B-sides with a touch of Slash and Duff

[Carlos Gunner]

GN'R management has, so far, released three B-sides from the Chinese Democracy era and it is planning to release another one soon.

I was wondering  if we will hear actual new material in the new album, or if we will continue with this streak.

My personal opinion about these last releases is that they do not feel like GN'R but instead they feel like Axl and former GN'R members songs with a touch of Slash and Duff.

Axl once said that it is very hard to ask a musician to play the parts of other musicians, when asking former members of GN'R to play Slash, Duff and Izzy's parts. Well I was just wondering how Slash and Duff feel about having to play over other musicians parts, considering they said they enjoy it but taking in count Slash's big ego and that credibility is important for him.

Some Fb pages promote Perhaps as a new song composed by Slash Duff and Axl, but that is not true, they did not sit down and created it, most of it was already written. I think most of the authors are already out of thr band, the same with The General.

I personally do not like where GN'R composition is going, because I do not see Duff's or Slash's old material being released with thr bame of GN'R now, it is clearly Axl's decisions and they are taking many years.

Izzy is surely missed and needed to write new songs.

Well Axl is the boss, no more to say.

[jarmo]

What the fuck are you talking about? Three B sides?

Says who?

I'm shocked you managed to mention Izzy in your post! How many new songs has he released since August 2021?






/jarmo

[kunzerd]

Where’s a “bucket of popcorn emoji” when you need it…

[MHC]

Jarmo is such a shill. He’s so paid-for that he either can’t see or won’t admit that this band is totally dysfunctional in its ability to write, record, and release new music.

I wouldn’t call these B-sides, but definitely “Chinese leftovers”. It’s so embarrassing that Frank has been the drummer for SEVENTEEN years and doesn’t even make it onto Perhaps.

[kyrie]

What exactly was the point of this post? The original question was already answered by Slash a while ago... after The General, you can probably expect two more songs next. He said 4 to 6 songs if I recall correctly. Presumably, that was Hard Skool/Absurd, then Perhaps/The General. Atlas Shrugged and State of Grace next? Or maybe a surprise? If he wasn't counting Hard Skool/Absurd, then maybe Oklahoma/Soul Monster too? Who knows. Fun times!

Beyond that, we have no idea who composed Perhaps. Robin is pretty clearly on the demo but it could have been entirely Axl, it could have predated the CD lineup (like This I Love and potentially Hard Skool), etc. And either way who cares? Are you just mad that Slash worked on songs that might have been worked on without him? Why? Did you complain when Guns recorded songs written by West Arkeen? Cuz if you didn't, keep that same energy kid.

[jarmo]

Jarmo is such a shill. He’s so paid-for that he either can’t see or won’t admit that this band is totally dysfunctional in its ability to write, record, and release new music.

I wouldn’t call these B-sides, but definitely “Chinese leftovers”. It’s so embarrassing that Frank has been the drummer for SEVENTEEN years and doesn’t even make it onto Perhaps.

Oh really?

You're so full of yourself thinking you understand me or what I'm about.

You use the cliché Chinese leftovers phrase which just proves how clueless you really are.


Go listen to the AFD leftovers on UYI. Oh, right, those aren't leftovers....

What exactly was the point of this post?

Another excuse to mention Izzy. That is it.



/jarmo

[bicycle handgrenade]

GN'R management has, so far, released three B-sides from the Chinese Democracy era and it is planning to release another one soon.

There's a lot wrong with your statement. The songs aren't b-sides from the Chinese Democracy era and GNR management hasn't released them. Geffen Records has released them.

I was wondering  if we will hear actual new material in the new album, or if we will continue with this streak.

All of the biggest hits from Use Your Illusion were written before Appetite for Destruction. Releasing a song for the first time makes it a new song. Working on the song for a long time doesn't mean it's not a new song when it's finally completed.

[123191]

Jarmo is such a shill. He’s so paid-for that he either can’t see or won’t admit that this band is totally dysfunctional in its ability to write, record, and release new music.

I wouldn’t call these B-sides, but definitely “Chinese leftovers”. It’s so embarrassing that Frank has been the drummer for SEVENTEEN years and doesn’t even make it onto Perhaps.

Oh really?


Hey, I love some of those leftovers. November Rain, Don’t Cry, Back Off Bitch. No one complains about those. I’m digging Perhaps and am glad to see anything new come out even if it happens to be an older song that is reworked with Duff and Slash. The band owes us nothing. Once people realize that, they’ll sleep better.
You're so full of yourself thinking you understand me or what I'm about.

You use the cliché Chinese leftovers phrase which just proves how clueless you really are.


Go listen to the AFD leftovers on UYI. Oh, right, those aren't leftovers....

What exactly was the point of this post?

Another excuse to mention Izzy. That is it.



/jarmo

[bicycle handgrenade]

Jarmo is such a shill.

What did he say that wasn't true? Why not attack his argument instead of attacking him personally?

I wouldn’t call these B-sides, but definitely “Chinese leftovers”.

They aren't Chinese leftovers though. Is Use Your Illusion II leftovers from Use Your Illusion I? No. The band was working on two albums simultaneously.

Before Chinese Democracy was released, work had begun on the follow-up. The band was working on dozens of songs for many years. Some for the first album, some for the second. No different than Don't Cry and November Rain being worked on years before Appetite for Destruction was released.

It’s so embarrassing that Frank has been the drummer for SEVENTEEN years and doesn’t even make it onto Perhaps.

Why is it embarrassing? There are countless bands with a touring drummer and a studio drummer that aren't the same person. If Brain doesn't want to tour, that means Axl isn't allowed to work with him even if he wants to?

[cineater]

Jarmo is such a shill.

What did he say that wasn't true? Why not attack his argument instead of attacking him personally?

I wouldn’t call these B-sides, but definitely “Chinese leftovers”.

They aren't Chinese leftovers though. Is Use Your Illusion II leftovers from Use Your Illusion I? No. The band was working on two albums simultaneously.

Before Chinese Democracy was released, work had begun on the follow-up. The band was working on dozens of songs for many years. Some for the first album, some for the second. No different than Don't Cry and November Rain being worked on years before Appetite for Destruction was released.

It’s so embarrassing that Frank has been the drummer for SEVENTEEN years and doesn’t even make it onto Perhaps.

Why is it embarrassing? There are countless bands with a touring drummer and a studio drummer that aren't the same person. If Brain doesn't want to tour, that means Axl isn't allowed to work with him even if he wants to?

Good points.

[Carlos Gunner]

The demos were completed with other artists, and probably written with their influence, integrants such as Finck, Buckethead and Mantia, or co-written by them.

That is why I do not feel it is original GN'R, at least not the 3 original members: Slash, Duff and Axl writing this music as Perhaps, the song, is credited for, for instance.

[Carlos Gunner]

These are definitely NOT new songs, since we have had access to the original demos, we have heard them, at least for some years so far.

[Spirit]

Do we know the origins of Perhaps?

Is it one of those that Richard mentioned stems all the way back to the mid-90s?

I mean, since the official press release said “written and recorded by Axl Rose, Slash, and Duff McKagan this year", are they more comfortable with that statement if the song originates from a long time ago when Duff and Slash actually worked on it? I know the statement sounds true either way, as they probably recorded for the song this year, and Axl obviously has a hand in writing it.

[Carlos Gunner]

Do we know the origins of Perhaps?

Is it one of those that Richard mentioned stems all the way back to the mid-90s?

I mean, since the official press release said “written and recorded by Axl Rose, Slash, and Duff McKagan this year", are they more comfortable with that statement if the song originates from a long time ago when Duff and Slash actually worked on it? I know the statement sounds true either way, as they probably recorded for the song this year, and Axl obviously has a hand in writing it.

This is what Rolling Stone magazine says about the song:

Following its accidental leak via digital jukeboxes last weekend, “Perhaps” officially arrived Friday, and while it’s credited as a new song created with the input of the GN’R core trio of Rose, Slash, and McKagan, the track has its roots in the sessions for Chinese Democracy; an early version of the song has long-circulated among bootleggers.

“Perhaps” won’t be the only new song GNR release this year: The band has announced a 7″ single for the track backed by another new recording titled “The General,” which like “Perhaps” has roots in the Chinese Democracy sessions. The vinyl single arrives October 26.

[Carlos Gunner]

So these songs may be new for most but some of us know they have their roots in Chinese Democracy sessions and were not written by Slash and Duff.

It takes credibility away from them for me.

[Billo]

I disagree with this, all gunners songs take a long process to write, they change and form until the bands satisfied to put them out, look at say Don't cry which was an old song people heard before it was officially released, Also if we never
heard the leaks these would be new, your fault for spoiling it for yourself..... my opinion, you can tell it's from the Chinese sessions but its fine and im happy to get anything new released, so happy there still happy as a band and playing together...
Love it.

[jarmo]

So these songs may be new for most but some of us know they have their roots in Chinese Democracy sessions and were not written by Slash and Duff.

It takes credibility away from them for me.

Reckless Life, Shadow Of Your Love, Anything Goes have roots in bands that existed before GN'R. Does that bother you as well?

Why does it matter when the original idea was conceived? Do you like the song? Yes? No? If not, move on. Find something you like instead of constantly whining about how Izzy is not in the band anymore.

We fucking get it.


Guns N' Roses released a song the majority of fans have not heard before. It's new to most fans. Here's a shocking fact for you: The next song they release, you haven't heard and chances are it won't have Izzy on it. Yes we know, you won't like it.



/jarmo

[ITARocker]

Imho it's very simple: song was originally written at the piano by axl. Finck added the guitar parts. That's it. They erased the Finck guitar parts and voilà, the song is written by the 3 of them. Nothing unusual, but obviosuly is not a "new song" nor a song coming from a true original cooperation. The song would stand alone with the piano and the voice, i mean, the main structure comes from that. Lyrics were there already. But probably this time they really went to a studio togheter were axl finally sang again his parts, slash played his parts, duff his parts ....They had some communication and real interactions in terms of "I like this I like that, you should do this you should that " more than what they did for absurd or hard skool. In any case all the new songs sound tighter and tighter, they are miles away from the chaotic overproduction of CD. This finally sounds like a band...

[kyrie]

So these songs may be new for most but some of us know they have their roots in Chinese Democracy sessions and were not written by Slash and Duff.

It takes credibility away from them for me.

So again, does Guns recording West Arkeen songs bother you (i.e. on Illusions)? Not every song GNR has was written by Slash and Duff. The writing credits are out there on this crazy thing we call the internet. November Rain and Don't Cry existed before Appetite came out. The first recording of Don't Cry was in 1985. Doesn't that bother you as well? That was an old demo that was new to most in 1991...

Keep that same energy. Otherwise, it sounds more like you're complaining for the sake of complaining. This isn't new for this band unless you've been here a week.

[Carlos Gunner]

Thank you for the input guys, take care.

[Carlos Gunner]

I will be back if "the GENERAL" is released as an Axl, Slash, Duff song.  

[Spirit]

Imho it's very simple: song was originally written at the piano by axl. Finck added the guitar parts. That's it. They erased the Finck guitar parts and voilà, the song is written by the 3 of them.

But we don't really know do we? We suspect that Hard Skool (Jackie Chan) originates all the way back to 95-96, which means the timeline could be:

- 95-96: Axl, Slash and Duff all did some work on the song.
- 98-99: New guys come in and reworks the song into the demo we know
- 20-21: Slash and Duff are back, either takes the song back to more of its original form, or comes up with a brand new concept. Either way re-records it, and it's released.


Obviously we don't really know, but maybe it could be the case with Perhaps as well. I am curious because of the comment Richard gave many(?) years ago that they were working on material that stems all the way back to when Slash was still in the band in the 90s.

[Carlos Gunner]

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1513648772798987&set=gm.10160529143510091&idorvanity=2346615090


Is this an official statement from the band?

Because it is written that Perhaps is a new single written and recorded by Axl, Slash and Duff, this year. and that is just not true.

[kyrie]

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1513648772798987&set=gm.10160529143510091&idorvanity=2346615090


Is this an official statement from the band?

Because it is written that Perhaps is a new single written and recorded by Axl, Slash and Duff, this year. and that is just not true.

The statement came in a press release from Audacy. Not sure if it came from the band, or from that company. It also appeared on gnrmerch.com and was modified there - it now reads:

"Guns N’ Roses return with a single entitled “Perhaps” out now via Geffen Records. It stands out as the legendary rock band’s first release since 2021. The 7” includes the R-Side, “The General.”"

It no longer mentions songwriting credits. Slash may get a songwriting credit in the end because he added guitar parts. The band has always tinkered with songs for years. Nothing new.

[Carlos Gunner]

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1513648772798987&set=gm.10160529143510091&idorvanity=2346615090


Is this an official statement from the band?

Because it is written that Perhaps is a new single written and recorded by Axl, Slash and Duff, this year. and that is just not true.

The statement came in a press release from Audacy. Not sure if it came from the band, or from that company. It also appeared on gnrmerch.com and was modified there - it now reads:

"Guns N’ Roses return with a single entitled “Perhaps” out now via Geffen Records. It stands out as the legendary rock band’s first release since 2021. The 7” includes the R-Side, “The General.”"

It no longer mentions songwriting credits. Slash may get a songwriting credit in the end because he added guitar parts. The band has always tinkered with songs for years. Nothing new.

Thank you, I just do not understand why Slash would get credit for writing guitar parts when he did not get them in Estranged for instance.

[bicycle handgrenade]

These are definitely NOT new songs, since we have had access to the original demos, we have heard them, at least for some years so far.

Nobody forced you to illegally download stolen demos of song ideas that weren't finished.

If a movie is worked on for 15 years, it's still a new movie when it's finally released.

[cybercurves]

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1513648772798987&set=gm.10160529143510091&idorvanity=2346615090


Is this an official statement from the band?

Because it is written that Perhaps is a new single written and recorded by Axl, Slash and Duff, this year. and that is just not true.

It's absolutely 100% true. The official version that got released was written and recorded by Axl, Slash and Duff.

[Bodhi]

“Perhaps” is a brand new Guns N Roses song released in 2023.  The fact that some people gained access to stolen demos that the band didn’t intend on you hearing doesn’t change that. 

A “b-side” is a term for a song that used to be on the other side of a single, so the term is not even being used correctly here.  The term “b-side” is used as a derogatory term but that also makes no sense because there is an endless list of massive hit songs that were “b-sides.”  A good portion of fan favorite songs by Oasis were b-sides.  Anyone know the b-side on the “ You could be Mine” single?  The list goes on and on.

What are the rules for what constitutes a “new” song ?  Do we have to lock all the band members in a room and they can’t leave until they record a brand new song that contains no lyrics or riffs that they previously thought of before  being locked in said room?  It’s beyond silly.   NO bands make music like that, especially in 2023.


Also by this logic, is “November Rain” the biggest “b-side” of all time ?

[sky dog]

Outtake is the proper description. Bob Dylan has a ton of incredible songs that weren’t on the album they were recording for. Sometimes outtakes can be better than the tracks on the album.

[jarmo]

GN'R has left songs off albums for reasons that certain people choose to ignore. Calling these songs leftovers just shows the biased ignorance.

Don't Cry wasn't on Appetite, and not due to its quality. Just like certain songs were left off Chinese. If you have more songs than fits on the album, you save some for later. Maybe you don't want to have more slow songs on an album. So you save some for later (Don't Cry, November Rain).

The Use Your Illusion albums contain many "AFD leftovers" and I've yet to see anyone being bothered by that, as much as these recent singles.



/jarmo

[Carlos Gunner]

These are definitely NOT new songs, since we have had access to the original demos, we have heard them, at least for some years so far.

Nobody forced you to illegally download stolen demos of song ideas that weren't finished.

If a movie is worked on for 15 years, it's still a new movie when it's finally released.

Did Axl ever refer to the demos as stolen?

What did Axl ever say about the demos?

I think demos were published on the internet twice, back in the beginning of the 2000s and in 2019.

How come this happened twice?

Did Axl ever sue anyone for uploading the demos on the internet?

[Carlos Gunner]

GN'R has left songs off albums for reasons that certain people choose to ignore. Calling these songs leftovers just shows the biased ignorance.

Don't Cry wasn't on Appetite, and not due to its quality. Just like certain songs were left off Chinese. If you have more songs than fits on the album, you save some for later. Maybe you don't want to have more slow songs on an album. So you save some for later (Don't Cry, November Rain).

The Use Your Illusion albums contain many "AFD leftovers" and I've yet to see anyone being bothered by that, as much as these recent singles.



/jarmo

Except these songs are written and almost completed with other artists.

[Carlos Gunner]

Let's be honest, most of us downloaded and listened to Chinese Democracy demos.

So they are not new songs for us.

[bicycle handgrenade]

Outtake is the proper description. Bob Dylan has a ton of incredible songs that weren’t on the album they were recording for. Sometimes outtakes can be better than the tracks on the album.

The reason I'd disagree about the outtake label here is the fact that GNR was working on two albums simultaneously. You wouldn't label Use Your Illusion II as outtakes from Use Your Illusion I would you?

[bicycle handgrenade]

Except these songs are written and almost completed with other artists.

ABSUЯD was written by Axl, Dizzy, Slash and Duff. Axl and Dizzy wrote the initial ideas for the song and then Slash and Duff added ideas when they rejoined the band.

Hard Skool was written by various members both new and old. Chris Weber co-wrote Reckless Life and Move to the City, but they're still GNR songs.

[Bodhi]

GN'R has left songs off albums for reasons that certain people choose to ignore. Calling these songs leftovers just shows the biased ignorance.

Don't Cry wasn't on Appetite, and not due to its quality. Just like certain songs were left off Chinese. If you have more songs than fits on the album, you save some for later. Maybe you don't want to have more slow songs on an album. So you save some for later (Don't Cry, November Rain).

The Use Your Illusion albums contain many "AFD leftovers" and I've yet to see anyone being bothered by that, as much as these recent singles.



/jarmo

Except these songs are written and almost completed with other artists.

Yes current or now former Guns N Roses members.  They were in the band at the time , these aren’t random people off the street. 

[sky dog]

Outtake is the proper description. Bob Dylan has a ton of incredible songs that weren’t on the album they were recording for. Sometimes outtakes can be better than the tracks on the album.

The reason I'd disagree about the outtake label here is the fact that GNR was working on two albums simultaneously. You wouldn't label Use Your Illusion II as outtakes from Use Your Illusion I would you?

Completely different because they finished all the tracks and used them all at same time.

Plans are meaningless if not executed. Outtake is not a put down.

November Rain, Don’t Cry and Back Off Bitch were AFD outtakes.

[bicycle handgrenade]

Completely different because they finished all the tracks and used them all at same time.

Plans are meaningless if not executed. Outtake is not a put down.

November Rain, Don’t Cry and Back Off Bitch were AFD outtakes.

You may not intend outtakes as a put down, but generally speaking "outtakes" is to refer to songs that weren't good enough or didn't make the cut for an album. Not songs that were intended for a different album in the future.

Shadow of Your Love is an outtake from Appetite, November Rain isn't. November Rain wasn't recorded for Appetite because it was decided to record it for a future album instead. Shadow of Your Love was recorded and didn't make the cut and used as a b-side.

[sky dog]

6 to one Half Dozen to another! I’m just glad they are formally releasing these songs.

[cineater]

6 to one Half Dozen to another! I’m just glad they are formally releasing these songs.

Agree there.  The band has been producing/working as a performing act but it's good to have them back as putting out music whether I like it or not.  I'll always have an interest in what this band is doing.  That's never going to fade away.

   Okay, Dead reference there but they don't do space and drums and that's a major plus for them.

[sky dog]

Perhaps is solid and I think the lyrics are great. Axl showing contrition and empathy to others and himself….very impressed.

[MrMojoRa]

Perhaps is solid and I think the lyrics are great. Axl showing contrition and empathy to others and himself….very impressed.

Exactly on point with how I feel about Perhaps. It has made me appreciate Hard Skool & Absurd even more and has pulled me back into playing CD daily.

[DeadHorse]

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1513648772798987&set=gm.10160529143510091&idorvanity=2346615090


Is this an official statement from the band?

Because it is written that Perhaps is a new single written and recorded by Axl, Slash and Duff, this year. and that is just not true.

The statement came in a press release from Audacy. Not sure if it came from the band, or from that company. It also appeared on gnrmerch.com and was modified there - it now reads:

"Guns N’ Roses return with a single entitled “Perhaps” out now via Geffen Records. It stands out as the legendary rock band’s first release since 2021. The 7” includes the R-Side, “The General.”"

It no longer mentions songwriting credits. Slash may get a songwriting credit in the end because he added guitar parts. The band has always tinkered with songs for years. Nothing new.

Thank you, I just do not understand why Slash would get credit for writing guitar parts when he did not get them in Estranged for instance.

Actually in the anniversary release of the Use You Illusions albums Slash does in fact get writing credits for Estranged. As does Duff and |Izzy (that should male you happy)

[sky dog]

Mr Mojo, Damn, same here….I’ve rotated all the “Chinese” officially released songs for the last two days. As each song comes out you have more respect for the variety of songs those guys were creating. You also have more respect for Axl and his ability to go from one genre to another.

I’m happy we are getting more and more of whatever his vision was. The only two projects that didn’t flesh out, that are comparable to Chinese, are The Who “Lifehouse” and The Beach Boys “Smile”. Lifehouse turned in to Who’s Next (9 songs) and Smile turned in to Smiley Smile (11 songs).

Both projects released a lot of songs from the recording sessions that are classics in their catalog.

[PermissionToLand]

It's funny that this is being tied into the "redemption arc" for Axl when the lyrics were written in 2000. 

I don't know how much I'd read into the lyrics. They aren't particularly clear in their message, or who it's directed at. Some lines seem directed at himself, but others are clearly not. Like other songs (Sorry comes to mind), he keeps his cards close to his chest in terms of who or what the songs are really about.

[jarmo]

Except these songs are written and almost completed with other artists.

LOL

Does it bother you that much that Izzy didn't write it?

Reckless Life was written and completed with other artists. Do you dislike the song?




/jarmo

[sky dog]

The simple fact is that all those songs were written and performed under Guns recording contract with Geffen/Universal.

A lot people were involved!

[GNR4LIFEJD]

These are definitely NOT new songs, since we have had access to the original demos, we have heard them, at least for some years so far.

These are NEW songs just because they got leaked years ago when we were never supposed to hear them doesn't mean they are not NEW. Slash does not have an ego when you consider the fact he knows how much playing the Chidem songs means to axl and how much effort he put into those songs.

As I have stated GNR fans might be the most fickle fans iv seen because they put out new songs regardless of when they were initially created or who was initially on them and people complain. I think some of the people that come here must have loved the years of absolutely nothing no new songs, no touring, Slash & Duff come back still not enough.

[Guitar1281]

It's a damn shame Use Your Illusion contained songs like Live and Let Die and Knockin on Heaven's Door. Slash and Duff (and IZZY!) didn't write those songs and just played guitar/bass parts that other musicians did before!

[PermissionToLand]

Hell, Slash released a song in 2014 that was already released as a demo in 2010. Nobody complained about that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsKj9t1t_r0&pp=ygUOc2xhc2ggZGVtbyAjMTY%3D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAiKqqWfW2U&pp=ygUQc2xhc2ggc2FmYXJpIGlubg%3D%3D

[jarmo]

Remember in 2005 when Izzy released a song called Bomb with a riff that sounded like Do It For The Kids by Velvet Revolver that was released in 2004?





/jarmo

[gcluskey]

Remember in 2005 when Izzy released a song called Bomb with a riff that sounded like Do It For The Kids by Velvet Revolver that was released in 2004?

Izzy has another song 'Bombs Away' that has a hint of Bad Obsession going on





/jarmo

[Steve McKagan]

Remember in 2005 when Izzy released a song called Bomb with a riff that sounded like Do It For The Kids by Velvet Revolver that was released in 2004?





/jarmo

Recorded in 2003.... but doesn't really matter. Both are great rockers.

[Oliver]

Remember two weeks ago when Neil Young released an album recorded in the 70´s?

[jarmo]

Recorded in 2003.... but doesn't really matter. Both are great rockers.

Sure.

But both songs written and recorded by different artists. Wonder if it bothers Carlos that both songs sound so similar and VR released theirs first...





/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Exactly on point with how I feel about Perhaps. It has made me appreciate Hard Skool & Absurd even more and has pulled me back into playing CD daily.

Haha.  Same.

Whenever any leaks would come out, I would always be drawn back into a CD rabbit hole for a week or two.

[D-GenerationX]

But both songs written and recorded by different artists. Wonder if it bothers Carlos that both songs sound so similar and VR released theirs first...

Carlos just wants it to be 1988 in perpetuity.

I get the feeling he'd take 1991, in a pinch.  But nothing after that.