Here Today... Gone To Hell!

This is going to be awesome, can't wait!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSa2j6UoU78

I have my problems with Bill Maher, but I look forward to this. It is past time people put these religious assholes in their place.

Looks like a good one.

All praise the flying spaghetti monster.

Religious assholes? And I thought I was notorious in making outrageous generalisations. :P

But maybe the practice of religions is diferent in USA than Scandinavia.

I don't discriminate, all religious people are deluded assholes.

 Ok, maybe not assholes; just deluded.

Why deluded?

The spiritual part is just a small part of the actual practise of religions, often the spiritual parts is dropped altogether.
Like with the Olympic Games.

It's based on a ceremony where men were to do a series of activities, the winner were to produce with a priestiess.
THAT is what OL is based on.

I myself worked briefly in a Christian (and I am anti-Christian :hihi: ) group.

The main thing they did was give away food, toys, clothes, furniture etc to those who needed.
By doing that they where operating from Christian ideas, values and ideology.

When it comes to the ritualmagic, singing songs and praying was done with focus on the social and mental aspects. Not spiritual.
The Christian group used to have weekly dinner for example, for all to come.

Or trying to help people in a tough situation, help in humanitary issues basicly.

So you see, at least where I live that religous people are far from deluded.

For the same reasons of Greek Mythology. I have been drinking heavily, and I might not be able to explain myself well, but I think it is readily apparent, to anyone with an open mind, that religion is bullshit.

I think Greek mythology are great. Thats some of the best ideologies when put in practise.
It's a great foundation for eucological industry for example.

Not that you'd need religion to live after certain ideals, values but I am just pointing out religion is far more than beliving blindly in some myths or the existence of a specific god, godess.

My favorite are the pagan religions and the Nordic gods. Fr?y anyone? :hihi:

A noble God, but Thor will kick his ass.

How so? Name one non-supernatural related thing that religious people do that nonreligious people don't do.

Avoid porn?

LOL.  myth.   

But thats what I said, you don't need religion to do x, y and z.
I'm just pointing out that the practise of religions are more diverse and non-stereotypic then what some people seem to think.

It's both good and bad elements, depends on the practicants really. :peace:

ok, but the part of religion which actually makes it religion is pretty uniform.

Bill Maher is a jackass.

First off, there are a lot of religious nutjobs in the world sure, but there are also people are very intelligent, logical, down-to-earth people who have firm convictions about their faith and have gathered that conviction through critical analysis of the Bible/Qur'an/religious text and historical fact.

Second, Bill doesn't know the facts. He's merely exploiting extremism for humor. Not to mention he so proudly declared that he hadn't read a book in years. Regardless if that statement was truth or not, he's merely taking his opinions, glorifying them, and stating them as fact all the while exploiting both the religious extremists and preying on people with limited knowledge.

If he wants to make a movie, then make a make a satire. But this is nothing more than a dishonest "documentary" with a cynical ideology and agenda.

Hahaha.....good one   ;D

Looks awesome!! 

You mean like organized religion does?

Haha, that is the classical definition of an oxymoron.

Ok. You're entitled to your opinion.

Anyway, the point is he's being confrontational and not helping the problem. If people think certain religious people are crazy, then fine.
But what he's doing in this movie is encouraging division. The non-religious people will laugh and be all "ha-ha", the religious people will
just be pissed off that people are giving them crap. Then it's a big fight.

There's no open and honest dialogue. No one exchanging their ideas in a respectful arena. Then the fighting continues and everything stays the same.

The same old Civil War we've been fighting for decades.

So it's ok for religious people to encourage division and try to mock the beliefs of atheists, but not the other way around?

Did I say that?
No, obviously I didn't. And no, obviously that's not okay.

I think you'd find the vast vast vast vast majority of religious people have been indoctrinated into their faith from a very young age.

Yeah really. People don't generally come to religion because of critical analysis. There's a reason that Jesus called his followers sheep.

I am thoroughly enjoying the inherent contradiction in that sentence.  It's a beaut!

don't you think you should see the movie first before assuming you know what it's going to be like?  I love when people (not saying you) are all like "ban this movie, it's not right/fair!" and it hasn't even come out yet  :hihi:

Some of you love putting words in people's mouths and making assumptions. I never said anything like that.

I didn't say ban it or anything. Even if I don't agree with it, that's fine. I thought we were past the whole witch-burning, art-destroying
kind of thing, but on second thought, I doubt America is.

But the point is, I know Bill Maher and trailer gives a very strong impression of what the movie is going to be. Divisive, all in the name of humor
and that it isn't helping anything, it's merely prolonging a conflict and poking an open wound.


Yes but you're taking that scripture out of context. Jesus also said that the road was narrow and only a few find it. And that anyone who didn't give up everything, could not be his disciple.
In a culture of easy-access, quick fixes, instant gratification, etc., a lot of people are going to be falling short of the true "giving up everything" type of faith.

But regardless, most "religious", "spiritual", and "Christian" people wouldn't know what The Bible says or doesn't say, they don't read it.

Amen.

Haha....

I was indoctrinated by Christianity, but am now a great beliver in the pagan ideology and way of life.. :peace:

I CCL for the spiritual part, but somethings gotta exist.
Yeah, he is making a video of two stereo-types. I don't respect that so much.
Why don't he film those doing humanitary work in Africa and make fun of them for example?

The bad taste would be equal.

I'd like to think to be religious has because of Judeo-Christianity become synonymous to being weak and stupid.
But Islam and other religious groups doing great work too :hihi:

It's all about the practicans. Like Heavy Rock itself is not to blame for murder, suicieds and substance abuse.

Is it just me or is it really true...I see many more of my friends, including me, much less religious as age and educational levels add up.  I'm sorry, I don't see the same thing on the other side.  There isn't this mass migration of brilliant scientists "finding God/s" and denying or belittling science.

Might I add, there is little incongruency between science and faith...the problem arises when faith denies science.  There is no reason why God/Gods can't be possible...but, so many religious fanatics take moronic sacred texts literally instead of the alegorical stories they were/should be intended to be. 

mrbucketfoot, serious question.  I don't mean to provoke or inflame, but I am assuming you consider the bible to be a very special book, perhaps thee most important book.  Does this mean you view the koran or ancient hindu texts, etc. in a lesser light?  Why do you think that is, and do you think that's right?  Honest question.   :peace:

I'm not hostile toward faith or belief in the least.  I'm hostile toward people who believe their faith should be imposed upon all of us, by trumping, amending, or circumventing the Constitution.  I'm hostile toward hypocrisy, wherein the religious are overwhelmingly concerned about whose penis is going in whom, yet they don't give a fuck about the billions of impoverished people, as if poverty wasn't the very core of Christs message, rather than gay sex or abortion.  The list goes on...

No it's not just you. It's been consistently shown in studies over the last 100 years that higher educational levels correlate with lower levels of religious belief.

Freedom, I sure didn't try to suggest you were hostile, I totally agree with your posts.   :peace:

No, not at all.  "Hostile" was my word, and my description of my own views.  Not trying to put words in your mouth.  :beer:

I'm not posting from a Judeo-Christian viewpoint or whatever, but since Christianity is what most religious Americans practice, I was using that as a base. My problem with the movie, as demonstrated by the trailer, is that it looks to demean the religions for the sake of comedy. If you think religion is ridiculous, then you can clearly and respectfully state your opinion, and maybe someone will be won over by your openness/ knowledge/respect and vice versa, but provoking someone or calling either side ridiculous/crazy/ignorant, etc. won't help your cause at all. Life's too short to fight.

And the question you pose about viewing other religious texts is a complicated one. But in short, most of the faiths, Islam/Christianity/Judaism, "people of the Book" as they are called, believe that their scripture is divinely inspired by a specific God, so through that lens, their specific Religious Text (whether that is the Qur'an or Bible or Torah, etc.) would put extreme and higher importance on that Religious Text than others. Thinking any less, would infringe upon the Texts themselves, and thus the believer (of whatever faith) would be "in the wrong". I don't really know your exact definition of "lesser light", but according to whatever faith, their scripture takes precedence over the others. Does that mean demean the other religions? No. Call them evil and a blight against (their) God? No.

That being said, my personal thought is that if you have a religion/faith then practice it to it's utmost. There are enough hypocrites in the world. And personally, whatever religion I am or am not, I feel that it would be irresponsible to not study the other religious/spiritual texts for both spiritual/religious/non-religious people as there is a lot of practical wisdom in all of them. At the very least, study them to understand someone else's viewpoint and why they believe things so strongly. If more people did that there wouldn't be as much tension nor would we simply co-exist with each other, but communicate, open and honestly about our beliefs and disbeliefs, mistakes and triumphs and grow closer as a society.

The problem that people seem to have in general isn't the religions, but the people that intermix their opinion and take religion into their own hands and out of their God's.

Like I said, it's not a simple 5-minute explanation kind of thing, but hopefully I shed some insight.

Thats a gross stereotype. :hihi:
Ritualmagic and myths* about gods is just a small part of religion, it's really about philosophy, ideologi, worldviews etc...

Science and religion doesn't have to be mutualy exlusive either actually.
An ancient Scandinavian belief system about man and needs could easily replace the system of "the pyramid of needs" by Maslow.

I think the American view on religion is very demonized by media, it's bad stuff of course but... :P

*The myths often just have the purpose of sending a message, and a entertainment/magical aspect that makes it more attractive for a more in-depth analyzis. Typical comercial methodiks.
This probably why they have the impact on humans that they have.

So called "satanist" have the belief man should listen the god/s within themselfs and nature but satanism have countless definitions.

"Gross stereotype," I don't understand what you are calling a "gross stereotype" Norway.

Statistical studies of religious belief vs education/intelligence from 1927 to recent times.

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm

That is true TAP.

You know what still gets me though is our planet and the story about how it was created. This is the ultimate jack pot.  It is too mind boggling to think science alone created this planet and that we came from bacteria in the ocean to humans....  Also, science creating this beautiful planet, its just too perfect.  The animals are too perfect.  The humans are too perfect and complex to just come from a fucking bacteria think a few billion years ago.  Its just so crazy.  That is when I am like, "even science can't back this shit up" maybe something else is involved.  Earth is just close enough to the sun.  The perfect location.  Too many things are just tooo perfect for all these things to just "happen".  Is nature that perfect?  And its hard to beleive another planet could be as perfect as Earth unless of coarse, there was something else involved. 

This plant is too well thought out and too well place and everything was just created too perfectly for it all to have happened by pure chance.  If you think we are here because of the "big bang" great, but what created the stuff for the big bang to take place? 

I'll agree that it's hard to get your head around a lot of this stuff, and I won't pretend to have answers or understand most of it. But one key is in your post 'a few billion years ago'. We think in time spans of hours, days, years - things happen quickly in our frame of reference. The stuff you are talking about happened really, really slowly.



Humans are far from perfect in my opinion. For one thing we die, but there's lots more besides that - childbirth is fundamental to our survival for example and that is far from a perfect process. Anyway, for me random mutation and natural selection is so elegant and simple once you get your head round what it really says, that no other explanation comes close.


There are an estimated 30000000000000000 stars in the universe. The probability of a planet having the right properties for the appearance and survival of life are very small for one sun, but rather higher for 3 thousand million billion suns. We're lucky in a sense that Earth is one of those, but the fact that a species somewhere in the universe has evolved enough  to quantify luck isn't unlikely.


Evolution is not chance. The vast majority of species are extinct, we just happen to belong to one that adapted to our environment and survived.


I won't pretend to understand the big bang, but it is one of many competing theories about the origins of the universe. It's hard to even comprehend what it would mean for such an event to happen by chance, but if you believe it didn't happen by chance then it requires something which is more complex and advanced than the universe, and then you've just made the question infinitely harder....what/who created the creator?

Tap!!!!!!!  Holy Smokes, check out these images from the hubble.  Simply amazing.  Our universe is so awesome.

http://www.parade.com/index.jsp

Beautiful Pictures

Tap, I don't know what the hell happened either.  I really don't.  My brain hurts thinking about it all.  You are right it it a very slow process.  This may be a dumb question, but if we came from monkeys or apes, why are there still apes?

We don't come from monkeys or apes, we have a common ancestor.

Thanks!  I thought we "evolved" from apes.  Thanks for the clarification. Check out the pics from the hubble.

kind of off topic, but how come everytime i see those commericals for christian music cds, everyone in the crowd has their eyes closed and their hands raised up to the air?   

i want to listen to some arm raisin, eye closin jesus rock.

You aint seen nuthin' till you've seen John Tesh on Trinity Broadcast Network!!  He does some sort of hip-hop, opera, rock deal (hip-hopera-rock)  Trust me, Jesus must be very happy!   :hihi:

The thing I don't get about that crap, is why all the praising?  Does God have low confidence?  Is he the guy everybody always has to remind how great he is?  I just don't understand that.  Perhaps I'll have to pray to get the answer.  Hold my calls please, I'm gonna need some time with this.  :hihi: 

Its called faith.  Why does Jarmo praise to Axl so much?  Do he have confidence issues?

The Pope is helping....

?Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached?

?Christian denominations outside Roman Catholicism are either defective or are not full churches of Jesus Christ"

"Let us pray for the Jews. May the Lord Our God enlighten their hearts so that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ, the savior of all men."

"[modern-day atheism] has led to some of the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice ever known to mankind."

Does Axl have confidence issues? I'd say so.

We don't know, but they're looking. Just because something is unknown, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I don't know exatcly how a TV works, but I don't assume God did it. As far as things being "too perfect" yeah, well, there ya go. You're right, if certain things weren't exactly as they are, there would not be life, but it doesn't rule out chance. No one was around to count the number of times the Universe expanded and contracted (if it did) before life could arise.

I stand corrected  ::)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/23/turkey.islam

A hitherto largely unknown Turkish Islamic scholar, Fethullah G?len, has been voted the world's top intellectual in a poll to find the leading 100 thinkers.

G?len, the author of more than 60 books, won a landslide triumph after the survey - which is organised by the British magazine, Prospect, and Foreign Policy, a US publication - attracted more than 500,000 votes.

The top 10 individuals were all Muslim and included two Nobel laureates, the novelist Orhan Pamuk, who is also Turkish, at No 4, and the Iranian human rights lawyer Shirin Ebadi, in 10th.

The result surprised organisers, who attributed it to a sustained campaign by G?len's followers, known as the G?len Movement, after Turkey's biggest-selling newspaper, Zaman, publicised the poll.

Smoking Guns
...faith is great.  It's the praise concept that's all fucked-up.  

Faith:  belief and trust in and loyalty to God.  (that's Webster's Dictionary)

Why does it have to be repeated over and over and over and over?  Think of all that wasted time.  If religious folks spent more time doing rather than praying, we'd have a lot less problems.  Just an idea.   :peace:

btw, I don't think Jarmo runs around all day with his arms up praising Axl...and no, I don't think he has shrines to Axl either.

Like I said before the problem with religion is when people intermix their opinion and take religion 'into their own hands' and out of God's and what their scriptures say. This is the case with all extremists of every religion. This is why you see so many denominations of Christianity in America. A whole lot of "opinion" involved in that.

And sadly there is more emphasis on the extremist crazies than the legitimate people. It's like in music. Do you judge rock n' roll music by the standard of horrible emo/hipster bands like Fall Out Boy and Panic at the Disco or do you judge it by bands like Led Zeppelin, Guns N' Roses, and The Rolling Stones, etc.?

Same with religion, you need to judge it by those living it properly and proper study of that religion's scriptures. The problem is that people see the extremists and think that is what that religion teaches and are turned off by that.

It's ironic that Christianity is so popular in America because most of things that Christianity is derided for: the xenophobia, racism, homophobia, etc. would all be rooted out if these "American Christians" would just live by what their scriptures taught them. But like I said, they wouldn't know what The Bible says, because they don't read it.

Hypocrisy, xenophobia, and contradiction has been with America since her inception, somehow we've found a way to sweep it into the corner and pretend that it's not there, so this documentary (as shown by the trailer) is justified in it's intentions, but not in the way it's going about executing them.

Who knows, the movie could be totally different, but it's presented in a very "extremist" way and that's why I took issue with it.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not sure why I should take mrbucketfoot from the HTGTH forum's version of what religion really is over the pope's. You haven't presented any compelling arguments.

See: the long history of corruption in the Popes and Clergy.

Point - Bucketfoot.  :hihi:

But I gotta get going, talk to you later.

 :rofl:  Guys, I WAS JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My bad!   :peace:  Like I said, too much heat yesterday...fried my brain...especially the region controlling comprehension of sarcasm!   :hihi:

A lot of religions embraces this selection. :peace:

Imo, religions diferent take on the creation (Cosmology) is quite fun. Obviously it should be taken with a big grain of salt :hihi:
I don't agree too much with that,
- scriptures interpret into practise today stemming from religious fundaments are all "right" in one way or another.

The problem I see is when people don't take responsebillety for their own actions and hold the ethics within a religion responsible.

Both this is somewhat related of course, but adults support this by choice (or thats how it should be maybe).

People with downs, dwarfs, defects etc...I think any healthy and sane person should support abortion on this matter.
But thats my opinions, that there are religions that correspond with that standpoint is just an addition.

One must be careful and not be too conservative to any of this, but thats how it is with everything. :peace:
Yeah, but then again, since then politicial and similar groups have grown and adopted (and with that, replaced) those parts of religion and just rejected the spritiual parts.
I still think there is place of sensible religious practise in a modern world. :peace:

Your underlying point seems to be that religion isn't bad, it's just that most people have got religion wrong because they don't understand it. But religion is, pretty much by definition, what people do rather than what is 'correct'.

That maybe so, but i'm not sure what it has to do with anything in this thread. The two points in this thread you seem to be responding to are

1. Religious people are deluded. This is clearly in regard to the spiritual/supernatural belief part of religion. I don't think anyone would argue that many people perform good deeds because they are religious, or that some religions incorporate worthy philosophy. But neither of those things have anything to do with what makes something a religion in the first place.

2. Education levels are negatively correlated with religious belief There's consistent, strong evidence for this in the link I posted and in many other studies. Throwing the supernatural out of religion doesn't change this.

Carlin on religion...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

"You know who I pray to, Joe Pesci" ...too funny, what a loss  :'(

Dude, you're joking right? BucketHead IS god!! 

 :hihi:

I didn't realize he was the real Buckethead, was assuming a false idol  :)

I wondered that too.

A better question might be one of why each of those CDs has the same songs as the one before.  And are people are dumb enough to buy more than one?

Something has to change.
Un-deniable dilemma.
Boredom's not a burden
Anyone should bear.

Constant over stimu-lation numbs me
but I would not want you
any other way.

It's not enough.
I need more.
Nothing seems to satisfy.
I don't want it.
I just need it.
To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Finger deep within the borderline.
Show me that you love me and that we belong together.
Relax, turn around and take my hand.

I can help you change
Tired moments into pleasure.
Say the word and we'll be
Well upon our way.

Blend and balance
Pain and comfort
Deep within you
Till you will not want me any other way.

It's not enough.
I need more.
Nothing seems to satisfy.
I don't want it.
I just need it.
To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Knuckle deep inside the borderline.
This may hurt a little but it's something you'll get used to.
Relax. Slip away.

Something kinda sad about
the way that things have come to be.
Desensitized to everything.
What became of subtlety?

How can this mean anything to me
If I really don't feel anything at all?

I'll keep digging till
I feel something.

Elbow deep inside the borderline.
Show me that you love me and that we belong together.
Shoulder deep within the borderline.
Relax. Turn around and take my hand.

- MJK

Organized religion is nothing more than a glorified popularity contest.  And people pay to participate in it.   Crazy.

Listen here Heathen2k!..................nice post.  :)

In this trailer he addresses the wackiness of Christianity and Islam (ok, by me)...but why not include Judaism too who got the same wack things as the others?

Oh, right...Maher is a Jew....and he is very pro-Israel, so a no-go area  :peace:


*waits for the "yew ar am antey seemait"-drones*  : ok:

Boy Atilla, a little defensive, eh?  What makes you think Maher is going to attack just a few major religions?  Get a clue.

The trailer never showed him attacking Judaism....he also never did it in his shows....ever....

I am for equality...attack all religions then, not just the ones your masters don't like. If he doesn't attack Judaism as much as Christianity and islam, he is a hired puppet, end of  :peace:

And "boy axl4"...me defensive? No it's called, offensive ;)

I would be defensive if I was religious, christian or moslem, which I am not. I am showing the hypocrisy involved here  : ok:

http://www.disbeliefnet.com/

False.   I have no education in Judaism.   That doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to express an opinion about Christianity. 

The movie is about all religion being wack (which I agree with)....so why exclude Judaism...? Maher is jewish, he supports Israel aggressively...and anyone who doesn't see the connections is sleeping : ok:

He doesn't, you're wrong. I doubt he edited the trailer himself.

There are countless religions out there.  Should he devote half an hour to Summum too?  Let's wait till the movie is released and see.

You don't have to wait. Click on the link I posted above - it's Maher's new site to tie in with the movie, it's quite clear that Judaism is included.

I was always under the impression that Stinkfist was about anal sex. Now tell me, what exactly does anal sex have to do with religi...

... Oh. My bad.

I'm not sure if this post belongs in this thread, so if it doesn't apply, I'm sorry. The following is a transcript of George Carlins thougths on the 10 comandments. While it's funny, it's also VERY true. Here goes:

Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?

You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. Here's what happened:

About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.

Well let me ask you this- when they were making this shit up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bullshit list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.

Let's start with the first three:

I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME

THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN

THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH

Right off the bat the first three are pure bullshit. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:

HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER

Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.

Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS

Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.

And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE

Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital infidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.

But when you think about it, honesty and infidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR"S GOODS

This one is just plain fuckin' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:

THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:

Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.

&

Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.

Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his fuckin' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:

Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

While I don't disagree at all with your conclusions about the commandments, I think you are mistaken here. Ten is arbitrarily important, and has only been universally so in more recent times than the Old Testament. We could have chosen any number to be the important 'base', and older civilizations did - for example the Mayans chose 20, the Romans arguably used 5, though the ancient Egyptians admittedly used 10. Ten is only written as 10 because at some point we (actually the Hindus) decided to do it that way - most likely because we have ten fingers but no one knows for sure.

If you read that/those parts of the bible, it's not even clear that there are ten commandments or which ones are the important ten. Different Christian denominations, and Judaism, divide them up differently. And there are actually 100s of commandments in all. In my opinion, what most likely happened is that later bible translators arbitrarily chose ten because by that time ten was an 'important' or 'official' sounding number.

But I think the meaning of how they can reduced is, they all kind of fall into the same category. Honesty.

Now to the movie and the original argument. I do happen to think all religion is a big ball of bullshit. Some people might call me agnostic, but even ANY label is bullshit. Now, don't get me wrong, if someone is religious, fine, cool, I'm not going to dislike or disrespect that person for their beleifs. Just lay of the BS when your around me. Chrisianity is the worst, especialy the Catholic version. I feel sorry for any child born into a Catholic family, hopefully when they get older they'll see the truth. All that religion does is teach you to be afraid. Don't do this, don't do that, don't listen to this, don't eat this food on this day and a million other things that are "sins"...........all pure fucking bullshit. Now I'm not talking about everyone who goes to church or anything like that. I'm talking about the brainwashed twats that actually, truly beleive the words in the bible.

Ok, lets say they're was a Jesus. His mom was Mary. She ain't no virgin, bitch got her cherry popped and had a kid out of wedlock, which, I remind you, is a sin of Catholics.

I could go on and on.

Look into your heart, find yourself, and you'll do just fine.

I don't disagree with any of that, just think that the number 10 was being treated a little unfairly  ;D

R.I.P. George!  Thanks for posting that!  Absolutely hilarious...how true.  :)

He was quoting Carlin :)

What you said, or rather your basic summation, was actually in Carlin's piece itself  "Well let me ask you this- when they were making this shit up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision!"

Yeah I read that. My point is the leaders of illiterate sheepherding tribes in the desert 5000 years ago didn't have ten in mind when they wrote this stuff down to keep social order. The marketing decision came much later when the compilers of the bible decided that those local in time and space rules should apply globally and forever.

There is no contradiction in my reply. If anyone can show me even slightest evidence of a God, I will "beleive". If someone came up to you on the street and told you about a magic sky fairy that grants wishes, you would probably think that person was deluded ... I know I would.


Actually, it is closer to 40 nonillion(4.0x10^40);That is a 4 with 40 zeros. There are more stars in the Universe than all the grains of sand on every beach, in every ocean, and in every desert on this planet ... which makes your point even more poignant.

I just liked the presence of "open mind" and "religion is bullshit" in the same sentence.  ;D

So....I missed a few :)

No, this is a major part of all religions. The spiritual/supernatural parts is just a small novelty.
The thing is, people are selective and like to focus on those parts of religious practise when they make fun of them.

I know there is people that believes blindly in it, it's funny :hihi:

The myths usually have the purpose of telling about values, morals and points.
Humans also have a BIG admiration of the mystical and scary and the myths delivers just that.

When you think about it, human behaviour are still based around the main charracteristics of ancient religious practise.

It's like telling children about Santa Claus or telling stories about kind children getting presents from Santa.
It has a clever message ;)

Beside the entertaintment people get stuck up in, -
- all religions has a obvious message about ideology and philosophy. Just like stories. Nothing special :)

Today we have substitutes to religion like political groups, theathers, art etc, which is just as good I guess :peace:

It is a major part of human nature; it has nothing to do with religion.

Exactly. You can falsely attribute just about anything to religion, since religion has dominated history.

Dammit TAP, don't you understand?  We are all sinners by nature.  All that is good comes only through our Lord Jesus Christ and God above.  Repent now!!!   

Sinning is awesome. I try to hit double figures every day, more at the weekend.

Is this legislating from the bench?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25423465/

FORT WORTH, Texas - The Texas Supreme Court on Friday threw out a jury award over injuries a 17-year-old girl suffered in an exorcism conducted by members of her old church, ruling that the case unconstitutionally entangled the court in religious matters.

In a 6-3 decision, the justices found that a lower court erred when it said the Pleasant Glade Assembly of God's First Amendment rights regarding freedom of religion did not prevent the church from being held liable for mental distress triggered by a "hyper-spiritualistic environment."

Laura Schubert testified in 2002 that she was cut and bruised and later experienced hallucinations after the church members' actions in 1996, when she was 17. Schubert said she was pinned to the floor for hours and received carpet burns during the exorcism, the Austin American-Statesman reported. She also said the incident led her to mutilate herself and attempt suicide. She eventually sought psychiatric help.

But the church's attorneys had told jurors that her psychological problems were caused by traumatic events she witnessed with her missionary parents in Africa. The church contended she "freaked out" about following her father's life as a missionary and was acting out to gain attention.

Abuse and false imprisonment?
The 2002 trial of the case never touched on the religious aspects, and a Tarrant County jury found the Colleyville church and its members liable for abusing and falsely imprisoning the girl. The jury awarded her $300,000, though the 2nd Court of Appeals in Fort Worth later reduced the verdict to $188,000.

Justice David Medina wrote that finding the church liable "would have an unconstitutional 'chilling effect' by compelling the church to abandon core principles of its religious beliefs."

But Chief Justice Wallace Jefferson, in a dissenting opinion, stated that the "sweeping immunity" is inconsistent with U.S. Supreme Court precedent and extends far beyond the Constitution's protections for religious conduct.

'Intentional abuse'

"The First Amendment guards religious liberty; it does not sanction intentional abuse in religion's name," Jefferson wrote.

After the 2002 verdict, Pleasant Glade merged with another congregation in Colleyville, a Fort Worth suburb.

A message left for the church's attorney Friday evening was not immediately returned, and calls to two numbers listed in Schubert's name went unanswered.

In Appalachia, that is synonymous with snake handlers and strychnine drinkers

Well duh, but undoubtly human nature and nature is a part of many religions. Or should I say, the essence :P

It's quite intresting to read about :peace:

Early Christians were plagiarists?   :hihi:

Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

By ETHAN BRONNER
Published: July 6, 2008

JERUSALEM ? A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

When David Jeselsohn bought an ancient tablet, above, he was unaware of its significance.

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to some scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with ink writings from that era ? in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone.

It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to columns in a Torah. But the stone is broken, and some of the text is faded, meaning that much of what it says is open to debate.

Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role in helping to understand the roots of Christianity in the devastating political crisis faced by the Jews of the time seems likely to increase.

Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of California at Berkeley, said that the stone was part of a growing body of evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a close reading of the Jewish history of his day.

?Some Christians will find it shocking ? a challenge to the uniqueness of their theology ? while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism,? Mr. Boyarin said.

Joseph Smith certainly was...among other things.

I'm pretty sure, I even think the Bible were tailor-written to become popular in Europa. :P

This is so weird how many people had religion and Jesus is Bullshit, but their leader, Axl, believes in God and Jesus and collects crucifixes.........  Wow.

Who is Axl the leader of?

Admiring a musicians music or an athletes performance doesn't mean you HAVE to prescribe to all of their political and religious beliefs.  I have PLENTY of friends whos political and religious beliefs differ greatly from mine...  go figure.

Axl Rose GNR, I suggest you spend a little more time worrying about yourself and your "beliefs" or lack there of and a little less time worrying about what other people do that make THEM feel good about themselves.  Most Arabs, Jews, Catholics, Baptists, are happy with what they are.  Are you happy with what you are?  I have no answers, but I know there is freedom of religion and freedom from religion.  Its all personal choice and we really shouldn't call any of "it" bullshit.  To many its the most important thing in their life.  I respect anyone that is devoted to something they beleive in.  I just don't like to see so much anti religion stuff when that was a big part on how this country was founded.  

All his nutswingers.  Hill, I was being sarcastic, but it is weird how Axl's personal religious faith gets blasted here.  In November Rain, I didn't see Axl getting married at a Court house.  He was married in his video in the "House of God."  Just saying, thought it was funny.  You are right, you don't have to be into what Axl is into, just thought it was funny.

No, it wasn't. And that's really the point, religion has never been able to keep itself to itself - it's not in its nature. Also Arab isn't a religion.

Why do American Christians get so oversensitive about criticism of their religion when

1. You are politically, financially and numerically dominant in the most powerful nation in history. It's not like you're being thrown to the lions these days.
2. You have an all powerful and all knowing deity on your side.
3. You have an eternity in heaven to look forward to.

Irrelevant.

If religion was just a belief, neither the movie nor this thread would exist. I suspect you have to go further out of your way to find religion bashing, than I do to find religion infringing on my life. When was the last time you had atheists knocking on your door wanting to talk about evolution for example?

What a cop out Tap.  Its much easier to take your route of a non believer than actually choose from many of the religions and find one you like.  Its much easier to dismiss everything and call it all Bullshit.  That is your right and your freedom.  There is nothing wrong with your lack of faith or beliefs.  But when 95% of the world believes in a higher power, you are going to be on the outside looking in.  Its okay.  You could be gay and have straightness shoved down your throat. 

"My particular church was filled with self-righteous hypocrites who were child abusers and child molesters. These were people who'd been damaged in their own childhoods and in their lives. These were people who were finding God but still living with their damage and inflicting it upon their children. I had to go to church anywhere from three to eight times a week. l even taught Bible school while l was being beaten and my sister was being molested"

- Axl Rose

http://hem.passagen.se/snoqalf/art-1992-RIP-1.html (http://hem.passagen.se/snoqalf/art-1992-RIP-1.html)

Axl Rose being molested doesn't mean he stopped believing in God.

And how do you know what the man does, or doesn't believe in?

Well, at least into his early 30's he was still a collector of Crucifixes.  Also would he protray himself in a tradational church wedding and risk his image if he didn't feel comfortable doing it? 

I wouldn't interpret someone as deeply religious just because they collect crucifixes.

I wear a cross, but I'm not religious.

How was he risking his image by participating in a traditional wedding?

Lots of people get married in a church, and aren't religious.

Hell, I'll probably get married in a church, and I'm not religious.

There is a difference between being spiritual and religious, Smoking Guns.

Oh, I agree with all that, I am not saying he goes to church, but like you said, is spiritual.  I think he beleives in a higher power and would assume a Christain faith.

Yeah, Axl is definately a spiritual dude :)

Well that makes a whole load of sense. It's much easier to be religious....and seriously, do you really think that people choose their own religions, and it's not generally determined by their family and community? You're in the southern US right, and you 'chose' Christianity over Hinduism after a careful consideration of both religions I'm sure.

You are damn right about that Tap.  It is huge on what your parents do.  You have an advantage, you don't believe in anything.  So you can be more objective.  I am tainted because I was brought up a certain way.  I could have converted to anything though.  My parents were cool that way. I wasn't forced to do anything.  I attended functions of many faiths.  I find the new friends you meet out weighs being annoyed to join another church.

Do you know how fucking awkward this is?  I'm looking down at my hand-held e-mail device as I'm standing on Smoking Guns' doorstep all prepared to lecture him on the benefits of an existence free of religion...and BAM!  TAP makes this post!   :hihi:

Seriously, November Rain was a stretch Smoking Guns.  In videos, Axl's been laughing it up driving with Satan himself, I don't think that means he condones Satanic worship.

Also, I bet Marilyn Manson collects crucifixes too...as it was pointed out, a crucifix fetish doesn't mean you are religious.

TAP makes excellent points.  I can't find one I disagree with.  :beer:

Obviously, Axl's a spiritual guy...the cool part about him is that he's never forced his personal beliefs on anybody else.  "Most organized religions make a mockery of humanity..."  Couple that with his upbringing mentioned earlier in this thread.  Couple that with his chronicled spiritual dalliances in the late '90's...we're all kinda searching....it's the a-holes who think their way is the best that we're talkin' 'bout S. Guns.  The a-holes who will tell others who don't believe the way they do, they're goin' to hell.

Now, imagine a world where we didn't indoctrinate children with religion up to the age of 18.....can you imagine how many would still choose to join a religion?  Trust me, it would fade like the setting sun.  People would learn that real peace and real spirituality isn't found in public gatherings...it's found within themselves.  

 Smoking Guns said, "Axl Rose being molested doesn't mean he stopped believing in God."  I'll agree with that.  It probably strengthened his faith.  People whose lives are hell need something good to look forward to.  That's the allure of heaven.  It's one of the main reasons you find those on the bottom of the socio-economic totem pole so disproportionally drawn to religion.
 :peace:

I was brought up (maybe even brainwashed) Christian - most self-defined atheists were also in my experience. You're right, I did have advantages, cool parents who didn't object when I realized religion had nothing for me in my teenage years even though they were still Christian, and I grew up in one of the few places on earth where it wasn't a social stigma to be non-religious. But I haven't reached this point by never believing or being subjected to religion very close up.

Guys, you both make great points and I agree with most.  Why are we arguing?  I think I was confused on beleifs and religions...  My mistake thinking you were knocking a faith, when really you may have been going after the church instead....  I was just saying lets not bash other peoples beleifs.  I agree, there is a lot of messed up stuff with organized faith.  I didn't want anyone reading this to feel uncomfortable. I think you two explained your points well and I agree.

I see nothing good that comes from religion, only bad. Fuck 'em all.

We aren't, you're just coming round to my way of thinking :)

But yes, I don't care about people's beliefs as long as it doesn't make them fly planes into buildings in my city, or tries to get science out of science classes in schools just as we're hitting a crucial period in history where we need to be at the forefront of science (new energy sources, global warming etc)

Also, if I wanted to talk about Axl, I'd go to the on-topic forums, but I don't want to  :hihi:

SG, TAP, this is nice.   :love:  SG is right, I really think we agree on 99% of this stuff.   :peace:

What the hell were we talking about again?   :hihi:   
 :beer:

 :love: :beer: Okay, love fest over now... ha

(http://abstrusegoose.com/strips/Veritas_Vos_Liberabit.PNG)

That is a good one.  I hate it when people knock on my door period to sell stuff. 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html

Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination

KANSAS CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist.

 Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.

He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.

Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.

In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.

"I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said.

Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.

 Two years ago on Thanksgiving Day, after refusing to pray at his table, Hall said he was told to go sit somewhere else. In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, "Do you believe in Jesus now?"

Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.

He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.

"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.

Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he's been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.

"Our Pentagon, our Pentacostalgon, is refusing to realize that when you put the uniform on, there's only one religious faith: patriotism," Weinstein said.

Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall's case -- citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.

"If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that's acceptable," said Carr. "And that's a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith."

 Weinstein said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.

Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Weinstein has a different interpretation.

"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army," he says.

But Carr said the military's position is clear.

"Proselytizing or advancing a religious conviction is not what the nation would have us do and it's not what the military does," Carr said.

The U.S. Justice Department is expected to respond to Hall's lawsuit this week. In the meantime, he continues to work in the military police unit at Fort Riley and plans to leave as soon as his tour of duty expires next year.

Exclusive: Director Larry Charles Gets Religulous


http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=49162

I heard Jesus is really angry about this movie, is there any truth to this?

Religion is not a bad thing, just the people (and  there are a lot of them) who twist its meaning to fit their agenda.

I hate living in the south. This movie isn't playing anywhere............


Fuck em

To the Torrents!

Finally just saw this, it was pretty awesome even though it's obviously biased.. it shows a lot about people who really don't think all that much.
highly recommended!!!!

He's a little too condescending at points, but it's very well done. I especially liked the closing argument.

Edit: The other point that was brought up, that I had posted years ago, was that the story of Jesus has already been told by a few different societies well before he came on to the scene.

The batshit crazy creationist museum that presented man and dinosaur living together was scary indeed. Stupid, stupid people.

I also really got a kick out of that priest at the Vatican. He was hilarious.

In the bonus footage he talked to this atheist guy who ironically part of a group who finds in 1973 out that man was created by aliens and he was sent to tell everyone.  that was kind of funny!  Intelligent design was one of the books up there.
the whole idea behind mormonism was also pretty out there.

the bonus footage is all good, especially when one dude communicates with his higher spirit on film. all the monologues on the dvd are great too!!!

Exactly the reason why I didn't like it... He tried really hard to make it look like he was actually searching for answers and trying to understand why some people feel the need to search for higher power,  but it became pretty clear that in most cases he tried way too hard to be funny and came out looking like a complete dick. I was pretty disappointed because I thought this could've made a great documentary. I do share some of the views that he had, but I just don't agree on the way he made the thing..

Only the big religions, which isn't actually real religions, meh :P

I think you have to go into it realizing that Bill is just kind of a dick. Then it doesn't bother you as much. Also keeping in mind that the guy is a comedian first, so he will always explore that angle before anything else (ie cheap laugh before "serious" documentary.)

I understand that... I just sort of wish he was good at that.. comedy. I don't know. I just didn't like the stand up bits all that much. I think religious nuts are usually funny enough as it is without someone trying to underline every little thing that's funny about the subject. But it might be more about me not liking Maher that much than anything else.

One of his points that he made near the end of the film was that all the normal, everyday people who are faithful to some sort of higher power only lend credibility to the religious nutcases and thereby empower them. I would totally agree with that sentiment.

But doesn't that apply to almost any issue?  Think about all the people acting on your behalf, whether you want them to or not.  The anti-smoking crusaders, for example.  They're the most unwilling to compromise group of nuts (besides the religious right) I've ever seen, yet every person who would be perfectly happy to have a few non-smoking bars/restaurants lends credibility.  Most people can accept choice, but the wingnuts co-opt them into the cause because of one partially shared sentiment. 

I like Bill - he reminds me of me  ;D Saw the movie recently, loved it.

You should congratulate yourself on your awesomeness. It feels great, trust me.

Don't worry, I'm way ahead of you.

Maybe the movie was biased and picked bad examples, but one person they interviewed was a US senator (Dem) who believes the rapture is imminent. When you scratch the surface and get them to say what they really think you either find religious people don't really believe any of it, and are just there for cultural/social reasons, or else they are nuts. There's not much of an in between.

I'm not gonna go too far with this because it will get me nowhere, and I'm smart enough to know that and see that I am outnumbered on this topic.  But, I do have to say that as a Christian, I think it is really hypocritical to so blindly judge Christians or religion if you are doing so because you don't think we have the right to try and tell people about our beliefs when you are doing exactly that.  I'm reading this, and feeling like I'm being attacked because of my beliefs, and that's just not okay.  I am a Christian, and I am proud of that, but the fact is I would never judge any group of people because of their beliefs because my God teaches me not to do that.  I know quite a few people that do not believe in God and have serious issues with organized religion, and I'll admit there are definite points of controversy to be found in the latter, but we have a mutual respect for one another because I don't judge them, and they seem to admire the fact that I do stand so strongly behind my faith.  I come from a family that has a colorful religious background, and I have learned acceptance through that along with my faith.  I don't like people banging on my door trying to preach to me either, so, before you decide that we are all idiots, think about what you are saying.  We really aren't all bad, and to think so is really the ultimate example of being close-minded.

There is nothing hypocritical about my opinion on Christianity.

My big question to Christians is how can you account for the strikingly similar accounts of God like sons whose stories mirrored that of Jesus centuries before he even came on the scene?

Christianity is actually a rip-off from pagan religions.

Putting humans above nature and beliving in a supernatural god, right?
God derives from norse, meaning good.

The good sun. :peace:

Guess some people are into the biblical philospohy, meh...void of many things, like sexuality and agriculture f.x.




But christianity is. Do this do that. No other religion. Kill the incircumsized. I think it's shallow and breeds shallow perspectives.

Not to the mention it's history...

Who gives a fuck about religion?

But christianity is. Do this do that. No other religion. Kill the incircumsized. I think it's shallow and breeds shallow perspectives.

Not to the mention it's history...


Wow... you really need to update your literature on what Christianity is about.  I am not shallow, nor am I uneducated, (as was stated in a different post).  I am not naive or deluded either.  I'm actually quite the opposite of all of those things, but you guys would never believe that because you have your view on what Christianity is, and nothing I say will change it.  I am obviously a lot more open-minded than a lot of people on here, as I have no problem accepting what you choose to believe, even though I may disagree.  My only real problem was with the generalizations and insults that have been splattered all over this thread, which in my opinion are totally ridiculous.

True Christianity is not bad.  The problem is that there are so many that claim the title of "Christian" and do not live it.  If all of those that call themselves Christian would actually live their lives the way that the Christian religion dictates, the world would be a much better place, and perhaps Christianity wouldn't have the reputation that it does.  I am not here to debate my beliefs, or to try and account for anything.  That's not why I responded.  Not that I can't; I just know that it's a waste of time.  Like I said before, it wouldn't matter what I said.  If you don't WANT to believe in God, even factual evidence couldn't make you, and I know that.  It's not something I will ever budge on; therefore, it would be an endless battle.  Besides, shoving my God down the throats of those that do not want to hear about it is not my idea of a good way to spread His message.  It's not what the scriptures say to do anyway.  I prefer to work at being an example of what Christianity is supposed to  be.  Hopefully, someone, somewhere will notice, and it may make a great change for their life.

I didn't claim you were, I was speaking about christianity, the religion. A lot of clever people are christians, I know : ok:




Hopefully more christians makes a pact with the devil, the serpent.

Satan is resistance, satan is freedom and the only true god worthy of worship in the hebrew mythology imo.

Every Christian claims they are a 'true' Christian for obvious reasons. From an outside view there is clearly no such thing since your guidebook was so poorly written.

Well, since you really don't know me, you have no way to tell for sure.  You can think what you want.  Like I said, I'm not about trying to convince people I'm right.  I don't live my life trying to "talk" about what kind of a person I am, and I have no desire to try to make you believe I am anything.  I just try to let my actions speak for themselves, and defend myself when I feel  the need.

I'm sorry that you feel the Bible was poorly written.  I, on the other hand, as not only a Christian, but a literature major and teacher, feel that it is quite sound!

I'm sure you are a good person,  but there are non-religious people who are good, and there are Christians who are not. So you'll have to be more specific if you are claiming your actions define you as a Christian.


Are you serious? If it was well written we wouldn't be having this conversation. Why are there 38,000 different denominations?

Because human beings are allowed to have their own interpretation.  I can believe mine is correct, and someone else can believe theirs is correct... that's what makes great literature.  (And yes, I do believe it is more than JUST another piece of literature, but that goes back to us humans making things what we want them to be, and I have a problem with that just like you do, which is why I said earlier that there are definite points of controversy to be found in organized religion.  We humans tend to mess everything up!)

Are you serious? If it was well written we wouldn't be having this conversation. Why are there 38,000 different denominations?
[/quote]

...and yes we would because people will always find something to disagree about! 

I'm going to come to Norway and hug a pagan. 

ok, but the starting point of this exchange was your claim that there is such a thing as a 'true' Christian suggesting that some interpretations are correct and some are not on an absolute scale.

I do believe that there are such things as true Christians.  I guess my point is that I have the right to feel that way without being called names or having my intelligence called into question, and I don't feel I should have to defend that right.  I was defending the Bible as great literature by saying that it's great because we all get to have our own interpretation.  I didn't say that I don't think mine is right!! 

My problem with the Bible is that it contradicts itself, also I like shell fish and from what I've read it's considered an abomination.

isn't it because it consists of many apostles versions and none of Jesus's?

What is a true Christian?

None of the gospels were written by apostles or even eyewitnesses or even people who lived at that time in that place. No serious bible scholar on any side of the argument disputes that.

Are you a literature teacher?

Not but my imaginary friend is so F U !!!!

Mine's a lawyer.

Mine may be both if I'm still on speaking terms with them....

I can see where you would interpret a lot of what the Bible says as contradiction.  I won't pretend to be expert in theology; in fact, I'm ashamed that I'm not better prepared.  I wish that I had a scripture to spit out in reply to everything stated, because I'm sure there is one, but then it would just be a matter of "why should we believe the scriptures?"  And that all goes back to faith, which, to me, is unexplainable.   I will offer you this, which is the only way I can think to explain:  the Bible is divided into the Old Testament and the New Testament.  The OT was before Christ.  Those were the rules that were given to people to follow by God at that time to achieve salvation.  This was before Jesus, and was meant to serve as a guide for those believing in God, and it is where the "food laws" you are talking about are found.  The NT was written after Jesus was sent and died, and it seems contradictory because suddenly the rules changed, and Jesus told us that, as Christians, all we had to do was accept in our hearts that this man was sent to die for us.  By believing that, and accepting Jesus as our saviour, we now had a new path to salvation.    The NT is the "guidebook" that was written for Christians.  The word Christian comes from "Christ", meaning that Christians are those that follow the words of the NT and accept Jesus Christ as their savior.  I can't explain why the rules changed except to say that God sent Christ as proof of His love, and after that the "old school" beliefs are believed to have been good rules to some degree, but not the path to salvation anymore.  I think that God knew when he would send Christ, but knew that He had to set forth some sort of rules for people to follow until the time came.  I hope that makes sense.

Well, I wish I could explain, but I don't want to go through it all.  Ultimately, what it means to be a true Christian, to me, is that you have read the New Testament, and you believe that Jesus was sent to die for our sins.  He was sent by God to prove to the world that He was real, and as a Christian, you have faith in that.

Of course, there are the teachings of Jesus which we should all follow, but I realize that you don't have to be a Christian to live by a basic moral code.  Being a Christian does not automatically make people good, just as not being one does not automatically make people bad.  A "true Christian" realizes, however, that one day, even if we have accepted Jesus into our hearts, we will have to face our God and be accountable for all we have done.  That's where I think the problems arise.  So many people know that the path to salvation, (in Christianity), comes from the acceptance of Christ, so they think that by doing that, they have it covered, and live their lives however they want never thinking about what it will be like to answer for all that they do.  Those people, in my mind, are not living the life of a true Christian.

Dude, I realize that Christianity sets a lot of people off, and I understand.  It makes me mad, too.  It seems like Christians look down on everyone that does not believe what they do, and I'm sure that some do.  All I can do is offer my testimony and tell you that, I mess up like everyone else does.  I try so hard, and still do the WRONG thing.  I am saved according to my beliefs, but I, like most, could still use a lot of work.  I do work very hard to do what I believe is right, and I do pray.  I can tell you that when people are listening to praise songs and raising their hands, a lot of that is fake, but just as much is not.  It's the same feeling that ya get when you're listening to GnR, and you just lose yourself in it.  I've felt it, and it's great.  I have learned a lot through my faith... like acceptance, which I talked about before.  There was a time in my life when I would have said some pretty harsh things about certain subjects, and I was VERY consertative on a lot of issues, but after studying the Bible as an adult, I have found that God does not want that from me, (it's just not my place), and I work very hard to be totally accepting of others.   Bottom line here, though, is I will continue to stand by beliefs, just as you will stand by yours, and I believe we both the right to do so!

A lot of the bible is contradiction, it has nothing to do with interpretation - there are many passages which explicitly contradict other passages. And that's within in the gospels if you are trying for an OT/NT cop out.

I'm pretty sure most Christians believe that including the whackjobs. It doesn't really give us much to go on.

What if you can't read? 

I'm not looking for a cop out of any kind.  Man, why can't you take I'm saying for what it is?  I said that I don't know it all, and I'm explaining to the best of my abilities!  I DON'T KNOW!  MAYBE EVERYONE THAT EATS SHELLFISH IS REALLY IN TROUBLE!  I don't, so I'm good.  I realize that I am doing my religion a great injustice by not having all of the information to back up what I am saying.  This is why I didn't want to get so deep into this.  My whole problem was not with anyone not believing what I do; it was with the name calling and generalizations.

See?  I'm not gonna win no matter what I say.  This is a pointless discussion, like I said before.  We both have the rights to believe what we choose, and it won't matter what I offer up as my point of view on the whole thing.  You won't accept it.  All I ask is that you accept my right to believe it.

See now, I just find that downright patronizing.

Someone just had their reading skills blindly judged.

You don't read or write very well for a literature teacher. This thread has never been about taking away your right to believe what you choose, where did you get that from? Your argument/complaint was that people were somehow blindly judging you as a person because they/we didn't know what a true Christian was, yet you seem unable to explain what one is either.

It really wasn't meant to be patronizing.  It was meant to say that I really do understand.  Not because I think I'm smart or anything else... just because I do really understand.  It confuses me too, and I've never tried to act like it doesn't.  Man, ya'll take things so personally.

Man, what is your problem?  My complaint was this:  I'm reading this, and feeling like I'm being attacked because of my beliefs, and that's just not okay.   That is directly quoted from my original post.  I felt like I was being attacked and blindy judged.  I never said it was because they/you didn't know what a true Christian was.  You are the one that started asking questions, that I originally said I did not want to get into, and I tried to do my best to explain.  I've been nothing but straighforward with you and tried to do my best to understand every side of this, and you will not even make the attempt.

That's not troublesome for you? :P




Just be cold, attack on faith is not personal attacks. :peace:

So, if I said that anyone that doesn't believe the way I do is an f'n dumba** and all the other things that have been said in this thread, no one would be offended?  The difference is I would never do that.  I would NEVER say such rude things to someone.  It does feel like a personal attack, even if it's not meant to be.   The main post that set me off was the one that said something to effect of:  "My opinion is all Christians are ???  (can't remember now).  F 'em all."  Something  like that.

Irony alert.

I wouldn't, mainly because your argument would carry no weight.

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8526/christianoppressionpieej4.png)

Fine, man.  I never wanted to argue.  You can feel better about yourself knowing that I want nothing more to do with this if that's what it takes.  You can blame whatever you want for my not wanting to continue with this, but the truth is it has turned out to be a completely pointless discussion, just like I knew it would if we went down this path.  If you would like to believe you have won something, feel free.  I'm so sorry that I tried to have a rational conversation defending myself and people like me.  Talk about how I only quit talking to you because I can't defend myself and whatever, but honestly, I just know how endless this is going to be.  I've said already, I don't think I should have to defend myself, so I will stop trying.  Good-bye, and God bless, and God help you if I AM right!

Uh, I was meaning having another person suffer and die for your "sins", not wether it's true or not. :P

Hyper sensitive, coiled into a victim role, totally unaware of the ironic nature of your posts, and effin patronizing.

why do people always seek for god?

Check out the second chapter of Freud's Civilization and Its Discontents

One of his theories I remember off the top of my head is that people have a psychological disposition to desiring a permanent figure of parental authority who is constantly keeping their life and the decisions that naturally arise while living it in check.

sounds very reasonable.  we are lonely existence.

That's actually another one of Freud's theories.

Life is so depressing and lonely that the existence of an entity such as God is the only thing which could concievably make us feel whole.

Gawd comes in handy when praying before an important football game, or the slaughter of hundreds of thousands in Darfur.

God= good and the only true gods are those in nature and man.

All living things seek to become the highest of it's potential, it's the force of life and the will of nature.

I'm not sure if you know nature and art, norway.

From an agnostic point of view, or a part Venusians, every religion is an interpretation of the same thing ie god/goddesses/gods.


as they say Danger past, god forgotten. :yes:

Here's an interesting (IMO) take by one of my favourite writers. It's a little heavy going, but worth the time to read it I think:

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/2004_10_29_religion.htm

and entirely predictable.

The whole idea is whacky from start to finish if you analyze it objectively, most people don't though.

My dog is trained to subdue and then dry hump LDS missionaries in the face when they visit my home.

Why do the agnostics get pink for a color..I don't think that's fair.

Because they are wishy washy fence sitters.

Thanks for clearing that up.  Some think the Jews should be green here....just sayin... :nervous:

it looks like Buddhists are a proxy wall between Jews and Muslims.

A lot of people misrepresent and hide behind religion to preach their own hate to the world. They use it as a negative platform, usually publicly, which reflects poorly overall. The few extremists shouldn't represent all religious or spiritual people.

I think most people's spirituality/religion is determined by their personality/behaviour rather than vice versa. That's where the whole true Christian thing comes from, it's an escape from being grouped together with people you don't want to be grouped with for reasons having nothing really to do with religion.

The Crusades in the past, the stretched Jihads etc.. :no: the abuse of religion.


interesting read.

but I think the pie graph is bs.

It represents US demographics, or did you mean in the sense that pie charts can't talk?

I mean isn't the source those religious organizations? churches
some people can be counted in by two different groups or more.

I don't know, but you can get Halal chinese food around here.

TAP you son of a bitch! Halal Meat is good...Like SK#1-Beef Hot Dawgs in stands throughout NYC unless the Sabrett enforcers are out turning over carts again.

Pie graphs are neither tasty or factually correct.

on mars? I thought you only have chocolate...

I'm an astronaut - I travel a lot.

you know we have quite a few Martians as well as astronauts on the board.  ;)