Zodiac Signs

[Izzy]

and still noone offers a decent argument for the existence of astrology

who decided which date is associated with certain actions and emotions?
if an astrology chart is unique then there would be trillions upon trillians of combinations...where do these combinations derive from? who said what was what? so many different variables it would be impossible to compile all the associations...

i was looking at a horoscope of mine for today...and i was thinking it could easily apply to hitler too...so generic...i cant believe that people believe in this

Another excellent post.

To those who believe this superstition,

Who come up with all this stuff and why is he/she accepted to know the 'truth'?

Maybe they made a mistake? Maybe they were high.....or maybe they were an opportunist, and realised they could make lots of money from this?

[Jessica]

 Questions - Answers
Question: How does astrology work?

Answer: There are many theories but no proofs. The fact is that we do not know how astrology works.

Question: If you don't know how astrology works, then doesn't that prove that astrology is not scientific. Science is based on theories, right?

Answer: Wrong! Science is based on observation. More specifically, science is based on the scientific method. Theories are extremely important in science because theories help the scientist make predictions of how things will behave in a new context. Without theories, science would proceed at an incredibly slow pace. But one can make clear, indisputable observations without any theory at all. For example, I can predict that any heavy object dropped from a table will fall to the ground. The fact that heavy objects fall to the ground was true before Newton discovered the laws of gravity. The laws of gravity, however, expand our understanding of how gravity works and allow us to predict the movement of celestial objects and of astronauts in space, for example. Theories enable us to synthesize seemingy unrelated facts into a coherent paradigm, and enable us to make other predictions and discoveries. Theories are critically important, but a theory can change without affecting the validity of an observation. Before Sir Isaac Newton discovered the laws of gravity, one could still predict that an apple will fall out of a tree and hit the ground rather than fly out into space, and you do not need to master physics to know that apples fall to the ground.

Question: But astrology just doesn't make any common sense at all. There is no magnetic or gravitational force or any other explanation for why planets should affect humans, and the theories of astrology just don't make common sense, they seem more superstitious. How can astrology be considered a science?

Answer: Lots of theories in physics don't make common sense either. Albert Einstein and other 20th century physicists have proposed all kinds of absurd and seemingly ridiculous ideas such as space is curved (so therefore the fastest way to get to distant galaxies is a curved path rather than a straight line!), that time is really a fourth dimension, and not separate from space, that looking at something alters its position, that subatomic particles move so fast that time is experienced differently for these particles; time can speed up or slow down as the speed of an object changes! Now these ideas don't make common sense, and sound like the stuff of science fiction, but they are taken seriously by physicists not as science fiction but as valid and serious scientific theories. In short, it is not necessary for an idea to make common sense to be scientifically sound. A theory only needs to fit the data, that's all.

Question: But what data do you have in astrology? Hasn't astrology been disproven?

Answer: Many people have conducted very impressive research studies in astrology. Here are the names of a few of these people: John Nelson, Mark Urban-Lurraine, Ann Parker, Ray Merriman, Theordor Landschedit, and John Addey. There are many others. The research results are very impressive. Click here to read a very recent, very impressive research study conducted by David Cochrane. In order for these studies to be considered scientifically valid, they must however be reviewed by experts in the scientific method, and be published in an accepted scientific journal. This level of research requires huge amounts of time and typically a great deal of money as well. Astrology currently is caught in a chicken-and-egg situation: the research requires great amounts of time and money, and the interest of a prestigious scientific journal in publishing the research, but astrology is still foreign to our college and universities, and they are unwilling to invest the resources required to validate the studies. No, astrology has not been disproven. The scientific method is one of the great keys to the great advancements of our modern times, and the scientific method should be adhered to and respected. Ironically, astrologers are sometimes attacked by scientists for promoting pseudo-science and superstition, and I have heard scientists state that astrology has been disproven, a statement which is untrue and unscientific! I do agree that the silly Sun Sign column in the newspaper is absurd, and the image of astrology that much of popular astrology conveys to people is simple-minded at best, and often completely ridiculous. Until articles are published in respected journals that validate or invalidate astrological principles, the question of astrology's status as a science is undetermined, but I think that anyone who reads the work of serious researchers such as those listed above will be impressed by the research done and feel as I do: eventually thorough research will be done and will demonstrate that there is validity to astrology.

Question: So what is astrology? Is it more than Sun signs?

Answer: In the latter half of the 20th century astrologers have discovered complex interactions among the planets, which have developed new schools of astrology, two of which are known as the theories of harmonic astrology and cosmobiology. These new approaches to astrological interpretation are extremely cumbersome without the calculating power of a computer. Even older analytical procedures used in astrology require a great deal of computation. With the advent of the home computer astrology is now liberated from the restrictions of hand-held calculators and books of tables, and serious astrological work is now available to everyone. In short, the rules for astrological analysis are very complex and intricate, and in order to use newly discovered techniques it is, practically speaking, necessary to use computer software to perform these calculations.

We are dedicated to developing the tools (that is, computer software) that make real astrology, the sophisticated analytical techniques that really work, possible. The result of this work is the Kepler program, which we continue to work very hard on improving, refining, and expanding. Along with all of the technical issues, we continue to add features that make the program entertaining and interesting, such as many hundreds of original graphic pictures, a "Live Mini Reading", a part of the program where the interpretation is spoken as you watch graphic illustrations on the computer monitor, the "AstroEncyclopedia" which contains a huge reference work of information, and "Avalon College" which teaches you astrology, so if you aren't an advanced student or expert astrologer, you can learn right within the Kepler program. The Live Mini Reading, AstroEncyclopedia, and Avalon College are all part of the Kepler program. We use very accurate planetary routines to ensure that the chart calculations are accurate, and we supply a complete atlas of cities, time zone, and daylight savings time information within the Kepler so that charts are calculated accurately; without all of these components, the calculations will simply not be consistently and reliably accurate.

Question: I am new to astrology and I am skeptical, but let's suppose that astrology does have some validity. So what? What can I do with it? Is it useful to me?

Answer: Astrology is useful to nearly everyone. The Kepler program comes with several interpretive reports, which are known as the Cosmo Natal Report, Cosmo Compatibility Report, Cosmo Forecast Report, the Major Life Theme Report, the Live Mini Reading, and the Profile Report. There are also many additional interpretive report options which can be purchased, but even with the interpretive reports that are included with the Kepler program, you can begin to see the pattern of a person's life, the inner drive and meaning behind their behavior, and you can really appreciate and respect, not just intellectually understand, people in a way that is difficult to achieve with other tools.

People use astrology in many different ways, from investing in the stock market, making business decisions, to analyzing political situations and social movements. The applications of astrology are almost endless. There are many theories and approaches to astrology, and very little hard and fast scientifically proven facts, but a new foundation for astrology is being built, and there are people using astrology succesfully in very concrete areas, such as investing and finance - that is certainly an area where you can pay dearly for making a mistake!

Keep in mind also that a great deal of modern psychology has not been proven yet. For example, many psychologists emphasize the importance of self-esteem in people's lives, and the importance of developing self-esteem in children. This is a concept that is extremely difficult to prove scientifically, but for people that work with people and analyze situations carefully, the importance of self-esteem is obvious. Psychological theories, such as repression, projection, or displacement or also difficult to prove scientifically, but to a person trained in psychology often easy to identify, and very useful to better understanding an individual. Astrology currently does not have the support and endorsement of universities and research journals, and there are many very tricky and difficult problems that one encounters in attempting to scientifically test astrological theories, but it can be done, it has been done already to a small degree, and the development of good software tools and the dedication and interest of many talented people in the field of astrology is now giving a re-birth to what may appear to be an ancient superstition which is gasping on its last breath, but is now proving to be one of the great technological wonders of the future.

[Izzy]

Congratulations - u can copy stuff from a web site. please note to fit the word limit i have had to cut the quotes, its not an effort to remove points i can't counter

Questions - Answers
Question: How does astrology work?

Answer: There are many theories but no proofs. The fact is that we do not know how astrology works.

 

U don't know how it works - yet still claim it does? If u don't know it it works how do u know when its working properly, or not at all?

Question: If you don't know how astrology works, then doesn't that prove that astrology is not scientific. Science is based on theories, right?

Answer: Wrong! Science is based on observation. More specifically, science is based on the scientific method. Before Sir Isaac Newton discovered the laws of gravity, one could still predict that an apple will fall out of a tree and hit the ground rather than fly out into space, and you do not need to master physics to know that apples fall to the ground.

What a curious argument! Science is also based on experimentation that can be repeated.

It's just a 'clever' way of saying 'you can't disprove it'. The absence of an argument not an argument itself.

By the logic of that argument every religion can also exist, in fact by that argument anything and everything can exist and is simply waiting for a supporting theory!

Because there is no theory doesn't preclude its existence? True, gravity was just waiting to be discovered - but that's the key point, it existed and was waiting to be explained coherantly. The Zodiac fits into no scientific framework - there is no theory because there is nothing to discover.

How does the zodiac fit in with all the scientific laws that have been established and proven and leave no room for the zodiac- like the theory of relativity - do u honestly believe all these physists etc are wrong? The arrogance! How dare u claim without even a formal background in the sciences the corner stones of science to be false!

Stephen Hawking and Eistein never found a basis for this - but you would claim to posses a greater knowledge of the universe?!?!

The curious point about observations - have u actually observed the zodiac in effect? If so then u can surely answer the first point about how it works?

Question: But astrology just doesn't make any common sense at all. There is no magnetic or gravitational force or any other explanation for why planets should affect humans, and the theories of astrology just don't make common sense, they seem more superstitious. How can astrology be considered a science?

Answer: Lots of theories in physics don't make common sense either.

Er...it makes perfect sense to me. What's more it has been tested by everyone under the sun and they find the positions fully inline with the evidence. Why wouldn't it make sense?

A theory only needs to fit the data, that's all.

Hence why there is no theory for the zodiac - we have no data, no data because there is no evidence, no evidence beause no one has ever shown the zodiac to have any effect...

Question: But what data do you have in astrology? Hasn't astrology been disproven?
The research results are very impressive.

I bet they are!

In Nazi Germany doctors ''proved'' a Jewish race. Its quite remarkable what biases research can achieve!

In order for these studies to be considered scientifically valid, they must however be reviewed by experts in the scientific method, and be published in an accepted scientific journal. This level of research requires huge amounts of time and typically a great deal of money as well. Astrology currently is caught in a chicken-and-egg situation: the research requires great amounts of time and money, and the interest of a prestigious scientific journal in publishing the research, but astrology is still foreign to our college and universities, and they are unwilling to invest the resources required to validate the studies. No, astrology has not been disproven

  The old argument by default again - by that logic i can claim to be the real Izzy Stradlin', it can't be disproved can it? Prove i am not Izzy writing from a computer in England. U can't

Doesn't mean i am Izzy though

U understand?

We can't prove it because we haven't got the money! Fantastic, i love that one. Sounds like an excuse to me ''the man's keeping us down!'

Ever thought why they might be unable to get funding?

 

How much money do u think Einstein needed for the theory of relativity? How many computers did he need? None. They didn't exist.

Question: So what is astrology? Is it more than Sun signs?
 We use very accurate planetary routines to ensure that the chart calculations are accurate, and we supply a complete atlas of cities, time zone, and daylight savings time information within the Kepler so that charts are calculated accurately; without all of these components, the calculations will simply not be consistently and reliably accurate.

Fantastic, without any idea of how it could concievably work they plan to chart it and control it, well good luck with that!

Question: I am new to astrology and I am skeptical, but let's suppose that astrology does have some validity. So what? What can I do with it? Is it useful to me?

Answer: Astrology is useful to nearly everyone. you can begin to see the pattern of a person's life, the inner drive and meaning behind their behavior, and you can really appreciate and respect, not just intellectually understand, people in a way that is difficult to achieve with other tools.

I think you'll find a person's behaviour is driven by their genes and environment - the idea some supernatural force controls your behaviour is laughable. By that logic my argument against the zodiac would be controlled....by the zodiac

How much control does it have? Why can two people with the same 'prediction' behave differently?

People use astrology in many different ways, from investing in the stock market, making business decisions, to analyzing political situations and social movements.

 

They ''achieved'' because of their star sign - as opposed to ability, understanding and opportunism. Of course

Keep in mind also that a great deal of modern psychology has not been proven yet.

Indeed - and large amounts of that is grossly unsound as well, and is viewed as such

 

For example, many psychologists emphasize the importance of self-esteem in people's lives, and the importance of developing self-esteem in children. This is a concept that is extremely difficult to prove scientifically, but for people that work with people and analyze situations carefully, the importance of self-esteem is obvious.

Something has been observed and a satisfactory explanation is under formulation - what has been observed in the zodiac?

Psychological theories, such as repression, projection, or displacement or also difficult to prove scientifically, but to a person trained in psychology often easy to identify,

Especially if the psychologist is looking for it By ignoring what disagrees u'll be amazed how often things agree with your perception.

Many of these 'syndromes' come about because of selective use of the evidence - Attention Hyperactivity disoder (AHAD) is a case in point

 

Astrology currently does not have the support and endorsement of universities and research journals, and there are many very tricky and difficult problems that one encounters in attempting to scientifically test astrological theories,

I'd say so - proving something that doesn't exist is a challenge and a half.

Ever thought why the universities might not be intrested in this?

Two reasons possible reaons:
 
one: they are evil people seeking to maintain a status quo they benefit from

two: they represent the finest minds on earth and realise this is rubbish

If u choose the first you should seek help, that kind of paranoia is dangerous, do u also believe secret organisations run the world and the Government covered up aliens at Roswell?

but it can be done, it has been done already to a small degree, and the development of good software tools and the dedication and interest of many talented people in the field of astrology is now giving a re-birth to what may appear to be an ancient superstition which is gasping on its last breath, but is now proving to be one of the great technological wonders of the future.

This article is truly scary. I have read similiar justifications for those new age cults where they all kill themselves. By suspending commonsense it is amazing how far you can go.

Proving a technological wonder? How is it proving? Please show this 'proof'

That article is absurd - neatly side stepping the fact they have no evidence at all.

Ask yourself this: if evidence is not needed to support a viewpoint, what would be fundamentally wrong with a belief the internet is actually a living being? Or that trees eat people?

There is nothing that supports the zodiac anywhere - so how can it be true? Because scientists are incompetant?

A position can only be accepted when there is evidence that supports it - if u take away the need for evidence anything goes.

Please don't reply by saying the evidence does exist it just hasn't been found yet - that is NOT an argument. And even if it is accepted as an argument it can be used for anything.

[Jessica]

Izzy, although you always want to be right about everything, the reason i posted this was because i thought it would be a good read.

Contrary to you, i don't try to impose my view on others. I have my own beliefs and so do you.

[Axls Locomotive]

excellent post izzy, it said just about everything i wanted to say and much more

there is no evidence to support the validity of astrology...that definition of science is correct but the fact is that scientific experiments are repeatable again and again is the important step...there has been no article in any magazine which verifies that astrology produces repeatable results...

not to mention that humans tend not to know exactly how they feel which can make the results even more skewed towards astrology's favour as people seek to find something to attach themselves to...its all in the mind, its psychological

where did astrology and all the other foretelling practices come from? it would be good to see if anyone knows the answer...tarot for instance used to be a card game

here is a link you may be interested in...pseudoscience...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience
imo astrology et al fall into this category...

[Mr. Dick Purple]

Izzy, although you always want to be right about everything, the reason i posted this was because i thought it would be a good read.

Contrary to you, i don't try to impose my view on others. I have my own beliefs and so do you.

Agree With You, even though I dont believe in astrology and stuff but I dont try to obligate people to think what I think, I guess this topic is more for opinions than for saying whats right or wrong.

Because there is no theory doesn't preclude its existence? True, gravity was just waiting to be discovered - but that's the key point, it existed and was waiting to be explained coherantly. The Zodiac fits into no scientific framework - there is no theory because there is nothing to discover.

As I said before I dont believe in zodiac either remember I was bored and a friend told me something about astrology, but the paragraph you just post doesn't mean anything at all, I mean the things to be discovered are supossed to be waiting, how can anyone expect that something that hasn't be discovered yet can be discovered later If it's not supposed to exits just an hypothesis?. Once again my opinion

[Gunnerguy]

feck it I realise that astrology is about as accurate as US intelligence on Iraqi WMDs, but people (i. e. women  ) have every right to believe in it if they want. After all their not hurting anybody right? besides if u know some sexy chick is into astrology you can use it to your advantage with lines like "Wanna bring Uranus back to my place?"  ..... take that one home with ya

[*Izzy*]

feck it I realise that astrology is about as accurate as US intelligence on Iraqi WMDs, but people (i. e. women ) have every right to believe in it if they want. After all their not hurting anybody right? besides if u know some sexy chick is into astrology you can use it to your advantage with lines like "Wanna bring Uranus back to my place?" ..... take that one home with ya

That was priceless?

  Izzy?

[Gunnerguy]

I agree with Izzy 100%...

Thanks

ps. great avatar?

excellent post izzy, it said just about everything i wanted to say and much more?

Another excellent post.? ?

errum whats the story ladies?
If I didn't agree with ye about the whole astrology thing ye would be getting a mighty slagging.
I better remember to keep my arse to the wall in this place

[ttfan50]

Mine is rarely ever close to being right.

[Izzy]

errum whats the story ladies?
If I didn't agree with ye about the whole astrology thing ye would be getting a mighty slagging.
I better remember to keep my arse to the wall in this place

Changing someone else's post could be viewed as libel.....

and look - i can do it too

I love men! I come to the board to get attention

Caesar, why did u write those things?

C'mon, if u wish to be ''funny'' try harder

[Izzy]

Izzy, although you always want to be right about everything,

 

You DON'T want to be right all the time? Ur happy being wrong?

Obviously i want to be right

the reason i posted this was because i thought it would be a good read.

And not to try and argue all my points? That was just a amazing consequence?

Contrary to you, i don't try to impose my view on others.?

You claim the Zodiac is right - by definition that is a view and by addressing it to me you are trying to influence my opinion....

I have my own beliefs and so do you.

Indeed, but not all views can be just accepted as an individual's right - people out there advocate suicide bombing and worse, there comes a point when a dangerously wrong view must be addressed.

I don't want to live in a world where any one can say any old rubbish and not be held to account - that's a dangerous society, i think rational people will agree.

[Izzy]

As I said before I dont believe in zodiac either remember I was bored and a friend told me something about astrology, but the paragraph you just post doesn't mean anything at all, I mean the things to be discovered are supossed to be waiting, how can anyone expect that something that hasn't be discovered yet can be discovered later If it's not supposed to exits just an hypothesis?. Once again my opinion

People see evidence and seek to account for it, apples fall to the gorund someone asks, 'why?'

From the evidence - the falling applies - comes a theory to explain

The evidence comes FIRST. Without evidence many things will never be discovered, we may never know how the universe was created, or why or when it will end, or even if it will.

With the Zodiac there is nothing to explain - no evidence hence no theory, and a theory without evidence is meaningless

A theory or hypothesis is only an attempt to explain something, but what is there to explain in the Zodiac as there is nothing to indicate it exists?

I hope i answered your point, if if i've totally missed your point just fire it my way again and i'll have another go

[*Izzy*]

You claim the Zodiac is right - by definition that is a view and by addressing it to me you are trying to influence my opinion....

Get over yourself, no one is trying to infleunce your opinion

  Izzy?

[Izzy]

You claim the Zodiac is right - by definition that is a view and by addressing it to me you are trying to influence my opinion....

Get over yourself, no one is trying to infleunce your opinion

  Izzy?

 

Any post addressed to someone that offers a view different to the recipients own is trying to influence them, that's the way language works. If your not trying to influence someone u say nothing. How can someone say 'your wrong' without implying that the recipient should alter their position? How can that not be an attempt to influence? I don't think anthing i have said is really that profound to cause confusion.

Why do people feel the need to post meaningless replies? Wannabe-izzy you have proved you don't understand what we are talking about, so why don't u just stay away?

[Axls Locomotive]

errum whats the story ladies?
If I didn't agree with ye about the whole astrology thing ye would be getting a mighty slagging.
I better remember to keep my arse to the wall in this place

awwww come on dude, dont be a prude, there is always space for one more 

[Axls Locomotive]

You claim the Zodiac is right - by definition that is a view and by addressing it to me you are trying to influence my opinion....

Get over yourself, no one is trying to infleunce your opinion

  Izzy 

funny, that by saying what you just said you are trying to get izzy to stop believing that he is being influenced...therefore he is being influenced...geddit?

[Jessica]

You claim the Zodiac is right - by definition that is a view and by addressing it to me you are trying to influence my opinion....

Get over yourself, no one is trying to infleunce your opinion

  Izzy 

 

Any post addressed to someone that offers a view different to the recipients own is trying to influence them, that's the way language works. If your not trying to influence someone u say nothing. How can someone say 'your wrong' without implying that the recipient should alter their position? How can that not be an attempt to influence? I don't think anthing i have said is really that profound to cause confusion.

Why do people feel the need to post meaningless replies? Wannabe-izzy you have proved you don't understand what we are talking about, so why don't u just stay away?

Funny, you bear one of my greatest flaws or what used to be :

you think you are so godam intelligent !

And your ego is as large as a field of potato !

You must be so insecure to try and crush people's opinions like this !

O P I N I O N

Like sharing an info and not necessarily trying to influence the other but wanting to learn about his/her view on a given subject ?

[Axls Locomotive]

Funny, you bear one of my greatest flaws or what used to be :

you think you are so godam intelligent !

And your ego is as large as a field of potato !

You must be so insecure to try and crush people's opinions like this !

O P I N I O N

Like sharing an info and not necessarily trying to influence the other but wanting to learn about his/her view on a given subject ?

opinions and arguments need facts to support them...you have not given any facts or theories to support your arguments, all "facts" you have given have been easily disproved...no facts, no proof, i think eskimos live on pluto without breathing masks, i have nothing to verify that this is true, although i have seen little white specs of dust in the planets atmosphere so clearly it must be true...astrology is a false science

[2NaFish]

opinions and beliefs are not sacred.