"Estranged" video voted as one of worst ever by yahoo music blogs

[Bridge]

I agree the video is extravagant and doesn't match the song much, but come on, there are much worse videos than this....


http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/videogaga/64353/real-turkeys-the-worst-videos-of-all-time/

GUNS N' ROSES - "ESTRANGED"
When GNR first hit MTV in 1987, they were the antithesis of big-haired bubbleglam bands like Poison, Europe, and the aforementioned Warrant. But their sound soon bloated along with their egos, and by the time they released the bombastic and self-indulgent Use Your Illusion two-volume set, they'd become the polar opposite of the lean, mean, rock 'n' roll machine they once were. Their cast-of-thousands "November Rain" video, with its Stephanie Seymour wedding scene and jillion-piece orchestra, or "Don't Cry," with its pointless cliff-jumping car stunts and unexplained Shannon Hoon cameo, were OTT enough. But "Estranged" was their real big-budget shark-jumper, as it came complete with oil tankers and dolphins. Yes, dolphins. It also featured men in white coats coming to cart Axl Rose away to the funny-farm. Well, at least that one part of the "Estranged" video was realistic: .

[metallex78]

I agree the video is extravagant and doesn't match the song much, but come on, there are much worse videos than this....


http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/videogaga/64353/real-turkeys-the-worst-videos-of-all-time/

GUNS N' ROSES - "ESTRANGED"
When GNR first hit MTV in 1987, they were the antithesis of big-haired bubbleglam bands like Poison, Europe, and the aforementioned Warrant. But their sound soon bloated along with their egos, and by the time they released the bombastic and self-indulgent Use Your Illusion two-volume set, they'd become the polar opposite of the lean, mean, rock 'n' roll machine they once were. Their cast-of-thousands "November Rain" video, with its Stephanie Seymour wedding scene and jillion-piece orchestra, or "Don't Cry," with its pointless cliff-jumping car stunts and unexplained Shannon Hoon cameo, were OTT enough. But "Estranged" was their real big-budget shark-jumper, as it came complete with oil tankers and dolphins. Yes, dolphins. It also featured men in white coats coming to cart Axl Rose away to the funny-farm. Well, at least that one part of the "Estranged" video was realistic: .

What's so unexplained about that?
Nice of them to ignore the fact that Shannon actually sang on the studio version of the fucking song, which was probably why he's in the video.

[One.In.A.Million]

Well, how stupid people can sometimes be is beyond me. I'm glad I'm part of a fan community that appreciates true music and see's it as an artform, rather than the crap of today.

Estranged is my favourite Guns N' Roses song, because of it's meaning and message. And in regards to the video, I would say it's the best video ever, down to the visual spectacle and cryptic messages displayed. I don't care what yahoo's blogs say, I can make my own judgement, and Estranged is a diamond compared to all of the others. 

We gunners know the truth, leave the media to worry about what a C-List celebrity is wearing. 

[Voodoochild]

The comment about Shanon Hoon just shows how idiotic and ignorant the author is.

IMO, the Estranged video kinda complements the song's meaning. And its a 90's thing, those big budget videos with somewhat cheesy stories like the Aerosmith and Bon Jovi ones. And Estranged is a lot deeper than that.

[rebelhipi]

absolutly agree with one in a million
its my favorite song and video in the world never seen a video that has so many sides/messages/things to watch  and the guts to make a 10 minute high budget video

[rabia]

I think its just become the trend among mindless "critics" to diss the UYI era as "bloated" and "self-indulgent". These people are usually so poorly informed that they cant understand the progression in different eras of GNR and see growth and change as some kind of cataclysmic event.

Did GNR sign a contract with anybody saying the band will never make big videos, use orchestras etc? Who died and made these things unholy for a rock band? Who decided that "lean, mean rock n roll" is a strait-jacket GNR can never get out of?

I've seen critics remark sardonically that the word repeated most often on Chinese Democracy is I. Its ridiculous that anybody would find it outrageous that CD songs are highly personal expressions when its an absolutely consistent trend with Axl as a lyric-writer. AFD and UYI lyrics are mostly about his experiences, feelings and observations too. If self-expression is "self-indulgence" to some people then too bad for them - they're missing the universal messages embedded in these songs.

[axlpwns]

Well, how stupid people can sometimes be is beyond me. I'm glad I'm part of a fan community that appreciates true music and see's it as an artform, rather than the crap of today.

Estranged is my favourite Guns N' Roses song, because of it's meaning and message. And in regards to the video, I would say it's the best video ever, down to the visual spectacle and cryptic messages displayed. I don't care what yahoo's blogs say, I can make my own judgement, and Estranged is a diamond compared to all of the others. 

We gunners know the truth, leave the media to worry about what a C-List celebrity is wearing. 

definitely agreed estranged is a great song and i love the video fuck yahoo. Yahoo also blamed the whole activision lawsuit on axl because he didn't like slash yahoo can fuck off.

[Bridge]

I think its just become the trend among mindless "critics" to diss the UYI era as "bloated" and "self-indulgent".

I'm gonna have to play devil's advocate on that one.  The UYI videos were gaudy and grossly overproduced.  I will disagree that the "Estranged" video is one of the worst videos ever, but I do agree that -- like the videos for "Don't Cry" and "November Rain" -- "Estranged" went way overboard.  The song was a simple song about dealing with unrequited love, but the video involved millions dollars and weeks to film.  For fuck's sake, Slash even had a guitar stunt double!  So I'll agree with the "bloated" and "overindulgent" criticisms.  They had tons of money, so they spent it.  And remember that the yahoo article didn't criticize GNR's music, just the overelaborate videos.

[28andoldatheart]

I've always loved Estranged and I love the video too.

[rebelhipi]

I think its just become the trend among mindless "critics" to diss the UYI era as "bloated" and "self-indulgent".

So I'll agree with the "bloated" and "overindulgent" criticisms.  They had tons of money, so they spent it.

i actually love it that way i know its a bit dumb but still its rock n?roll

[One.In.A.Million]

I think its just become the trend among mindless "critics" to diss the UYI era as "bloated" and "self-indulgent".

So I'll agree with the "bloated" and "overindulgent" criticisms.  They had tons of money, so they spent it.

i actually love it that way i know its a bit dumb but still its rock n?roll

I don't view anything about GN'R from 91-93 bloated at all. I see it as a band progressing and being a cut above all of the rest, and the trilogy music videos are a good example of this.

[Bridge]

I don't view anything about GN'R from 91-93 bloated at all. I see it as a band progressing and being a cut above all of the rest, and the trilogy music videos are a good example of this.

Yeah, they're "good examples" of being a "cut above all the rest" in terms of overindulgence.  As that article pointed out, the video for "Don't Cry" featured huge car crash stunts.  What the hell did that have to do with that song?

As for "Estranged", we had tankers, wave machines, dolphins, stuntmen doubling for band members ... gimme a break.  Just because they spent more money on videos than other bands, doesn't make the videos better.  Personally, I wouldn't have such a problem with those videos if they actually spent the money wisely and stuck to expressing the song.  If you'd never heard those three songs, the damn videos would make you wonder what the hell they were about.

They also don't know their roman numerals... calling "Estranged" Part IV of the trilogy.

[Genesis]

Some people would say the NR video was over done, but I think it suits it perfectly. An epic video for an epic song.

I like the Don't Cry video as well. Yes, there are car stunts, but it's cool.

The Estranged video is the only one that I feel is OTT. IMO they shouldn't have made a video for it at all (since it's a song with pauses and an instrumental section) and should have picked Civil War, Dust N' Bones, DTJ or something else.

One epic video for the UYI albums should have been enough.

[One.In.A.Million]

They also don't know their roman numerals... calling "Estranged" Part IV of the trilogy.

Wasn't that because part 3 was originally meant to be a slightly different story?, in Axl's words " a mutual self destruction of the couple that was in November Rain". But because Seymour had other plans, they couldn't finish the trilogy of videos. So Axl had to work on another way to make it work, and that's why they called it part 4.

So I'm confident it wasn't a mistake with the numerals, but something done purposely.

[Voodoochild]

^ Yeah, thats exactly what was the plan. I can't understand how anyone could honestly think it was a mistake to put "part IV of the trilogy".

As for the Estranged video, when I first watched it (there was a special thing on MTV for its release, the video got aired at every 60 min. through all day), I didnt know it was so expansive. I just watched for what it is and I loved it. Remember: that was a time with huge big budget videos from Michael Jackson and others. It made perfect sense to have such an epic feel for the song.

Also, if they had never released an Estranged video Im sure we would complain about it: the song screams for a picture interpretation just like some of the Chinese songs like TWAT and TIL.

[westcoast_junkie]

They also don't know their roman numerals... calling "Estranged" Part IV of the trilogy.

Wasn't that because part 3 was originally meant to be a slightly different story?, in Axl's words " a mutual self destruction of the couple that was in November Rain". But because Seymour had other plans, they couldn't finish the trilogy of videos. So Axl had to work on another way to make it work, and that's why they called it part 4.

So I'm confident it wasn't a mistake with the numerals, but something done purposely.

Am i wrong, or is it S. Seymour's son thats in some of the footage in the beginning of Estranged?

[Limulus]

^^yes, Dylan Seymour is in there, he should be around 20 years old by now.
videos overproduced etc. could very well be, but what i disliked most that a band coming from more of the hard rock-category (AFD days) decided to put out their most expensive videos from ballads only....why not the rockers?? and what topped those 3 clips was the release of the making ofs of all 3 of them, eh.....

[One.In.A.Million]

They also don't know their roman numerals... calling "Estranged" Part IV of the trilogy.

Wasn't that because part 3 was originally meant to be a slightly different story?, in Axl's words " a mutual self destruction of the couple that was in November Rain". But because Seymour had other plans, they couldn't finish the trilogy of videos. So Axl had to work on another way to make it work, and that's why they called it part 4.

So I'm confident it wasn't a mistake with the numerals, but something done purposely.

Am i wrong, or is it S. Seymour's son thats in some of the footage in the beginning of Estranged?

Yes, I believe during the first part of the video, you can see some scenes where Axl's with Dylan.

[Bridge]

^ Yeah, thats exactly what was the plan. I can't understand how anyone could honestly think it was a mistake to put "part IV of the trilogy".

   That statement is bizarre and backwards to me.  Perhaps you should re-read your own words.  You think it's unreasonable for their to be a Part IV (four) of a trilogy (three) under any circumstances?  You think there is no way that creates confusion?

Wasn't that because part 3 was originally meant to be a slightly different story?, in Axl's words " a mutual self destruction of the couple that was in November Rain". But because Seymour had other plans, they couldn't finish the trilogy of videos. So Axl had to work on another way to make it work, and that's why they called it part 4.

Well if Part 3 never happened, why would it be called Part 4?  Three videos = a trilogy, just like 12 eggs = a dozen.

I've been a GNR a long time and I hadn't heard that before.  But it sounds to me like more overelaborate, cryptic psychobabble.  Maybe it's something that made sense in Axl's mind, but to the world at large...

[Voodoochild]

No, I think it did creat some confusion, but not because one would think it was "a mistake".

It was something ironic to explain (in the making of itself) how they needed to add another story on what was just a trilogy. Really, I can't see it as a big deal at all.

[One.In.A.Million]

^ Yeah, thats exactly what was the plan. I can't understand how anyone could honestly think it was a mistake to put "part IV of the trilogy".

   That statement is bizarre and backwards to me.  Perhaps you should re-read your own words.  You think it's unreasonable for their to be a Part IV (four) of a trilogy (three) under any circumstances?  You think there is no way that creates confusion?

Wasn't that because part 3 was originally meant to be a slightly different story?, in Axl's words " a mutual self destruction of the couple that was in November Rain". But because Seymour had other plans, they couldn't finish the trilogy of videos. So Axl had to work on another way to make it work, and that's why they called it part 4.

Well if Part 3 never happened, why would it be called Part 4?  Three videos = a trilogy, just like 12 eggs = a dozen.

I've been a GNR a long time and I hadn't heard that before.  But it sounds to me like more overelaborate, cryptic psychobabble.  Maybe it's something that made sense in Axl's mind, but to the world at large...

Axl called it part 4, to let everyone know that this was not the follow on video from November Rain. But something created, in the event of real life ruining plans and ultimately a relationship. It's Axl's decision, why do you need to dictate and moan. 

You seem be a person who cares about what the rest of the world thinks, rather than sticking your finger up and saying fuck you. I'm sure Axl doesn't give crap about some so called fan, who wants to take the piss just because he called it part 4 and not 3. 

[rabia]

I think its just become the trend among mindless "critics" to diss the UYI era as "bloated" and "self-indulgent".

I'm gonna have to play devil's advocate on that one.  The UYI videos were gaudy and grossly overproduced.  I will disagree that the "Estranged" video is one of the worst videos ever, but I do agree that -- like the videos for "Don't Cry" and "November Rain" -- "Estranged" went way overboard.  The song was a simple song about dealing with unrequited love, but the video involved millions dollars and weeks to film.  For fuck's sake, Slash even had a guitar stunt double!  So I'll agree with the "bloated" and "overindulgent" criticisms.  They had tons of money, so they spent it.  And remember that the yahoo article didn't criticize GNR's music, just the overelaborate videos.

how exactly were Dead Horse or Civil War or Yesterdays or Garden of Eden gaudy or over-produced? they were UYI videos too. A band cant do something on a grand scale as a contrast to their leaner material? What is "gaudy" to you doesnt have to be gaudy to everybody.

Personally, I really like the video for November Rain. Its got creativity, suspense (the what happened? how did she die? part), raw emotion plus theatricality. Whatever the "critics" may say about it, the video is iconic for a reason. It was the most requested video on MTV for a while and brought the band attention from a wider audience than ever before. The guitar solo has been filmed so wonderfully, it gave Slash a truly memorable moment in rock video history. The song may be simple to some but I find the emotions in it complex and the instrumentation quite intricate. The majesty of the environment, costumes, setting etc mirrors the soaring quality of the music. Its a natural fit.

Dont Cry was a very confusing video for a lot of people but the scattered fragments invite audience participation in deriving meaning and I like that.

I do think the Estranged video was overdone in parts (the dolphin metaphor was used excessively even before Axl jumped into the ocean) but I dont see spending big money and taking weeks to film a video as something to cringe about. What has happened to the world if rock, the kind of music usually associated with outrage, drama and general over-the-top-ness cant indulge in those things anymore? I find Estranged an even more complex song than NR. The protagonist goes through various stages in dealing with the loss of his vision of love (anger, pain, contemplation, acceptance)- the song is elaborate and the video takes off from there. t

And I'm aware that the writer here isnt criticizing GNR's music but like I said, the tag of "bloated", "self-indulgent" has just become a general diss attached to the GNR legacy from the UYI era onwards.

[westcoast_junkie]

Do Civil War have a music video??

[Voodoochild]

No, but here at the MTV Brazil they used to air the Tokyo '92 live version as a video. Dunno if it was ever considered something "official".

[rabia]

No, but here at the MTV Brazil they used to air the Tokyo '92 live version as a video. Dunno if it was ever considered something "official".

yup, that's the one they played in Asia too.

[AxlReznor]

I personally can't stand videos that are just of the band playing the song. It's like, "what's the point?".
I much prefer it when artists see creating music videos as an artform in itself rather than as an advertisement for the single. Michael Jackson, Tool, A Perfect Circle, Nine Inch Nails and Guns N' Roses went the extra mile with their videos, and I wouldn't have it the 'Don't Cry', 'November Rain' or 'Estranged' videos any other way.
Someone asked why not do the big epic style videos for their straightforward rockers? Well, because they're straightforward rockers... they call for a different style of of video otherwise it'd just look out of place. But epic songs with an epic production require an epic video... they compliment each other perfectly. And I think the things in 'Don't Cry' like the car crash, etc. wasn't supposed to be a literal interpretation of the lyrics, but a metaphorical interpretation of the feelings going through Axl's mind at the time he wrote the song. Same with all of the other 'weird bits with nothing to do with the song' in the other two videos.

They're basically miniature movies, and if Christopher Nolan can get away with not spoon-feeding meanings and resolutions to his audience (something that I think makes movies like Memento and Inception a whole lot more interesting), I don't see any reason why Axl should. Maybe they are self-indulgent... but I truly believe that all of the best art is.

[Ulises]

No, but here at the MTV Brazil they used to air the Tokyo '92 live version as a video. Dunno if it was ever considered something "official".

Same thing here in Argentina.

[Limulus]

^^same thing on "MTV Europe" in 1992!

i still have VHS Masters from that, recorded from tv (MTV Europe).

[Bridge]

how exactly were Dead Horse or Civil War or Yesterdays or Garden of Eden gaudy or over-produced?

I think it was obvious that I was referring specifically to the trilogy.  I even mentioned them by name.

I do think the Estranged video was overdone in parts

I wouldn't have such a problem with the trilogy videos being elaborate if they actually stuck to the song.  But as I said earlier, what the hell do big stunt car crashes have to do with the lyrics of "Don't Cry"?  The one argument is that they shouldn't just stand on stage and play.  I agree with that.  But the other side (which I take) is that they shouldn't just spend a shitload of money just because they have it, on things that don't make any sense.

the tag of "bloated", "self-indulgent" has just become a general diss attached to the GNR legacy from the UYI era onwards.

Well, with overelaborate videos, a horn section, backup singers, multiple keyboard players (Dizzy Reed, Teddy zigzag), I can see why.  As Izzy Stradlin once said, "whatever happened to five guys playing rock n roll?"

[AxlReznor]

I hate having to quote myself, but...

And I think the things in 'Don't Cry' like the car crash, etc. wasn't supposed to be a literal interpretation of the lyrics, but a metaphorical interpretation of the feelings going through Axl's mind at the time he wrote the song. Same with all of the other 'weird bits with nothing to do with the song' in the other two videos.

They're basically miniature movies, and if Christopher Nolan can get away with not spoon-feeding meanings and resolutions to his audience (something that I think makes movies like Memento and Inception a whole lot more interesting), I don't see any reason why Axl should. Maybe they are self-indulgent... but I truly believe that all of the best art is.

[rabia]

I think its just become the trend among mindless "critics" to diss the UYI era as "bloated" and "self-indulgent".

I'm gonna have to play devil's advocate on that one.  The UYI videos were gaudy and grossly overproduced. 

this is how you started. why reduce the UYI videos only to the trilogy when there are obviously others?

[rabia]

how exactly were Dead Horse or Civil War or Yesterdays or Garden of Eden gaudy or over-produced?

I think it was obvious that I was referring specifically to the trilogy.  I even mentioned them by name.

I do think the Estranged video was overdone in parts

I wouldn't have such a problem with the trilogy videos being elaborate if they actually stuck to the song.  But as I said earlier, what the hell do big stunt car crashes have to do with the lyrics of "Don't Cry"?  The one argument is that they shouldn't just stand on stage and play.  I agree with that.  But the other side (which I take) is that they shouldn't just spend a shitload of money just because they have it, on things that don't make any sense.

the tag of "bloated", "self-indulgent" has just become a general diss attached to the GNR legacy from the UYI era onwards.

Well, with overelaborate videos, a horn section, backup singers, multiple keyboard players (Dizzy Reed, Teddy zigzag), I can see why.  As Izzy Stradlin once said, "whatever happened to five guys playing rock n roll?"

As I said before, attempting to isolate the trilogy as if it exists in isolation is a distorted way of looking at things. The trilogy was just one part of the UYI era videos, it needs to be seen as part of a broader picture.

As AxlReznor and I have been trying to explain, artistic interpretation is'nt about mechanically acting out the lyrics. What I gather from Axl's words in the making of Dont Cry is that the video comments on destructive relationships (among other things). The lyrics too clearly relate to a romantic association that's breaking. The car crash can be a symbolic representation of such destructive dynamics as the emotional damage is configured as physical wreckage. Whether the images "make sense" to people or not depends upon how they engage with them, what associations they bring to the video, etc.


To reiterate, the "overelaborate" videos were only PART of what GN'R produced in these years. Dropping the other videos from the conversation may be convenient because they dont sync with your one-dimensional characterization of GNR from this era but its an artificial choice to ignore them.

Again, whats wrong with 5 guys playing rock n roll evolving? Some of the greatest bands in history like The Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin experimented continuously. The Rolling Stones had a female singer contribute to Gimme Shelter, The Beatles came very far from A Hard Day's Night, Led Zeppelin actually incorporated instruments like the mandolin and mellotron into their songs. Look at how elaborate Kashmir is, with the string and horns sections.

If musicians are marked for life by their early work and are chided for trying other things, it will simply stunt them. Formulaic repetition of old styles is often embraced easily by old-time fans while experimentation can ruffle feathers but that's precisely why it takes guts. Its those artists who grow and develop that I find far more interesting.



 

[King Axl]

I didn't really care for the "Estranged" video, but it's better than the band's last official video, "Since I Don't Have You", which really showcased the band as a bunch of guys who were reveling in the spoils of wealth and had lost their hunger...a truly self-indulgent piece of garbage, the only video I refuse to watch on their DVD collection

[One.In.A.Million]

I didn't really care for the "Estranged" video, but it's better than the band's last official video, "Since I Don't Have You", which really showcased the band as a bunch of guys who were reveling in the spoils of wealth and had lost their hunger...a truly self-indulgent piece of garbage, the only video I refuse to watch on their DVD collection

What, you don't enjoy Dizzy, Gilby and Duff on the beach getting to chat up hot babes.

No, but seriously I don't think it's that bad. But I agree that it does give off the vibe of a band that had lost it's hunger, and was just making a video for the sake of it. 

[Jeramy]

it's one my favorite videos of all time... i always enjoyed the 'weirdness' of it

it's like life you know... make what you want out of it