Here Today... Gone To Hell!

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/19529829.html

Three Bloomington seniors barred from graduation over Confederate flag prank
(http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/502*320/1confederate0605.jpg)
Justin Thompson, 18, Joey Snyder, 17, and Dan Fredin, 18, were suspended from Bloomington Kennedy High School.

Three Bloomington Kennedy seniors were kept from their graduation after bringing Confederate flags to school.


Three high school seniors were barred from Bloomington Kennedy High School's graduation ceremony Wednesday night at Target Center because of what the school district called a prank involving Confederate flags.

Rick Kaufman, a spokesman for the Bloomington School District, said three male students brought the flags onto school property Tuesday morning. Kaufman said they were suspended after "carrying and waving" the flags in the parking lot as parents and students arrived at the school.

Bloomington Kennedy senior Kellie Rezac is a friend of the three boys. She helped organize a protest Wednesday against the suspension of Dan Fredin, 18, Justin Thompson, 18 and Joey Snyder, 17.

Rezac said the flags were on the boys' cars and that her friends aren't racists. She said they've flown the Confederate flag before and simply admire the "Southern lifestyle" and TV shows such as "The Dukes of Hazzard." A male character from the popular 1980s show would slide across the hood of a now iconic two-door muscle car featuring a Confederate flag decal.

Fredin said teachers and security guards told the boys to get rid of the flags.

One of them complied and another drove the truck home and returned to school without it.

"They didn't even drive 100 feet into the school parking lot and the teachers and [security guards] came out and said 'remove it from sight,'" Fredin said.

He had arrived separately and had gone into the building before the teachers made the request. Fredin said someone removed the flag from his vehicle on Tuesday without notifying him. "I don't even know where it is now."

Principal Ron Simmons spoke with the boys shortly after the incident and suspended each of them for three days based on the district's anti-discrimination rules. Superintendent Les Fujitake affirmed Simmons' decision Tuesday evening, despite objections from the boys' parents and several students.

"The Confederate flag is an issue we take seriously, regardless of their intent," Kaufman, the district spokesman, said.

As recently as 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear appeals from students disciplined for displaying the Confederate flag. Many lower courts that have addressed the issue upheld decisions by school administrators.

But Fredin and Rezac contend Principal Simmons overreacted. Fredin said Simmons didn't witness the boys' compliance with other staff members' orders to remove the flag from school property.

"I'm from a family of five, and I'm the first one not to walk [in graduation]," Fredin said. "It's like getting life in prison for jaywalking."

Rezac said almost 100 Kennedy students participated in the protest in support of the boys on Wednesday morning, including black students who are friends of the boys. Students wore white T-shirts with the three students' names and chanted, "Let them walk."

"The Confederate flag was in Confederate battles, and it had nothing to do with slavery," said Rezac, who said she's studied the Civil War outside of school. "The [Bloomington Kennedy] class of 2008 wants to walk together."

Kennedy seniors were on campus Wednesday morning for graduation practice, and school officials reportedly asked the protesters to remove the T-shirts before they entered the rehearsal. The protesters complied, Kaufman said.

"This doesn't mean they [the three boys] won't get their diploma," he said. "They've earned that. But graduation is a privilege, not a right."

Bloomington's conduct policies ban students from any school-sponsored activities including graduation during a suspension. Kennedy's student body is made up of more than 40 percent minority students, according to the state Department of Education.

Kaufman said it's unfortunate that the boys' decision resulted in their exclusion from the graduation ceremony, but the ban on the Confederate flag isn't new. He said Kennedy High students know the flag is banned because it may violate anti-discrimination policies.

It's fucked up - I went to this school, graduated last year. There has NEVER been anything 'bout the flag in our/their student handbook. Then again, with the ignorance of the principal that I've experianced first hand, this ain't fucking shocking. This principal is the same stupid fuck who once told me fuck was a verb after I said fuck you to him, and got canned from the Atlanta Falcons for not being able to pass a drug test. I wish I would've found out about this last night though...that protest would've had a lot more people.

EDIT: This years Student Handbook; http://www.bloomington.k12.mn.us/indschool/JFK/EntireHandbook0708_002.htm

No sympathy for them.

I came to Florida in 82 and at that time it was still very Redneck and extremely prejudice. Everybody I knew who had a rebel flag in their pickup used the word nigger, spit tobacco and was illiterate. To me that flag represents stupidity, ignorance the hate.

I concur with Booker.  What point are you making waving a Confederate flag in the school parking lot?  If folks don't think that flag is offensive, they must be living under a rock.  Perhaps they'd like to wave a swastika next time to promote their civil liberties or perhaps a big poster of Osama Bin Laden...very silly.    admired the "southern lifestyle", gimme a break.   ::)

    

I see your point, SLC. But out here, there isn't shit, no one but themselves say nigger, or "nigga" as they prefer.

Growing with these kids, knowing 'em for many years, Justin's comments about the country lifestyle fit him to a tee. He's been that way since he was like 5, same with his brother. They're the farthest things from rednecks I've seen. But yet, if the school wants to ban the flag, might as well ban shirts with country singers on 'em, and Skynyrd shirts.

some of you guys are such hypocrites.     to some people in the south that is their heritage.    i don't fly a confederate flag, but i have nothing against those who do.

It's got nothing to do with "southern heritage" genius. People who go around with these flags are prejudice dickwads. They usually get easily swayed and riled up, especially by stories about black preachers and such. 

SOME people who go around with those flags are prejudice dickwads, but not all of them.   I've known a few people who fly that flag and have no problems with blacks.   you can't lump every single person who flys that flag in that category. 

From experience in the South I most certainly can, yes.

Punk, Some of those appreciate the significance of the Constitution.

I fly the "Stars and Bars" ... with pride.

Many of my relations died for the cause, and I find it hard to believe that they died for anything other than freedom.

The vast majority of Southerners were not slave holders, but that is a strawman.

If this is to denegrate into the tyranyt of That fascist Lincoln ... then be it!

Redneck.

I have a lot of mixed feelings on this, my maternal grandparents come from a long line of abolitionists(which I agree), but my dad hails from Va., and has a long history in the war, and politics.

I have to side with the under dog, and what I feel was constitutional.

Well, I am from Fuckedupistan.

Not that I agree with it, but the Constitution is usually discarded once our kids step foot in the public school system.



Where men are free to love their women Au Natural.

Nothing like a good strong woman ... to put you in your place.

Talking about prejudice there, huh?

^^My father said that God would send me to hell for thinking like that ... just sayin'

To clarify a little:

John C Fremont, signed the orders of execution of my grand ma's grand pa. For that reason, I swore an oath to never vote for one of those SOB's(Republican) as long as I shall live.

people in the UK even have the confederate flag lol sometiomes, to me its just a flag for bikers or something. Just a gimmick.

If you give a photo of rednecks abroad ... it would be much appreciated.

Most of the turds who fly the flag, have absolutely no cognizance of it's relevance.

For that reason, the true Southern People have given up the "Southern Cross" for the "Stars and Bars".

It was the true flag of independence.

Here in Finland we (HIFK-fans) are actually using the flag to support our team, back in the old days it was like the second "logo" for HIFK. These days it's pretty rare in our games though. But hey, it fits our colours and it has a couple of stars on it and we're from the south so..

http://www.b2reds.com/kuvat/jokeritifk200107/364941256_f8cee0fad1_o.jpg

We do know what it stands for, or what some people think it stands for.

Thus always to tyrants ...

muerto tyranos

Florida isn't the south.  Its just Southern New York/ New Jersey with just a few red necks sprinkled among them.

Listen, the flag to many represents hate.  To others, it is a pride thing or whatever.  And the Civil War wasn't about slavery either.  That was a side bar.  The North and South fought over money.  And man for man, the South beat the fuck out of the north with their superior generals.  But they had less men and money in the end.

It is a symbol of Rebel and our boy Axl even used to hang the confederate flag.  Its just the flag of the rebel yell.  Just good old country boys wave that shit.  I think its lame, but it doesn't have shit to do with blacks really.  They just love being country and going muddin and hunting and shit like that.  Fuck, look at the dukes of hazard.  They had it on the general lee.

Remember, there were slaves in the north as well.  Its not a southern only thing.

That about sums it up best....I think people are making way to big a deal about this, theres WAY more importat issues to worry about.

Flying the confederate flag always seems to stir up some kind of trouble.  Which always makes me wonder if stirring up trouble was the flag wavers motive all along. It comes off as some kind of cry for attention, even if it's bad attention.  I'm from Virginia and don't really get into all this Southern heritage bullshit.  The Civil War was 143 fuckin years ago.  And, uh.....we lost.   ???

not always, take a look at this dude's website
http://rebelwithaclue.com/

In the south there is no doubt about what is stands for.


Please, I don't need a lesson on where I've lived for 22 yrs. When I moved down here it was the south, filled with stupid rednecks and trailers. It's why you don't see as many flags these days, until you get to the more rural parts of the state, usually in the center.

That guy isn't promoting hate or intolerance and I don't think everyone who waves the flag is.  But....what makes people so adamant about promoting an irrelevant symbol when it stirs up so much shit?  Did they have ancestors that died in the Civil War?  Do they know that or just assume it? Their answers always seem to be so vague. They should explain themselves beyond just "southern heritage."  Then it may not be such a big deal.

Florida Pan handle to Jacksonville including Orlando and Gainsville, South... Below Orlando, New York and New Jersey.  Better?

That flag represents hate and nothing more.

I'm not arguing that, and that's why you don't see that many rebel flags from Tampa down to the Keys. But like I said, when I moved down here, it was much more hillbilly redneck with Rebel flags all over the place.

Well, I'm pretty sure i'v been to many shows and saw that flag onstage. I highly doubt Kid Rock is a racist, ya know, the drummer being black and all. I also highly doubt Skynard are a bunch of rasists. It may represent hate to you, but to others it's siply a rebel flag. Hell, when I was in Gettysburg, they sold them in giftshops. And that was in a northern state. Like I said, theres plenty more to worry about right now in this world than a flag.

No need for the racial slurs people.

With the exception of Orlando and the Orange County area, I agree about the middle of Florida.  Where you live is certainly more "north like" than "southern" though (now).

I was at the Columbia Restaurant last weekend and it seemed very non-redneckish.

I think its a double standard and further proof of our rights eroding away.

I don't support the confederate flag, but I dont understand if someone does,why they are punished for their beliefs.

I feel we are slowly but surely getting away from democracy and everything is being dictated based on what you are "Suppose" to believe.

Its the same double standard that if there is a black rally, everyone supports it but a KKK rally people riot and protest and throw rocks.

Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe regardless of what the majority thinks of it.

There are plenty of NYers here now, my uncle Pete is moving down from NY right now, just bought a house. But that wasn't my point. My point was when I moved her years ago (1982) there were Rebel flags galore, and the people that had them were all ignorant rednecks who referred to blacks as niggers. Those days are gone, and you rarely see rebel flags anymore, it is very rare. If you do, you have to venture to rural areas, usually towards the middle of the state. They still sell rebel flags, rebel flag hats, and hatpins, right next to other hats full of racial slurs, and white supremacist garbage. One I remember in particular said "The real boyz in the hood" complete with KKK logo/hood as the picture on the hat. I see shit like that all over rural Florida still, being sold at gas stations and convenient stores.

Which Columbia? In Ybor?

 


In public school system, your Constitutional rights are second tier to their rules, no matter how idiotic or backasswards. Public school and the state of Utah.

Not letting kids graduate for a flag to me is wrong. Now if they were in the parking lot shouting racial slurs etc, then yeah, thats a whole nother ballgame. I just wonder about people who automatically see a rebel flag as a racist piece of propaganda. sometimes it just means u are a rebel and are against the norm.

I think it has evolved as a symbol from the confederacy.

I never looked at the rebel flag as a symbol meaning "we hate minorities"

to me is an Anti-establishment symbol meaning we arent taking your bullshit rules.

You mean things have changed?

Remind me to tell you about my experience in Jacksonville a few years back.

That flag is offensive, I don't care what you try to say it means.  I highly doubt these kids decided to display them RIGHT NOW as part of embracing their Southern heritage.

 ::)<---This is me seriously rolling my eyes.

its also part of the Mississippi state flag
(http://www.theinmatelocator.com/images/mississippi_flag.jpg)

its just a symbol.  people need to stop getting their panties in a bunch over silly shit like this.

Yes, well we all know that Mississippi is quite the progressive state. ;)

I just think people need to stop trying to tell other people who and what they should believe in.

I have no problem with the confederate flag. I agree it looks redneck and stupid, but if someone wants to wear or fly it, thats their prerogative and I am not gonna judge them for it.

Remember the Malcolm X shirts?  Those were hip, he was filled with hate. 

I live in Central Pennsylvania........no where near the south, but it irks me to see so many of them around here.  I mean seriously, none of these idiots are from the South....they are the ones who use the flag as a sign of hate, because like SLC said of the hillbillies in Florida....they're the same way around here....racist and ignorant.  

I for one am not offended by the flag, even if the South did claim the life of my great, great, great, great, great, great grandpappy General Eusteus "Cornrow" Bill213.  I could hold that over my head in negativity, but I choose to move on.

And to the dude saying they sell the flag in Gettysburg, of course they do.  Gettysburg is a giant tourist shithole trap out to get the dollar.  Do you think if this whole flag thing was about heritage that they'd be selling the flag of their enemy in their shops.  They sell it because some douchebag Kid Rock listening, tobacco chewing, Pabst Blue Ribbon drinking, cousin loving, stone cold steve austin wannabe hillbilly thinks it cool to hang in the window of their pick'em up truck.

Perhaps my neighbor, who's great great grandfather served for Germany in WW2 should wave a Nazi flag in tribute to their heritage?  Wonder if anyone would get offended by her doing that?  Oh that's right, everyone would relate it to the slaughting of millions of Jewish people and claim that she is a monster.  

Folks the Civil War was about slavery, plain as that........that money you're talking about, was money generated by slavery because the South knew they would perish without it.  The amount of slaves that existed in the North by the 1840's was in the hundreds.......compared to the hundreds of thousands in the South.  As soon as the southern states saw that Lincoln was to be president they started secession with South Carolina.

^^^^

Thinks some people here needed that little history lesson.

Thanks, Bill. ;D

Bill 213 is on the money.  People really need to put themselves in others' shoes sometimes.  Imagine you are driving down a country road off the highway (you didn't have money for the tolls) and you're close to running out of gas...you're in an area near dusk and the only house is a farmhouse waving the ol' stars and bars...okay...now imagine you are an African-American...alone...do you think you are going to feel comfortable going up to this house asking for help? 

Simply put though, the best part of this thread was the dude saying, "The Civil War wasn't about slavery, that was just a side bar".

Who was this dude's American history teacher, David Duke?

ha...that's awesome  : ok:

Uh, I would be afraid too!

Well Billy boy, I happen to be a Kid Rock listener. Hell, sometimes I'm a tobacco chewer. PBR is some potent great shit, and I'll go ya one better....the greatest weekend of the year (other than Gn'R playing....is the fuckin NASCAR race. So to all hell with your close minded cliche bullshit. Ya know what? Hell, I'm glad  political correctness assholes like you are offended. All the more reason to keep flying it with pride.

But I thought I made it clear I wasn't offended by it?  Just annoyed at the poser "southerners" who claim to be proud of their southern heritage...which to me is kind of funny.  So a bunch of your great great great great grandpappy's decided they'd rather own human beings than be a unified country.  They fought a miserable 4 year rebellion against the government only to generally succumb to the "Lost Cause" rationing of the war.  That stuff about PBR and Tobacco, that was all in good fun.

But yeah, what's so joyous about that?  That'd be like if everyone today in Boston got an erection everytime they saw a teabag (which I'm neither confirming nor denying) because of the importance of the Boston Tea Party.  It's a fucking flag, nothing more nothing less....but now it's something that mongoloids are using to pretend to be cool and racist.  Infact, just like you placed the one in your avatar....to get a rise out of people.

I'm about as far from PC as you'll ever get......I support the idealogy of Common Sense, which is few and far between these days.  It doesn't take a flag or a song or a president or a building or monument or great war general to make me proud of my heritage.  I love this entire country with all my heart, regardless of the disgusting politicians and their shitty government that is placed in charge of it, the horrible crimes that are taking place every second from coast to coast, the symbols of hatred and oppression, the lines of seperation that still exist to this day and everything else that is wrong with it.  I'm not going to raise a flag that I know will offend people, just to get a rise out of my buddies.   

Well you must have to beat the ladies off with the stick you use to wave the confederate flag !

Honestly, I don't even own a Rebel Flag, it just pisses me off that theres such a big deal made out of it. Kinda like that whole Rachel Ray Dunkin Donuts thing....it's a bunch of bullshit....it's a non issue. People are offended by fucking everything these days, and it makes me sick. You have to be careful of what you say, what you wear, hell you gotta be careful of how you look at someone anymore. This country is turning into a bunch of pansies. The more I think about it, the more I think I should go buy a Rebel Flag, not because I'm racist, but because to me it represents a big "fuck you" to all these assholes who get their panties in a knot over nothing. And I think that's what it means to a lot of people. So I'm sorry Bill for calling you an asshole.

Bill, are you sure it wasn't about the South trading and importing directly with other countries?  It was about free trade and a tarriff placed to subsidize the northern industrial cities and central gov't.  Basically the North was using the southern states to subsidize them.  In fact, in 1860, Abe Lincoln said he would not interfere with slavery in the southern states.  The North then adopted the free Slavery campaign to take a moral stance against the South, but the war was started over tarriffs and the South's desire to have free trade with other countries with out the north over taxing their exports/imports to industrialize the north and fund our Gov't.  With out the South the Gov't would have bankrupt.  The South wanted out because they felt mistreated and used, the North couldn't let them go. 


Here is the link that explains what I said written by an economist.

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Constitution_Issues/genesis_civil_war.htm

I agree with you absolutely about those being issues of the war.....but those are the "side bars" you talked about earlier.  The North didn't just all of a sudden take a free slavery campaign in 1860........Since the late 1700's there were movements and measures passed to make slavery illegal. 

The only way the South would have been able to have free trade with other countries is because of their slave labor.  That is what they fought to protect, the right to own slaves.  It all revolves around the South surviving on Slave labor.

As for Lincoln saying he would not interfere with slavery.....he said he could not end slavery in states that already had it due to the Corwin Amendment (No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State).  This was Congress's last attempt to stop the civil war from happening.  The south ignored it as they considered themselves a seperate country at this time.

It truly is amazing to think our country went to war with each other.  I mean, just imagine battles today happening  in fields  out in your back yard or entire cities being burned down like Atlanta.  And it really wasn't that long ago!  Either way, glad the slaves were freed!

Dude you wanna know what's freaky, there are still cannonballs lodged in buildings in Gettysburg.....like right in town.  I live about an hour and a half from there and everytime I drive through and see that, it's just like wow.  I didn't know this until a few years ago, but one of my very distant grandparents were among the first to die in the battle of Gettysburg..........they have a plaque honoring like the first 100 people to die in the battle and I have a not so common name, so I researched and found it to be in my immediate lineage.  But yeah, just 140 years ago, we were killing each other. 

One of the things my friends and I always debate upon is that in this day and age of "enlightment (sarcasm)" what it would actually take to divide the country again.  There are many things that came up like religion and social standing being the main ones, but it always makes for a good conversation.

The USA Today picked up on this story.

I wonder if really are closer than we really think?  Nevermind, we have a bunch of trial things going on now.  We have wackos that pose a threat to people, but not an all out war.

If u think its ok for black kids to run around with Malcolm X shirts, then u cant really be against people wearing the Rebel Flag.


The basic point all of u "ELITIST" are missing out on is, Its someones RIGHT to wear whatever the fuck they want to wear.

I love how people come on here and judge others with their elitist I am perfect rhetoric like u are such a great american cause u denounce a rebel flag.

People only are against the rebel flag because god forbid u are labeled a racist.

I see nothing wrong with the rebel flag as long as u arent out spreading hate and hurting people.

Its like everyone champions Abe Lincoln but he was a racist by today's standards as well.

Who here thinks the Civil War was about slavery only?

thats a complete fallacy.

The rebel flag today has nothing to do with hating black people or being a racist. Its about being against society and all the shit we are "SUPPOSE" to do.  Im tired of everyone dictating the way others should think and believe. that isnt a democracy.

Well, I'm from the north, and I'm just going to start waving this around:

(http://re3.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/m4/2900432165)


Personally, I think it's a travesty that those kids were banned from graduating, over that, after 4 yrs of hard work!  That's wrong. 

I have no doubt that the Confederate Flag is used, in many parts of the South (or other places) to represent a feeling or mind of prejudice and hatred.  Then, again, I think many people use it because they think it's cool-looking.  Not sure why those kids used it. 

Other than it being just a cool-looking symbol, I can't imagine why anyone would want to hold onto it, to this day, as a symbol of the South or anything it might represent, when it stood in it's place a couple hundred yrs ago. 

Actually, that's exactly what it is. Majority dictatorship.

In a free country people are welcome to their opinions.

Those who wave the flag with pride have theirs, and those who think they are ignorant morons hold theirs. Both are allowed under our Constitution.

If it's against a schools rules however, then the school has a right to hand out the punishment as they see fit. This isn't stripping away their rights any more than a nice restaurant booting somebody out for wearing a tanktop.

yeah if it was against school rules thats fine.

I am now rallying against people judging everyone for a rebel flag.

Axl use to wear a sweet black leather jacket witha  rebel flag on it. I dont think he is pro slavery or anti black person etc.

I think other people labeled the flag to mean this or that but I dont think even the confederacy started the flag as a way to be racist. it was just their own flag.

many probably do use the flag as a racism symbol but Im sure not everyone sees it that way. I dont view it that way. I view it as like an anarchy symbol. just something to be against the system or the norm.


I think the rebel flag looks cool depending on how its used.

Dude, you're definitely not understanding what we were discussing earlier.  Of course the flag of the Confederacy wasn't designed to represent racism, the reason racism is tied into it is because of the Confederacy's dependancy on slaves and how that's gone on even after the Civil War, to be used by groups like the KKK and just general redneck racist assholes in general.

No one was saying, "OH YOU CAN'T WEAR THE CONFEDERATE FLAG!!!!"  We were just discussing the meanings of it and how it has become associated with racism which, dude if you're denying......I can show you thousands of pictures of white power rallies where the flag is flying high.

(http://snarkster.com/images/2006/03/confederate-flag.jpg)

I was pretty much judging people who act as posers by claiming the rebel flag is a symbol of anarchy and going against "the machine".  At least be a real poser and buy a Che Gueverra shirt and beret.

As far as Axl.......he was wearing the jacket to compliment the song Civil War...nothing more, nothing less.  But if one wanted to argue, all one would have to do is pop in the old GNR Lies CD to track number 8!

The majority of people just think it's inappropriate because it causes insensitivites to people.  I for one, if I was black and was a descendant of slaves...would be quite peeved at someone openely wearing one, because it's in poor taste.  Just like I said earlier, if someone was to wear a nazi arm band and walk into a Wal-Mart.....people would be furious.  Even though the swastika has no meaning to racism....it is a symbol that has been associated with it.

I don't think they should have been banned for waving a silly flag. But I do think they should be beheaded for posing in this pic like that  :peace:

Exactly...........that picture just screams, "you sure do got a pretty mouth, boy."

And there is the most important part of the article.

If there has been a longstanding ban, and they broke it (it sounds like knowingly, if it was a "prank"), 'dems the breaks.  The school is within it's rights to make rules like this. Period.  End of story.

For those who say that the confederate flag has nothing to do with race and is just about sticking it to the Man, do any black people use that flag as their rebellion symbol of choice? 

School had the right.  Good for them for having some balls.  

They use the Malcolm X symbol.  I have also seen blacks at Nascar events hanging out with rednecks what sport the flag having a blast.  Some blacks aren't nearly as sensitive as whites.

Many black people don't like what Malcolm X stood for.  But they still might feel rebellious.  Except it probably wouldn't be a good idea to recommend to them a confederate flag to express their rebelliousness.  Why do you suppose that is? 

I'm assuming you mean good for the students for having some balls.

Having "balls" also means being willing to face any potential consequences....in the sense of it being some sort of act of protest, if that's what it was.  There's no problem with a little civil disobedience, within reason, so long as you're willing to pay the price.

If it was just some sort of "prank", I wouldn't call that having balls.  I'd call it being stupid.  High school kids, especially, have a propensity for doing things without thinking about the consequences.  I know I did, back when I was young and "immortal".  Part of growing up is learning that when you do something stupid, you likewise have to face the consequences.  Be it a suspension, a fender bender, the "walk of shame", or something much more serious.  I'd deem this as a hard slap on the wrist that might teach them a bit of a life lesson.

They broke the rules, now they have to face the punishment.  It's as simple as that.

No, I mean good for the school having a back bone and doing that they believe was right.

Gotcha!  Sorry I misunderstood.  And for "assuming".

 :peace:

The school has NEVER had a ban on the confederate flag. Not once in the four years I was attending this school, and not this year either. There has NEVER been anything about it in the student handbook/.

Ditto. Serves them right.

I don't know what you want anyone to say.....

If it wasn't a known rule, then the punishment, perhaps, outweighs what was done. 

If it was, the school was within their rights to do what they did.

If there was NO rule, I'd assume there would have been or will be a lawsuit, but keep in mind the rule wouldn't have to say "The Confederate flag is banned".  It could say something a lot more general, and still be applicable.  It could say something like "students are prohibited from displaying, wearing, or possessing anything, while on campus, conveying a message of hate, discrimination, or anything containing language or images that might be reasonably offensive to our other students". 

I wish I knew exactly happened.  Did the kids still graduate and just not walk?  This almost falls under the, "there are more important things to worry about" category.  From what I can tell, they didn't beat anyone up like those fucking cunts in that youtube video who beat up that girl.  Now that was awful.

Yes, but who do you think thought up these anti-discrimination policies? Probably a group of latte sipping elitists.

Yes, Ybor City.  That was my second trip to Tampa.  I went previously to see GNR a couple of years ago.  I really like Tampa. 

Very dumb...

Where is the freedom we had years ago?

Get real people, you can pay 3.80 for a gallon of gas, but you can't wave a confederate flag on school grounds...

that's messed up beyond repair

Tampa is easy living.

Next time give me a call and I'll give you a tour round town.

Ybor is about 15 from my casa.

This looks like an ad for "the future skinheads of America"

I don't mean to stereotype but if they wanted to convey a point they might have tried to look a bit more friendly?

In most instances in this country, school rules even supercede the law.

You really cannot take chances when students/children are involved so they tend to be a bit harsh in punishment.

These days when kids are going into schools and blowing their teachers and fellow students away because they were unhappy or depressed, can you really blame the school for inflicting the punishment they did?????????

What does one have to do with the other?


Another non-sequitur.

sometimes I wonder how much experience people on here have had with black people.

Its like they think every small thing will cause some huge uproar. everyone is so scared of being labeled a racist that they have to jump on and shun anything that could be construed as racist.


I dont think black people really care about someone having a rebel flag as long as they arent out screaming racial slurs etc.

things evolve in culture. the swatzika or however u spell it, wasnt always a symbol for nazi's or anti semitism but it is viewed that way now.

the Rebel flag started out being a sy mbol of the south's independence but now it has taken on a whole new meaning for people. Im sure some still view it as a racist symbol, but id guarantee most just view it as a symbol against the establishment.

Lots. 
...and the southern flag goes over about as well as a tv displaying continuously looped video of the white guy getting pulled out of his tractor trailer by an angry black mob and beaten during the LA riots.

It's not as bad as finding a noose, but it is just inappropriate.  Again, do we really want to go the "free speech" route and allow swastika-adorned children to school?  No. 

Hell, have all the southern states even apologized for the slavery years???  The Jim Crow years???  Oh yeah, that's right, many modern-day white southerners feel like, "I didn't put 'em into slavery, why should I apologize?"  Great logic.   ::)
(and no D, I don't think you feel that way, it is one of the leading arguments against formal apologies though.)   

Why the fuck should innocent people apologize for the atrocities of their ancestors?

Black people aren't exactly angles either. Slavery, torture, murder...they have an affinity too. We all do.

No, free speech is just that, free. People should be able to say and wear whatever they want. However, expect to get your ass kicked when you walk into Harlem with the flag. Natural justice.

Because guess what, you know all about the power of interest.  Money collects interest.  How much money were white families accumulating through generation after generation of slavery and Jim Crow?  Now, how much money did the black communities accrue??
Hmmm, something tells me it has just a teency bit to do with financial inequities between blacks and whites we see today...ya think?
Are there poor white folk out there?  Hell yeah!  They are the ones that get most pissed when blacks complain about past transgressions of whites, because these white folks' ancestors didn't succeed like other whites.

Here's the other thing...it's a symbolic apology!  It brings people together!  It's understanding.  I never said "black people are angels"...every race, religion, nationality, etc., has its good, bad, and ugly. 

Now, here in the United States, I must have had different history professors, blacks were enslaving, torturing, and murdering whites?  Interesting.  Tell me more!

By the way, your idea for "natural justice," seriously, just imagine that system (or lack thereof) in place.  300 million vigilantes...what fun that would be. 

 

Apart from the very top there aren't any inordinate amount of money stashed in white families. How much did your parents inherit? Your grandparents?

No, the only advantage of white families are tradition and stability. You're more prone to make something of your life if your parents did it, but if they were drunks and drug addicts...well, I'm sure you follow. There's no trust fund accompanying the average white kid.

It would be symbolic alright. Just like affirmative action brought more racism, an apology will just bring a sense of guilt and superiority from the 'white masters' coming to make amends. If anything we should be proud of our abolition of slavery, not treat them like babies that can't take care of themselves.

Yeah, we didn't just go over there and took them, they were mostly given to us by African leaders. Africans have as much of a slavery history as Europe and America. In fact, America is just a tit on the map when it comes slavery. The rest of the world were far worse in their treatment of human beings. It didn't matter if they were white or black, if they could work they took them.

I'm not proposing a vigilante system, I'm just saying although something is legal doesn't mean you won't end up paying for it. Like it's not illegal to fuck the wife of a bodybuilder when he walks in. Still, you'll probably end up getting punished.   

 

Will do.  We will definately have to hook up if GNR comes back to Tampa.  Or my home town.  No politcs allowed.  :)

I live in the heart of Brooklyn. Feel free to come over and wave a rebel flag in my neighbourhood, and then we'll get a good picture of how black people feel.

I don't get how this is a free speech issue. They weren't arrested, they didn't face any legal sanctions, they weren't even prevented from graduating. They were prevented from taking part in a ceremony - that's not a right, it's a privilege.

black people sold black people though............ thats the problem I have. everyone wants to blame the white guy but the black man isnt without fault either.


So explain once again how the confederate flag is anti black?   It just seems to me, people on here are mistakengly saying the civil war was all about slavery when it was not.

The confederate flag was the south's "American Flag" and u can view it two ways. U can view it as anti black *which i dont view it that way* or u can view it anti establishment. 

I tend to view it as antiestablishment.

I wouldnt personally wear a rebel flag or whatever, I agree they look rednecky etc BUT i think its wrong to automatically assume people who like it hate black people and chew tobacco etc.

I just feel everyone tries to apologize so hard to black people, that they dont hold the accountable for their own fuck ups and the fact they hold each other down now just as much if not more than the 'White Man"

21st century, there comes a time when u have to look in the mirror.

It's not, and that has been pointed out a few times already. It has nothing to do with free speech or "hypocrisy".

this thread has taken a turn from the original topic.

If its against school rules, then yeah they are within all their rights to do what they did.

We have now switched this to something completely different.

Its now about the rebel flag and what it symbolizes.


I've heard arguments about Lincoln and that maybe his freeing the slaves wasnt necessarily out of the goodness of his heart or because of moral beliefs but simply to cripple the south.

Civil War started April 12th 1861, Emancipation Proclamation didnt pass till Jan 1863 or so.....

Slavery was an issue, but Tarriffs etc were a huge issue as well and the south being Richer than the north and the jealousies and problems that rise with that sort of thing.

to me the confederate flag isnt anti black. I dont think the Confederacy sit around and said "Lets think up a flag to be against black people"

That was a flag symbolizing a break from the North and what the South considered to be unfair practice.

"to me the confederate flag isnt anti black."

...well it sure as hell isn't pro!   :hihi:

seriously, as a society, we sometimes have to be sensitive to perceptions.  whether white folks like it or not, a majority of african-americans perceive the southern flag as a representation of slavery.  My grandparents toiled for nothing as laborers for the German war machine.  If they rebelled, they along with my infant mom would be killed.  That swastika probably left a pretty bad taste in their mouths, as it does mine.  I don't think it should be flown, period.  Care to disagree?

btw, darn it, in the U.S.A., where we live, African-Americans were not buying and selling African-Americans as slaves.
So yeah, African-Americans were 100% victims.  The children of the slaves weren't even allowed to vote.  Do you think banks were lending money to blacks?  Do you think blacks were getting equal education??  Do you folks not see how a majority of the many problems faced by the black community today have been caused by centuries of sub-standard treatment on this continent?

By the way D, I'm no "apologist."  What I refuse to do however is close my eyes to the facts African-Americans don't start off on equal footing with whites in the game of life.  D, can you please explain why african-americans are given stiffer sentences for the same exact crimes compared to whites?  Can you explain to me why when the same crime is committed against a black person and a white person, on average the person who committed the crime against the black person gets a lighter sentence? 

 "21st century, there comes a time when u have to look in the mirror."  Yeah D, we all have to look in the mirror.  Nobody here is saying goodbye to personal responsibility.  Nobody's telling you to feel sorry for anybody.  What we can do as a society is acknowledge the horrible treatment african-americans have received throughout this nation's history and the road we still have to travel to get to equal opportunity.

"I dont think the Confederacy sit around and said "Lets think up a flag to be against black people."  They didn't have to D.  Their flag could have been a smiley-face emoticon and it still would have represented slavery almost 150 years later. 

Common sense should prevail with these kids.  Let them get their just punishment (whatever the school's policy is) and move on.  We'll just read about the next bunch of dumb-asses not allowed to attend their graduation ceremony...hopefully it'll be a group of obnoxious blacks blasting music laiden with the N-word to balance things out.
Yeah, that's a pet peeve of mine.   : ok:

Are you misunderstanding me? For the last year I've been talking about nothing but evil white men who control the world.

I'm talkin' about the average white person. He does not have any reason apologizing, ie. you, me and every other not bearing the name Rockefeller.

I'd say I know a thing or two about why non-whites are still being discriminated in what is popularly called the free world. Yes, wealthy white men are responsible. A select group basically runs the whole show. They share the same elitist perspective. They all have the money, hell they even print money. They spend it so they can control the education and science system, so they again can control the media, government and people. That's a long time ago.

Controlling the masses is easy, a fundamental part being racial stirrings. Since we're so naturally inclined, that part doesn't require much, other than unleashing our ignorance. 

That's all well and fine, but not really our topic at head.

I wasn't asking literally, so please, don't go personal. You can only enhance yourself in what you do, not in what you say.

The civil rights movement is a hijacked movement. Affirmative action does not help black people, quite on the contrary. While it rewards a minuscule few, it does nothing but further the sense of them being lesser humans to the not so fortunate, the ones living in drug infested neighborhoods, because they can't afford a 'white neighborhood'. Where the options are getting hooked on state imported crack, or wither away in a public 'school'. And for what? So they can work two shit jobs to pay the rent? No wonder so many turn to crime. That of course enhances our inherit view of them as something 'different', and the cycle just grows stronger. All along guided by the systems unwillingness or ability to enact effective and sensible measures.

I'm not excusing or downplaying anything. I merely pointed out that we all have an affinity for extreme behavior. There are no innocents, only equals. And until we start treating it that way, we will only continue to give the elite aid in the form of racial inequality.

This school had a ban on a fuckin' flag. "The flag is banned because it may violate anti-discrimination policies".
Once again they give the impression of black people being so fragile and helpless they need special protection.

And that's supposed to be the attitude in the school system? The place our children are shaped?

If some retards wants to be looked down upon, let them. Let them experience it for themselves. If anyone should feel offended by that they need a self esteem workout. A ban is just stupid, overprotective and probably the main reason this happened in the first place. Nothing motivates like forbidden fruit.




 

I said, "You of all people should know it's the ultra-rich who control the economy."  So you know I give you props on that!

btw, I didn't ask Joe Q. White Guy to apologize personally for shit.  Our government owes the apology...not only for slavery but for Jim Crow and the fucked-up policies beyond Jim Crow.

we do have a disagreement when it comes to "special protection."  Yes, minorities do require special protection when it's clear as the sky is blue there are on-going inequities in hiring, renting, lending, criminal justice arenas, etc., etc. 

the attitude of the school system is to provide a safe environment which fosters academic growth.  a kid in the inner-city should be receiving just as good an education as the kid in the wealthy 'burbs.  Call me crazy, but I believe in equal opportunity. 

I cant argue with the stiffer penalties because Id have to see factual numbers that says that it is so. maybe its a state to state thing?

Its not like most people in prison black or white dont deserve to be there.

I just have a different way of  thinking than most of u on here.

Blacks sold blacks.

They came to the USA and were slaves which was horrible but ask yourself, would u rather be in the United States in the year 2008 or over in a Civil War, Genocidal, Aids infested, starving Africa?

The Confederate Flag wasnt intended for a racist symbol. just because the KKK and other ignorant orgs adopted it, doesnt mean that was what it was intended for.

The South were tired of unfair taxes and the political dominance of the Northern states. So they broke away. they adopted their own flag that had nothing to do with anti black. It was just their countries flag. they were for slavery but the flag wasnt intended as a symbol for that. It was just a new country's flag.

I look at jewish People and I look at black people. both historically have had it damn rough. One group band together and rose above, the other cops out and allows the attrocities of a yesterday hold them back today. Using things your ancestors went through as a crutch isnt going to get anything done.  Gangs, rap music, the way blacks look down on successful blacks. a lot of times they create their own hell.

D, maybe you'll read this and consider my points...maybe not.  You'd have to agree we are shaped by the environments we grow up around...



D, I know you aren't a racist.  Please don't think I'm implying that.  I do think you are influenced by your environment, as we all are.  All I ask is that you look at these issues with an open mind.
  That said, I will agree with you that some of the Great Society policies have unwittingly resulted in a group of folks at the bottom with less drive.  Social welfare systems need to be a safety net, not a place to rest.  How do we get there?  Tough question, but if we meet somewhere in the middle, I'm sure we'll make progress. 

Bullshit, it represents The right of man, the abolition of tyranny(want to ague?), mans right to decide his own destiny(not the destiny of some fucking tyrant in Washington), and Constitutional freedom.

Without debating the illegal, immoral, and and unjust war that that those fascists(radical Republicans) brought to the American people read the "Articles", and the Constitution.

 ... and quiet frankly, I take offence at the suggestion that my relations fought for anything other than noble causes.

AXL4PREZ

I dont disagree with anything u stated. Im not trying to pretend that the white person is innocent and has no hand in holding down other races.


BUT I think these days, black people have an equal share in holding themselves down and l don't see anyone forcing them to take any personal responsibility. Your son deals drugs cause his mom dealt drugs and his dad is who knows where.......

thats the white man's fault how?

I just dont understand that is all I am saying.  U mean to tell me something that happened a century ago has this much influence still?

i just dont think so.

I think people, as long as there are schools, have just a good a chance as the next of getting out and doing something with their lives.

This is the part I am talking about:
I know people in my small ass shitty town that would feel "unblack" or less a "black Person" if they made great grades, joined the band, were in academic clubs etc. they were ridiculed, bullied and put down by other black people who were "Ghetto" and cool and Gangsta and hard. 

Its like the black kids who wanted to do good were surrounded by so much negativity from their own peers, they would end up doing bad to "fit In"

that is in no way a white person's fault.

Axl4Prez2004 - you need to have another look at your history books. Slaves were captured in raids by other blacks, then transported to the coastal regions by blacks, and sold at market by blacks. They were then transported to ships run by whites, and taken over the Atlantic. Most were bought by Portuguese and taken to Brazil, while we're on the subject. There had been a thriving slave trade, with slaves taken from Africa to Islamic countries, for about a thousand years before the Transatlantic slave trade began and, of course, many Africans had slaves themselves. Slavery was not new in Africa when the white man came to a few coastal areas to collect slaves. The slave trade, scholars agree, had actually very little impact on Africa, with about 10 million taken over the Atlantic over a 450 year period.

If you want to check it yourself, there is a very nice chapter on this in McKay et al's A History of World Societies.

Slavery is an unpleasant aspect of history, but the fact that it has been abolished (although it still occurs in some places, albeit under a different guise) says a lot about our social development.

 ... and the vast majority were sold in NYC

For those that think the South was some kind of evil empire, I have to ask the question, when did NY, or England for that matter, make the trafficking in slaves illegal?

I find it telling that no one has defended the tyrant Lincoln.

Britain banned the trafficking of slaves in 1807, with the ban coming into effect the following year. Slavery itself was abolished in 1833.

Don't know off the top of my head about US slavery.

For some reason 1836 comes to mind, but might be mistaken.


 ... and even if it is mistaken, the money whores in NYC, and Washington made their money until the 13th Amendment was ratified, and then the Carpet Baggers preyed on the South(fucking scum).

I never understood why people bring this up. It's totally irrelevant.

It in no way erases what we did, nor does it minimize it.

It was to respond to this:


just to make sure that we all understand that it wasn't white men invading Africa, stealing people and selling them into slavery.


What we did? We? I never did anything.

The vast majority of southern whites did not own slaves. 90% of the slaves were owned by 5% of the population.

JimbobTTD, thanks for the head's up...I've got plenty o' books myself.  ;)  I did have to point out this little diddy of yours is 100% Grade A bullshit..."The slave trade, scholars agree, had actually very little impact on Africa, with about 10 million taken over the Atlantic over a 450 year period."

Blaming Africans for the slave trade would be akin to blaming the southeast asians for its rampant child exploitation.  "We wouldn't have had sex with their kids if their parents didn't bring them to us!"  Yes, nobody's going to debate with you the fact there were middlemen that assisted in the gathering of slaves...but honestly, what choice did these people have?  You make it sound like peace-loving Europeans showed up on the shores of Africa and found stores selling slaves, "Get your slaves here!  Get your black, strong slaves here!" like they were at a baseball game or something selling peanuts and ice cold beer. 

Then to boot, Europeans carved up Africa, raped it for its resources, and arbitrarily divided it into nations that never had a chance to succeed. 


btw, Colonel Mosby, to think that "tyrant" Abraham Lincoln forced the South to end slavery, what a monster!  To think he did everything within his means to keep this nation unified...what a horrible guy. 

"The vast majority of southern whites did not own slaves. 90% of the slaves were owned by 5% of the population."
-0% of whites were owned by blacks.  ;)  Keep flying those stars and bars proudly Colonel!  ::)

Not blaming Africans for the slave trade. Just pointing out that a fair deal of blood is on their hands too. There was a demand, and certain entrepreneurs dealt with supply. These entrepreneurs were black Africans.

And no, it's not bullshit. The overall effects of the transatlantic slave trade on Africa were minimal. The bit about scholars agreeing is a pretty much direct quote from that McKay book, which is seen as being so good that it is even used outside the US in universities...like the one I attended to get...oh dear!...my history degree!!!

D, we agree more than we disagree.  If I were in charge, the scum of the scum, black, white, purple, and green, all of 'em would be doing hard time.  I'd go balls-out on all these clowns.  Violent criminals would never be heard from again, period.
Children would not be allowed to conceive children in my society, sorry, call me a tyrant all ya want, it aint fair to the child of the child.  
I really believe technology will solve a lot of this crap in the future.  Conception of humans is not "God-guided" it is like everything, people-guided.  People are either responsible or irresponsible.  ...how the heck did I get here from the Confederate flag?  sorry.  :-[
long story short, I too have seen the bad-ass black crap first-hand.  There is a self-defeating component at work in many black communities.  We just have to remember to get just as pissed when we see the assholes on the other side.  Get pissed when the black dudes are using the n-word...I do.  Get even more pissed when you see a-holes leaving nooses in black co-worker's cubicles.  Get more pissed when you see the poor conditions of inner-city schools.  Get more pissed when you see the absence of after-school programs in the worst areas...some will tell you, "why should my tax money go to areas where people don't work?"  I'll tell you why, you have a choice.  We can either put the money into prisons and rehab clinics, or we can save money by dealing with the problems before they get out of hand.  

PS  Jimbobttd, yes, we both have degrees.  Wonderful.  We also have a disagreement here...just sayin'.  Instead of "bullshit," I should have said I respectfully disagree.  For that I apologize.  :peace:  Those "entrepreneurs" you speak of were staring down the barrels of guns and cannons, weapons those folks did not have yet. 

It sucks what happened to blacks in this Country.  But who cares about an apology.  I'm sure they want to see progress toward equality more than get a stupid apology.  And to that end the USA is succeeding rapidly.  The progress on this issue in the last 40 years alone has been incredible.  At that same rate, I bet we'd be beyond all this in another 40 years.  Accentuate the positive dude. 

I issue my apology to all black right here and right now.  I am sorry that your ancestors had to endure slavery and a slew of other misjustices.  Moving on to continued progress.

I disagree with their bringing the flag to school, but if they complied with the teachers who told them to remove them, then I can't justify barring them from graduation. It seems to harsh for an unintentional breaking of a rule that they quickly righted once they could.

I don't like seeing that flag. It represents a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but I prefer nationalism to sectionalism anyways, and adding that the flag can be seen as hateful, what's the point? Free expression is fine, but why would you display something that others will find so offensive? It's not like protesting with controversial images, where you're hoping something will get done...

On the Civil War debate in here, the South lost the spirit of the Constitution and the all-important American tradition of compromise. The idea that you can't always have what you want, because others deserve a voice too. The South wanted the whole country devoted to its needs - the 3/5 Compromise is a prime example - either slaves are property and they don't affect representation in Congress and you pay taxes on them, or they're people and you can't own them. It can't be both ways. And it got worse with fucking Calhoun and his nullification shit. If Lincoln's elected, as he was, it's because the American people chose him. It wasn't a fraudulent election, it was who most people wanted for President. You can't throw a hissy-fit and storm out of the Union every time you lose. Especially considering the Supreme Court and the Senate were balanced, even slanted to the South in the case of the Court.

"We" as a country. Let's not play disingenuous here please.

thanks axl4prez


another thing u pointed out i really hate is how black people going around calling each other the N word like its cool, when they have no idea how ignorant or how bad it makes them look.


Prince has a song where he calls abraham lincoln a racist, because evidently Lincoln wasnt so "honest" in his intentions.

Some would say, that Lincoln freed the slaves just to hurt the south and he didnt necessarily view them as human beings. Also, black contributions to the North really aided in key Union victories.

So was Lincoln this great humanatarian or did he do things for personal gain?

Seems like he would've freed the slaves BEFORE the Civil War and wouldnt have waited 2 years to do so when the Confederate army was giving the Union army all they could handle.

I'm not in or from the same country as you. Do not make assumptions that everyone has the same idea what "we" means.

I am white, yet my Italian relatives didn't land in the US till the early 1900's.  Should we direct this conversation to only Blue Blood whites from the UK?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN8EMmML-es

McCain takes both sides of the issue  : ok:

Ahhh so the answer comes clean.......you got your history lesson from Prince.  Nuff said.

Lincoln's stance on slavery was that he was against.......HOWEVER he once said that if it would take not freeing the slaves to keep the union together, he would whatever it took to keep America united, but he KNEW that abolishing slavery was the right thing to do.  Lincoln was far from this monster against the south that you and "Prince" make him out to be.  Lincoln wanted what was best for this country even though he knew and felt slavery had to be abolished.  It was when Lincoln's nomination for President was pretty much set in stone that the Southern states started leaving the Union.  Lincoln couldn't have done shit to abolish slavery because the South basically ignored everything the North did and they decided to start the war.

You should not make assumptions that you were included in "we" to begin with.

Next time you are in Ybor, give me a call too.

I'll scare the shit out of you.

He's not kidding ^

Great! Glad not to be lumped in with the likes of you. That's a relief!

Instead of nutting up and admitting your assumption was wrong, you just insult me.

LOL, you're much more American than you think.

Instead of admitting that what you wrote was ambiguous, you try and be a smartarse. Then, instead of letting it go, you try and be a smartarse again.

See? We could play this game forever. And yes, by "we" I mean the two of us.

It wasn't ambiguous, it was "we" meaning America as a whole, which I explained to you next, and that should have been the end of it. Instead you proceeded to play semantics, and make childish insults.

Why has every other immigrant to the USA adapted well from Spanish, to Mexicans, to Italians, to Germans, to Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Jewish, Muslim's from Middle East and most came after the slaves, and most couldn't speak English, and most were discriminated against, yet they for the most part have adapted well and are very fine financially.  But why does it seem like only blacks still seem to be the ones with all these social and financial issues?  Is it the affirmative action?  Welfare?  Public Housing?  Why are we still talking slavery and using it as an excuse with people from all over the world came here with less skill, less money, and less communication and have surpassed so many african americans in such a short time.  Does the USA keep blacks down?  Obviously the exceptions are there like Barack, MJ, Collin Powell, Condi Rice, MLK, Football and Bball players and millions of others.  

My point is, maybe its time we stop making excuses for failures and start pointing to reasons why people should succeed instead of showing reasons why they are failing.  If any of you saw the final Rocky, he gives a speach to his son that talks about self accountability and not blaming other people for your problems.  I think that is where we are today.

Hasn't Rocky done enough already?  He singlehandedly ended the Cold War with his "If I can change and you can change, then everybody can change" speech -- and now you expect him to solve the problems of race in our country.  Give the guy a break.

Seriously, to compare to those groups of immigrants minimizes the effects of centuries of slavery and institutional racism. 

And, by the way, Rocky's son was just a whiner who couldn't find himself in his larger-than-life dad's shadow.  He truly had nobody to blame but himself.  That's not always the case.

 :rofl: :rofl: I love Rocky.  If all these immigrants that came over in the early 1900's for their families with no money and not able to speak english, the blacks can do it too.  I think the welfare system is partially to blame here.

You explained next...because it wasn't clear the first time. I'm letting this one go. Only idiots argue with idiots.

 :rofl:  Ahaha!  Steele, you still got it!   :rofl:  I love that Rocky speech! 
Here's another line for those here who find the plight of African-Americans..."Some men...you just can't reach..." 
We could explain until we are blue in the face how racism has helped crush the advancement of African-Americans...but some folks just don't get it.  Nobody is saying there isn't an element of personal responsibility absent in some groups of struggling African-Americans, but that's not the whole picture.  To say blacks should have blended in like all the other immigrant groups is laughable and really does show a lack of knowledge of the black experience in this country. 

 

This is coming from white man.  I was just saying, blacks have been here a long time and were mistreated a long time.  Black in England, France and other European countries seem to be doing fine.  Did the US help create a culture with the welfare system and hand outs and projects that creates a sense of entitlement?  Is it only blacks in America that are "oppressed".  Wasn't it the mayor of New Orleans that said its the white man's fault for all this?  My point is, fuck the excuses and stop blaming slavery.  My black friends don't want that crutch anymore.  They just want to be viewed as the same and treated as the same.  You guys crack me up.  Bust Ass, Adapt, and Overcome.  You guys are a bunch of whiney bitches some times.  I love the dialogue.  Most blacks would disagree with some of you white guys on how They feel.

I love these kinds of arguments...

It is retarded.  I agree.  Moving on.

hmmm...not so sure you can back that up.

Smoking Guns, the only part of your theory I don't understand involves the blame you place on Great Society programs. 

You said, "Did the US help create a culture with the welfare system and hand outs and projects that creates a sense of entitlement?"  Obviously it was a rhetorical question because that's what you believe...but when you say it made things "worse" that implies before these programs things were "better."  Are you kidding me?  Do you honestly think African-Americans would be where they are today (still progress to be made) without the Civil Rights Act and Federal intervention???  I love the old states' rights arguments..."we don't need no federal gubbment comin' on in here tellin us what's raght n wrong!"   Umm.....yeah, ya do.  ;)

Well, lets discuss this.  I was asking seriously.  Prior to all these acts, black kids had dad's at home.  After, mom's got more money for each kid they had and incentive to stay married declined.  With less supervision, kids find drugs and become addicts or join gangs looking for father figures.  I think some of the gov't programs led to more broken homes than before.  History proves that children with dad's tend to turn out better as a whole than kids with out dad's.

Also I am saying its not the US fault that perhaps some people didn't come along as well.  I was trying to say, how can you blame the US Gov't?  They did try.  There were some problems they didn't see coming.

Smoking Guns, there's also a difference between welfare reform and program termination due to lack of funding...
that's what I'm talkin 'bout homey.   ;D

 

Nice strawman!!!

If the the tyrant hadn't got his "just due"(yeah, I think Booth is a national heroe), he would be looked upon as that turd Bush.


New York(Yankee) Racist.

You're calling a banker puppet a national hero? Wow, just wow!

Lincoln might be a tyrant in modern eyes, but they didn't kill him for fuckin' with the people. It's the other way, always is.

You think that JWB was a banker puppet. ::)

The man gave his life for what he believed.

He can't. There's virtually not a single ethnic European driving taxis and cleaning toilets anymore. That's reserved for 'the new class'.

I don't think. I know. Willingly, or unwillingly.

Lincoln was about to fuck them in the ass with his Amnesty and Reconstruction act, not to mention taking their fiat printing power from them.

"His" amnesty was contingent upon July of '63; and reconstruction was years after.

Let us hear some of the Yankees debate that "Proclamation?

Years after being key.

And you conveniently ignore the fiat argument.

I didn't think that I ignored any fiat ...

Thus always to tyrants!!!

Amen Colonel.

Gawd, has nothing to do with what is right ...






















 .... or Constitutional!!!

sic siempre tyranus

Amon ain't gawd, he's just man gawd. And you can bet your ass he's got something to say about what's right, and the constitution!

I don't believe in gawd ... but I think that I smoked some of his shit!

Why did he wait 2 years after the Civil war started to abolish slavery?

dont u view as more of a strategic thing instead of a moral one?

If he was so against it, why not do it when the Civil War started?

I tell u why........

Lincoln and the North thought the uprising from the south would only last a very short time and things would go back to normal. he didnt want to end slavery cause Im sure the North enjoyed all that big money they got taxing the south seeing as the north were nowhere near as financially secure as the south.

once the war became overwhelming and the north realized the south had a great chance of winning, lincoln pulled a bold move freeing the slaves thus weakening the south financially AND bolstering the Union army.


So yeah, im sure lincoln *who owned slaves if Im not mistaken* was against slavery to a degree OR maybe, history has just written a more favorable story for Lincoln when in reality, he did what he had to do for the benefit of the North and his presidency.

Lincoln wasnt exactly into freeing the slaves and having them be equals either. blacks counted for half a person.

Lincoln is put on a pedestal and yeah he did free slaves which was a great thing, but lets not act like it was strictly for moral reasons cause it wasnt.


its like the media today.

I like Barrack Obama, I am going to vote for him and I pray he wins BUT

hillary clinton got absolutely crucified in the media. I feel she was really treated unfair and Obama got pretty  much a free ride from the national media. if hillary had attended a couple churches that were racist against black people, people wouldve labeled her a klanswoman. her political career wouldve disintegrated.

obama though, no one even bats an eyelash at the fact that his reverend was a hate filled bigot. no one even cared really.

I feel that white america are so afraid of being labeled a "racist" or "bigot' that they walk on egg shells with Obama and dont criticize or dig for shit the way they normally do.

We will see with the election. everyone is waiting for the swiftboat Obama attack but I honestly think he will get a free ride from the mainstream media for fear of looking like hater mongers.

Dude think about it..........if Lincoln had abolished slavery as soon as all the states started leaving the Union right as he was becoming president.......what would that have done?  Absolutely nothing, the Southern states were already ignoring any law of the constitution that they felt like ignoring.  Lincoln had a fucking country that was dividing on his hands.....he was on pins and needles trying to keep the country together.
As far as Lincoln owning slaves........history will tell you that it was Lincoln's wife (Mary Todd) who's family owned slaves.  Not Lincoln himself......there is absolutely no proof that Lincoln himself owned slaves.  Other than in some conspiracy theorist's book, which I will not accept as proof.....you will not find other wise.

Now onto your Barack Obama opinions............are you fucking serious that he got it easy as pie by the media?  Do you remember when rumors came abound when he was first going for the democratic bid?  The rumors that Barack is a muslim?  The constant and intentional misspelling of Obama to "Osama"?   I can honestly and this is in my own opinion, but I will back it up 100%.........can ask any of the ignorant population of Central Pennsylvania where I live..."Is Barack Obama a muslim" and I guaran-damn-tee that the overwhelming majority of answers will be "yes."
As far as his reverend and those idiotic comments, I've never seen or read one interview where Barack has supported those views or made such comments.  If anything the reverend was using his stance with Barack to slide in his own agenda.  Barack did the right thing by distancing himself from that idiot.  And either way it was far from ignored........that event dominated the media when it came out. 

Bill, I think D is referring to the lovefest NBC, MSNBC, and CBS had with Obama in favor over Clinton.

Lovefest? Like the 24/7 reporting over his preacher? That "lovefest"?

 ::)

Fox News isn't a "democrat" station like the others I listed.  The liberal media are the ones that blasted Clinton, especially your boy Olbermann.  Fox was the most fair to Hillary actually.  CNN seemed the most fair to Obama and Clinton respectively.

Smoking Guns, if you can't see that Fox News and the Right-wingers were bending over backwards to try and have Hillary be the Democratic nominee, you have to be smoking something.   

Here's the deal with the "liberal" media (in quotes because I disagree with your label).  The networks highlighted the positives on whichever candidate was trailing in the polls while "asking more questions of" and expressing concern over the moves of the front-runner.  This was true for the entire Democratic campaign.  It was more about ratings than it was objective journalism...(which btw, if you want objective news coverage, go to C-Span and PBS)...compare all that with Fox News that is virtually a mouthpiece for the Republican Party, the term "rusty trombone" comes to mind there.   : ok:

Bingo.

Do you guys say this stuff over and over and over to convince us or to convince yourself?

It was all about ratings

Good grief. You live in a whole different reality I guess.

Oh really, and just when did the southern armies invade the North. Your statement is a tad bit disingenuous. It was the North that invaded the South.

April 12, 1861 at Ft. Sumpter, South Carolina........they didn't "invade" the North, they invaded a military base and seized it for the South, thus starting the Civil War.

And just to clarify for you new-age Confederate yokels......sure the fort was in South Carolina.....however it was a federal property owned by the US Government.

Bullshit! South Carolina was a sovereignty unto itself.

We feel that our cause is just and holy; we protest solemnly in the face of mankind that we desire peace at any sacrifice save that of honour and independence; we ask no conquest, no aggrandizement, no concession of any kind from the States with which we were lately confederated; all we ask is to be let alone; that those who never held power over us shall not now attempt our subjugation by arms.

'President Jefferson Davis - 29 April 1861'

So now it has come to name calling. Trust me, you don't want to go there. In the South, there are a litany of derogatives used to describe northerners.

Rather than recite the propaganda that you learned in school, educate yourself.

The idiom to the victors go the spoils could not be more appropriate. The victors also write the history books.

^^^^

I think you two should get a room  : ok:

 :rofl:  Educate myself to what?  Your skewed version of American History?  I'd rather stick to what really happened.  And as far as victory...what the hell are you talking about?  I'm not running around jumping for joy that the North won......hell it was 140+ years ago.  I think the initial news of the victory might have worn a tad bit off now.  But yeah those spoils are something else eh?  Freedom for slaves and a united country.  Damn them anyhow!!!  Maybe you can convince the people of Alabama to arm their trailers and grab their peashooters and ride proclaiming, "The South Will Rise Again".......eh but they're probably too busy banging their cousins and listening to Kid Rock or watching Larry The Cable Guy.

I always wondered if they intended to revert back to confederate currency?

Enough of the South Bashing. 

Who are you? The PC thought police?

That isn't South Bashing anyway.

This is: How do you know the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

A: Because if it was invented anywhere else it would be called a teethbrush.

What does a Daughter say to her Father in Mississippi?

A: "Not so hard Dad, you're squishin' my Winstons."

HAHAHAHAH YES!  Now that my friend is a good one.


By the way, did you hear about the new law they passed in Alabama?

Apparently now when you get a divorce, you're still brother and sister!!!

hahaha, that thar is a nice one Cletus!

To the facts pertaining to the conflict, rather than repeating the lies that you picked up in school, or through the media. Prove to me where my version of history is skewed. I learned the same shit you did, but I chose to look a little deeper.
 


I think that you know very little about the War Of Northern Aggression.

Most modern scholars agree that the southern states were within their legal right to voluntarily withdraw from the union that they voluntarily entered.


 The idiom "to the victor go the spoils", it is an old addage. I was mearly commenting that the victors also write the history books.


 Slavery wasn't an issue when the war began. That is more propaganda from the liars in the North, that started the conflict

In July 1861, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a resolution, by a nearly unanimous vote, that affirmed that the North was not waging the war to overthrow slavery but to preserve the Union (Klingaman, Abraham Lincoln and the Road to Emancipation, pp. 66-70).

. . . in 1861 the North was fighting for the restoration of a slaveholding Union. In his July 4 message to Congress, Lincoln reiterated the inaugural pledge that he had "no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with slavery in the States where it exists." (Ordeal By Fire, p. 265)


Your bigoted response is an indication of the weakness of your argument. I sure there are a few members of this forum that are from Alabama. I know that as a southerner, I take offense at your characterizations.

If want to learn something about slavery and the war, read this:
http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/chamberlain.htm

There are many web sites, and books that make the case that the South was right in it's attempt at freedom. Using your failed logic, the US had no right to independence.

What is with the Alabama bashing?  Mississippi is the worst.

I am talking National Media

he has had it a little tough as all candidates do but compared to Hillary he was treated like the 2nd coming.

It took a racist hate spewing preacher and still he wasnt attacked that negatively. I didnt hear anyone asking why it took that stuff to go public for him to quit.

then a second church he was a member of did the same thing?

But u dont hear it in the same negative tone u hear stuff. hell, Hillary's pant suits got more negative publicity than Obama.



Im just stating, if Obama were white, his political career would've been destroyed with that racist preacher stuff. U let a white candidate have a friend in the KKK and he is DONE.

U let a white candidate have a preacher that yells the N word and talks about blacks and that candidate is DONE

Obama gets a pass on a lot of stuff because the MEDIA are afraid of being labeled racist.

That is something u dont recover from and they are walking a thin line.

Sure he gets 'Some" negative but no where in the same stratosphere as Hillary. Its like they couldnt criticize Obama so they poured it all on Hillary.

You make some good points.  Just like some white people are voting for Obama because he is black and feel if they don't like him they too would be labeled a racist.  HAHAHAHA  Kidding.

Interesting read.  Didn't care for his comments about how if the South was left alone to secede, today they'd be free to have Bible readings in public schools, post the 10 Commandments, maintain anti-sodomy laws and wear white hoods in public (OK, I made that last one up).  But it's probably a fair point to say that war would not have been avoided even if the Southern states that seceded agreed to abolish slavery -- though, what was the likelihood of that happening?  And would they have seceded if slavery was not an issue?

I think the South still gets discriminated against just like the SEC does in Football.  Everyone knows the the SEC is the best college football conference in the nation, but they also know over 135 years ago those states had slaves.  Seems like the media hates to admit when the best is from the SEC.  Its crazy actually.  Maybe there is a relationship.

It's a conspiracy against whites!

Even I have to call bullshit on that one. ^

That is one man's speculation, and it has nothing to do with the points he mentions. All of the arguments for southern independence have been around since before the war.

Slavery was not an issue until 1863, and then it was used only as an instrument to punish the states that had seceded, but were not under occupation.

If the tyrant Lincoln really gave a damn about abolition, he would have included all slaves in his Emancipation Proclamation. That instrument was nothing more than a means to encourage slave insurrection, in an effort to create mayhem, and death upon the civilian population of the South

Too, had Booth not dispatched that disgusting man, he would've been remembered for his vile tyranny imposed on all Americans(northern citizens inclusive).

Trying to avoid el strawman, but you didn't answer the question directly. So let me ask again -- if slavery was not an issue until 1863 are you therefore saying that they would have seceded even if the abolition of slavery was not a concern?  And what was the likelihood of the South abolishing slavery on its own?

Well, it is a strawman. Abolition was not a concern at the outset of the conflict.

Of course, the south would have ended slavery at some point. It was the southern states that tried, in vain, to prohibit the slave trade. Most people aren't aware that it was northern merchants and shipping companies that made money on the trade,and they vehemently opposed any restriction of their business.

Virginia was the first state to prohibit the introduction of slaves into it's territory.

The Confederate Congress was the first body to try and attempt the abolition of slavery, though it was defeated.

Here is a scholarly thesis that looks at the legality of secession:

AN ANALYSIS OF PRESIDENT LINCOLN'S LEGAL ARGUMENTS AGAINST SECESSION

by James Ostrowski*

Paper delivered at the first-ever academic conference on secession--"Secession, State, and Economy", sponsored by the Mises Institute, Auburn, Alabama, held at the College of Charleston, Charleston, South Carolina, April 7-9, 1995. (http://www.apollo3.com/~jameso/secession.html)

This is interesting to say the least.  I have never heard anyone who had a huge problem with Lincoln.  As a matter of fact, he is widely considered the greatest president of all time.  The USA is as great a place as it is today because he decided to fight for the union and won.  We are just not a world power divided.  The end justifies any means or reasons given up front.  The man is a fucking hero.  

I hate stero types, but you definately fall into one my friend.  The typical southern who thinks the war is still being fought.  Sometime you just need to be humble in defeat.

Still torching those strawmen I see. I don't think anyone thinks the war is still being fought. Some of recognize the illegality of the North's aggression.

Only in the North is that tyrant Lincoln revered. He was a military despot ... nothing more. Dig a little deeper, and you will see his brutal ways.

He won the election, but only received 40% of the electorate.

He employed much of the same tactics as Bush, but he used them on Americans. Both North,and South.

As a child growing up, I was told of the horrors that Union armies inflicted upon my relatives, and I tell my kids those same stories. It is repeated countless times all throughout the South.

I really can't blame Northerners for wanting to forget the murder and rape they inflicted upon the Southern people.

If slavery was not a concern at the outset of the conflict, why did they secede?

Whether they had a right to secede is one thing, but I'm just skeptical about their motives for seceding.  I find it hard to believe that it had more to do with tariffs and what not rather than slavery.  Especially considering the "Cornerstone Speech" made in 1861 by Alexander H. Stephens, the Vice President of the CSA: 

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documentprint=76

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery?subordination to the superior race?is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."   

That is how all white people thought then. Even the abolitionists didn't harbor thoughts of equality.

People who quote Stevens rarely mention that Lincoln shared his views on racism.

. . . anything that argues me into . . . [the] idea of perfect social and political equality with the negro is but a specious and fantastic arrangement of words, by which a man can prove a horse chestnut to be a chestnut horse. . . . I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which in my judgment will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong, having the superior position. (Abraham Lincoln: Speeches and Writings 1832-1858, New York: The Library of America, 1989, edited by Don Fehrenbacher, pp. 511-512)

and

I will say, then, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way, the social and political equality of the white and black races; that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters of the free negroes, or jurors, or qualifying them to hold office, or having them to marry white people. I will say in addition, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which, I suppose, will forever forbid the two races living together upon terms of social and political equality, and inasmuch as they cannot so live, that while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, that I as much as any other man am in favor of the superior position being assigned to the white man. (Abraham Lincoln: Speeches and Writings 1832-1858, p. 751)

Further

Douglas in the 4th debate:

 say to you in all frankness, gentlemen, that in my opinion a negro is not a citizen, cannot be, and ought not to be, under the constitution of the United States. . . . I say that this government was established on the white basis. It was made by white men, for the benefit of white men and their posterity forever, and never should be administered by any except white men. (Fourth Lincoln-Douglas Debate: Douglas' Reply, in Abraham Lincoln: Speeches and Writings 1832-1858, p. 673)

Lincoln's response:

"in point of mere fact, I think so too" (The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Volume 2, edited by Roy P. Basler, Rutgers, 1955, p. 281, as quoted in Bennett, Forced Into Glory, p. 306)

You guys still whining about some boys waving a silly flag?

If you believe in freedom of expression, you will not forbid anyone to fly any flag, including  this one which makes you look like a trailer trash hill billy  : ok:

But I still think these boys should be beheaded with a short rusty knife for posing like that in the picture  :peace:

Maybe to those unfamiliar with southern culture. I don't fly the Southern Cross anymore because of it's corruption by some bigots. However, I proudly display the Stars and Bars.

Stupid question.  Is stars and bars in your sig and southern cross the confederate flag?

I will say this just as I left my computer yesterday, not 10 minutes later, I see 3 rednecks in their 1995 Z71 towing a trailer with a dune buggy covered in mud and a dirt bike.  On the rear window, a huge Rebel Flag (Confederate).  While at a traffic lite, they littered a McDonalds bag right into the road.  Now, I live in Alabama, I am familiar with Southern Culture and "country" people.  This had neither to do either.  These where white trash redneck wannabees that needed a fucking beat down.

An acceptable manner to show the flag?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWUOmk7wO0

^That is it. The Stars and Bars was the first flag of the Confederacy. In 63, the flag was changed to a white field with the Southern Cross in the canton. The final flag was adopted in 65. It was similar the 2nd, but it had a red stripe on the edge.

The flag that most associate as the confederate flag was really the flag of the military.

Race is just too touchy of a topic. People have their assholes puckered tight when the subject arises. I dont care to talk race with anyone of any race.

I think if more could do so, everyone would understand one another better and get a long better.


Lincoln is remembered as a great man and he was a good man. I think he had some good intentions although history HAS put him on a pedestal he doesnt deserve. He is the original Kurt Cobain. He got finished with a war, freed the slaves and was assassinated so anyone who dies that way get kind of a free pass on shit they did wrong because people dont want to seem disrespectful.

I am in South carolina right now and the stars and bars are sold and are displayed everywhere.

Colonel Mosby is dead on though. history books are written by the winners so its gonna be in a more favorable light in their direction. that is just human nature.

Great, that clears a lot up. Thanks.

?Most Southern soldiers viewed the driving issue to be sovereignty rather than slavery,? he said. ?Love of the Union was palpably stronger in the South than in the North before the war ? just as overt patriotism is today ? but it was tempered by a strong belief that state sovereignty existed prior to the Constitution and that it had never been surrendered.?

?The venerable Robert E. Lee has taken some vicious hits, as dishonest or misinformed advocates among political interest groups and in academia attempt to twist yesterday?s America into a fantasy that might better service the political issues of today,? he wrote. ?The greatest disservice on this count has been the attempt by these revisionist politicians and academics to defame the entire Confederate Army in a move that can only be termed the Nazification of the Confederacy.?

Few Southerners were slaveholders and that the war was fought over state sovereignty, which in the eyes of many at the time included the right to secede from the national government.

?The states that had joined the Union after the Revolution considered themselves independent political entities, much like the countries of Europe do today. The 10th Amendment to the Constitution reserved to the states all rights not specially granted to the federal government, and in their view the states had thus retained their right to dissolve the federal relationship.?

He was a despot. Look at his actions ... imprisonment without trial or charge, jailing editors of news papers that disagreed, war of aggression, lying to accomplish his aggression,  ... ad infintum.

 ... and that was in the North. In the South, it was summary execution.

Hmmm ... sounds kind of familiar, BUT it was practised on the American people.

He was still a good man though cause regardless of his intentions, slaves were indeed freed.
I dont think black people today care how geniune Lincoln was as long as it happened.

So that gives him the "good"

D, he was a fucking racsist, as were all white men then.

He wasn't a good man, he was a fucking military despot. IMO, the fucker was more worried about his position in history(just like the current administration).

He deliberately instigate the action in Charleston. While not analogous, his actions during that same time were equivalent to the ultimatum delivered to the authorities in Afghanistan in Oct 01.

No sovereign nation could submit.

See his fallacious arguments made in the spring of 61. He was an intelligent man, and he knew exactly what he was doing. The link is above.

JWB should be remembered for the hero that he is for ridding this nation of that brutal tyrant, instead of how he is portrayed ... in the rest of the country anyway.

That's all well and good. He did it legally though; habeus corpus is not to be suspended bar invasion or rebellion. Of course, the north pushed them into that situation, but that can hardly be attributed to Lincoln alone.

You can't look at that piece of history without looking at the banking charters and the colonial script. Those are key.

He could be a pedophile for all I care, he's not responsible for ruining anything. He was simply an instrument that stopped following orders towards the end, indicative of a man with a heart for his country.

Ooh ... my friend, I do differ. He did not do it legally, and he was the one that issued the orders(with the help of Stanton(a most despicable son of a bitch)).

Come to think of it, I think that you had one of Ed's pics in a post of yours.

You're right it seems. Then again, what was he supposed to do? You don't win wars by having meetings in congress. I still say he was in his right to do it. The judge and congress are the real traitors here for jeopardizing the republics response ability.

Either way it's beside my point. Lincoln was a puppet, as was Booth, and you may put them both on polarized pedestals, but that doesn't change the fact that both the north and the south were victims of far greater powers than the dubious actions of a few misled men.

The Tyrant defied, both congress, and the court ...for what either of those two were worth.

 ... and he was a FUCKING LIAR!!!

No, I don't think so, his hand was deep in the conspiracy. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he was the puppet master.

Please, a puppet master does not put himself in the line of fire. Never.

Thus "sic semper tyrannis". If I can be repetitious.

No, that would be "sic semper nervis mobile lignum". :yes:

For give my ignorance, but my latin is limited to what I picked up in Paleontology.

to those that are immobile?

beating your head head against a wall?

"death to all puppets on strings"

Here here, and thus to all!