Parenting

[Albert S Miller]

Big mistake I think. Coddle the child like that and you'll soon have a 28 yr old living in your basement posting on GnR message boards all day.  Even worse they could grow up to be a miserable 48 year old with about twenty online aliases who makes pseudo threats with pretend lawyers...but I digress.

I had gone real easy on my yute and told her I was willing to accept light chores and good grades as a form of rent. She slacked over and over on the chores so now I charge her the water bill. If she doesn't pay me that she can hit the road. I will not accommodate laziness or contribute to a sense of entitlement. Work hard or gtfo.

I did not want my children to have jobs away from home, because one I did not want work to get in the way of school, and two I wanted them to be kids while they had the chance to do so, as it is they grow up so fast. Chores around the house however, were the way they earned their spending money and it taught them the value of the mighty dollar.  As far as kicking them out, not me so much, we will support both here in our home with no financial expectations until they have fullfilled their educations.  As it is the same today, I could still go home to my parents if need be and the door will always be open to them.  So different parenting can be.

[TAP]

On A serious note

Sometimes, Don't u think in a way a lot of it is just a crap shoot? 

Not a lot as in the majority but certainly a significant amount. If you're at either extreme of the nature/nurture debate - determinism or blank slate say - you're wrong. Of course there is such a thing as good parenting, and it will make a difference but genes have an effect too, and you're right serial killers can have great parents. Point being, don't beat yourself up and blame yourself if you are doing your best and your kid(s) screw up.

[SLCPUNK]

Big mistake I think. Coddle the child like that and you'll soon have a 28 yr old living in your basement posting on GnR message boards all day.  Even worse they could grow up to be a miserable 48 year old with about twenty online aliases who makes pseudo threats with pretend lawyers...but I digress.

I had gone real easy on my yute and told her I was willing to accept light chores and good grades as a form of rent. She slacked over and over on the chores so now I charge her the water bill. If she doesn't pay me that she can hit the road. I will not accommodate laziness or contribute to a sense of entitlement. Work hard or gtfo.

I did not want my children to have jobs away from home, because one I did not want work to get in the way of school, and two I wanted them to be kids while they had the chance to do so, as it is they grow up so fast. Chores around the house however, were the way they earned their spending money and it taught them the value of the mighty dollar.  As far as kicking them out, not me so much, we will support both here in our home with no financial expectations until they have fullfilled their educations.  As it is the same today, I could still go home to my parents if need be and the door will always be open to them.  So different parenting can be.

If I allow my kid to blow off contributing to the house, and then blow of paying a minuscule amount of rent, then what am I teaching her? I had zero financial expectations until she failed to live up to her end of the bargain. My original offer was to stay at home until she achieved her goals with school. Her "rent" was helping out around the house, and that was it. I must have given her half a dozen chances before I said "OK, you're paying the water bill, and are still required to do chores in order to stay here." We're talking about fifteen minutes of stuff a day here.

I understand what you are saying, but imo I am sending the wrong message if I allow a young adult to do whatever they want in my house and refuse to contribute. If she chooses the hard way, then she can join the millions of other kids who work, go to school, and pay rent. I have no problem with that.

[Axl4Prez2004]

^sorry TAP.  You mean well and that's cool, but I do disagree.  I see an overwhelming correlation between shitty parenting and shitty kids.  Sorry.  I guess it could be considered a "crapshoot" if the game is completely rigged.

Now, let me define "shitty kids," because I know I'm going to catch heat on that.  I am referring to disrespectful children.  I'm talking about lazy children.  I am talking about apathetic children.  I am talking about mean children.

So yes, I do believe parents of shitty children should look in the mirror at the chief culprit.  It's so easy to blame society.  Fuck that.    

btw, SLC was right to stand his ground.  The ground rules were in place and apparently, she didn't live up to her end of the bargain.  That's life.  My kids are still young, but when they get to post-high school life, they'll always have a place to stay in between semesters.  If something comes up (because life does throw curveballs) we'll be here for them.  But, they'd be absolutely expected to be on track with regards to their education whether it be college, vocational, or whatever it is they are actively pursuing.

and Bandita's "Oh, that's another thing.

I have a girlfriend who wrote a blog today about her teenage son.

He is about to graduate from High School and refuses to fill out his college applications and scholarship paperwork.  He hasn't even done his essay.

She wants to do it for him.  Not the essay part but she is trying to bargain with him by saying if he does the essay that she will do all the other paperwork.

I personally am dead set against it.  I think it is a terrible idea to show him that if he just doesn't bother that someone will come along and clean it up for him.

I am an only child.  I was totally spoiled and the part my parents messed up on was cleaning up ALL my messes.  I didn't learn a damn thing from it besides that if I messed up that someone was going to come in and fix it.

I learned a harder lesson a few years later when we were pretty much bolted into financial despair and there were no more magic fairies to clean up all my disasters and bad decisions.  It was the best thing that ever happened to me."
Nice post Bandita, you're gonna be a great mom.   

[SLCPUNK]

Hey man, if the kid doesn't want to go to college, put him to work. Let him live a year on that type of income in his OWN apartment. He'll be back in school before you know it. Nothing like a good old fashioned ass kicking to wake you the hell up.

[Bandita]

Hey man, if the kid doesn't want to go to college, put him to work. Let him live a year on that type of income in his OWN apartment. He'll be back in school before you know it. Nothing like a good old fashioned ass kicking to wake you the hell up.

That was my point in saying what I did.  If you are 17 or 18 years old and can't fill out a damn application without Mommy, there is a problem.

I worked in the HR office at a hotel.  I can't even tell you how many Mom's came in looking for jobs for their kids or calling on the phone about an ad we placed.  When asked how old the child was the usual answer was 17 or 18.  Hell NO, I don't want to hire your kid if he can't even come in himself and inquire about the job!

I can see if I had a teen that needed a job and I saw an ad somewhere.  I would go as far as to circle it and leave it where he could see it.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Hey man, if the kid doesn't want to go to college, put him to work. Let him live a year on that type of income in his OWN apartment. He'll be back in school before you know it. Nothing like a good old fashioned ass kicking to wake you the hell up.

I plan on teaching my kids this lesson as best I can before it gets to that point.  If it really comes to what SLC's talking about, yes, it has to be done.  Hopefully, my kids will be able to learn the stove-top's heat burns without them having to put their hand to the coils, ya know what I'm sayin'?  It doesn't take a math genius to realize not pursuing your education doesn't work out so well.

[TAP]

^sorry TAP.  You mean well and that's cool, but I do disagree.  I see an overwhelming correlation between shitty parenting and shitty kids.  Sorry.  I guess it could be considered a "crapshoot" if the game is completely rigged.

Genes affect behaviour, that's established scientific fact it's not my opinion. It's probabilistic not binary, and I certainly wouldn't argue that genetics are more important than parenting or even as important, but it is significant - identical twins separated at birth tend to have similar behaviours, interests etc whereas adopted kids brought up in the same environment by the same parents can exhibit very different behaviour and responses to the same parenting. I'm not presenting this as an excuse by any means, but recent Western culture (esp. social scientists/behavioural pyschologists) have placed almost a total responsibility on parenting for kid's behaviour which has had the effect of creating guilt in parents who genuinely are trying.

[Bandita]

You're gonna draw Norway into this thread with your talk of genes!

[Axl4Prez2004]

^sorry TAP.  You mean well and that's cool, but I do disagree.  I see an overwhelming correlation between shitty parenting and shitty kids.  Sorry.  I guess it could be considered a "crapshoot" if the game is completely rigged.

Genes affect behaviour, that's established scientific fact it's not my opinion. It's probabilistic not binary, and I certainly wouldn't argue that genetics are more important than parenting or even as important, but it is significant - identical twins separated at birth tend to have similar behaviours, interests etc whereas adopted kids brought up in the same environment by the same parents can exhibit very different behaviour and responses to the same parenting. I'm not presenting this as an excuse by any means, but recent Western culture (esp. social scientists/behavioural pyschologists) have placed almost a total responsibility on parenting for kid's behaviour which has had the effect of creating guilt in parents who genuinely are trying.

TAP, I respect your posts and I agree what you wrote is well-thought out...but I respectfully disagree and here's why.  Yes, genetics play a part, but here's the deal.  Parenting is an art.  What do you do with the clay you are given?  You work with different sets of clay differently.  Yes, you need consistency, but then again, a good parent finds the strengths and weaknesses that are in-born, and then develops their parenting style to meet the needs of the child.  Most parents, yes most parents are dumb as shit and don't recognize this fact.  Show me a parent who lets their kid get away with shit with no repercussions and I'll show you a shitty kid.  Show me a parent who rules (like CD says) "with an iron fist" and I'll show you a kid with severe issues.

TAP, what I'm trying to say is things like compassion and violence are learned behaviors.  Parents make the mistake of answering violence with violence.  Parents discourage compassion in boys and allow little girls to play dumb...yeah, trust me, environment's a bitch and controlling it gives you incredible odds at succeeding in parenting.

[TAP]

TAP, what I'm trying to say is things like compassion and violence are learned behaviors.  

Science disagrees, that doesn't make science right but it doesn't make you right either. Science probably has more available data though.

[Axl4Prez2004]

TAP, what I'm trying to say is things like compassion and violence are learned behaviors.  

Science disagrees, that doesn't make science right but it doesn't make you right either. Science probably has more available data though.

Dude, you of all folks should realize the limitations of scientific studies in the social "sciences."  It's impossible to eliminate other variables...also, words like violence and compassion are subjective terms.

Trust me, you know I'm science-based and a strict believer in reason.  Trust me, it isn't a crap-shoot.  Environment is key.  All the greatest vegetable seeds will flounder if the soil, sun, and water are of limited or poor quality.   

[JMack]

TAP=Reader Ah Ha!  Reading is dumb.

[JMack]

Really you can't plan out a child's path and expect the child to follow it.  You live and learn and so do they.  The way you raise your child maybe perfect but if you had that prick gene in you as a kid, you child may have it as well.  I have three and their all different.  They're all good kids/adults but the little guy maybe a fighter like his old man and no he wasn't taught to act that way.  He has a short temper and cares less who it's with.  They are all respectful to the elder peeps but hey you don't know?

[TAP]

TAP, what I'm trying to say is things like compassion and violence are learned behaviors.  

Science disagrees, that doesn't make science right but it doesn't make you right either. Science probably has more available data though.

Dude, you of all folks should realize the limitations of scientific studies in the social "sciences."  It's impossible to eliminate other variables...also, words like violence and compassion are subjective terms.

Trust me, you know I'm science-based and a strict believer in reason.  Trust me, it isn't a crap-shoot.  Environment is key.  All the greatest vegetable seeds will flounder if the soil, sun, and water are of limited or poor quality.   

You are misrepresenting me - I've said nature and nurture both have an effect, and I most certainly did not say that environment does not have an effect and I didn't say it was a crapshoot. You appear to be saying that environment is the sole effect unless I'm mistaken. Explanations for human behaviour should work across all history and cultures not just late 20th century/early 21st century North East USA to be valid, discounting genetics is ridiculous.

[TAP]

Really you can't plan out a child's path and expect the child to follow it.  You live and learn and so do they.  The way you raise your child maybe perfect but if you had that prick gene in you as a kid, you child may have it as well.  I have three and their all different.  They're all good kids/adults but the little guy maybe a fighter like his old man and no he wasn't taught to act that way.  He has a short temper and cares less who it's with.  They are all respectful to the elder peeps but hey you don't know?

Absolutely. Plus how do you explain Michael and Rudolf Schenker?

[JMack]

Really you can't plan out a child's path and expect the child to follow it.  You live and learn and so do they.  The way you raise your child maybe perfect but if you had that prick gene in you as a kid, you child may have it as well.  I have three and their all different.  They're all good kids/adults but the little guy maybe a fighter like his old man and no he wasn't taught to act that way.  He has a short temper and cares less who it's with.  They are all respectful to the elder peeps but hey you don't know?

Absolutely. Plus how do you explain Michael and Rudolf Schenker?

Ha your right and what time are you dropping the kid off in the A.M.?

[Axl4Prez2004]

TAP, I didn't mean to misrepresent you.  We are in agreement that it's not all nature or all nurture.  I tend to believe the scale is tilted toward environment.  You seem to place more importance on genetics than I do.  That's cool.

JMack, I don't remember seeing anybody advocating planning out a child's path and/or expecting them to follow it.
Parenting's all about creating an environment that allows the child to create their own path.

[TAP]

TAP, I didn't mean to misrepresent you.  We are in agreement that it's not all nature or all nurture.  I tend to believe the scale is tilted toward environment.  You seem to place more importance on genetics than I do.  That's cool.

I said I think it's tilted toward environment too.

But I will stress my underlying point again: Modern Western culture (lead by social science and psychology) has tilted 100% towards environment/parenting - one effect being that 'good' parents are made to feel guilty if their kid screws up and that can be bad for both parents and child. All kids screw up, and it's not always your (the parent's) fault.

[D]

I think sometimes though, parents put way too high of expectations on their kids. sometimes it takes a while to find yourself. Hell, I have one of the greatest mothers on earth, but I am just now graduating college in another year. I do agree with SLC though, that if your kid doesn't want to go to college. Put them to work. I know for me, it took me some years but after a few shitty jobs/bosses dead ends, it won't take long to get back onto the right path.

I'm not a huge fan of "Tough Love" though. I think sometimes it works, but other times it can really push the kid away and then the rebellion stuff starts.

I am going to lead by example, be firm but fair, always supportive and kind of let my kid when they get older find their way. as long as they are happy,  I really don't care if they are a doctor or a bag boy.