Here Today... Gone To Hell!

FORT WORTH, Texas - Cindy Sheehan, the soldier's mother who galvanized an anti-war movement with her monthlong protest outside President Bush's ranch, said Tuesday she's done being the public face of the movement.
 
"I've been wondering why I'm killing myself and wondering why the Democrats caved in to George Bush," Sheehan told The Associated Press while driving from her property in Crawford to the airport, where she planned to return to her native California.

"I'm going home for awhile to try and be normal," she said.

In what she described as a "resignation letter," Sheehan wrote in her online diary on the Daily Kos blog: "Good-bye America ... you are not the country that I love and I finally realized no matter how much I sacrifice, I can't make you be that country unless you want it.

"It's up to you now."

Sheehan began a grass roots peace movement in August 2005 when she camped outside Bush's Crawford ranch for 26 days, demanding to talk with the president about her son's death. Army Spc. Casey Sheehan was 24 when he was killed in an ambush in Baghdad in 2004.

Cindy Sheehan's protest started small but swelled to thousands and quickly drew national attention. Over the next two years, she drew huge crowds as she spoke at protest events. But she also drew criticism for some actions, such as meeting with Hugo Chavez, Venezuela's leftist president.

"I have endured a lot of smear and hatred since Casey was killed and especially since I became the so-called "Face" of the American anti-war movement," Sheehan wrote in the diary.

Kristinn Taylor, spokesman for FreeRepublic.com, which has held pro-troop rallies and counter-protests of anti-war demonstrations, said dwindling crowds at Sheehan's Crawford protests since her initial vigil may have led to her decision. But he also said he hopes she will now be able to heal.

"Her politics have hurt a lot of people, including the troops and their families, but most of us who support the war on terror understand she is hurt very deeply," Taylor said Tuesday. "Those she got involved with in the anti-war movement realize it was to their benefit to keep her in that stage of anger."

When Sheehan first took on Bush, she was a darling of the liberal left. "However, when I started to hold the Democratic Party to the same standards that I held the Republican Party, support for my cause started to erode and the 'left' started labeling me with the same slurs that the right used," she wrote in the diary.

She said she sacrificed a 29-year marriage and endured threats to put all her energy into stopping the war. What she found, she wrote, was a movement "that often puts personal egos above peace and human life."

She said the most devastating conclusion she had reached "was that Casey did indeed die for nothing ... killed by his own country which is beholden to and run by a war machine that even controls what we think."

Sheehan told the AP that she had considered leaving the peace movement since last summer while recovering from surgery.

She decided on Memorial Day to step down and spend more time with her three other children. She said she was returning to California on Tuesday because it was Casey's birthday. He would have been 28.

"We've accomplished as much here as we're going to," Sheehan said, saying she was leaving to change course. "When we come back, it definitely won't be with the peace movement with marches, with rallies and with protests. It will be more humanitarian efforts."

Last year, with $52,500 in insurance money she received after her son's death, Sheehan bought 5 acres near downtown Crawford as a permanent site for protests.

"Camp Casey has served its purpose," she wrote in the diary. "It's for sale. Anyone want to buy five beautiful acres in Crawford, Texas?"

A more humble woman never walked the Earth . She will be in my thoughts .

Thank God



I never liked Cindy Sheehan.

1. Her son RE ENLISTED! So obviously he believed in the war and the cause. She has a right as a grieving mother to do what she wants but it wasnt George Bush's fault her son died. He volunteered to go back so he knew what he was getting into and she needs to accept that and move on.

the 'left' started labeling me with the same slurs that the right used," she wrote in the diary.

interesting comment. sadly, she was played by people claiming to share her beliefs. she got a real tough lesson in politics. but she should have known better.

She had more balls than any of the cowards here ,who proudly beat their chest through this Iraq meltdown.

I always found it ironic that as much the Reich-wing pretend to love democracy (we are "spreading it" after all), they simply hated this woman for practicing freedom of speech.

Rosie has some free time coming up, maybe she could swoop down and buy that land from Sheehan and pick up where Cindy left off.

I never cared for her either.  If there's one lesson the US should have learned from the Cold War, it's that you should not, simply for the sake of spiting your enemy, share company with dictators and thugs.  We did that FAR too often, and it's bit us in the ass.

Well, Cindy did it, too, all for the sake of embracing people who are anti-Bush, despite the fact that Chavez is little more than an authoritarian strongman.  How can I admire her principles when, in her single minded pursuit of one moral stance, she's willing to sacrifice or discard all other moral high ground?

it's interesting that the media has ignored Cindy's letter to the Democratic Congress.

I hadn't heard of it until late today. and it's still not the easiest thing to find.  ::)

I know it's a joke and isn't meant to stand up to any level of thought but. . . how does that make sense? The Realm Wing? The Empire Wing?  It bothers me!

Don't let it bother you, it's merely playing with words.....

It was on the front page of yahoo news this morning.  ::)

I suppose the correct translation, since you're using it as an adjective, would be "the rich wing." There, I feel better now. 

As long as you are ok, then I'm ok.

The last thing I want is anybody to be "bothered."

and it was on CNN's front page as well.  Fucking liberal media bias!!!   ::)

well said.  I give her all the credit in the world for trying to make a difference.  A lot of people just like to talk, she actually took action.  I'm actually sad to see her stop her protest but I can totally see why she'd want to stop....

I dont hate her for what she was doing and I am definitely not right winged.

I dont like her because if she really was against the war, why did she only start protesting when her son died?

Its like it was ok as long as it was other people's kids getting killed, but let hers get killed and then all of a sudden she goes off on her sandbox over something her son obviously believed was a worthwhile cause.

He RE ENLISTED! I dont understand what is so hard to understand with that.

The guy served his time, Got out and by his own free will RE UPPED knowing full well the potential consequences. I feel she is dishonoring her son by doing what she did cause he obviously believed.

The guy was a free man who made an adult choice by his own free will so whats the beef?

Cindy Sheehan made an adult choice of her own free will for something she obviously believed was a worthwhile cause, knowing full well the potential consequences. Where's the beef? Got milk?

His problem with her isn't with her rights to protest but, obviously, her failure to do so on principle, prior to her son's death, and her use of her son's death when there may be evidence that their views of this war, or at least of his willingness to serve, were different.

Should that even be a consideration? Are timing and familial dissonance deal-breakers in war protest etiquette? And is D really railing against cause-and-effect? The answers to those questions and more coming up; first, a message from our sponsors.

Is she really acting on her own free will or is she acting upon the laws of a much higher force? Has she tapped into the age old battle bewteen good and evil? This force is present whenever there is war in the world. The battle between good and evil is the subject of many myths in many different cultures - call it an universal truth.

You could call it an universal truth but that would sound awkward unless the "an" had a silent n.  That's probably why we don't say an house or an unicycle anymore. Cindy may have tapped into a higher force, or she may have tapped into an embarassing side-effect of Lortab, either way D doesn't like it.

She's unwilling to protest the killing of others' sons and daughters, but suddenly is an activist after her son is killed?  Yeah, I think that's fair game. 

I'm sure the costs she's borne are immense, in losing her son, but there's no strong middle ground, here.  There are political and moral beliefs about what is right and wrong, and how things SHOULD be.  If she's one for activism, and thought the war was wrong, then the death of one soldier, whether it was her son or not, should have been enough.  Now, apparently she wasn't fond of the war from the beginning, so I don't think she's a hypocrite who thought the war was great, until it adversely affected her.  And I'm certainly willing to give her some leeway, since our reasons for warring seem to change regularly.  But, yes, I think the timing is important. 

That said, my own questions as to her character don't change the value of her ideals or activism.  I think they were important and, generally, right. 

Call it free will vs determinism as touched upon in the "deranged zealot" thread.

PS. If I had to sing the lyrics 'a universal truth' I would change it to "an universal truth' - it flows better off the tongue.

Liberal media bias = "too lazy to think or look past the end of my fucking nose."

again, words in my mouth. but here it is anyway....


Dear Democratic Congress,

Hello, my name is Cindy Sheehan and my son Casey Sheehan was killed on April 04, 2004 in Sadr City , Baghdad , Iraq . He was killed when the Republicans still were in control of Congress. Naively, I set off on my tireless campaign calling on Congress to rescind George?s authority to wage his war of terror while asking him ?for what noble cause? did Casey and thousands of other have to die. Now, with Democrats in control of Congress, I have lost my optimistic naivet? and have become cynically pessimistic as I see you all caving into as one Daily Kos poster called: ?Mr. 28%?

There is absolutely no sane or defensible reason for you to hand Bloody King George more money to condemn more of our brave, tired, and damaged soldiers and the people of Iraq to more death and carnage. You think giving him more money is politically expedient, but it is a moral abomination and every second the occupation of Iraq endures, you all have more blood on your hands.

Ms. Pelosi, Speaker of the House, said after George signed the new weak as a newborn baby funding authorization bill: ?Now, I think the president?s policy will begin to unravel.? Begin to unravel? How many more of our children will have to be killed and how much more of Iraq will have to be demolished before you all think enough unraveling has occurred? How many more crimes will BushCo be allowed to commit while their poll numbers are crumbling before you all gain the political ?courage? to hold them accountable. If Iraq hasn?t unraveled in Ms. Pelosi?s mind, what will it take? With almost 700,000 Iraqis dead and four million refugees (which the US refuses to admit) how could it get worse? Well, it is getting worse and it can get much worse thanks to your complicity.

Being cynically pessimistic, it seems to me that this new vote to extend the war until the end of September, (and let?s face it, on October 1st, you will give him more money after some more theatrics, which you think are fooling the anti-war faction of your party) will feed right into the presidential primary season and you believe that if you just hang on until then, the Democrats will be able to re-take the White House. Didn?t you see how ?well? that worked for John Kerry in 2004 when he played the politics of careful fence sitting and pandering? The American electorate are getting disgusted with weaklings who blow where the wind takes them while frittering away our precious lifeblood and borrowing money from our new owners, the Chinese.

I knew having a Democratic Congress would make no difference in grassroots action. That?s why we went to DC when you all were sworn in to tell you that we wanted the troops back from Iraq and BushCo held accountable while you pushed for ethics reform which is quite a hoot?don?t? you think? We all know that it is affordable for you all to play this game of political mayhem because you have no children in harm?s way?let me tell you what it is like:

You watch your reluctant soldier march off to a war that neither you nor he agrees with. Once your soldier leaves the country all you can do is worry. You lie awake at night staring at the moon wondering if today will be the day that you get that dreaded knock on your door. You can?t concentrate, you can?t eat, and your entire life becomes consumed with apprehension while you are waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Then, when your worst fears are realized, you begin a life of constant pain, regret, and longing. Everyday is hard, but then you come up on ?special? days?like upcoming Memorial Day. Memorial Day holds double pain for me because, not only are we supposed to honor our fallen troops, but Casey was born on Memorial Day in 1979. It used to be a day of celebration for us and now it is a day of despair. Our needlessly killed soldiers of this war and the past conflict in Vietnam have all left an unnecessary trail of sorrow and deep holes of absence that will never be filled.

So, Democratic Congress, with the current daily death toll of 3.72 troops per day, you have condemned 473 more to these early graves. 473 more lives wasted for your political greed: Thousands of broken hearts because of your cowardice and avarice. How can you even go to sleep at night or look at yourselves in a mirror? How do you put behind you the screaming mothers on both sides of the conflict? How does the agony you have created escape you? It will never escape me?I can?t run far enough or hide well enough to get away from it.

By the end of September, we will be about 80 troops short of another bloody milestone: 4000, and MoveOn.org will hold nationwide candlelight vigils and you all will be busy passing legislation that will snuff the lights out of thousands more human beings.

Congratulations Congress, you have bought yourself a few more months of an illegal and immoral bloodbath. And you know you mean to continue it indefinitely so ?other presidents? can solve the horrid problem BushCo forced our world into.

It used to be George Bush?s war. You could have ended it honorably. Now it is yours and you all will descend into calumnious history with BushCo.

The Camp Casey Peace Institute is calling all citizens who are as disgusted as we are with you all to join us in Philadelphia on July 4th to try and figure a way out of this ?two? party system that is bought and paid for by the war machine which has a stranglehold on every aspect of our lives. As for myself, I am leaving the Democratic Party. You have completely failed those who put you in power to change the direction our country is heading. We did not elect you to help sink our ship of state but to guide it to safe harbor.

We do not condone our government?s violent meddling in sovereign countries and we condemn the continued murderous occupation of Iraq .

We gave you a chance, you betrayed us.

Sincerely,
Cindy Sheehan
Founder and President of
Gold Star Families for Peace.

Founder and Director of
The Camp Casey Peace Institute

Eternally grieving mother of Casey Sheehan

 ::)

Oh shut the fuck up. Yeah, Cindy Sheehan hurt a lot of people....

That was her biggest failure not being able to accept that point, it was her sons decision.

Well said D!

I'm happy to see this media attention whore going! At first, I felt bad for her at first when she lost her son, but as the truth about this bitch came out more and more she lost all her credibility. She's nothing more than a whiner and a bitter griever!

Yay internet dude! Bag on that somebody who did something that you didn't agree with! Make unqualified judgments and cast random aspersions! Preach authoritatively from the lofty perch of anonymity! She might never read it, but that bitch is pwned! The internet rules. Yay.   

Anyone who makes a stand.
Anyone who stands up for what they believe in and acts on it should be commended.

including Jerry Falwell?

No, there's exceptions to every rule.

Man, talk about a rambling piece of rubbish.  That letter doesn't do it for me.  She really seems to want to alternate between disrespectful referrals to the President ("George" and "BushCo") while treating the Congress in a more respectful tone (Ms. Pelosi), which makes no sense, as this is a letter to Congress, letting them know what a bunch of fuckups they truly are (I agree with her, there!  :hihi:)

That, and her rambling attempts to criticize the war while connecting it with Vietnam and "our new masters, the Chinese"...WTF?  ??? 

I call on Congress to end CindyCo's war on the English language, by ending the war in Iraq! 

Your one to be speaking aren't you? Those who live in glass houses should't throw stones.

I could care less if she reads anything I have to say about her or not. It's my opinion of such a pittiful woman who dragged her son's name thru the mud. She's a disgrace and does nothing more than bitch and moan and bitch and moan and bitch and moan....

But if I ever do run into her you can bet I will tell her what I think she is.

She probably has some sort of publicly available email address. You don't have to wait until you bump into her, get on it.

I doubt that.......

She's not worth an email. And like I said, I don't care if she reads about anything I have to say about her. But if I run in to her, she'll hear from me.


Like you have any idea anyways.

interesting point she makes about the Dems essentially killing almost 500 more soldiers because of their "cowardice".


i'm sure at least a few of you will be traveling to Philly for the 4th. PM me and i'll hook you up with travel tips. maybe we could even meet up for a beer - it's a great city.

The Camp Casey Peace Institute is calling all citizens who are as disgusted as we are with you all to join us in Philadelphia on July 4th to try and figure a way out of this ?two? party system that is bought and paid for by the war machine which has a stranglehold on every aspect of our lives.

Anybody who supported this regime and continues to do so doesn't really come off as having any backbone. Beating up on a grieving war Mom is probably right up your alley though, maybe I'm wrong.



Wow, me too? I'll be there for an Al Franken book signing, I'm sure I'll be real thirsty!

No, it's not up my alley. This is the only "grieving" parent I have struck out against among the thousands of parents that have lost their children. She whored herself into the media's hands and ran with it. Her son made a choice. TWICE! Meanwhile, she puts all the blame on Bush.

Bush duped her son right into an early grave. Along with thousands who died because of his fairy tales. She has a right to be angry about it all.

How do you know her son was duped? You know, he could have believed, among other thousands of other serviceman, with all his heart that he was doing the right thing and backed President Bush 100%, therefore deciding to go back a second time to fight for his country. The woman can be mad but the anger reflects back towards her son also.

What kind of question is that?

He was duped, because like most of America now believes, Bush was not honest leading up to the war. More frankly, he lied through his Goddamn teeth.

Come on.  We all know that God wanted Bush to be President.  Why would he damn his teeth?

You don't know what he though. Even you said it yourself, "like most Americans believe." Her son could have believed 100% that the war America was fighting was right.

Don't you think his mother would probably know better than any of us??

Than why would it make any sense for her son to tell his mother he hates the war and Bush and than say I'm going back? For what would his reason be?

Maybe he was a decent human being who believed in deposing a genocidal dictator and "liberating" the Iraqi people? Even if it meant re-upping with an under-manned occupation force figureheaded by incompetent goons? Nah, can't be that.

Yes, but that wouldn't make him duped.

There are alot of people fighting overseas right now that believe they are still doing the right thing.

Yes, and at the same time "not being duped" doesn't mean he couldn't dislike Bush and the motivations for/execution of the war. So no-one is proving anything - maybe it's time to get over it.

The point of the war was because Iraq had all these WMDs.

-Mushroom Cloud over NYC if we didn't invade--remember that?
-Greeted as liberators--remember that?
--WMD's--Remember that?

It all turned out to be total bullshit. There was no way Iraq was any kind of threat to the US. The war was waged on false pretenses.

And remember Bush was saying as late as early March of '03 that he wanted to wage war as a last resort, yet people who have talked have said that the Bush team had in their minds to go after Iraq as soon as Bush came to power.

So ya, Casey Sheehan was duped.

As for " deposing a genocidal dictator," you do know that the US put him into power and gave him all kinds of weapons for years and years, and the US knew damn well then what a "genocidal dictator" he was then too. 

Who the F knows! Thats the point!!!!  I'm sure SHE knows a lot better than some guy on a GNR message board!  Tell you what buddy, why don't you go ask her yourself since you seem so eager to give her a piece of your mind....   Then again, I'm sure the speculation of COMPLETE strangers would be more accurate than the guys own mother. 

Of course. But as we all know, if the US didn't financially and militarily support fascist war criminal dictators across the globe we'd all be enveloped by the commie menace. And if we hadn't worked with the Russians during WW2 we'd all be speaking German. And if the US hadn't waited for three years before being bombed into the second world war, uh, we'd . . . no, I'm all out.

Does this mean that everyone who is still signing up for our Armed Forces are duped and don't know Bush has lied to them about the war?

Loaded question if there ever was one.

I'd answer it honestly, but you can't handle the truth, never could.

No, it's not a loaded question. And since your so quick to jump to assuptions, it becomes clear that you just want to start shit and say I can't handle what you believe are "truths."

Are there still people out there who believe Iraq and Sadamm had something to do with 9-11?

Maybe? People's beliefs are going to range from from end of the scale to the other. But what I'm saying, is that there are people who believe with all their heart that this war is right and are willing to sign up again and again to go and fight what they believe is a rightful war/cause.

I'm sure there are people out there like that - but Casey Sheehan re-enlisting doesn't mean that he believed with all of his heart the war is right.  It could mean a number of things.  You and I can guess all we want but I would think its safe to assume his mother knew a little more than Butters and Drew from HTGTH.com.  Agreed?

What gives the US the right to arbitrarily decide what fascists to support and which dictators to overthrow? Fighting the commie menace? What kind of bullshit is that. And any kind of analogy that compares arming Saddam in the 80s with working with the Russians during WW2 is totally assnine and has brought the board to new levels of absurdity.

EDIT:

Oh ya...you wuz kiddin'

I can agree with you some but not completely. I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right. Just as you can go on how you feel, so can I. And by saying that, I believe how telling it was of her son to sign up the second time.

maybe it's possible that people don't care if we were lied to, or if mistakes were made. that's all in the past and losers on message boards can debate and claim they know the "facts". (when in reality we probably don't know 95% of the facts, and never will. and because washington is so corrupt, we can't depend on opposing parties to expose anyone cause they all have blood on their hands.)

and maybe people (i.e. people currently enlisting and re-enlisting) look at the situation over there and believe the U.S. must finish what it started and cannot abandon a defenseless group of people to be slaughtered.

you're entitled to your opinion on why Casey re-enlisted, but to trash his mother just because you're speculating Casey was for the war is pretty low.  Like I said, I think his mother would have more of a clue than you or I or anyone else.
To think all of this woman gave up, her marriage, her finances, her reputation (it was smeared left and right) along with all the grief she must have - I think people should just leave her alone.

butters - i agree with your last two posts here. but i think it's irresponsible that said some nasty things about people who have a different opinion than hers.

not to mention meeting with a chavez.

and it seems odd that the people saying the "attention whore" should be left alone are the same ones that trashed Jerry Falwell immediately after his death.

uhhh, judging by the polls, I'd say people care about being lied to.  Based on the mid-terms, I'd say they care about the mistakes that were made.

as for the defenseless people - yes there are many innocents in iraq being killed - do you think they care about the lies and mistakes of the Bush admin??

Doing what one believes is honorable, does not always mean it is something they agree with.

Leave her alone? She's the one who wanted and took advantage of all this attention. I doubt anyone was twisting her arm to say the things she's said.

If she's going to be a public image and protestor than she better well face the fact that she will be attacked for her lies and smear jobs.

What lies?

What smear jobs?

This will be like your "loaded question and truths" comment. What I believe are her lies and smear jobs, you will disagree with. I can't change your opinion on what you believe nor can you change mine.

Less "believe", more evidence.

Evidence is not proof, and evidence is subject to interpretation.

It's better than hearsay and bullshit. So it's still a lofty raising of the current standard.

so you're calling someone a liar and accusing them of a smear job with only your opinion to back it up.   :rofl:

yeah she was just SO excited when her son was killed.  turd sandwich or giant douche anyone?

At least he didn't reference himself like Flagg did.

I'm sure the Ann Coulter reference is coming up soon....shes a legitimate source. 

Good riddance....

We've gone thru this how many times now? I give my examples and references to back up my claims and their simply blown off because of close minded people here.

So Butters, why waste my time going to that extent?

What has Cindy Sheehan lied about?

Did Iraq have WMD???

Helloooooooooooooo.

That was the point of the war, remember?

I should have said "makes a stand for the common good". I didn't think I would have to spell it out for you.

Where is Mike Moore when you need him?!

Apparently you missed the thread from a few weeks ago where the CIA (non-existent at the time) was responsible for the bombing of Pearl Harbor so that we could test a few nukes on Japan 3 years later... just another in a long line of US War Machine Lies......Back on Topic...

This country has a volunteer military, no one makes you sign up, but starting at the bottom of the food chain you are lied to. Recruiters are just slightly lower than Used Car Salesmen (No Offense to Car Salesmen). They make insane MOS claims and treat military service as nothing more than a 4 year work study leading to the greatest scholarship in the world. Then you leave basic/boot camp and find out the quickest way from North Carolina to Florida is via Afganistan or Iraq. Unfortunatly the people who get put in harms way are the ones joining (for the most part) because they have no realistic shot at college and think this is there only way out.

So in a small way they are all duped, but there is no point that you should join the military with the idea that you are going to coast thru without firing your weapon at a foreign combatant. They train you to kill for a reason, and it's not so you are prepared for a career as an aviation mechanic.

Sheehan quit....orrrrrr she stopped receiving money from moveon.org....

so because of one poster you're not going to back up what you say?  how convienent.

My guess would be that he's either shitting out previously eaten food, or consuming food to be shat out later.  Seriously, I think the biggest problem with the left in this country might be their self-chosen spokespersons.  Moore's an arrogant, and very, very obnoxious human being.  Sean Penn, Rosie O'Donnell...the list goes on.  The greatest product in the world won't be sold if the salesman's an overblown windbag.  Shame.  :no:

I disagree. At least Mike Moore works with facts!

I sort of agree with that. While I think there's room for dissent among the planners and strategists I'm not really interested in the opinion of the troops on the ground. To look at it from a purely reductive standpoint; Even in an utopian scenario in which every member of the military is fully and truthfully informed and fighting a just and valid war their job would be the same as it is today, they're hired killers.

I call them canon fodder.

IED fodder, in the contemporary parlance. Bring back the cannons, I say.

Bring back the swords, I say.

Well, the Polish calvalry did have a go at charging the tanks in WW2.
Bring back the cavalry!

And then he takes those facts and distorts them.

Intellegently!

Sarin Nerve Gas was found.

One poster? Are you crazy? It's plural!

I have continued to back up my opinions and claims over and over with articles and links. But even when I prove my point, members continue to ignore proof and attack something else like the link where the article is. So Butters, it has alot more to with than just being "convenient."

You mean the gas the US sold them?

What are you saying? Does it not make it WMD's if the U.S. sold it to them?

Yes, I'm talking about the Sarin Nerve Gas Saddam Hussein used to kill thousands, if not millions of people.

Shut up already, for Christ sake. There was no fucking WMD found. You people are pathetic. Even the president of the United States makes no claims of finding WMD. On the contrary he joked about not finding them (which was even more sickening, since our kids got sent over there for WMD and there was none.)

The gas they found was the gas we provided them-since degraded- and in the words of the weapons inspectors about as dangerous as the can of Raid bug spray you find under the kitchen sink. Hardly WMD.

You also forget that when Saddam gassed the Kurds, with the gas WE PROVIDED HIM, that we sat idle and did absolutely nothing. We didn't do a fucking thing. And now, nearly 20 yrs later the uneducated dolts use that as some sort of battle cry to rush into Iraq. Give me a fucking break, there was no WMD, only lies. Your war on terror has failed, you fucking blew it. You people lie so much it's insane, seek help.

I have lots of family in Texas....maybe I should make a bid on this?


Land that defined the peace movement is up for grabs


CRAWFORD ? Opponents and backers of George W. Bush have been sparring here, in the president's backyard, over issues of war and peace since Bush first took office.

Now, a new conflict is brewing: ownership of the 5-acre patch of turf ? the "heart and soul" of the U.S. peace movement, as one protester put it ? that activist mom Cindy Sheehan is planning to sell next week on eBay for upward of $80,000.

Robert Dixon, the executive director of Move America Forward, a California-based grass-roots organization that backs the U.S. mission in Iraq, said his group is prepared to do "whatever we have to" to purchase Camp Casey, which lies just a few miles from the president's ranch.

His mission: to replace the memorial of white crosses to fallen U.S. service members erected by the anti-war activists with a memorial to fallen U.S. service members to be erected by defenders of the war in Iraq.

Sheehan, perhaps the anti-war movement's most visible face who this week said she's resigning from her public role, "won't sell it to them for $5 million, not on a cold day in hell," said Sheehan's sister, Dede Miller, 48.
Not knowingly, anyway. Miller acknowledged her sister, whose son, Casey, a U.S. Army specialist, was killed in Iraq in 2004, could be fooled if middlemen get involved in the bidding.

So far, Sheehan, 49, hasn't received any serious offers from anti-war groups, but there's still time ? and hope, Miller said.

Anti-war activist Carl Rising-Moore said land sale notwithstanding, Camp Casey would remain the symbolic center of the anti-war movement. "Camp Casey is a state of mind," he said from the campground along FM 317. Protesters, he said, would remain in Crawford; they'll just move up the road, to the ditches where Sheehan and others first set up camp in 2005. A new ordinance may ban tents along roads, but it says nothing about "throwing down a bed roll," noted Rising-Moore, 61, a Vietnam-era veteran.

cindy sheehan... more like cindy SHEMAN if you know what im sayin

Wow, you should be a comedy writer.

This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on the internet.  You don't even hear this kind of nonsense from the ann coulters of the world - they're not even this ridiculous.  it'd be absolutely hysterical if you weren't remotely serious, but something tells me you actually believe your own bullshit.

]

nice points...except for the whole "our kids got SENT over there"..no one was SENT anywhere..its a volunteer service......game over.

come on now, yes its a volunteer army and yes the soldiers can't dictate which wars we fight and which ones we don't but i think its safe to assume when these kids did volunteer they weren't signing up to fight the presidents personal agenda - they were volunteering to serve and protect this country, not to fight a war based on lies and oil.  it's like getting a job in the corporate world and then two weeks later having a giant re-org where your job descrip radically changes.  the difference there is you can quit though and get a new job....

Shut up? Now that's the SLCPunk we all know. Very classy, eh.

I guess you didn't see my previous post about it not being a WMD if the U.S. provided it.

The war on terror hasn't failed. I will give you we could be doing alot more in places like Iraq. By that I mean let our soilders actually fight the war.


Your showing just as much class as your buddy SLC. I guess you believe your own bullshit to be tur also Butter.

Yeh, after being brainwashed about how the war is a good thing and enticed by the army pay packet - then you may volunteeer......

Volunteer to defend this nation, not get sent off on some trumped up charges to occupy a basket case country because King George said we should.

Yes, shut the fuck up already. There were no WMD found.

According to the National Intelligence Estimate, Iraq has made us less safe and created a cattle call for jihad nut jobs. You're liar President had a chance to wage a real war on terror, but chose to line up tasty corporate contracts for all his pals instead, using our troops like shake n bake bags. Mission accomplished my ass.

sorry bud, has nothing to do with class.  your post was just what i called it - absolutely ridiculous.  It's honestly not even worth discussing.  After you give Cindy Sheehan a piece of your mind i dare you to go up to any other parent of a dead marine and tell them "thanks your son died so we could find Sadamms Sarin gas"   ::)   

"Kills on contact and leaves a fresh lemon scent."

Well, if I think their running their mouths wreckless as Cindy, I will. And it wasn't just about Sarin Gas. Saddaam was a horrible murderous dictactor and deserved to be removed. What we have there is a disaster right now because the ways things have been handled. Bush want let our military fight the war the way it should be fought.

I never wanted our U.S. troops to be in a war. I would have rather sent in a killsquad and taken Saddaam out instead of going the right Bush chose.

what did bush lie about?

facts only please.

There would be several layers to unravel and analyse in order to get to the Awful Truth.....

What's your definition of murderous? Amount of kills?

If so, we in the western world would suddenly suffer a serious lack of leaders.

Killing goes with the territory, always has.


You mean slaughtering civilians by the thousands as an example? Cause that's all that works.


Yeah, and then Gandhi would become the new President in Iraq...everything would be fine...

Yes, I'm talking about the Kurds, his own people, and others he raped, tortured, and killed for years and years and years.

I don't see any leaders in the West doing any of these to their own citizens. Especially in the U.S.

That's right. The US rapes, tortures and kills non-citizens only. It's an important distinction, I'm sure.

oh my god, this is just too much.  so first its about WMD, or as Drew would have us believe, sarin gas.  but since we all know what a HUGE joke that is...NOW its about Sadamm being a murderous dictator.  Well shit!! if thats all you need to start spending billions, uselessly waste American lives then why not go into Africa, North Korea and all the other places where there are murderous dictators?? 

this bullshit rhetoric from the right was a joke a year ago but i don't even hear them spouting this kind of nonsense anymore. 

Your judging an entire nation on a few bad apples in the military? How ridiculous.


Did you not ready where I said it would have been better off to just send in a killsquad and take Saddaam out?

That was hilarious. Thank you.

It's sad you think it's funny.

so anyone who doesn't prescribe to what the US says they should be doing we should execute their leadership?  Yeah, the people of the world will LOVE us even more than they do now for that!!!  I think I'd rather have Bush in office than someone like you  :hihi:

Did I say that? NO! Stop putting words in my mouth.

Because in the US, our leaders have the glorified chain of command to protect them from the perils of their dirty work.  Just like the great Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfield both used to cover up their tracks of torture and government misups.  As far as raping, what's the need when the hooker scene in Washington DC is always quite dependable?

Better than "killsquads," perhaps Bush should have focussed on creating a democratic America-friendly nation in the middle east by politically opposing the regime in Iran while supporting its democracy hungry and (relatively) america-friendly (maybe "neutral" is a better word) people? Y'know, instead of letting the bigger threat fester and perhaps empower itself beyond the point of political opposition. Of course, it would have meant strong political and diplomatic maneuvering over a long period of time and less military aquisitions in the short term and it might have stood a chance of actually working, so perhaps not an enticing option for this administration.

Paying for a hooker and raping someone is no where near on the same level. And if they torture terrorist suspects to protect this nation from attack than I'm all for it.

Quick question; In the last six years, how many terrorist attacks on American soil were prevented through torture? 

You are a pathetic little creature aren't you? You've been told this for years now.

He lied about WMD.

The CIA told him that the source for "WMD" ("Curveball") was for crap and not to include it in his speech. The week the CIA told him that (in Kansas I believe) he took it out. The following week, however, against CIA advice, he put it back in his speech-addressing the nation. That, was a goddamn lie. It has been reported by just about every mainstream news media outlet I can imagine. Top level CIA officials have given interviews for CNN and 60 minutes. (I have also posted those video interview links here in the Jungle two or three times.)

You have been told that here, personally by me, about half a dozen times now.

The second lie, which is even worse than the first, is the lie about the weapons inspectors. It was Bush that threw the inspectors  out, not the other way around. Bush lied and claimed Saddam was not going along with inspections, which was absolutely false.

Not sure and I hope we don't find out. The ACLU and Human Rights Watch would have a field day crying and whining.

I don't mind the U.S. government keeping it secret and classified to help protect this country.

Your lack of logic knows no bounds.

So let me get this straight:

Saddam gassed the Kurds about twenty years ago: Check

We sit by and do nothing about it: Check

OBL attacks us on 9-11 killing 3000 people: Check

In response to the attack by OBL, we attack Saddam because he gassed the Kurds two decades prior, after he allows us in his country to inspect for weapons. Even though he is co-operating, Bush kicks the inspectors out and attacks anyway.

Every top level CIA, FBI or law enforcement official I've seen come forward, has claimed torture does not work. It gets people to admit to anything, simply to make the torture stop. If I pulled your finger nails out you'd admit you love Cindy Sheehan in a NY minute to make the pain go away.

Torture is also unAmerican.



They have a great page program I hear......

We didn't focus and go after Osama the way we should have gone after him. That's still a problem.

Tell me why not. Why did Dubyah push for war in Iraq instead of go after our enemy?

I honestly can't explain why the focus wasn't more intense. I do wish we would have gone after Osama harder.

you said iraq had WMDs in the form of sarin gas and that sadamm was a murderous dictator and you wished we had a killsquad to go in and take him out b/c of those two reasons.  isn't that exactly what you said?  so if that is the case, by your logic, shouldn't we go after every dictator who is murderous and who MIGHT have wmds?

and why is that?  b/c we were chasing non-existant WMDs and murderous dictators in Iraq....

That option could be much more of danger with other countries such as North Korea. So I'd hold off as long as possible before coming to that conclusion. But I wouldn't hesitate if this country was in a direct threat to take action.

Actually to add to that...We didn't just stand by......we funded and encouraged and trained Saddam and his boyo's to do it!? Then when it got out of hand and made us look bad, Saddam was the enemy!? Just like Noriega....when his dealings got too big, boom...he's the bad guy and no longer our buddy boy.? Maybe the reason Osama is still on the loose is because he is still on the buddy boy program with us?? He hasn't really fucked Bush over yet because with 9/11 he basically gave Bush a reason to destroy Iraq and have free reign over "national security".?

the insults are old and pathetic, and really make you look bad. can't you give it a break already? seriously, bro. show some common curteousy. people are gonna disagree with you in life. you're too old not to appreciate that. 

you believe what you want to believe. you twist information to fit your agenda.

please provide links. it should be easy if all the major outlets reported it. i want to see proof that bush lied.

and before you call me lazy, i've tried to find proof that bush actually lied. i'm not necessarily arguing that he didn't lie, but i can't find proof of it. and therefore bush backers can legitmately say he didn't lie.

So they should only invade countries to remove murderous dictators when it isn't dangerous?

yeah, like Iraq.  Totally not dangerous.  Mission accomplished right!??!?!  We "won".  We're TONS safer now too.

Absolutely ridiculous.

I already have posted links for you to read, on that very subject, including video links with the actual interview, here numerous times. You are either being dishonest, lazy, a sociopath, or totally stupid.

The second lie I speak of is well documented. Bush claims the inspectors were kicked out (documented-do your homework) while the truth is Bush kicked out the inspectors (also well documented.) This has also been posted her several times.

You are just like Charity Case. No matter how often I source info, you come back and pretend nobody said it.

Hillary mentioned the inspectors a few times tonight during the debate....i guess shes just making it up too right?   ::)

more insults from the punk. shocking. you're like a spoiled 5-year-old who acts out when things don't go his way. but hey, not much has gone your way lately. even the Dems let you down when they finally take congress. so much for bush losing all his political capital.

a link from someone ripping bush is hardly proof. maybe they are disgruntled? how can we measure their credibility? there are people from the inside that say bush did not lie. so that's just he said she said bullshit. even hillary mentioned tonight that she had all the CIA intel. edwards was on the intel committee. why did they vote for the war? i don't think it's fair to say they were lying about their intel.

There you go lying again.

Lazy lie number one: Top level CIA officials have come forward to tell us that the intel they had was not to be trusted,. Not "Someone ripping Bush." They instructed Bush not to use this intel, stating specifically that it was not credible (I've sourced this several times, but not surprisingly somebody who isn't able to find a front page news article on Cindy Sheehan probably has a hard time remembering this.) Bush used that intel anyway to sell the country on the war.

Lazy lie number two: (Just like I have always said) Hillary voted to give Bush the authority to go to war after all avenues were exhausted. Going on the intel she had at the time is accurate, but you are using it to be dishonest. Most importantly it does not mean she voted "for the war based on the intel". Bush took the authority granted, then kicked the inspectors out (see Bush lie number two earlier in this thread) and waged war on Iraq.

LL1: bush chose to use that intel. he believed in it (as did all the dems - they even mentioned it during the debates). not proof of a lie.

LL2: that's bullshit and you know it. edwards recent comments prove that they knew what they were voting for. why vote for the authority if you weren't prepared to go to war ASAP? they could always vote to give authority again later when they felt war was necessary. the answer is obvious...they felt war may be necessary very soon. or like i said, no need to give him the authority. "i didn't know bush would abuse it and go too soon" is a total crock of shit.

These have been answered for you several times now.

You are willfully ignorant, nobody can be this stupid.

We all know the threat of terrorism is real, what we differ in is our approach to handling it. For instance, some people think the best idea is to attack the actual terrorists who perpetrated 9-11 where ever they are, and kill them. Others think terrorism is better fought by murdering women and children in Iraq. Such a conundrum. Such a difficult choice.

It is sad that the rightwing has lost the struggle with logic and reason, and it's stooges are now reduced to posting bullshit threads with strawman arguments meant for the consumption of those whose thinking does not go much beyond nodding yes to Rush Limbaugh. Fucking whores.

typical brilliant replies from the brain trust.

when actually challenged to prove anything, the temper tantrums begin.

all i'm asking for is some reasonable proof that bush lied.

I gave it to you several times, and you ignored it.

Pathetic.

His lips moved.

So the CIA had an ax to grind, is that it? It was just a disgruntled agent?

So was the book 'Fiasco'?

And Woodward's book?

And the book 'Cobra II'?

And the book 'Hubris'?

And the retired generals?

And the former CPA employees?

And the Halliburton guy with the camera?

And the Marine who leaked the report on Anbar?

Everybody is lying accept Bush? Get real!

the CIA??? the head of the CIA said it was a "slam dunk".

you mean to tell me you're referencing a book you didn't even read???

wow. maybe you should stick to watching "wall street" on AMC.

Do you even know what you are blabbing about?

Lets get this straight...I provide you with an interview from a top CIA official who says he told Bush the intel was not to be trusted and not to use it. Bush used the "intel" anyway, after essentially being told it was bogus. 1) I've told you this about 7 times now, posting the video link to the interview maybe 3 times over a 12-18 month time frame. (You also deftly avoid Bush lie number two where he claimed Saddam kicked him out, thus pushing us towards an unnecessary war.)

Your reply is that it's a "he said, she said" type of thing and that somebody who has a beef with Bush does not count as credible evidence against the man. That it is "hardly proof" the man lied.

Gekko comes forward to point out that by using your logic, endless people must also have an ax to grind. Eventually an intelligent person would realize that Bush has been dishonest. Your reply (classic) is that the CIA said it was a slam dunk. Just man up and admit you are a blind follower of your boy Bush, that he can do no wrong, and that there is a vast left wing (and now right wing) conspiracy against your leader to make him look bad.  Are Rush sound bites and cheap slogans all you have left here? That's all you have to defend your guy?

A. you're assuming i read all of your posts. (just a heads up, i do not).

B. the head of the CIA said it was a slam dunk. there are others who said bush did not lie (including democrats).

what's next, we count how many people say he did or he didn't lie? sounds like that's what you're implying. again, immature he said she said bullshit. not surprising.

also, one thing you're failing to understand is that the intel was not clear cut factual or non-factual. it needed to be interpreted. and yes, there were disagreements. not proof anyone lied.

I'm beginning to think that English is not your first language.

This is one of the oddest exchanges I've ever read. Perhaps it would help if Punk start posting in braille for you-know-who.

I was going to post some links to interviews and articles by Lawrence Wilkerson , Richard Clarke , and Scott Miller , however I have a sneaking suspicion it would be an exercise in futility . It appears that some people prefer to bury their heads in the sand .

wow - three straight posts containing nothing of value to the discussion.

just more insults.

brilliant, guys.  :rofl:

i've read Cobra II. you guys should check it out. it's a great read, and is based on far more factual evidence that any of us could ever get our hands on. 

The fact that you assumed that my previous post was refering to you , indicates that you are familiar with the work in question ; so tell me sir , how do you so readily dismiss it .

not sure how my post indicates that.

but yes, i'm familiar with some of the interviews you mention.

please, feel free to post Wilkerson's speech. i think it lends more credence to my belief that bush did not lie. 

The implication is obvious .

Here is a small snippet of analysis :

Wilkerson also agreed with the interviewer that Vice President Cheney's frequent trips to the CIA would inevitably have brought "undue influence" on the agency. When asked if Cheney was "the kind of guy who could lean on somebody" he responded, "Absolutely. And be just as quiet and taciturn about it as-- he-- as he leaned on 'em. As he leaned on the Congress recently-- in the-- torture issue."

Wilkerson stood strongly by his earlier description of Cheney and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld as having formed a cabal to hijack the decision-making process, emphasizing both their determination to ignore the Geneva Conventions and the "inept and incompetent" planning for post-invasion Iraq. And he concluded, "I'm worried and I would rather have the discussion and debate in the process we've designed than I would a dictate from a dumb strongman. . . . I'd prefer to see the squabble of democracy to the efficiency of dictators."

you made an insult. i'm the only one posting that happens to have a different OPINION. that does not...

"indicates that you are familiar with the work in question," as you put it. but that's not important.


you didn't post the entire speech, just analysis. which by the way does nothing to prove bush lied about WMDs.

I apologize , that was uncalled for . I will try to exhibit more humility in the future .

I caught that too ; it was rather sloven of me not to fix it .