Guns ?N Roses: Dynamics and quality win the Loudness Wars

[wells]

On Sunday, November 23rd the new Guns ?N Roses record Chinese Democracy was finally released after many years of waiting and many millions spent making it.  14 different recording studios are credited.  I was thrilled to have been chosen to master the album.

In October, when I first heard some of final mixes which were incredibly multi-layered and dense, I was surprised by two things:  The mixes were so finally honed that doing the smallest move sounded like I had done a lot and also that adding the typical amount of compression used in mastering these days took the life and musicality out of the recordings in a big way.

The trial disc I submitted to the producers had 3 versions: The one I personally liked had no compression that was used just for loudness, only compression that was needed for great sounding rock and roll.  Then, knowing how competitive everything is these days, I made two more masterings, one with more compression and another with yet more compression, but even the loudest one wasn?t remotely as loud as some recent CDs.  Hoping that at least one of these would satisfy Axl and Caram Costanzo, the co-producers of the record, I was floored when I heard they decided to go with my full dynamics version and the loudness-for-loudness-sake versions be damned.

I think the fan and press backlash against the recent heavily compressed recordings finally set the context for someone to take a stand and return to putting music and dynamics above shear level.

The dynamics vs. volume trade-offs include the act of simply turning your playback volume clockwise a little.  True, when shopping the iTunes store your song may not blast out as loudly as other songs. When trying to impress the radio station PD it may be an issue if you don?t have the guaranteed attention this record deserves, however level on the radio broadcast is NOT an issue.  As I have been lecturing to people for years, the radio stations are all in competition with each other and they all have devices to make loud things soft and soft things loud and indeed, I heard a critic?s review of Chinese Democracy on NPR and the song examples they played screamed over my portable radio.  Even with the radio station compression you can still hear detail in the car? amazing!

I?m hoping that Chinese Democracy will mark the beginning of people returning to sane levels and musicality triumphing over distortion and grunge.  I have already seen a new awareness and appreciation for quality from some other producers, I pray it is the end of the level wars.

http://www.gatewaymastering.com/gateway_LoudnessWars.asp

[TVC15]

http://www.gatewaymastering.com/gateway_LoudnessWars.asp

 

[bazgnr]

You know, I'm always caught off guard when I'm playing CD because of how often I find myself reaching to turn it up.  Then I realize just how welcome a change that is, and how much more I'm enjoying the album because of it.  So very well done.

[wells]

some more details from another site:

And what about "Chinese Democracy" ? One of the most expensive and anticipated rock albums in recent years ? Against all expectations, it has been produced and mastered with dynamics, punch and power. The average A-weighted RMS loudness is around -16 dBFS, and as a result it "jumps out of the speakers" at you in a way "Death Magnetic" never will. Check out a preview of the first track on Last.fm - listen to the way the guitars pile in at 1'26" and then again at 2'10" and then again at 3'36" - you just can't achieve that kind of buzz and build with an RMS of -4 dB.

http://mastering-media.blogspot.com/2008/11/loudness-wars-are-over-if-you-want-it.html

[Howard2k]

Great articles, thanks!

[MrMojoRa]

Fantastic article.

That explains much to me.  When the first single came out, I made a cd with many other itunes downloads I recently bought.  There was a difference in the natural loudness between Chinese Democracy and other songs on the cd I made.  I thought that GN'R skimped on the quality for the single. 

I was wrong!

[Frequent Flyer]

Great article. Indeed, the layered songs really shine through the incredibly polished production. It would have been a crime not to let the album out as anything less than the full monty. And because of that, the album is infinitely replayable and a true modern classic.

[cineater]

I'm lost, I need the concept explained better.  Is this like where I'm going I can't hear the singer's voice as the sound from the instruments is competing for who is louder?  Where I'm getting a wall of sound and not individual instruments?

[Dr. Blutarsky]

There is so much going on musically and it is nice to hear all the instruments. This is what keeps it it fresh beyond the 100th listen. Great move. This is music to listen to, not just blast as loud as possible. But the way it is mixed you can do both.

[wells]

I'm lost, I need the concept explained better.  Is this like where I'm going I can't hear the singer's voice as the sound from the instruments is competing for who is louder?  Where I'm getting a wall of sound and not individual instruments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

http://www.turnmeup.org/

There is so much going on musically and it is nice to hear all the instruments. This is what keeps it it fresh beyond the 100th listen. Great move. This is music to listen to, not just blast as loud as possible. But the way it is mixed you can do both.

and mastered

[Scabbie]

Very interesting...that explains why I was a little miffed when I first put the album on my dock and couldn't get it loud enough. Probably cos I've been playing Death Magnetic and comparitively this sounded quiet. But I really appreciate being able to hear all of the sounds - e.g. the cool guitaring going on under Shacklers

Have to say - the drums sound FAT too, the way I like it

[Chuzeville]

What's really important is that the quiet parts in the songs are actually quieter than the loud parts which are actually louder, as they should be. In the Loudness War you tend to lose this kind of contrasts.

[Chief]

Great article, it's very nice that this is mastered well, really good.  cheers to them!!!

[wells]

well I hope one day we will get the story about recording from Axl and Caram as producer's view  ... that would be hell of a story. and of course they were using all available tools to record perfect record, but they kept the heart and the beat... it well produced, but not over produced. it is almost perfect, but not over perfect

[Limulus]

What's really important is that the quiet parts in the songs are actually quieter than the loud parts which are actually louder, as they should be. In the Loudness War you tend to lose this kind of contrasts.

yes, to back up this a little more:
one of the first short "loudness war" youtube-clips is here (short, not even 2 minutes but it describes the general problem perfectly and very easy):

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ&feature=related

[Skunk]

This is one of many things I admire GnR doing in regards to this album, the loudness war is fucking stupid and ruins everything. I'm glad that they didn't conform to this corporate, quality degrading shit... good work!

This issue is a great example of what seems to have been the guiding philosophy as this album was made. Don't just do things to sell albums, do things to make good music, and then let THAT sell albums. GNR showed faith in people, in rock, and in themselves.

"Ask yourself, why I would choose to prostitute myself, to live with fortune and shame."

[Moonlight J]

I was actually a bit worried about the album after the Metallica farce. Thank you, Mr. Rose for having integrity regarding the art you conceive. The record blows my mind over and over, and thanks to you, the Wiscowsin winter won't suck nearly as much as it usually does.

[allwaystired]

This might sound like an odd question, (and it might even be a problem with my cd) but has anyone noticed that the cd sound of the cd is a lot quietier and less 'clean'  and 'crisp' than the other Guns N Roses albums? Just switched between Deocracy and Illusion 1, and found it very noticable how much cleaner the sound is, and how much louder the albu seems to be mastered.

Does anyone else have any views on this matter?

[Chris55]

It sounds WAY better because Rick Rubin wasn't around to blast the shit out of it like he did with Metallica

[TWT]

It's nothing to do with the production, but yeah it's the quietest album I've heard recently. There's nothing wrong with the clarity of the music once you turn it up.

[AC]

There were two things that I wished for on this album:

1) No songs fade away; and,
2) Very little to no compression - full dynamics.

Both my wishes came true. It truly is a masterpiece...

a.

[Pinball Wizard]

There were two things that I wished for on this album:

1) No songs fade away;

Shit, I thought I was the only who hated this!!!

Songs that ends with fade out SUCKS! 

[SINSHINE]

There were two things that I wished for on this album:

1) No songs fade away;

Shit, I thought I was the only who hated this!!!

Songs that ends with fade out SUCKS! 

Do you forgive 'Prostitute' for fading out, as it is the last song on the album (granted, not a traditional 'fade out' while lyrics are still being sung, but still a fade out)?

[Pinball Wizard]

There were two things that I wished for on this album:

1) No songs fade away;

Shit, I thought I was the only who hated this!!!

Songs that ends with fade out SUCKS! 

Do you forgive 'Prostitute' for fading out, as it is the last song on the album (granted, not a traditional 'fade out' while lyrics are still being sung, but still a fade out)?

Well, Prostitute is my least favorite song from CD, but yet, it's fade out is what I like to call a "natural" fade out, I mean, is a fade out that can be reproduced by the band if they're playing the song live, it's not like Nightrain's studio version, for exemple...

[jazjme]

This is something, I also really enjoy, every song has a proper end, and no fade out. Even Prostitute, it hs a cclassic fade but a swell at very end concluding it.

[AC]

There were two things that I wished for on this album:

1) No songs fade away;

Shit, I thought I was the only who hated this!!!

Songs that ends with fade out SUCKS! 

Do you forgive 'Prostitute' for fading out, as it is the last song on the album (granted, not a traditional 'fade out' while lyrics are still being sung, but still a fade out)?

Well, Prostitute is my least favorite song from CD, but yet, it's fade out is what I like to call a "natural" fade out, I mean, is a fade out that can be reproduced by the band if they're playing the song live, it's not like Nightrain's studio version, for exemple...

Prostitute does not fade out. There's a string arrangement at the end that plays and becomes naturally softer and is composed that way. It's not the same thing as Nightrain as mentioned.

a.

[Pinball Wizard]

There were two things that I wished for on this album:

1) No songs fade away;

Shit, I thought I was the only who hated this!!!

Songs that ends with fade out SUCKS! 

Do you forgive 'Prostitute' for fading out, as it is the last song on the album (granted, not a traditional 'fade out' while lyrics are still being sung, but still a fade out)?

Well, Prostitute is my least favorite song from CD, but yet, it's fade out is what I like to call a "natural" fade out, I mean, is a fade out that can be reproduced by the band if they're playing the song live, it's not like Nightrain's studio version, for exemple...

Prostitute does not fade out. There's a string arrangement at the end that plays and becomes naturally softer and is composed that way. It's not the same thing as Nightrain as mentioned.

a.

Exactly. That's why I said it's some sort of "natural" fade out, because it's part of the song's arrangement. Different than selecting the last 30seconds of the song on pro tools and make an artificial fade out out of it...

[AC]

There were two things that I wished for on this album:

1) No songs fade away;

Shit, I thought I was the only who hated this!!!

Songs that ends with fade out SUCKS! 

Do you forgive 'Prostitute' for fading out, as it is the last song on the album (granted, not a traditional 'fade out' while lyrics are still being sung, but still a fade out)?

Well, Prostitute is my least favorite song from CD, but yet, it's fade out is what I like to call a "natural" fade out, I mean, is a fade out that can be reproduced by the band if they're playing the song live, it's not like Nightrain's studio version, for exemple...

Prostitute does not fade out. There's a string arrangement at the end that plays and becomes naturally softer and is composed that way. It's not the same thing as Nightrain as mentioned.

a.

Exactly. That's why I said it's some sort of "natural" fade out, because it's part of the song's arrangement. Different than selecting the last 30seconds of the song on pro tools and make an artificial fade out out of it...

I know. I was agreeing with you, didn't come off that way though. My bad.

a.

[wells]

some more discussion on CD from a different angle (most of the time)... for me it is way more interesting than most of the topics lately about Axl AWOL or Robin leaving...

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/344568-guns-n-roses-chinese-democracy.html

hope some others will enjoy it also.

[King Axl]

I have to agree with Mr. Ludwig's comments about how layered and complex the songs are. After 30+ listenings of the record, I am still hearing things I hadn't heard before.

One of these days I'm going to listen to the CD through headphones and be totally awestruck.

It's also pretty cool that the CD was mastered up in Portland, Maine. That's only about 75 miles away from me.