email. I think this could work better for e certain type of music where even the "fake sound" is pretty normal (hip hop) but when it comes to rock, un can't lose the dynamics and the interactions between musicians, throwing a cut/past/rebuilt solo (ex: remember what happened to the brian may's solo) on a song played by another guy, and so on. I don't know if everybody can hear that. But I can. It's not about the thousands of layers, the neverending outros etc (we are talking about axl rose at the end of the day)... It's the way the songs are built trough the years and a never ending process.

What was changed in Madagascar? At RIR 2001 it already had all the sound clips of quotes in the middle section.

Do you know for a fact that the songs were written by sending clips back and forth? They spent a ton of money on studio time, why would they not use it? Axl wasn't there singing with the live band when they recorded AFD either. Most artists don't work that way. Same goes for solos. They are recorded after the band lays down a rhythm section. That's how all the classic GNR albums were recorded. Do you really think they all just went into the studio and recorded AFD like a live performance?

That's not what i was saying. I'm not naive, i know how it works. But take Hard school as an example, which is "just" a reworked song. When i first listened to the leak i started mentally to chop the song (this part, that part, the intro was made later etc etc) i felt the song was a "complicated" effort to build up something over an easy base. Take the new version reworked by 2 people who works togheter from the dawn of time. They first cut the "artificial things" made just to make the song longer (the intro, which it was even a nice one but it just didn't belong ot the song), changed the weak solo and go straight to the point, that's their take they wanted the song to sound that way and that's it, boom. The result is a tight song which works, even with the cut past vocals coming from another song (the "hey hey" part).. Because the base is solid, and it doesnt come from 300 different people and their 100000 efforts.

Now the RIR thing. Why, generally speaking, people likes more MAdagascar RIR 3 "softer and darkest" (and even weaker in a sense) version of he song? Because the song was meant to sound that way, with that industrial sound and atmosphere, cause people involved at that point were supposed to use that sound and it worked better, in a sense. But fans wanted gnr sound (the classic one) so axl changed idea. He gave up the industrial vibe, pitman was the second frontman and suddenly became the useless tamburine man. Somehow I think it really went downhill from there in axl's mind: how we can manage these industrial songs and make them more hard rock?  If you take the cd final version is actually the original industrial song with all its industrial effects and guitars volume turned down and heavier rock guitars pasted all over it. It's the way you work on a song? really? This is what i call overproduction: you have all these songs parts (maybe made years ago), or almost ended songs but you're  not satisfied with them so u keep adding things (and u barely remove the other things, so you have 400000 layers) just trying to make them better, But it doesn't fully work.  Because u don't have really a clear idea on how the songs should be, how the songs should sound like etc.

Now don't focus on these examples i made, it's just a general speaking, the "vibe" i have listening to cd. Maybe it's just me, but i think i'm not that far from the truth.