Here Today... Gone To Hell!

http://fogonazos.blogspot.com/2007/02/hiroshima-pictures-they-didnt-want-us_05.html

attention Graphic imagery.

Please do NOT try to justify the bomb with your classical " it ended the war, it could have been worse " - there are too many recent exemples in international crisis involving the usa that just blow that escuse away.


PEACE

Yeah, it saved lives.

Its now been shown Japan offered to surrender long before the bombs fell - all this talk about the lives an invasion would have cost is nonsense, Japan was finished and would have surrendered with nothing more than a blockade

The main reason the bombs were dropped was as a negotiating ploy with the Soviet Union, and obviously to see what damage they could do - the US refused to arrange a testing for Japanese observers to convince them to give up

When u consider the bombs did less damage and killed less people than a regular bomber mission there wasnt even a tactical reason for doing it



who's?

Oh wait, there was going to be a huge invasion in 1946 - and what pray tell, would the Japanese have used against the Americans without any remaining oil? Horse drawn tanks? They didnt even have cities left by that point

and here's a fact for u

Curtis Lemay head of the USAF in the pacific was ordered in early 1945 to save two cities for ''special treatment'' - Nagaski was chosen whn the geography of the initial target was deemed as liabel to contain damage - those bombs were going down on Japan reagrdless of the military situation

I dont understand? You *know* what would have happened?
Will you sacrifice your mom, dad and little sister in order to save 50 strangers?

Tell me more about your train of thoughts.

Izzy: Yeah, horse drawn tanks and with kamikazeplanes lifted to the air with hot air baloons and the the landtroops would be the legendary samurais.

Whatever: Well, maybe my dad.

think before you say something stupid

I usually hit first, just ask anybody  : ok:

Ohwell what is done is done. I personally beleave we did the right thing, listening to my grandfathers tales of being a prisoner of war and surviving the Bataan Death March. Japanese soldiers where savage animals.

No where does it mention that the Japanese attacked the U.S. FIRST.    ::)

Yeah, well these civillians had nothing to do with it.

There were some wicked pics about T?ernobyl, about the people working to seal the meltdown reactor. That's sad too, since most of those men didn't know they were going to die soon.

We've been planning to rent some bike's and drive through the area with a friend or two.

So you understand al-quaida wanting to kill the people in NYC ? Those savage fat americans ? right ?
Just want to make sure, you're not speaking under the emotion.

Nor did the civillians at Pearl Harbour.

NOPE!

What the hell does that have to do with the killing during World War 2?

How are we FAT SAVAGE AMERICANS?

I do not see us Brutally killing PRISONERS OF WAR!

true enough.

I just watched some pics of the civillians russians killed during the winter war back in 1939. Well the girls we're raped first, that's when they gave guns to families at the border towns.

Here's a nice fact about casualties tho;
Finland:
26,662 dead
39,886 wounded
1,000 captured

Russia, or Soviet Union
126,875 dead or missing
264,908 wounded
3,100 captured

Are you referring Americans to al-quaida?

I think that's a bit low.

Even tho what happened in Hiroshima isn't nice it happened when two nations were at war.

These terror-acts.. well it's sneaky and cowardly, kinda like some people, who don't have the guts to fight you and try to hurt you some other ways.

Don't forget the Jewish casualties.

Well.
where can i begin ... here.

I guess i'll let you guys re-read what you wrote.

It goes from a calm, wise, polite writing of "these japanese soldiers were savages ", and " i'm sorry, we had to do it ... "
Very dramatic effect, The deep voice, the wise eyes.

To anger and wrath " NOPE !! IT IS NOT THE SAME THING !! "
- notice the use or caps, zman.


Terror-act ? are you sure it's not a war? Why can't it be a war?
So there are *rules* in war? Really ?

clearly it was an excuse for them to test a new weapon......on real targets.

Just like every tragedy, very few of them happen for the reasons given....just look at all the various theories on 9/11

after read sin cut and zman, i guess i didnt attract the right person in this thread ... damn it.
i thought i only had to look out for the trollish walk comments ... i guess it's not that easy.

Izzy, i think you need to read up on your history more - the japanese were going to fight till the last man.  they were training civilian armys to fight with sharpened bamboo sticks.  the estimated casulties on the allies side (not just the US - the brits would have suffered terribly as well) were through the room. 

Contrary to what many people think, it wasn't really the bomb that ended the pacific war, but the firebombing campaigns the US carried out (which were just as devastating as nukes).  The firebomb campaign was literally wiping out cities, killing thousands at at time.  With or without nukes, the fire bomb campaign was so devastating it would have ended the war.

showing graphic pictures is a nice way to play on peoples emotions, but it doesn't tell the whole story.  Read up on how the japanese killed/raped the chinese for years.  the same civilians in the pictures wat-ever posted celebrated the kiling and raping of the chinese.

its ugly, but its war.  we can all agree its brutal and savage - but to say "oh they shouldn't have done it" is just narrow minded and naieve.  maybe they should have thought about the repurcussions before they bombed pearl harbor. 

Got any pics of that to show wat-ever???

and those pics are hardly "ones they don't want us to see"  who is "they" anyways?  :rofl:   I would bet all of those were published years ago.  some look very familiar - i think TIME magazine had a big article on the bomb a while ago.

Im not *using* the pics, it was just a reason for us to talk about it.

Please do not fall, like zman did, in the contest of who suffered the most. You see where it gets us in Palestine.
Or who's the nastiest.

I pretty much think you're smart enough to know that the chain of reaction did not *end with the war*.
Just like History did not stop with the the USA helping the Talibans
Just like History did not stop with the fall of saddam.

If war is ugly. Then 911 was a normal thing.

And again, you are not seeing the big picture.
The whole existence of the Bomb is that it HAS to be used as a deterrence weapon.
If not you can let some countries (iran???) think that it can be used. Although they know more than you think.
USA is, and was, the only country to do not reserve the Bomb to deterrence.
USA think that the Bomb is normal weapon.
They don't think about repercussion.
That is why you guys got 2 planes in the head
You cannot think ahead 2 days.

I mean really.

An enemy's savagery does not justify targeting innocent civilians. ?Peace motherfuckers. ? :peace:

Well said and beat me to the punch.

Thats because there own government carried out the attack to give them reasons to go to war, and pass laws on terrorism which take away alot of public privacy.


---
However, i still do believe these muslim extremists need to be  dealt with, especially the ones in england cause they are more likely to take over here then they are in america.

i love how you tell us to calm down and not get all angry and nasty - yet you feel the need to bring up 9-11 and say things like "we got 2 planes in the head".  If you want to have a normal discussion then you should take your own advice.  maybe you should think ahead before you say such assinine things - dont act like you don't know saying certain things isn't going to piss off people.  i would THINK you are smarter then that, but i'm probably giving you to much credit.

you are thinking like someone living in 2007, not 1945.  its easy for you to say NOW that the bomb should have been a deterrent, back then nobody could even comprehend a weapon like that.  The japenese were warned that we had a very very powerful weapon, they didn't heed the warning.  the bomb is a deterrent NOW b/c we have seen the devastation it can cause.

as i've said before, the US didn't even need the bomb.  the firebomb campaigns were almost, if not MORE effective then the nuke.

If I am not seeing the whole picture please explain.

So us dropping the Atomic Bomb is the reason why we had 2 planes to the head?

Nah, nothing is tied. Don't worry. Do not wake up. Everything is all separated.
We got the Russians out of afgahnistan. That has NOTHING to do with 911.

Questions:
Does the Savagery of the ennemy explains the bomb?
Are civilians worth dying in the war?
DO you understand that al-quaida was hitting the governement when they bombe the towers?
Are there rules in war?
Are terrorists acts war acts?
The bomb, the civilian dead, Does it bother you ethically?
Would you kill 2 loved ones to save 50 other people?
Do the atrocity of japanese escuse your atrocities?

How are you going to handle the fact that a lot of countries have the bomb now?

That i agree with. 1945 was a different time.
I wanted to talk about the bomb, in relation to what is going on with Iran now.
So i agree with you.

About the harsh comments.
Dont be a fool. American patriots arent the last one to say harsh things about sub-races and the *ennemy*
Do people talk calmly about alquaida? No.

So if we can discuss cold heartly about the deads in japan, we can discuss about the deads in the towers.
If the deads in Hiroshima are just a parameter of the war, a way of ending it.
The dead in the towers are merely unamed numbers that serve the war on imperialism.
nope?

Just read the first page.
See how people go from coldhearted analysis on Hiroshima to fervish angerish comment on 911 !!

see?

I agree.

Japan played the game and payed the price.

Sounds like An Episode of 24, will jack kill his father and brother to save thousands from a nuclear bomb? watch the next episode of 24, sundays, sky one.

Dude you are totally buggin.

I have never seen 24 :(
zman > your participation has been grandly appreciated, you can go now ;)

The pictures where that persons shawdow and the ladders shadow next to him were imprinted on the wall is just amazing.

your last post is so full of hypocrisy, its just laughable.  you say you want to talk about the bomb and Iran, so whats that got to do with 9-11?!?!?!?
Who has said anything cold hearted about japanese civilians?  I didn't read anything like "those jap bastards got two nukes to the head".  YOU are the only one calling people a "fool", the one making emotionally triggering statements and then you have the nerve to tell them not to get angry.  Get off your high horse.

you want an intelligent discussion but you are incapable of doing so.  your rambling rant is all over the place with no coherent meaning, just a lot of american bashing and 9-11 talk.  If I need to tell you that 9-11 was about 5 years ago, and hiroshima/nagasaki were over 50 years ago (when none of us were even alive i'd imagine) and you can't see the difference between discussing the two in terms of emotion, then you're a bigger idiot then I ever thought possible!!!  sheesh!  :confused:

show some common sense and some respect for gods sake.  i dont mind you talking about 9-11 or other recent events, but you can do so with some respect.

Dropping the bomb saved US and Allied lives.

Have you seen the pictures of Pearl Harbor. How about the thousands of sailors that drowned in there docked boats.

Well I had a uncle who was there in the service and it was not a pleasent site. Ask a WWII veteren that served in the pacific theater what they think about the bomb or a inland invasion of japan.

The japanese solders were a feirce force to mess with, becuase they had no fear of dying. (modern day terorist took a page out of the history book and know the kamakasi was a major blow to the minds of people)

Did you ever read up on the torture the japanese did to tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

Also it has been recently stated that there were thousands of jet planes and rockets being manufactured underground in japan. If the war would not of ended when it did the end result might have been much diffrent.


War is not pretty, but when you are at war you need to do what is needed to WIN or come to a conclusion.

We are not capable of ever having a war with a desired result again.

It is not a football game with time out, the media, the politics, PC have turned war into a soap opera, where real lives still die and more will continue to die
I'm not a pro war, but I feel if your going to put troops and innocent people in harms way, do what you have to do and get it done. (no this does not mean drop a nuclear bomb ever time or ever again)

I have multiple relatives or freinds how have been in afganastan and iraq and there biggest complaint is there is no real objective. You can not have troops just standing around like pollice men becasue they are not. And the real enemy does not wear a uniform he can be anybody and he is a guy one second with a kid walking with him and the next shooting Ak at you or your partner. More solders have died to a kamkasi type explosion or assualt or road side bombs then actual fighting.

And no I do not think the iraq war was justified nor do I think it will ever end they way it was intended. I did vote for bush and at the time I bought the story of WMD but not anymore, BUT if we are there now let our guys get it DONE. The only thing we achecived was creating another unstable country in the middle east, that in the long run could mean bigger problems years from now.

Ok a rambled in many directions sorry.

The pictures show a harsh warning for the future should the current political climate not change. The Hiroshima bomb whilst being absolutely devestating is tiny compared to Nuclear warheads from within the UK, USA, Russia, China, Korea etc.

On a side note, to the American posters, (USA being a country I love, visit 3/4 times a yr) The USA didn't win WW2 on it's own. The British soldiers and other allies played a huge part. Go forward 60 years to Iraq, you hear the American posters, "we kicked Iraq's ass" etc..? ?It's the British soldiers that are in the shit storm there, stationed in the worst area's. Give your Allies the respect they deserve...PLEASE

who wasn't giving them respect?  i mentioned in a previous post how casulties for both US AND british troops would have been high if the war in the pacific had continued.  The war in the pacific was largely fought by the US though...

60 years from now i doubt ANYONE will be saying the US kicked any ass at all in Iraq.  we'll probably not want to talk about it at all to be honest.  it'll be a black mark on our history for decades to come.  its a disgrace.

I agree 100% with your 60 year comment.  It will be looked at along the lines of veitnam.

I respect your reply 100%. However as I am sure you can appreciate your views on the coalition both past and present are not held as the majority of other somewhat naive Americans. Again no offence meant, it's simply my opinion for what it's worth.

If you read the posts on the forum where the Pics are hosted, who will read some of the posts and be as ashamed as I am.

I think that anyone reading this topic and veiwed the hosted pictures will have no doubt that unless the world's leaders can focus their minds for the immediate future, there are some serious problems around the corner.

No offence taken, there are ignorant people in every country/society.  I know one Parisian in particular who falls under that category  :rofl:

Agreed, the world is heading for one major shit storm  :nervous:

I was referring to 60 yrs from WW2. Although the way it was interpreted gives an equal statement of fact.

aslong as people dont repeat the attitudes to the soldiers they gave to the ones from vietnam.

Unfortunetly, I think our solders feel they have been abanoned already by our leaders and regardless of what people think, they are doing a job they were sent to do and when the people do not support that job it makes them feel like they are not supported.

You can not train a solder to hunt, kill, defend, attack and then send them into Iraq and tell them stand here and look good, remember the terms of engagement, while some dumb fucking terrorist drives by in a car, stops at a light and has his passenger who sits in the back seat with a front seat being a shooting bench for him to sniper our guys. The solder slumps over as traffic then moves again and drives off. You can not fight a war like that.

It is time to leave the country or cleanse the area, take that how ever any of you want to take it. I have seen way to many videos of our guys dieng by a road side bomb or some sniper in a car.

especially when a certain country cannot seem to be able to supply our troops with necessary, current and essential military weapons, clothing and  equipment.  But its fine to plunge ahead with the Olympics budget (spiralling out of control) and waste money on ridiculous government schemes.

I dont support the war - but seeing as we are in the thick of it - I do support our soldiers that are there - and despise the fact that some are dying due to incompetancy from the MoD.

It is a very interesting point to think how this will be looked back on in another 50 years or so - lets only hope that learning comes of mistakes....

You must love these discussion where you're own point of view disagrees with the others.

Terrorism isn't a war, search wikipedia or something if you don't believe. That's why it's called terrorism. Or did you hear any declaration of war before the towers?

If you want more point of views go ask someone who has actually been in a war so maybe you can figure that one out.

As for the japanese being savages, just think how far or low would you go when defending your fatherland? And how much would your morals drop?

As far as the pics go; what are you trying to say?
If you do a search on WW2 or something, do you think the pics would turn out any less horrid?

re read. > " apanese soldiers where savage animals " ... ?i read jap soldiers, therefore japs.

I'm just reflecting the usual method some person use. It shows how awful it is. Thanks.

Actually not. It has a lot to do.
the 911 compareason is about how you handle crisis.
the Iran issue is on the bomb and its meaning / deterrence.

I totally respect these people and these events. I was simply showing how a way of thinking that can be outrageous is usually used by the ones saying that it is outrageous.
Do i need to collect the hudreds of harsh comments on the ennemy of the united states?


So yeah we can calm down.
You are pointing the fact that you can analyze a fact 50 years from now. And see Iraq as a failure.
But, you see Hiroshima as a succees and something that had to be done. Yes?
And your main argument is that if it didnt happen, it would have been worse.
You dont know that. Nothing can prove it. Analysis have proved it right, and prove it wrong. We dont know.

If you had carpet bombes iraq and killed all the civilians and spared many americans soldiers live, you would have call it a success?

Hiroshima was a mistake
Ethically : i dont need to explain on that thing. Any educated person will agree.
Strategically : on the long term. It created tensions in the world.
And, worst for you, is that it took the Bomb to a level where it shouldnt be : a normal weapon.

History does not stop. The USA used the bomb. What would refrain some crazy country to use it now?

It is in important point here.
Reading what some here write emphazise it. USA think the bomb is a normal weapon.
I need to save lives. I can do it with the bomb. I do it. This is a stupid way to think.
It only cost 300k civilians lives then.
Nowadays it could cost a continent.


Again, i personnaly feel that you guys have it this way
an act of violence from the USA : is an act of war
an act of violence from an ennemy : is an outrageaous savage thing
am i right or am i right?
 :P


So no need to get angry.
No need to call names.

Only happens here or in america  ;D

oh man, we wish it would be that easy. Reap up bush's speeches, he thinks like you.

Of what? how war sucks?
War is an option.
It is needed sometimes.
It, nevertheless, the worst case scenario and usually have HUGE impact on the future.
I'm sorry to break your heart, but a bomb does not end anything.
Just like punches rarely ends a fights. Ask lawyers.

Works for the americans too or just japanese?

i know, it wasnt the point, i just tripped on the site that's all. these talks are the point.

Of course this turns into an Iraq debate anti USA thread.

If people remember their history, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. They were the aggressors who started it.

War is not civil and not pretty.

I visited Hiroshima back in 1990. It was deeply emotional experience that made me cry. The thing that overwhelmed me the most was the extraordinary amount of love that I felt from the Japanese people in the Peace Park for having the courage to go there. Alot of people were taking my picture and a little Japanese boy and I rang the peace bell together. I saw all of these pictures and they said that nothing would grow in Hiroshima for 50 years. As I walked around the city I had this huge epiphany that since this city had been rebuilt, God's power to rebuild a burned out city is greater than man's ability to destroy the Earth. if you ever see the Atomic Dome, the metal skeleton will be etched in your memory forever.

Give me a break wat-ever....above is your original post.  What in the world does any of that have to do with Iran/9-11. NOTHING.  you posted graphic, emotional pictures to get a rise out of people so you could have a platform to bash America, just like you always do.

grow up.

"recent exemples in international crisis involving the usa" - HAHAHA like what?  when/where have we threated to nuke anyone!??!?!

if anything, we are trying to STOP terrorist supporting nations from getting the nukes you despise so much in the first place!   You don't make any sense....as usual.

How do you want me to discuss with you if you say " you don't make any sense".
I can't. It would easy for me to say the same thing.
But no. I try to understand
You point out arguments in favor of the bomb. How it can solve a crisis. i Disagree.
i refer to many recent events that shows how such method do not help, but make things worse.

I wanna discuss iran and the bomb as it is linked (the bomb, the meaning of it, the use of it). You want to remove any link.
Of course it is easy to suppress links between issues because it makes them easier to understand
It makes them black or white.
Of course it's easier to tell the other person he makes no sense. It helps you protect your point of view from relativising.

The way you answered my other threads, shows that it serves you to see me as " anti semitic terrorist who makes no sense" because it protects your point of view. i understand that.

good point HannaHat.  : ok:


 Countries like Iran are more likely to use nukes or sell them/give them to a 3rd party who would use them VS long established nuclear powers.

Countries such as the USA, China and Russia could not realistically use a nuclear weapon now. Too much repercussions to consider should their populations even allow their government to use them.

But does a country has the right to protect itself againts a nuclear armed neighbor? I ask.

Iran should NOT have nukes. Military process there should be forbiden.
nevertheles. the region (if not the world) needs to be cleaned up from nukes. There are several coutries who has some.

I would like to understand how countries like China, Russia or USA are an example of self tempered countries ? please tell me.
The fact that you put these countries in the same bag is amusing.

does anybody else see the irony of a 23 year old from FRANCE telling us about military strategy?

Thank you. You can leave now ;)

That is why i stopped posting it is one sided ..................his.

Wow france  didn't the USA liberate france.

why because I am right?  France is the LAST...let me say that again the LAST country on EARTH that should be giving out military advice....your country is the most ungrateful country on this planet after all the United States has done for you....it makes me sick...but then again it totally reinforces every single bad thing I hear about Chirac and the rest of your country when I read the garbage you have been posting on this board.....you have absolutely ZERO knowledge about World War 2 and your first post is a perfect example of it....why dont you guys just stick to dropping your guns and waiting for America to solve all your problems....

Yes you right. France sucks.
Can you go now?

hmm I see you guys post just like you fight wars...tell me how did the Germans respond to "Ok you have invaded and conquered us, can you go now?"

Can we go back on the subject of the use of a nuclear bomb?
and the methods that can be used to resolve regional crisis?

ps: wal-mart is open! go !

I've done more than enough readng on this subject :)

Japan was finished, they knew it, we knew it - but they had a lot of pride and wanted to surrender with a few terms in place, i.e no occupation - US said it was unconditional all the way.

The US prepared for an invasion but wouldn't have been anywhere near ready before early to mid '46 - now the chances Japan would have held on even till the end of 1945 is laughable

The allies murdered all those people over small print - and because they couldn't be bothered to wait a few months. A blockade would not have cost lives

I'll say again - Japan had NO OIL. They had nothing to fight with - Kamikazee missions were born of a reality they couldn't afford to spare fuels for return trips.....

There was no prospect of an invasion

and bamboo sticks? Oh no! :hihi: :rofl: I'd feel sorry for the army that fought tanks with bamboo!


Not really - Japan's industry was limited and not focused in the cities - destroying a load of wooden homes wasn't really achieving anything....of course given time it would have ended the war through simply exterminating the civilian population :nervous:


not sure how that justifies our own actions - two wrongs make a right?



so a civilian populace is responsible for the action of the controlling regime?

If Mugabe in Zimbawe invades...Angola...tommorow and kills a few milliom would it be okay to go and exterminate every darn civilian we can find in Zimbawe?

oh one last point: look into when the Soviet Union started looking east and when the nukes fell on Japan

You'll notice something.

America was afraid the Russians would invade first and needed to get Japan finished....immedietly.

The bombs fell as the US and USSR 'met' for the first time - and its in that context this has to be viewed - nonsense about stopping an invasion is neither here nor there

you are questioning America's war record..and I am trying to FIND Frances....whats the problem? ?If America had the same attitude as France we would all have blue eyes and blonde hair and be speaking German...get back on the subject?? I am still tearing apart your FIRST post on here...i havent even gotten to the rest of them...its going to be a long day.....

Apparently it's only "ugly but this is war" on one side.

There are many parameters here.
The extremism of the response. (pearl harbor > nukes)
The simplicity of the answer. (nuclear bombs must end the war)
The unilateralism of the action. (fight against " irrational evil")

These parameters can easily be found in the methods used years later in many warfield.
Crisis that involved the same actor, and led to the same issues: worsening the issue.

But it seems that one party here is so deepluy engaged in a mental mechanic of protection, that they just CANNOT re-evaluate their analysis.

what i read here could be summed up by
" Japan played the game and payed the price. " - actual quote
What i want to know is, are you able to reverse that though and apply the same reasoning to something that happens to america?


JohnSDMF > i said you can go ! go play !? ;D

You really like to try and put us in a profile?


If you're talking about the bomb, I think you're wrong. Since with these kind of weapons anyone will think twice before invading.


You think you're funny , don't you?

Here's some free advice;
Grow up.

do not get angry, there is no need to.

i didnt meant the bomb, i meant the same actor and way of handling issues.

The use of the bomb did accelerate the need of other countries to get equiped
That is why France and many other countries have it now.
Stability can be reached if the weapon is only used as a deterrence object.

My first point was to question the use of the nuclear weapon in the absolute
it can lead to questioning any extreme action in handling an issue : this is where we get to iran and iraq.

i dont wanna fight with you guys.
I know it's easier to hate and define the other person as "anti semitic and crazy"
i just want you to get to a point where you can question methods.

im studying to be a history teacher, and pearl harbor was one of the worst things that happened to our country. bombing hiroshima was one of the only things we could do, and im glad we did it. you look at those pictures and say their horrible, but go watch pearl harbor documentaries, and see the horrors that our country went through. we were justified in doing that. we were attacked first on our soil, with our ships just at a total standstill. many innocent lives were taken, it was the only thing we could do. how about for some of you to be on americas side once in a while, and not the other countries?

The way it was handled was probably not the best, but we had our policy of anything to preserve American lives (and win). And who knows what other countries would've challenged the US had we not shown off our power? Sounds pretty harsh and it is, but post WW II USA is the safest place there has arguably ever been in the world.

At least Japan knew we were in a war with them. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were attacks that preceded any declaration of war and at least in Pearl Harbor's case was totally unprovoked.

I am on americas side on many thing, starting with WW2.
And the central africa.
many things.

Again, you cannot justify a horror by another horror.
it would like counting the deads and saying "one american dead , 5000 japs " ...

anyway
i'm off watching Robert Altman's Player. good movie.
i hope i didnt stress you guys too much, i just wanted to talk out this issue and check your point of view :)

PEACE to all of you.

not sure if thats 100% true, bin laden, if i'm not mistaken, DID declare war on the US before 9-11.

the Japanese most certainly didn't.

Arguing on a music forum about anything accomplishes nothing! We all feel different about this sore subject, period.

I wouldn't exactly say Pearl Harbor was unprovoked.  As written by historian Robert Stinnett...

The raid on Pearl Harbor took the U.S. Pacific Fleet by surprise, but back in Washington, the Roosevelt administration was fully aware of the coming onslaught.  Comprehensive research has not only shown Washington knew in advance of the attack, but deliberately withheld its foreknowledge from our commanders in Hawaii in the hope that the 'surprise attack would catapult the U.S. into World War II.'

Oliver Lyttleton, British Minister of Production, stated in 1944: 'Japan was provoked into attacking America at Pearl Harbor. It is a travesty of history to say that America was forced into the war.' Roosevelt's intentions were nearly exposed in 1940 when Tyler Kent, a code clerk at the U.S. embassy in London, discovered secret dispatches between Roosevelt and Churchill. These revealed that FDR - despite contrary campaign promises - was determined to engage America in the war. Kent smuggled some of the documents out of the embassy, hoping to alert the American public - but was caught. With U.S. government approval, he was tried in a secret British court and confined to a British prison until the war's end.

Roosevelt knew that if Japan went to war with the United States, Germany and Italy would be compelled to declare war on America - thus entangling us in the European conflict by the back door. As Harold Ickes, secretary of the Interior, said in October 1941: 'For a long time I have believed that our best entrance into the war would be by way of Japan.'

Roosevelt's plan to provoke Japan began with a memorandum from Lieutenant Commander Arthur H. McCollum, head of the Far East desk of the Office of Naval Intelligence. The memorandum advocated eight actions predicted to lead Japan into attacking the United States. McCollum wrote: 'If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better.' FDR enacted all eight of McCollum's provocative steps and more. After meeting with President Roosevelt on October 16, 1941, Secretary of War Henry Stimson wrote in his diary: 'We face the delicate question of the diplomatic fencing to be done so as to be sure Japan is put into the wrong and makes the first bad move - overt move.' On November 25th, the day before the ultimatum was sent to Japan's ambassadors, Stimson wrote in his diary: 'The question was how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into the position of firing the first shot.'

The bait offered to Japan was our Pacific Fleet. In 1940, Admiral J.O. Richardson, the fleet's commander, flew to Washington to protest FDR's decision to permanently base the fleet in Hawaii instead of its normal berthing on the U.S. West Coast. The admiral had sound reasons: Pearl Harbor was vulnerable to attack.  Richardson was quickly relieved of command. Replacing him was Admiral Husband E. Kimmel.

As Washington watched Japan preparing to assault Pearl Harbor, Admiral Kimmel, as well as his Army counterpart in Hawaii, General Walter C. Short, were completely sealed off from the information pipeline.  One of the most important elements in America's foreknowledge of Japan's intentions was our government's success in cracking Japan's secret diplomatic code known as 'Purple.' Tokyo used it to communicate to its embassies and consulates, including those in Washington and Hawaii. The code was so complex that it was enciphered and deciphered by machine. A talented group of American cryptoanalysts broke the code in 1940 and devised a facsimile of the Japanese machine. These, utilized by the intelligence sections of both the War and Navy departments, swiftly revealed Japan's diplomatic messages. The deciphered texts were nicknamed 'Magic.' Copies of Magic were always promptly delivered in locked pouches to President Roosevelt, and the secretaries of State, War, and Navy. They also went to Army Chief of Staff General George Marshall and to the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Harold Stark. However, although three Purple decoding machines were allotted to Britain, none were sent to Pearl Harbor. Intercepts of ciphered messages radioed between Tokyo and its Honolulu consulate had to be forwarded to Washington for decrypting. Thus Kimmel and Short, the Hawaiian commanders, were at the mercy of Washington for feedback. A request for their own decoding machine was rebuffed on the grounds that diplomatic traffic was of insufficient interest to soldiers.

How untrue that was! On October 9, 1941, the War Department decoded a Tokyo-to-Honolulu dispatch instructing the Consul General to divide Pearl Harbor into five specified areas and to report the exact locations of American ships therein. There is nothing unusual about spies watching ship movements, but reporting precise whereabouts of ships in dock has only one implication. Charles Willoughby, Douglas MacArthur's chief of intelligence later wrote that the 'reports were on a grid system of the inner harbor with coordinate locations of American men of war - coordinate grid is the classical method for pinpoint target designation; our battleships had suddenly become targets.' This information was never sent to Kimmel or Short.

After the attack, on the Sunday evening of December 7, 1941, Roosevelt had a brief meeting in the White House with Edward R. Murrow, the famed journalist, and William Donovan, the founder of the Office of  Strategic Services.  Later Donovan told an assistant the he believed FDR welcomed the attack and didn't seem surprised. The only thing Roosevelt seemed to care about, Donovan felt, was if the public would now support a declaration of war.

All this discussion for what, just to get everybody stirred up.

Bombs away

(http://www.coolsmilies.net/angry/blowup.gif)


I'm going back to the has anything happend yet threads or where is AXl? :rofl:

Watever, you are not telling the whole story.  The Japanese offered to surrender before the bombs...but it was not unconditional surrender.  What was required was an unconditional surrender, and the A-bombs brought just that. 

I am constantly amazed at revisionist historians who want to make us feel guilty for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  They were absolutely necessary.  They saved Japanese and Allied forces' lives...the majority of Allied forces being Americans.  War sucks.  War is ugly.  But, you should thank your lucky stars we came out on top in WW2. 

Mutually Assured Destruction has kept us pretty damn safe for 60+ years.  Here's to 60+ more!   :beer:  :beer:  :beer:

alas the posts im loking for are gone to the graveyard


it was funny too cause me and izzy actualy agreeded on something in em


and u know what it was actually about boming japan too.......


ohhhhh well....... found some great night train bashing posts... lol

to the people that think that what we did was wrong then. I hope you know that if those slant eyed mother fuckers (-.-) had the technology we did they would have done it to us. For God sake they took off our guys finger nails and they made our guys in there camps starve, thirst, and if you didn't march they'd kill you. If you looked at them wrong they kill you. If you did any thing remotely wrong they'd kill you.

I went to the Pearl Harbor memorial about 3 or 4 years ago and there were more japs there than americans and they were the rudist fucks you'd ever see. You'd start to look at something like in a display and they'd push you out of the way. Then if you tried to get your spot back they'd just stare at you with there beady little eyes. They were rude as hell

So do i think it was wrong to do that Hell No. If it was me there whole country would be gone course i wasn't born yet and FDR was in the hot seet so that was his choice and i stand by it 100% even though i wasn't born untill the 90s.

but through time we learn. Ya know they learned cause they haven't fucked with us in a long time :hihi:

JohnSDMF good........no GREAT postings on here i laughed my ass off :lmao: :rofl: reading your posts.

your right about the french being pussies see how that dude just kinda gave up :rofl: I think you won that war. But seriously those were the greatest posts i've read on here in a long time.

But remember that the french weren't always pussies they had Napoleon but he got greedy and hesitant at the battle of Waterloo. so in conclusion they had a great leader/ fighter once, but since then......nothing.




 :peace:

why are you all bashing one another. the purpose of those photos is to make people realise how much evil a nuke can do.

it doesn't matter who did it, why they did it, in what circumstances. does it matter now? why do you keep saying the japs had it coming, the bombs stopped the war bla bla bla...

the fact is the us wiped out two cities from the face of the earth. now we know what damage one bomb can do and we should to everything in our power to stop those bombs from being dropped. instead everybody tries to find excuses for their own country. just deal with it. every fucking country made mistakes in its history. no country is flawless. learn from your mistakes and move on.

a lot of nations lost thousands of people in that war. that's why it's called a world war. learn from it. don't start throwing shit at each other again.
everybody talks about world peace yet they're still developing bigger and better weapons.

concentrate on the problems from the present and leave the past to the past. learn from it but let it be gone.
why are we trying to blame the americans now when a lot of them weren't even born in 45?

and to get a little technical. after the first world war germany wasn't allowed to have an army for 90 years (read that again and do the math). and after 20 years they started another world war (not blaming them, we all know how it started). nobody saying shit about that, huh? where were all your countries when they should said: "look at what you've agreed 20 years ago" and kicked their ass in 39? i guess everybody's a hero after the war.

But he was banished in the end.

And he was short!

Thank you!!! I was gonna post the same thing, but yours is far more informative than anything I could have ever said.

Also, let's not pretend the US won WW2. Many other countries contributed just as much, if not more to WW2.

Your living in a dream world. You can't just look at the droppings of these bombs like "meh, we dropped a couple nukes on those 2 cities, moving on", but thats what your doing. You have to understand why we did it. Of course it matters. Sure we cant dwell on everything that went on in the past but we do have to remember what happened on that day, learn from it, even dwell on it a little bit, and mourn the lives that were lost. Its a pretty big deal man, you should realize that and not just rub it off your shoulders like its no big deal.

i said we should learn from that not rub it off our shoulders.

and i should understand why you did it? what could excuse erasing off the face of the world two entire cities? it happened and whatever people say now they can't make it right. what good does it do pointing fingers now after 60 years? make people feel better for having an excuse (for americans) or something to rub in americas face (for anti-americans)?

so you would exterminate the whole nation because you didn't like some of them? nice open racism. : ok:

It's not the bomb victims who maltreated captured solders.
As not every American was to blame for the bomb, not every Japanese was to blame for the pearl harbour.

the most of the victims of Hiroshima were civilians that had no say in the war. They didn't have the vote. they were just trying to save their asses by abiding by their military regime. Their fault, if anything, was that they were there then. And that they were the weak.
I'm not talking about the country. I'm talking about the people.

What if you were one of them? Would the bombing still right and proper?

It never should happen to any populace of any country.
But judging from some comments here, it may well happen again unfortunately. Cruelty rules this world.

@ Annie, you're brave. Even the pics of massacre scare the shit out of me. gruesome. So are many posts in this thread.

not to take away from the efforts of the US allies, but when it  comes to the war in the Pacific, the US was the country that pretty much won that part of the war.  iwo-jima, the fire bombing of cities and the two nukes were huge parts of ending the war.

Yeah, and do you know what was the one condition the Japanese were hung up on?

They wanted to keep their Emperor, even if he was just a figurehead with little to no power, like the British crown.  The Emperor is held with a VERY high regard, almost a godlike status, in Japan.  Keeping the Emperor, even just as a powerless figure, meant a lot to them, and it's because of something is trivial as that that kept the surrender from being what the US wanted.

There was no need for either bomb to be dropped.

And HH is right, the Pacific theatre was at least 95% US, while Europe was much more evenly distributed among the allies.

You're right, the bomb wasn't necessary....in a round about way....

I think its odd that people focus on the bomb so much - the firebomb campaign was even MORE devastating then the nukes were.  If the US never dropped the bombs the Japanese were likely to surrender soon as the firebomb campaign was wiping out cities and killing hundreds of thousands. 

shit those images are really powerful, and to think that those bombs werent even half as powerful as the Tsar Bomb (or any nuclear weapon that can be made today)

no my point that i was trying to make is that if they had the same technology as we did they would have done it to us.


Thank you : ok: ::)

ya know what they call us? Wide eyed mother fuckers (or something like that). Its true i got friends that are japs he's a foreign exchange student, he told me.



hey shit like that happens when your communist :)


first off i wasn't even born then, secondly, its the right of any country, in my opinion, to defend them selves at any means necessary if they are being threatened.


there is an old saying that gose "if you mess with the bull you'll get the horns". The Japs messed with the bull (America) and they got the horns (the A-bomb).

you got any other question for me you just come right on back ;)

I agree on everything except the communist part and the japanese antiamerican style
the japs were heavy fascists during the war

And if any country would start hostilities against mine, I would be ultraracist against that country in 2 seconds

wow, really!?! So ONE person in a nation of millions called us americans a wide eyed mother fucker.....wow.  EVERY Japanese person MUST be racist then!!!!

 ::)

um, dude......newsflash, WW2 was abou 60 years ago.

and how can you be ultra racist towards a country!?!??!

some of you are giving plenty of ammunition for all the anti-american posters out there.  And we wonder why people think Americans are narrow minded and retarded.

I am aware of the fact that ww2 was 60 years ago,

How? Lets say If Country B declares war/invades my Country A, I would want everything in Country B destroyed.

But you would probably mean its ok to invade a country, taking control over your government etc etc?
Bombing and spreading shit around?
I understand the people in Iraq, but I am no antiamerican.

 i'm not saying that every one is a full on KKK racist but everyone is just a little racist dosen't matter on who but deep down inside every one is just a littel. If you watch a comedian on TV and you laugh at a joke directed at a certain stereotype or race that is being racist. If you have ever made fun of some one then you were being racist towards them, who ever or what ever race they were, they could have been the same race as you are, it dosen't matter.

The point is is that we as people are to uptight about shit like this that happened 60 years ago. We all need to chill out and let the past be the past and learn from what happened then and use that knowledge for the future. Whats life if you can't laugh at some one and then them turning around and laughing at you? Not much.

now i'm sure you'll turn my words around so that i seem like a racist but remember that i am just a little. ;) and so are you ....but just a little as well.



i'm seriously not trying to piss any one off. the reason of a bored like this is so that people can voice there opinions. I'm posting mine your posting your, its all good :)






 :peace:

Nice try, but your initial post was well racist.  *SMITE*


This thread's going nowhere.