Damn illegals........

[SLCPUNK]

You're right, everything they said about Iraq is true in Iran.

Which is why not doing anything could prove more costly....

Anybody read the boy who cried wolf?

Please raise your hands.........

I seem to remember at the end of the story a wold did actually attack....

You forgot the moral though...........

[D]

SLC believe it or not, Ive actually started seeing a lot of the points u previously made. Not all of them, but a lot of them.

The only chances the Republicans have, in my opinion to keep the white house is if Guiliani runs or the Democrats back another John Kerry type.

I truly am a democrat, I promise, but Kerry to me was and remains a head scratcher.

After Bush's horrible track record and the horrible job he did, for a democrat to lose to a lame duck president like Bush is just inexcusable. So in an indirect way I blame democrats just as much as republicans cause had any kind of valid candidate ran against Bush, they would've won by a landslide.

how couldnt they have?


ON TOPIC:

I think this illegal immigration has to be handled very carefully. I think Pandora's Box has the opportunity to be opened here and I worry about the legal Residents here now that cant find a job.

I have been tryin for months and cant find work anywhere.So whats gonna happen if millions of illegals start getting the green light to get real jobs?

Factory work here is huge and u know where production is king, they will hire mexicans all day long.

that is not a racial slur or stereotype. I think Mexicans are extremely hard working individuals and factories who are about production would definitely hire them over anyone else.

[Communist China]

I think there is alot more to it than that.

Think of all the tax dollars, think of how many are jailed. think of all the gang bangers and drugs that come across the border.


Sure there are some great illegals who just want to make some money and provide a better life but there are a whole lot of bad ones as well and u cant have an open border.

Yeah, this deficit is clearly the fault of illegal immigrants. Sure, we should stop more, but the jobs they take are mostly jobs Americans don't want. Tax dollars spent as a result of illegal immigration is less than the tax dollars that would be spent to prevent it.

I completely disagree.? Americans are willing to do those jobs, just not at dirt cheap wages.? If the illegals weren't here people would be forced to pay more for those jobs.? I don't blame the average american for not wanting to crappy jobs for sub-minimum wage.? People will take those jobs if they pay the bills.

Your second point is just nonsensical.? All it takes is simple enforcement.? Most of the illegal immigration we have was easily preventable with the resources we currently have devoted to it.

WRONG. If it could be done with what we have now, it would be done. Basic physics shows us that you will always use(lose) energy. We can use this in this example. Tax dollars are like energy. They will be spent to do anything and everything that is done. We lose taxdollars when they get jobs Americans could've had, and we lose tax dollars when jailing them. At the same time, we would lose tax dollars preventing their entry into America. Either we need more people, more training, or more equipment. All of these take Tax dollars, an amount that will at the very least be equal to the amount we lose now.

[Guns N RockMusic]

A huge reason I didnt vote for SLC's boy John Kerry was, his wife's company is one of the biggest job outsourcers in the country. Kind of hypocritical for him to speak of that when his wife's family does it bigger and better than most corporations.

I ignored gunslingers reference to this because he was off subject and most people understand it to be untrue. But now I am going to address it.

1) I don't remember you claiming this once during the election thread

2) It is false anyway.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/heinz.asp

A quick search shows that it is a false claim made by the right to slander Kerry.

So, looks as if your choice to vote for Bush was based on a lie, when a 5 second search could have shown you otherwise.

********

Now, back on topic...........

Did you even read that snopes article?  The Heinz corporation is involved in a "different" kind of outsourcing.  And Kerry "only" has 4% of their stock.  I think you missed my point.  Kerry was involved with a lot more companies that outsourced their work than just Heinz, but keep believing what you want to believe; it seems to work for you.  Don't let facts or truth get in your way.

[Surfrider]

I think there is alot more to it than that.

Think of all the tax dollars, think of how many are jailed. think of all the gang bangers and drugs that come across the border.


Sure there are some great illegals who just want to make some money and provide a better life but there are a whole lot of bad ones as well and u cant have an open border.

Yeah, this deficit is clearly the fault of illegal immigrants. Sure, we should stop more, but the jobs they take are mostly jobs Americans don't want. Tax dollars spent as a result of illegal immigration is less than the tax dollars that would be spent to prevent it.

I completely disagree.? Americans are willing to do those jobs, just not at dirt cheap wages.? If the illegals weren't here people would be forced to pay more for those jobs.? I don't blame the average american for not wanting to crappy jobs for sub-minimum wage.? People will take those jobs if they pay the bills.

Your second point is just nonsensical.? All it takes is simple enforcement.? Most of the illegal immigration we have was easily preventable with the resources we currently have devoted to it.

WRONG. If it could be done with what we have now, it would be done. Basic physics shows us that you will always use(lose) energy. We can use this in this example. Tax dollars are like energy. They will be spent to do anything and everything that is done. We lose taxdollars when they get jobs Americans could've had, and we lose tax dollars when jailing them. At the same time, we would lose tax dollars preventing their entry into America. Either we need more people, more training, or more equipment. All of these take Tax dollars, an amount that will at the very least be equal to the amount we lose now.

Well, sure more resources would be great, but the agents that are supposed to enforce these things have their hands tied behind their backs.  Believe me, I lived in San Diego for a few years; I have worked for the federal government and know quite a few border partrol agents.  The INS agents are not allowed to bust businesses or check for green cards.  Furthermore, there has basically been a catch and release program going on for years.  Of course they could use more resources; I was being some what facetious with my comments.  However, they could crack down on a lot of this with the resources we have and a few simple laws that deny illegal immigrants education, free medical care, welfare, etc.  Certainly though, the amount of resources it would take to crack down on this is nowhere near what we currently spend.  I don't know how you could think that to be true.

By the way, for anyone in a metropolitan city, the immigration protest on May 1st had the opposite effect to the common businessman.  SInce the freeways were clear in southern California, I certainly wasn't overexcited for them to return to work.

[SLCPUNK]

Did you even read that snopes article?  The Heinz corporation is involved in a "different" kind of outsourcing.  And Kerry "only" has 4% of their stock.  I think you missed my point.  Kerry was involved with a lot more companies that outsourced their work than just Heinz, but keep believing what you want to believe; it seems to work for you.  Don't let facts or truth get in your way.

I understood in just fine. And it showed what you claimed was false. It presented what you claimed and then explained how it was false, and why it was false. At the end it even explained further:

Currently, 60% of the sales of the H.J. Heinz Company are outside the United States and to accommodate those customers by providing facilities closer to those markets, the company maintains a number of overseas facilities that provide products for consumers in those markets. This allows Heinz to pack the freshest ingredients, tailor its recipes to local tastes and deliver the finished products in a timely and efficient manner. In the United States, Heinz makes its flagship ketchup in factories in Fremont, Ohio; Muscatine, Iowa; and Stockton, California.

Now you are claiming it is "different", uh...ok.

Please point me to some articles to back your claim.

I found some articles that tried to claim Kerry's stock holdings contradicted his opposition to outsourcing jobs (since many of the large cap holdings in his portfolio did this.) This is quite a stretch to compare stock holdings an individual owns to a large corporation that chooses to outsource its jobs. It would be even more of a stretch to find a large cap company that did not outsource.

Owning a stock in a company does not mean that you ?own? that company. If so, then I would be a blue chip corporate giant around the globe.

Still, nobody has answered my question. Seems as if we have been taken off path once again by the diversion team.

[mikegiuliana]

The title says it all.... I hate it for one reason, they have all the jobs outside of offices.. All the unions that battled to give their worker's rights, good money now have to be under cut and cheated because the worker wants a fair wage.. All those jobs they under bid because they pay their off the book workers peanuts so they can become extra fat cats... The billions we have lost that would have went into social security.. I can't even walk the streets where I live and see Americans doing any blue collar work, landscaping brick laying carpentry etc all being run by some douche bag living high off the hog while they have these fly by nighters breaking ass for nothing.. But I guess nothing is ok when you made nothing before and you get to share an apartment with 15 of your closest friends...  The honest American worker looks like an asshole because he wants his right scale or weekends off (if not with OT) or working safetly...

Our grandfathers fought for good wages, lunch breaks, holidays, over time pay, set number of straight time hours, etc all to be fucking ruined by these tax cheating illegals....

So the regular worker looses out and the bosses get richer..

[Sterlingdog]

Someone emailed this to me and I thought it was an interesting take on the subject.

ASLEEP  AT THE WHEEL
 
I can almost assure you that everyone who is a true American was sickened when you saw multitudes of protesters carrying Mexican flags protesting the new Immigration Reform Bill in the Senate. This display of Mexican flags should give you a heads up on where these protesters allegiance lies. Their hearts are in Mexico and their bellies are in the United  States.
 
As an American of Mexican Heritage I want to set the record straight. American Hispanics are not all thrilled with illegal  immigration.  I, for more than 20 years, tried desperately to bring this national debacle to the attention of the American  people.  I had the privilege of writing for several newspapers,  appeared on national and local TV and radio programs, and was asked by many political groups to address this serious problem affecting my former community (north  Fort  Worth),  city, state, and our country.  Many will question how I can speak on this subject with some authority.  My simple answer is: I lived with the problem!  Trust me, it was no picnic.   Never in my life (I'm 68) had I witnessed the lawlessness, the  deterioration of my community, and the black market criminal underground activities attributed to the influx of illegal  immigrants.
 
To add injury to insult,  politicians soon caved in to the many demands of illegal immigrants.  Notably: bilingual education, bilingual ballots, welfare aid, free medical care, etc. Through all this national disgrace allowed by our  politicians, have you all noticed that no one ever blames the useless,  corrupt, and disgraceful government of  Mexico? In contrast, they lambaste and criticize our country.  How  does that grab you?
 
When I addressed the  dangers of our porous border between Mexico and the United  States, and the lax security of our nation, no one paid attention. As I observed the situation, the problem was perceived to be between American Hispanic communities and illegal immigrants. White Americans, it seemed, assumed that the problem was not theirs to deal with.   In other words they were asleep at the wheel.  However, 9-11 soon woke them up. Lets be honest with each other here, white Americans vote in far larger numbers than Hispanics do. And most politicians (Democrats and Republicans) in our city, state, and federal governments are white.  Thus, who is more suited to fix this national disaster?  I'm sure most of you know what the  answer is.
 
In summation, I'm pleading with white American voters to join me in sending our politicians (Democrats and Republicans) a strong message that we will not tolerate illegal immigrants telling us how to make government policy that will make it easier for them to break our laws.  Hope you will join me in this  endeavor in our upcoming elections.
 
James H. Reza

[gilld1]

Question:  How does Mexico view illegal aliens in their country?

Answer:  They are viewed as felons.

But if we (the US) want to do the same thing them Mexico says it's bad for relations and blah blah blah.  I read a newspaper editorial the other day it said that the extremist groups like the Klan are really having a hayday with all of this.  For the record I do not want this to happen but the potential for a very ugly backlash is there.

[Doc Emmett Brown]

The title says it all.... I hate it for one reason, they have all the jobs outside of offices.. All the unions that battled to give their worker's rights, good money now have to be under cut and cheated because the worker wants a fair wage.. All those jobs they under bid because they pay their off the book workers peanuts so they can become extra fat cats... The billions we have lost that would have went into social security.. I can't even walk the streets where I live and see Americans doing any blue collar work, landscaping brick laying carpentry etc all being run by some douche bag living high off the hog while they have these fly by nighters breaking ass for nothing.. But I guess nothing is ok when you made nothing before and you get to share an apartment with 15 of your closest friends...  The honest American worker looks like an asshole because he wants his right scale or weekends off (if not with OT) or working safetly...

Our grandfathers fought for good wages, lunch breaks, holidays, over time pay, set number of straight time hours, etc all to be fucking ruined by these tax cheating illegals....

So the regular worker looses out and the bosses get richer..

That's interesting. So far we have been talking about illegals doing jobs that Americans dont want to do, but you're talking about blue-collar jobs that Americans used to do, back in the day.  I didnt know it was a problem in NYC too.

I think that's why the govt just pretends to be against illegal immigrants. They want to help big business maximize their profits.  Dirty deeds done dirt cheap.

[mikegiuliana]

The title says it all.... I hate it for one reason, they have all the jobs outside of offices.. All the unions that battled to give their worker's rights, good money now have to be under cut and cheated because the worker wants a fair wage.. All those jobs they under bid because they pay their off the book workers peanuts so they can become extra fat cats... The billions we have lost that would have went into social security.. I can't even walk the streets where I live and see Americans doing any blue collar work, landscaping brick laying carpentry etc all being run by some douche bag living high off the hog while they have these fly by nighters breaking ass for nothing.. But I guess nothing is ok when you made nothing before and you get to share an apartment with 15 of your closest friends...? The honest American worker looks like an asshole because he wants his right scale or weekends off (if not with OT) or working safetly...

Our grandfathers fought for good wages, lunch breaks, holidays, over time pay, set number of straight time hours, etc all to be fucking ruined by these tax cheating illegals....

So the regular worker looses out and the bosses get richer..

That's interesting. So far we have been talking about illegals doing jobs that Americans dont want to do, but you're talking about blue-collar jobs that Americans used to do, back in the day.? I didnt know it was a problem in NYC too.

I think that's why the govt just pretends to be against illegal immigrants. They want to help big business maximize their profits.? Dirty deeds done dirt cheap.

You know something only a complete asshole believes mexicans or any other illegal does jobs americans don't want to do... Maybe if I didn't have a family and lived with 15 people (pooling my rent) I could live on that slave wage but truth be told Americans don't do those jobs because they can't live on that wage.. Who the fuck is going to live in nyc on those few bucks per hour??

Americans still do those jobs, there are tons of unions out there, it's just they are being under cut because their illegals don't make any money so they can bid anything for a job..

How about worker's rights and prevailing wage... I watched a bunch of mexicans doing ironr worker's work putting up steel beams by hand and scaffold.. It's fucking dangerous and idiotic. why do we have safe working conditions and tools, craines?? So now I have to work like an unsafe asshole because of these fucking criminals?

[Anguro]

First of all... I'm mexican..... second..... I don't agree and I don't support illegal immigrants... but!!! this is an economic issue that happens all over the world where theres a 1st world country next to a 3rd world one..... it happens the same in Germany with Turkey.... the same in Spain with Morocco.... the same in England with Poland (despite they're not near from the other)..... and there's no way to avoid it.

... I don't excuse my country fellows..... but I find this normal for them since it's an economical effect of a lot of factors... we en Mexico have A LOT of immigrants from Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, etc etc etc..... and it happens exactly the same than in the USA......... so....... it's an economical effect, and it's more notorious in USA than in other countries because USA is the 1st economy in the world, and because USA and Mexico have the largest border in the world.... so.... we can look for answers.... but it won't stop..... no matter what USA or Mexico do........

Just my opinion

[Communist China]

Well, sure more resources would be great, but the agents that are supposed to enforce these things have their hands tied behind their backs.? Believe me, I lived in San Diego for a few years; I have worked for the federal government and know quite a few border partrol agents.? The INS agents are not allowed to bust businesses or check for green cards.? Furthermore, there has basically been a catch and release program going on for years.? Of course they could use more resources; I was being some what facetious with my comments.? However, they could crack down on a lot of this with the resources we have and a few simple laws that deny illegal immigrants education, free medical care, welfare, etc.? Certainly though, the amount of resources it would take to crack down on this is nowhere near what we currently spend.? I don't know how you could think that to be true.

By the way, for anyone in a metropolitan city, the immigration protest on May 1st had the opposite effect to the common businessman.? SInce the freeways were clear in southern California, I certainly wasn't overexcited for them to return to work.

My point is still valid. If you put these regulations on business, they lose some money, lay off workers or raise prices, and in the end you've spent more money. If you want to do more than catch-and-release you will have to spend money in jailing or whatever it is you intend to do. Also, if our current forces are suddenly expected to do more, they'll suddenly expect to get paid more. There is nothing simple or easy in this, or any, debate. I'm not saying we shouldn't do something, but I want to make sure you all realize that this is an extremely complicated problem.

[SLCPUNK]

I want to make sure you all realize that this is an extremely complicated problem.

I could not agree more..........

[SLCPUNK]

WTF?

Washington, DC?In an unprecedented policy, the Bush Administration has acknowledged that it has been providing information about the location of Minutemen patrols to the Mexican government. In spite of widespread criticism of its failure to protect America?s security by regaining control of the border, the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agency has been devoting manpower to monitoring the activities of the Minutemen, even as record numbers of illegal aliens pour across our borders.

The information being turned over by the Bush Administration to the Mexican government is meant to reassure them that the rights of illegal border crossers are being protected. Mexican authorities have been kept abreast of where the Minutemen are patrolling and when they have made apprehensions of illegal aliens. Both Presidents Bush and Fox have referred to the Minutemen as ?vigilantes,? despite the fact there has not been a single documented case of abuse in more than a year of civilian patrols.

?This policy is a shocking and disgraceful display of pandering to the government of Mexico,? reacted Dan Stein, president of FAIR. ?Compounding this egregious behavior is the fact that the Department of Homeland Security is recklessly endangering the lives of law abiding citizens. Many of those running the border smuggling operations are violent criminals who would not hesitate to use deadly force against anyone who stands in their way.?

The policy of informing Mexican authorities about the activities of the Minutemen coincides with the Bush Administration?s efforts to institute a massive illegal alien amnesty and guest worker program. It has been the administration?s position that the only way to gain control of the border is to provide ?legal channels? for migrants to enter the U.S. to work.

?Not only does the Bush Administration seem to have no interest in controlling the border, they want to make sure no one else does either,? said Stein. ?What they want is an unending flow of foreign workers entering the U.S. and chaos at the border. They seem to believe this will strengthen their case for the amnesty and guest worker programs they so desperately want.?

According to a report in the Ontario, California, Daily Bulletin, Border Patrol officers have been told by the superiors not to give credit to the Minutemen when arrests occur based on their tips and have even been ordered not to respond to Minuteman calls.

?This is not a case of diplomatic protocol or protecting the rights of illegal aliens. This is a politically motivated effort to promote an amnesty/guest worker program that is overwhelmingly opposed by the American public,? Stein charged. ?What is even more shocking is that this administration appears willing to compromise the security of this nation and the safety of law abiding citizens to achieve its goal of a massive guest worker program.?

AP

[Sterlingdog]

Stories like that just make me sad.  How will our country ever recover from what this administration has done to it?  Its practically overwhelming.  It makes me not want to follow current events at all. 

[mikegiuliana]

bush doesn't care, his words in the past were like if your job goes away go back to community college.. That's pretty nice answer when you are a multimillionaire who never new what earning a living was or being out of work..

Illegals are american's fault too, I know plenty of people that pic up a mexican to do whatever they need done.. The fucking corners are loaded an random cars come by.. Enough to make someone sick..

[lennonisgod]

I haven't read this whole thread but what about Cuba too?  It's just as bad.  I learned in US History class that they empty out their prisons and then send them to America on the boats.  What the fuck is that about??  This whole country is beginning to suck.  So much stuff that happens shouldn't be happening.  Fuck, a petaphile can rape a little kid and get 5 years, but if you rape an adult you get life.  Does that make sense??  Either one should be a death sentence.

[SLCPUNK]

I haven't read this whole thread but what about Cuba too? 

Ever been to Miami?

[lennonisgod]

I haven't read this whole thread but what about Cuba too? 

Ever been to Miami?

Nope, but I hear it's a very bad place to be.  It has gone very downhill in the last decade.