Here Today... Gone To Hell!

An Iraqi appeals court has upheld the death sentence imposed on Saddam Hussein at his first trial, Iraq's national security adviser said Tuesday. This means that he will be executed within 30 days.

http://news.netscape.com/story/2006/12/26/...-within-30-days



All i can say: It's about damn time.

bye Saddam.

finally!!

I must ask, will it be televised?

Yeah, this will probably bring all that peace to the Middle East Bush has been blathering about :confused:

It's gonna get worse folks......enjoy.

yep, he'll become a martyr, and then we have Iran to worry about  :confused:

This will solve nothing.  as Mama Kin said I would expect things to just get worse.

The only thing that will come out of this is Dubya calling up daddy and saying, "heh, I got that sunuvabitch dad...we won."

its just gonna cause more shit.

i kinda liked having him alive.

i mean who knew what funny stuff he would say.

he provided endless ammounts of material for letterman and conan.

i found him to look quite comical in prison and court.

in the middle east you may have like 85% of people happy he's dead.

but you're gonna have the 15% fanaticals that will go crazy

(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/179/hangmanqf3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Will it be on YouTube?

we can only hope.  :yes:

too bad south park is not back yet. i hope they have a field day with this. the whole "Saddam in hell" scenario will be perfect

i have a feeling he wont be hanged and get away with murder somehow. Why cant he just be executed immediately?

Bandita's right.  This solves nothing.   :no:

saddam is one of modern time's worst and most brutal dictators and i'm glad he is being brought to justice, however i am against the death penalty in any case, even saddam's. you might say "well it is what the iraqi people needs, closure" and soforth but i don't agree with taking lives in any case, and it's better to jail him for life. what sickens me is to see some of you, who never in any way were affected by saddam's crimes, gloat and want to see a man being murdered live on TV. you should be ashamed of yourselves.

That's the truth.  We claim to be a civilized nation.  We are sickened by the public executions in Saudi Arabia...yet, when we sanction the barbaric execution, all's good! 

Just when we have a chance to show the Middle East what humanity is all about...we answer killing with more killing.  How sad.   :(

i say make him suffer instead of killin' him, that will be like setting him free or something ya know what i mean

Nevermind the thousands of people he killed over his reign, let's just throw him back in power because comedians have fun impersonating this guy.  Great reason to keep him around!

Remember that we had no say in his death.  This was an Iraqi appeals court that witheld the original sentence.  This isn't us killing him, it's his own people.

The key battleground in the War of Iraq is the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, our inability to recognize that has cost us victory in this war. Although Saddam was a bastard he was not totally unpopular, while being able to keep a lid on the the place, a fact most of those on the right find hard to agree with due to their brainwashing. Saddam's conviction has tremondous impact on the Iraqi people, whether he is guilty or not, they must believe he was found guilty fairly or our enemies in Iraq will reap a propaganda bonanza portraying him as a victim of the American occupation puppet government.

Once again, we have played right into their hands, as we have done since the day we let them loot the arsenals. Saddam would have most assuredly been found guilty at the High Court at The Hague. So would Bush. Perhaps that is why he does not wish to make an appearance there. In any case, Saddam judged guilty by the world is much less of a propaganda weapon than Saddam found guilty by what all Sunnis consider American Shiite stooges.

I agree, not many people realize how much power he had, keeping the country in a relatively peaceful state.

"He gassed his own people!!!"
'Yeah, when your DAD was President and he was so upset about it, he almost interupted his golf game." Bill Maher.

He wont be a martyr, and Iran is nothing to worry about really. Its propogation.

News is out now...there's a very, very strong possibility that Saddam will be executed as early as this weekend.  The US is preparing for it now as is the Iraqi government.  Personally I think this is a bad idea.....nothing good will come from the execution of Saddam....I really think the US should either a) hold off on this for a while.....or b) imprison him for many life sentences so he can stand trial for his other crimes also.

"We will walk on your corpses and crush your skulls, and you will swim in your own blood."
-- Sadam Hussein

say what you want about saddam hussein but under his reign there was atleast a little bit of stability.

you need to weight up which is the lesser of two evils.

a saddistic and tyrannical dictatorship offering some relative stability or this chaotic and unstable movement we have towards "democracy"

there is no doubt that saddam was a bad man and his atrocities against humanity are noted, but now the area is in complete disarray. just a thought.

obviously saddam shouldnt be re-instated. i think he should just be jailed for life. i don't know how free this mock up court is from an American influence.

iraq right now is similar imo from germany 1945. They had a harsh, dictator government who  provided germans with stability and now he's gone germany was a big fat mess. hopefully iraq shall clean up fast like germany have.

I do agree with execution, i mean why the hell shud people pay taxes for him to stay alive. you know there's no guilt from him either way

I'd rather pay the few dollars a day in taxes it would take to keep him rotting in a jail cell, than to pay another $600 billion to the war effort after the insurgents step up their attacks.

You can't compare those two because in germany you didn't have all these religions fighting for power.

imo, The middle east will always remain a highly volatile area...

i think u can compare because of all the contradictory extremism being most popular but due to political violence people were limited in what could be achieved. inshallah the Middle East wont be a volatile area. There was peace before all this so it can be achieved after in todays society.

yeah man, id love to see how he likes having an ear cut on like one of his punishments were.

I think hes getting killed tonight  ???

This is gonna start a jihad  :no:

It's not going to be calm, that's for sure.  Whether it tecnically happens tonight/tomorrow (am), more can be read here:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-12-28-saddam_x.htm

Saddam Hussein will be hanged between 2.30am and 3am UK time. So that is in 1hour 20mins - 1hour 50mins time!

So if its now 7:21 pm, it will be around 8:30 or so?

yeah roughly

10PM EST, as far as the US is concerned...

it should happen within 1 hour

Here comes the bloodshed and violence..........

what are you talking about , there is already bloodshed and violence, this won't hurt it or make it better .But the Iraqi people feel this is Law and justice for them

what time pacific would 6 am bagdad time be

7 pm he is dead already


al arabiya tv network is reporting that....

It's done

Well, that's the end of an era.

Good!!!
 
 Now its time for the fall out.

what fallout , car bombings , masssive kidnappings , and executions ?

this will cause nothing more or new to whats already goingon over there

Killing the snake won't remove the snakebite.

 Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein executed
POSTED: 11:07 p.m. EST, December 29, 2006
Story Highlights
? NEW: Official: "Saddam's body is in front me. It's over."
? NEW: Witnesses report people "dancing around the body"
? Hussein lawyers lost last-minute appeal in U.S. court
? No details on where execution took place
Adjust font size:
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BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein has been executed, a witness said.

"Saddam's body is in front me," said an official in the prime minister's office when CNN telephoned. "It's over."

In the background, Shiite chanting could be heard. When asked about the chanting, the official said "These are employees of the prime minister's office and government chanting in celebration."

The witness reported that celebrations broke out after Hussein was dead, and that there was "dancing around the body."

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki did not attend the execution, according to an adviser to the prime minister who was interviewed on state television.

The execution was videotaped and photographed, state television reported, and those images will be distributed to the media.

Al-Arabiya television network reported that Barzan Hassan, Hussein's half-brother, and Awad Bandar, former chief justice of the Revolutionary Court, were hanged after Hussein. All three were convicted of killings in the Iraqi town of Dujail nearly 25 years ago.

Earlier, Munir Haddad, a judge on the appeals court that upheld the former dictator's death sentence, and an adviser to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki each confirmed the paperwork needed for Hussein's execution had been prepared late Friday.

At the same time, a U.S. district judge refused a request to stay the execution.

Attorney Nicholas Gilman said in an application for a restraining order, filed Friday in U.S. District Court in Washington, that a stay would allow Hussein "to be informed of his rights and take whatever action he can and may wish to pursue."

Haddad had called Gilman's filing "rubbish," and said, "It will not delay carrying out the sentence," which he called "final."

Haddad wouldn't disclose the location of the execution and said it wouldn't be broadcast live on TV because of human rights issues.

Throughout the day, there were conflicting reports about who had custody of Hussein. Giovanni di Stefano, one of Hussein's defense attorneys, told CNN the U.S. military officially informed him that the former Iraqi dictator had been transferred to Iraqi but that the move in U.S. court could have meant that Hussein was back in U.S. custody.

There had been speculation that Hussein would be executed before Eid Al-Adha -- a holiday period that means Feast of the Sacrifice, celebrated by Muslims around the world at the climax of the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca. The law does not permit executions to be carried out during religious holidays.

Eid began Saturday for Sunnis and Sunday for Shiites and lasts for four days. Hussein is a Sunni Muslim.

(http://www.misterspunky.com/deadman.gif)

I don't think you realize the situation here

That's fucked up.

i hope they taped it so i can watch it on youtube.

Anyone who kills 1 million of their own people is going to have it catch up to them sooner or later. That day was today for Saddam.

it was recorded, and is supposedly to be released to the press. There are some that say its a human rights violation though.  ::)

Pictures are supposed to be released soon, atleast thats what CNN says.

So Saddam is dead....great.

But here we are, 6 years later, and Osama is still out there.

This news means nothing to me to be honest.

The man needed to be hung, but the way we went about it was phony, and no one is buying the bullshit story that "the Iraqi government" hung him. It will be followed by more bullshit on how "the Iraqi people" hung him. What really happened is a US Shiite puppet government hung one of the top Sunnis. They could have made it work if he was judged by an international court, but they did not - instead we hung him the way colonial powers hang rebels. We have done nothing but create a martyr. Get ready for more blood and guts.


(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/5291/rumsfeldhusseinho6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Fox News has a strange idea about good taste (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcgyL6J_Z9Q).

Note: Parental guidance suggested.

An international court would've just made the media's day and even more bullshit. No thanks. Not with Saddam.

Saddam would have still been made a martyr whatever court judged him anyways.

Why should we listen to those who led us into this fiasco?

Bud Fox bet you thought we would be greeted as ?liberators? too.

The war was lost because people like you did not understand the makeup of that region. You played right into their hands and continue to feed their propaganda machine via your foolishness and hubris. Removing Saddam was an incredibly stupid idea, putting him on trial in front of a bogus Iraqi "government" was even more stupid than that. Get ready for more blowback.

Do you see any difference?

(http://bp1.blogger.com/_ZIh27hHl3zA/RZY6RKGRbdI/AAAAAAAAAAo/bCClPVjqzpI/s400/shame.jpg)
(http://bp3.blogger.com/_ZIh27hHl3zA/RZY6RqGRbeI/AAAAAAAAAAw/r44KePrdGqQ/s400/terrorists.jpg)

It still doesn't change that more than likely Saddam would still become a marty. International court or no international court.

Yes one is a hanging one is a beheading, one is an innocent man one is a convicted man, one was done illegally one was done legally (ie through a court order). Whether you agree with the punishment or not you cannot compare the execution of an innocent man to one of a convicted murderer. But i do fear this is going to cause further innocent bloodshed.     

Then I'll rephrase the question: do you see any similarities?

just the men in their black bela clava

Executioners have been hooded since the dawn of times.

The one similarity I can find is the smell of Death. Undeniably, Hussein committed horrible crimes against humanity by judging a great many people to their deaths. And yet, by doing the same for him, we do agree with him that some lives are more expendable than others.

Kill a thousand and its a genocide.
Kill one and its a reckoning.

I fail to see how that would work.

My point exactly.

Big difference. Saddam killed hundred of thousands of people. The other guy was innocent. Dumbass!

Exactly, no comparison

Some Pictures May Be Graphic









(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/meast/12/30/hussein/story.saddam.01.ap.jpg)
(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/meast/12/30/hussein/newt1.saddam.05.ap.jpg)


 Witness: Hussein's last words mock Shiite cleric
 Hussein to be buried in the "next few hours," official says
? Shiite TV airs video that appears to show Hussein's body
? Hussein's final words mock Muqtada al-Sadr, says witness
? Iraqi PM al-Maliki: "Door is still open to join in rebuilding Iraq"

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Defiant to the end, Saddam Hussein mocked Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr moments before he was hanged, a witness said Saturday.

The Iraqi government executed Hussein before dawn as punishment for his role in a massacre of his own people, more than two decades before he was toppled by a U.S.-led invasion.

A video of the execution broadcast on Al-Iraqiya state television showed Hussein, dressed in a black overcoat, being led into a room by three masked guards

A witness, Iraqi Judge Munir Haddad, said that one of the executioners told Hussein that the former dictator had destroyed Iraq, which sparked an argument that was joined by several government officials in the room.

As a noose was tightened around Hussein's neck, one of the executioners yelled "long live Muqtada al-Sadr," Haddad said, referring to the powerful anti-American Shiite religious leader.

Hussein, a Sunni, mockingly uttered one last phrase before he died: "Muqtada al-Sadr," according to Haddad's account.

The judge said Hussein appeared "totally oblivious to what was going on around him. I was very surprised. He was not afraid of death."

But Haddad's description of Hussein's demeanor before his execution contrasts markedly with another witness, Iraqi national security adviser Mowaffak al-Rubaie. "He was a broken man," al-Rubaie said. "He was afraid. You could see fear in his face."

he former dictator refused to wear a hood as he was hanged, al-Rubaie said.

Hussein's death came in "a blink of the eye" after his executioner activated the gallows just after 6 a.m. (10 p.m. Friday ET), said al-Rubaie.

"This dark page has been turned over," al-Rubaie said. "Saddam is gone. Today Iraq is an Iraq for all the Iraqis, and all the Iraqis are looking forward. ... The [Hussein] era has gone forever."

Nice language, seems to suit you  :beer:

Hangman, hangman, hold it a little while,
I Think I see my friends coming, Riding a many mile.
Friends, you get some silver?
Did you get a little gold?
What did you bring me, my dear friends? Keep me from the Gallows Pole.
What did you bring me to keep me from the Gallows Pole?

I couldn't get no silver, I couldn't get no gold,
You know that we're too damn poor to keep you from the Gallows Pole.
Hangman, hangman, hold it a little while,
I think I see my brother coming, riding many a mile.
Brother, you get me some silver?
Did you get a little gold?
What did you bring me, my brother, to keep me from the Gallows Pole?

Brother, I brought you some silver, yeah.
I brought a little gold, I brought a little of everything
To keep you from the Gallows Pole.
Yes, I brought you to keep you from the Gallows Pole.

Hangman, hangman, turn your head awhile,
I think I see my sister coming, riding many mile, mile, mile.
Sister, I implore you, take him by the hand,
Take him to some shady bower, save me from the wrath of this man,
Please take him, save me from the wrath of this man, man.

Hangman, hangman, upon your face a smile,
Tell me that I'm free to ride,
Ride for many mile, mile, mile.

Oh yes, you got a fine sister, She warmed my blood from cold,
She warmed my blood to boiling hot to keep you from the Gallows Pole,
Your brother brought me silver, Your sister warmed my soul,
But now I laugh and pull so hard And see you swinging from the Gallows Pole

But now I laugh and pull so hard And see you swinging from the Gallows Pole
Swingin' on the gallows pole!

The US meddling with Iraqi affairs? That's a first. Back in 1958, Abdul Karim Qassim, Iraq's first president came to power after succesfully overthrowing the king, Faisal II. Quassim's bloody reign went on for a while unnoticed, until he began to make ties to the Soviet Union (during monarchy, Iraq had been pro-West) and support the Communist movement. The Baath party was at odds with the new president and assembled a six-man squad to assassinate him in 1959. This attempt was supported by the CIA, Baath being anti-communistic by fault and also a suitable and much needed pawn at the time. The assassination itself went awry, with Baath scattering for a future attempt. A certain young member of the hitmen was injured and smuggled into Egypt through Syria and Lebanon, during which time he received training from the US intelligence.
 
In 1963, Baath made another coup, now with more success. While the CIA has denied ever being a part of this operation, they have admitted to have supplied Baath with lists of people known to have been members of Iraq's Communist party. These people would then be hunted down by the Iraqi National Guard.

In 1968, after some subsequent power struggle, Ahmad Hassan al-Bakr of the Baath party rose to power, his henchman being the young man delivered to Egypt nearly ten years earlier. Saddam Hussein had officially began his journey towards rule of Iraq.
 

Saddam is dead.
This should be a war of hate. Not a war of understanding. In WW 1 and 2 we hated are enemies. We didnt try to understand them and sympathize with them. We HATED THEM. We wiped them out and won wars. Islamo facists need to die.
Saddam being hung is great. The death penalty is necessary. They are some even people out there who need to die.
<img src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g229/mvboy3102008/saddam_hang.gif">

Saddam is not an "islamo fascist" genius. He was secular dictator who was supported by the United States government for years until Bush needed a scape goat.

Understanding and sympathizing with an enemy are clearly different things. Stupid talk like yours is why Iraq is in complete meltdown mode right now. Bush was so stupid he didn't even understand that there were different sects of Islam in Iraq. Of course, now he knows. The Arabs have already begun to use this as a propaganda tool against the USA just like Bud Fox said they would. Arab cartoons showing Saddam being hung by the American backed puppet government have already surfaced, and will only inspire more terrorists now. Just as Iraq has been proven to spawn more terrorists. He should have been tried in an international court. Man, just when you think Bush can't fuck it up anymore.

So your thery is that there will be even more terrorists than before? Are you afraid of these evil fucking people? Should we just not do anything because were afraid of what they will do to us? Iraq is on its way to a better place. Having democracy there is amazing. Percentage wise more people turned out for the election there than in the US. Much, much more. Not having to live in fear of some fuck like Saddam and his men is the best thing for those people. The people that live there have to be given the power and freedom that has been denied to them for so long. They, sadly, can't do it alone.

How anyone could sympathize with Saddam is absurd. He is in the same group as Hitler and Milosovic. Brutal dictators who killes hudreds of thousands or more of their own people.

Oddly enough, Saddam would still be alive & in power if he let the UN inspectors look at whatever they wanted in 2002. Not a smart man either. Apparently he had no WMD's so what was his problem other than his ego?

You people are out of your fucking minds. Iraq is in total meltdown mode and people are getting butchered in the middle of a civil war right now. Unlike you guys Bud fox is a non-Kool-Aid drinking realist, we both know the reasons given for the War in Iraq have been nothing short of utter fictions made up for yellow-ribbon waving shitheads (Maccacas). Once one excepts that fact, one must now move on to the next question - what is the real reason we are in Iraq? It sure isn?t to spread democracy. Like trying different pieces of a puzzle to find the one that fits, the one labeled "because the Saudis are running out of oil so they are using their Bush family puppets to gain control of Iraq's" fits quite nicely. it would explain our odd defense of Kuwaiti fascists in 1991 as well, where Bush Daddy did a 180 on Saddam, telling him it was ok to invade one day, and then becoming the great defenders of non-existent Kuwaiti freedom the next.



Hey, Bud Fox is throwing a "Victory for Al Queda  in Iraq Party" for all his friends. After we face east to pray to Mecca, we are going to do Jello Shots with the ACLU while we watch gays bang each other as we plan to take God away from the public. You're invited!

Who is doing that?

Man you guys are nuts.



You may want to brush up on your history.

Bush kicked the inspectors out, not Saddam. The biggest lie your fascist leader ever led you to believe was that Saddam kicked them out, causing us to invade Iraq. It's a total fabrication that stooges repeat to this day. Absolutely pathetic.

oh puleeze.. thats not graphic  ::)

i wanna see him hanging.. that is graphic.

ive seen the video showing his dead body, it looks as though his neck is completly broke

can i see?

On the menu this evening: Kurds and whey with fried eggs, Sunni side up. Or if you prefer a good old fashion shit sandwich (Americans sure are used to the taste by now.)

The distraction mechanism has been set and is in full swing. 24/7 news channels will be regurgitating this story for months.

Osama who again?

heres the link: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b3a00b5684

 :o

yeah, it looks like his neck is broken, definitely

Holy smokes!  I just saw this picture on the news of Saddam Hussein shaking hands with Osama Bin Laden!  Damn!  There was a connection between Saddam and Osama after all!  They must have really been cozy with each other...oops, my bad, that was a pic of Saddam shaking hands with good ol' Donald Rumsfeld.   ;)  Back when Saddam was best buddies with the U.S.

Back on topic.  Okay, he's dead, does everybody feel great now?  This is all so ridiculous.   :(

heres some footage of the hanging, its real shaky and shittty tho.  it happened quick  :o
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7532034279766935521

wow, that was intense  :o

Yup, that about says it all.

What astounds me is how no one talks about the US's relationship with Saddam.  Hell, we even celebrated his birthday with him before the first Gulf War.  Or what about the reports that our country gave him a wink and a nod when it came to invading Kuwait, letting him know to do it, but do it quietly. 
Also, you can see video of Rumsfeld and Hussein together in Fahrenheit 911.

He diddnt seem to suffer like the masses he ordered put to death. 

yeah, his neck broke on the way down... it would have been pretty bad to have video of him hanging their, trying to breathe as he died though.

hmmm if there was no guy in the first picture being hung , the guy in the second picture would not be there ?

I think, as far as invasion to Kuwait was concerned, the US tried to have their cake and eat it as well. Saddam was facing an economical crisis at the time and was also receiving billions of American dollars to withhold from an alliance with the Soviets. Also, the US goverment wasn't giving him a direct message on how they'd react if Iraq would invade Kuwait. After the invasion, everyone in the outside world paniced about the possible high-rise in oil prices, which was ultimately the one thing that set the wheels in motion.

The funny thing is, before the invasion to Kuwait, Saddam had been affiliated to the US goverment for varying degrees for over 30 years. It was only then when he was considered an enemy of the state, a position he held about another 15 years. A week short of 20 years after shaking hands with Rumsfield, Saddam was found by US military from a hole in the ground. He did manage to see his old comrade being removed from office and charged of war crimes. This year proved to be one that would be the end for both of them.

Bingo!

I might just have a place in my cabinet for you yet!  ;)

In the big picture of the 'war on terror' this is non-news (that is until we see if this does indeed help create more terrorists or create more terror attacks in iraq, but so far it seems to be just the normal amount of people dying  :-\  )

Bingo #2

Actually, this should have been number 1.  Does anyone else find it rather pathetic/ironic that, from an American/War On Terror POV, the wrong guy is hanging?

We should be on the Afghan/Paki border looking in caves and not driving around Iraqi streets waiting for the next IED to maim/kill US soldiers.

We have to stop our insatiable addiction to fossil fuel. The USA is the world's biggest dope addict. We liked oil at first, but we are beyond that now - we will kill our own kids to get more, and like all addicts, we will eventually die a premature death from it.

I love the spin people put on Saddam's death.

Iraqi-Americans Cheer Saddam's Death

DEARBORN, Mich. Dec 30, 2006 (AP)? With tears in his eyes and a grin on his face, 13-year-old Ali Al-Najjar watched his father celebrate the death of Saddam Hussein.

The Dearborn resident was emotional Friday night not only did his dream of the former Iraqi president's execution come true, but he said he was witnessing a rare occurrence.

"This is the first time I've seen my dad this happy," he said as he watched the crowd of about 200 Iraqi-Americans cheer outside a Detroit-area mosque as drivers honked horns in jubilation. "I've been praying for this all my life."

His father, Imam Husham Al-Husainy, the director of the Karbalaa Islamic Educational Center mosque, had gathered some of the men earlier in the night, praying for the death of the former Iraqi dictator.

The crowd swelled until the announcement of Saddam's execution rippled throughout the gathering, leading some to dance and sing and others to fall to their knees and cry. Many draped Iraqi and American flags on their heads, shoulders and car hoods.

Chants of "Now there's peace, Saddam is dead" in English and Arabic rang into the night.

"This is our celebration of the death of Saddam," said Al-Husainy while standing on top of a car following reports that Saddam had been hanged. "The gift of our New Year is the murder of Saddam Hussein.

"If you want to share the Iraqi people's happiness for the death of Saddam, raise your voice and your hands."

The crowd responded with resounding cheers.

The Detroit area contains one of the nation's largest concentrations of people with roots in the Middle East, including an Iraqi community of Chaldeans, who are Catholic, Arabs and Kurds. Many from Iraq fled their homeland during the rule of Saddam.

In Dearborn, Dave Alwatan was among those who gathered at the Karbalaa center. He wore an Iraqi flag around his shoulders and grinned. He flashed a peace sign at everyone he passed.

"Peace," he said, smiling and laughing. "Now there will be peace for my family."

Alwatan, 32, an Iraqi-American, said Saddam's forces tortured and killed family members that were left behind when he left Iraq in 1991.

Others expressed a similar sense of relief.

"I feel like I lost something all my life and today it is found," said Moshtaq al-Bazaz, of Windsor, Ontario, who used to live in Dearborn and still prays at the mosque.

Some local Arab-American leaders predicted that Saddam's execution will increase violence overseas and leave the Iraqi people unsettled.

Osama Siblani, publisher of The Arab American News and chairman of several local Arab-American groups, said Saddam's death sentence is one more casualty in a war that has killed thousands, and it will not solve the power struggle among Iraqi religious groups.

"The execution might bring some amusement and accomplishment to the Bush administration, but it will not help the Iraqi people," Siblani said.

Edward Odisho, 68, an Iraqi refugee since 1981 who now lives in Morton Grove, Ill., said it will take time for Iraqis to recover from Saddam's reign.

"It will take one to two generations to eradicate the garbage left over from Saddam Hussein and to re-establish a healthy generation," said Odisho, a linguistics professor at Northeastern Illinois University.

Rauf Naqishbendi, 53, an Iraqi Kurd from Halabja who now lives a few miles south of San Francisco moved to the U.S. in 1977.

Naqishbendi said he was pleased that Saddam was being executed, but lamented that it will not bring back family members who he said were gassed by the dictator's henchman in 1988.

"Psychologically the execution is good news, and people will feel that justice has been served," he said. "But the reality is that it's not going to bring back my family members who he killed."

Associated Press writers David Runk in Detroit, Carla K. Johnson in Chicago and Jason Dearen in San Francisco contributed to this report.

What spin?

The biggest spin ever was the "War on terror"-If it was about terrorism, we would be in Somalia and have twenty divisions in Afghanistan. Bush has yet to effect any serious damage to Al-Qaeda, Osama, or any other bad guys, in fact the opposite has happened. They are all out there operating at will, sending lobotomized loonies to Iraq to confront us. Saddam being snuffed out is about as relevant as the dollar bill Bud Fox found in his jean pocket yesterday.

Hey Fox, why are you even a member of this forum?  You haven't posted once in any GN'R related area of this board.  Assuming you are an independent account and not an extra for another poster, why come here to flame and add your naieve and hateful views?  You've done nothing but hangout in the jungle and call people who have a different opinion than you fascists, stooges and many other insults.  Furthermore, the majority of your posts lack any substance or thought.  You obviously come here to argue on politics, so maybe you should stay at SLC's joint where you're more appreciated.

On topic, this drives the message home that no one is safe from being held accountable.  I agree, we should go after Bin Laden, but the man hasn't been seen in years and is in a constant state of hiding - quite different than what he was just a few years ago.  Bin Laden will be found, and he will suffer the same fate as Hussein.

 :hihi:

its so true

 

Who is the being held accountable? Iraq goat farmers? Baathist nationalists? Shiite Iraqis? None of these people were our enemies prior to 9-11, and those are the people we attacked.

The enemy is Al Queda. They have deep roots in four countries: Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia. Those are the countries our chiefs of staff wanted to invade on 9-12.

In addition, there is also the monsterous threat that Iran and Al Queda can unite, if they have not already. They both want essentially the same thing: an Islamic Republic form of government, a quasi-dictatorship that sees us as subhumans. No big deal, until Iran began its quest to acquire nukes. Both Iran and Al Queda were opposed by Saddam, who for all his evil, was actually working in our favor. Bush, in all these years, has attacked the wrong country, creating a new haven that did not exist before, and doing nothing about their main bases in Somalia and Pakistan. Those are the nations we should be at all out war with.

You guys want so much to justify this, to make it right, to somehow convince the rest of us this was not the stupidest, most vile clusterfuck in US history. Keep it up so we can kick your ass again in 2008, because no one is buying your shit anymore except the Koolaid drinking News Max Dittohead freaks.

Some people just love to argue. Any thread related to Iraq has some dumbass spinning it to reflect how much they hate Bush and the Republicans & how they are worse than Saddam & Osama blah blah blah and how America sucks etc.

This thread should be locked it's going so far off topic now.

Vengeance of the Victors


By Fareed Zakaria

Newsweek

Jan. 8, 2007 issue

- The saga of Saddam's end?his capture, trial and execution?is a sad metaphor for America's occupation of Iraq. What might have gone right went so wrong. It is worth remembering that Saddam Hussein was not your run-of-the-mill dictator. He created one of the most brutal, corrupt and violent regimes in modern history, something akin to Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao's China or Kim Jong Il's North Korea. Whatever the strategic wisdom for the United States, deposing him began as something unquestionably good for Iraq.

But soon the Bush administration dismissed the idea of trying Saddam under international law, or in a court with any broader legitimacy. This is the administration, after all, that could see little advantage to a United Nations mandate for its own invasion and occupation. It put Saddam's fate in the hands of the new Iraqi government, dominated by Shiite and Kurdish politicians who had been victims of his reign. As a result, Saddam's trial, which should have been the judgment of civilized society against a tyrant, is now seen by Iraq's Sunnis and much of the Arab world as a farce, reflecting only the victors' vengeance.

This was not inevitable. Most Iraqis were happy to see Saddam out of power. In the months after the American invasion, support for the Coalition Provisional Authority topped 70 percent. This was so even among Iraq's Sunni Arabs. In the first months of the insurgency, only 14 percent of them approved of attacks on U.S. troops. (That number today is 70 percent.) The rebellious area in those early months was not (Sunni) Fallujah but (Shiite) Najaf.

But during those crucial first months, Washington disbanded the Iraqi Army, fired 50,000 bureaucrats and shut down the government-owned enterprises that employed most Iraqis. In effect, the United States dismantled the Iraqi state, leaving a deep security vacuum, administrative chaos and soaring unemployment. That state was dominated by Iraq's Sunni elites, who read this not as just a regime change but a revolution in which they had become the new underclass. For them, the new Iraq looked like a new dictatorship.

Why Washington made such profound moves with such little forethought remains one of the many puzzles of the Bush administration's foreign policy. Some of the decision making was motivated by ideology: Baathism equaled fascism, so every school teacher who joined the Baath Party to get a job was seen as a closet Nazi; state-owned enterprises were bad, the new Iraq needed a flat tax, etc. Some of it was influenced by Shiite exiles who wanted to take total control of the new Iraq. Some of it simply reflected the bizarre combination of ignorance and naivete that has marked the policies of Bush's "tough guys."

The administration has never fully understood the sectarian nature of its policies, which were less "nation building" than they were "nation busting" in their effects. It kept insisting that it was building a national army and police force when it was blatantly obvious (even to columnists) that the forces were overwhelmingly Shiite and Kurdish, mostly drawn from militias with stronger loyalties to political parties than to the state. The answer to these fundamentally political objections was technocratic: more training. But a stronger Shiite Army made?makes?the Sunni populace more insecure and willing to support the insurgency.

Iraq's Sunnis are not the good guys in this story. They have mostly behaved like self-defeating thugs. The minority of Sunnis who support Al Qaeda have been truly barbarous. The point, however, is not their vices but our stupidity. We summarily deposed not just Saddam Hussein but a centuries-old ruling elite and then were stunned that they reacted poorly. In contrast, on coming into power in South Africa, Nelson Mandela did not fire a single white bureaucrat or soldier?and not because he thought that they had been kind to his people. He correctly saw the strategy as the way to prevent an Afrikaner rebellion.

It has now become fashionable among Washington neoconservatives to blame the Iraqis for everything that has happened to their country. "We have given the Iraqis a republic and they do not appear able to keep it," laments Charles Krauthammer. Others invoke anthropologists to explain the terrible dysfunctions of Iraqi culture. There may be some truth to all these claims?Iraq is a tough place?but the Bush administration is not quite so blameless. It thoughtlessly engineered a political and social revolution as intense as the French or Iranian one and then seemed surprised that Iraq could not digest it happily, peaceably and quickly. We did not give them a republic. We gave them a civil war.

I agree with some of the points of the newsweek article. but........................

If you get your info on Iraq only from mainstream media you wont get an accurate picture. Bad news sells.

Mistakes were made, we know that. Bush made some HUGE mistakes. Disbanding and putting the former army & baathists out of work was a big blunder, this is why we have the problems we have today.

But a lot of good things are happening in Iraq also.

Bud Fox, are you slcpunk's brother or something? you both sound very much alike  :hihi:

I've been saying that for a while.  They both have very similar writing styles.

Bud Fox is waiting to hear them.




Are you ever going to say anything that is not about Bud Fox? It's as if you are dumb as Iraq.

Bud Fox, you know from my posts my thoughts on this war.  When you say you're "waiting to hear" the good things, I'm sure you are being sarcastic.  While Iraq on the whole has been a debacle, some good is coming of this ridiculous occupation.  A brutal dictator (for the time being) is not in power and the infrastructure of Iraq is slowly being rebuilt.

   

The basic policy premise, that democracy will somehow solve the problems in these countries, is just plain wrong. Democracy simply gives rise to Hezbollah-style militias, mullahs and genocide, and eventual Islamic Republic rule. Bush probably never heard of the "Weimer Republic",  you want change? Either invade these places WWII style, with a million troops and smash and kill everyone who looks at you wrong, followed by an occupation of three million troops, or stay the fuck out and let them naturally progress to democracy, which might take them another 1,000 years.

Our biggest contribution can be made at the diplomatic level - trying to get these people to talk, trying to straighten out the incrediblly stupid borders of these countries, and pulling support from the fascist regimes we support in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the Emirates. Of course, we can only do that if we quit buying their cursed oil, which will never happen as long as we have president and vice president who are in the business of selling it.

The core problem in Iraq has always been that Iraq is a fiction. Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Western Iraq ought to be the same country. Northern Iraq should be a separate country called Kurdistan. Eastern Iraq should be an Iranian client state or a part of Iran. Then peace could come to this place. But the Americans and the British oil companies are not anamoured of this idea, and have kept the place in turmoil since the 1920's, so they can steal there oil.

I dont agree that its all one big US conspiracy. Bush had an itchy trigger finger to invade Iraq based on bad intelligence we thought then to be accurate. . Think about it. How much oil are we really getting from Iraq??

Bush was told by the CIA that the "intel" about WMD was poor and to take it out of a speech. He did at first, however the next week (when he addressed the nation and the world) he put it back in the speech and continued to lie from that point onward. Top CIA officials have come forward to give interviews on this story, it has been all over the news, and the net. In other words: Bush knew the "intel" (to go to war) was bogus, but chose to lie about it anyway.

So please, no more "Bush acted on bad intel we thought to be accurate at the time." It's not accurate, nor honest. Bush was told by the CIA that it was faulty, but he used it anyway. Which is lying.

That may be true, but for every one "good thing" happening in Iraq there are dozens of bad things.  The bad outweighs the good the way an elephant outweighs a mouse.

And the good things are good for the Iraqi people, but they are certainly not "good things" for American troops and American interests.  This war has created more terrorists, cost billions of dollars and is only getting worse.

yes, its good Saddam is dead, but like i said earlier, who cares - this news means nothing to me from a war on terror POV.  Its been a few years now, are there really any of you who are reading this who truly believe we, the American people, weren't misled/lied to about the true intentions of this war?  The rationale keeps changing as the situation does.  This war is to find WMDs....no, WMDs?? ok, its about democracy then!  Wait, democracy is not going to happen in Iraq (and please, a purple finger to me is not a functioning democracy, its a photo op).

I'm still waiting for the next excuse.  This war is a total failure, Sadamms death is just a reminder of that.  The world, and arguably Iraq, were better places before the war.

Couldn't agree more myself.

bud fox why don't you go mourn his death somewhere else..

Good Riddance Saddam, Did any of you see how broken of a man he was at the gallows? Before I was all for him sitting in a prison and getting shit on but when I seen the fear in his eyes before they put the Noose around his neck I knew it was the right thing.

Its called proxy.

ya.. whether or not someone is pro-death penalty or not, its not like this asshole is going to be missed one bit.

If you want to die for Iraqis, take a fucking plane, today, to Baghdad, Bud Fox has this quaint idea that his taxes and the lives of our kids are to DEFEND AMERICA instead of some Republican wet dream utopian fantasy. Why aren't you over there again?



Another wet dream of yours Bud Fox is sure.

Oh I think a few are missing him..


I don't have to explain my military service to you.. I have military service under my belt.. what do you have? A keyboard, box of twinkies and a whole lotta hatred for your own country?

go play in the street little one.

What? The German "Rainbow Coalition" ?

wooaaahh good one..

You scammed your way out of serving in Iraq just like Bush scammed his way out serving his country. Interesting that you can point fingers, lie, name call and pussy bully safely behind the keyboard with this "hand injury" for years, but could not use that same hand to defend us all in Iraq.

A total fraud.

haha I scammed my way outta going to Iraq? Im in the Navy you fool! haha! Go whine about military recruiters on campus or some retarded shit like that.

Or better yet go cry about how your shitty little website got deleted and when I violated you civil rights..

Go kill yourself.

Did you watch the video?  I saw him taunting the crowd and even smiling at one point.  I'm not trying to compliment him, but he took it very calm.  He even refused his black mask. 

Why does Bud Fox keep referring to himself in third person?  Does he also use the "royal we?" freedom78 wonders. 

yes.. I seen the videos.. both versions the cell phone and the pro version.. where did he taunt the crowd? cause i didnt see that.. All I seen was a broken man.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/atv/player.html?catID=10&clipID=13693  <-- I just watched this one.. he just looks so beaten.. idk Maybe theres more footage i have not seen.

budfox is just here to harass people... hes someone else's alter ego.. he does it cause he has nothing better to spend his time doing..

Bud Fox sees a total hypocrite. Have you contributed anything intelligent at all to this thread?

Bottom line: Saddam should have been tried by an international court. Most right wing types are too stupid to understand the repercussions of what just happened. Just as they were too stupid to understand the make up of "Iraq" before their failed occupation. Daddy Bush understood and that is why he never went into Iraq the first time. That is also why he has been brought in to clean up Jr's mess. People like Brody want to make this relevant because they desperately need their pride reassured that they weren't used like toilets by their own party, which of course, they were. It?s pathetic really- he has been reduced to focusing his attention on how  Saddam appeared  prior to his demise, rather than owning up to facts which are actually relevant.

Saddam will prove much more useful in death to the machismo loving Arabs than he ever did in life. He died a martyrs death at the hands of the Americans and the Iranian spies, will be the war cry. Sadly people like brody are not only getting used by their own party, but falling right in line with what Osama wanted the entire time-the end result being a sickening, disgusting waste of human life. Ironically he is more than willing to send other kids off to get butchered in the sand, while faking a hand injury to get out of serving in the meat grinder he so proudly promotes-Fox bets he uses the same hand to finger point with.

Bud Fox and Brody will now both shut the fuck up for a while and stop the insults since you two can't seem to discuss this in a civil manner.

The death penalty is a disgrace, maybe one day the Iraqi government will be called to account for it

The sheer hypocrisy of executing a man because he executed someone else is almost more than i can comprehend

No matter what Saddam did a kangaroo court and death was not justice.

all the accounts i have read said he was defiant and he was indeed shouting back at the crowd.   it doesn't matter if he was laughing his ass off seconds before they kicked the chair out under him or if he was crying for his mom whilst pissing his pants...WHO CARES about this - its such non-news.  this changes nothing in the world.  we hung the wrong guy (so to speak).  i'm happy for the iraqi people (the ones who aren't mad about this) but this changes nothing for Americans or US troops - infact, it might only incite MORE violence.

That's exactly whats going to happen.

Saddam had thousands and thousands of supporters and admirers, and how do you suppose they are feeling right about now?

Pissed off, desperate, not to mention hungry for both revenge, and the blood of an American.

It will maybe incite more violence, but as far as the civil war was going on over there, that won't make a big deal.


off topic
What was crazy about the execution was the attitude saddam had during the whole thing.
He behaved just like what an american movie would have portrayed for a hero's death.
That must have been wierd for someone used to watch spielberg movies for so long, and then, realize that, somewhere, in the middle east, some guy actually got that kind of attitude. yes it happens in real life. only difference is that the "hero" is american only in the movies.

They showed on CNN, some random passerby in manhattan reacting to saddam's death.
It was quite fun to watch. i thought i was over my "americans are stupid" phase. but this was too funny.
Hearing some fat ass bitch saying
" i am so happy that they killed him after what he has done to america, i hated the fact that he was not dead yet,  he should have gotten more than that. this punition was not enough ..."  :o
and some other guy in michigan or montana (i know montana does not exists ...) :
" he should have been shot, that would have been better, hanging was too nice ! "  :o

what i want to understand, is WHAT THE HELL SADDAM HAS TO DO WITH THESE PEOPLE???
you are in fuckin new york city!!! what do you of saddam? what did he do TO YOU ? do you really take it personnaly that he murdered thousands of kurds and chiites ? do you ? do you know where iraq is? do you still think ben laden is saddam hussein?
*
to analyse the issue is one thing.
to take everything personnaly and back to an "all american" issue is kinda dumb. but hey. what do you know.

back to topic

they killed him when only 2 of the 17 first charges were processed.
why? because 15 of the crimes/ issues (the biggest too) Saddam took part of / ordred (genocide, weapons traffic, money) were involving so MANY international personalities that it would have been a mess to handle them.

Donald Rumsfeld was saddam's fuckin friend.
French president made so many contracts with him.
these countries : france, USA, england, argentina, brazil, germany were HEAVILY involved with many of Saddam's acts.

that is why he was not judged in an International Court.
it would be easy, almost too easy, to blame the USA for that - as they as always do not like international courts, because they fear that one day a lot of their citizens would be taken down there -
but also France and Germany. they didnty want that court.

but in thend.
The USA lose again.
3000 dead.
they're a mess politicaly on their land.
they are more hated than ever. even more than before 9/11.
they lost in iraq. they dont where they're going. they're sending young kids to die and brainwashing their parents who still think america has to fight all over the world ....
Saddam Hussein has become an official martyr, he has shown dignity and a powerful face, and the only chance we had to take this dictator down for WHAT he has done, is gone, because the USA made it a personal cause.


but you know what? in the end. can't you see that dictators will never be judged normally. they either live peacfully in a villa (augusto) or die quickly and erase all their crimes (saddam).
because the world is full of dictators !!!

how can you judge One single guy on war crimes and tyranic behavior .... when 20 others are doing the same?

the arab countries remain silent, because 19 of these countries are ran by dictators.
the international community remains silent  because EVERY FUCKIN BODY is playing along / doing business with dictators.


do not hate saddam guys, your car is running on Oil he sold to your government, shaking hands and drinking tea with your ministers :)


PEACE

oh and happy new year :)

and you're saying Americans are dumb??  :rofl:


I didn't see the show you are talking about, but I would say its safe to say in New York City, of all places, that there are plenty or arab-americans and Iraqi-Americans who do have a personal stake in what happens in the middle east and in Iraq.  So while it might not matter to everyone (I personally could have given a rats ass about saddam being executed) to some people here in America it did.

Some of your post is nothing more than ignorant bigotry.  And I thought I was over my "french are arrogant assholes" phase.  Seriously, don't judge 300 million people by two interviews given on the streets of New York.   : ok:         

i know that's why i was posting that off topic and said it was quite "fun"' to watch.
for HannaHat > the "montana does not exist" thing is a private joke with some of my american friends. sorry.
and no they were not arab americans.

just like some guys here that CANNOT stand saddam and would drink the blood of all the iraqis to see him dead .... just wierd to take new issues like that so personnaly.

but again. that was not the main point of my post , lets talk about more constructive things :)

I know that I'm relieved to hear that you don't truly believe Montana doesn't exist.  I have a couple of friends from Montana, one of whom takes great joy in trying to convince the gullible that Montana just got modern toilets and running water within the last five years.  It's quite fun to watch people say, "Really?"

Back on topic:

I know I don't take the death of Saddam personally (i.e. I take no joy in it, I haven't gone into the street and fired weapons into the air, etc.), except that I'm against the death penalty, so I suppose it's personal in that sense. 

Slightly off-topic, but relating to the death penalty:

NJ panel urges death penalty abolishment

By BETH DeFALCO, Associated Press Writer 17 minutes ago

TRENTON, N.J. - A special commission recommended abolishing capital punishment in the Garden State and replacing it with life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, saying the death penalty costs taxpayers more than paying for prisoners to serve life terms.

The report released Tuesday, authored by a 13-member commission created in late 2005 by the Legislature, also cited other states reconsidering the death penalty, federal court moves to restrict executions of the mentally retarded and juveniles, and religious opposition to the punishment.

The governor favors abolishing the death penalty, as do leaders of both houses of the Legislature.

"There is increasing evidence that the death penalty is inconsistent with evolving standards of decency," the report said.

The commission cited a number of conflicting studies in concluding that there is no "compelling evidence" that the state's death penalty deters people from committing murders.

It said the state would save money by abolishing the death penalty: The public defender's office estimated a switch would save it nearly $1.5 million a year, corrections officials said they would save roughly $1 million over the lifetime of each condemned inmate, and the courts also could see reduced costs.

Gov. Jon S. Corzine, a Democrat, said he would work to ensure the death penalty is taken off the books. New Jersey would be the first state to abolish the death penalty legislatively since the
U.S. Supreme Court reinstated capital punishment in 1976.

"As someone who has long opposed the death penalty, I look forward to working with the Legislature to implement the recommendations outlined in the report," Corzine said in statement.

Republicans bashed the report's findings.

"The Democrats' radical agenda is out-of-touch with the values of millions of New Jerseyans," said state Sen. Nicholas Asselta.

The report was also decried by some survivors of people who were slain by the nine men now on New Jersey's death row.

Marilyn Flax said she vividly recalled phone conversations with her husband's killer, John Martini Sr., who was convicted in 1991 of kidnapping Fair Lawn warehouse manager Irving Flax and then murdering him after getting $25,000 of a $100,000 ransom.

"I spoke to my husband's killer four times on the phone, hearing how he pretended to let him go," she said. "The last words I heard from my husband, in a piercing, screaming voice, were `Give him the money, or he'll kill me.'"

She said allowing Martini to live would be an insult.

The state's last execution was in 1963.

If lawmakers and Corzine implement the commission's recommendation, New Jersey would become the 13th state without a death penalty. New Jersey was the third state to impose a death penalty moratorium to study the issue, behind Maryland and Illinois.

That seriously gives me the chills.  To imagine a loved one of mine in that situation, to truly put yourselves (and the person you love) in those shoes should shake anyone to the core.  It's easy to say the death penalty is bad and immoral blah blah blah, until someone you know is screaming for mercy and begging for their life.  To me its the same arguement as the pro-life people who say "no abortions no matter what", that is until it's THEIR daughter who is brutally gang raped and impregnated by some animal barely fit to be called human, or these douche bags who say war war war, but not MY son or daughter!!  let your kids go fight my battles......

I'm glad I don't live in New Jersey.

My objections to the death penalty have little to do with a lack of sympathy for victims and their loved ones. 

My main objection is that I simply believe that it is wrong for the state to kill its own people.  The execution of a state's own population has been used for thousands of years to crack down on any who oppose their government.  While this may not apply to the US as much as to other places, executions have always been a way for governments to silence the will of the people for change. 

In addition, it is not a successful deterrent.  There have been enough studies to establish that.  The argument about doing it to reduce the costs of incarcerating prisoners for life is among the most cold and callous arguments I've ever heard.  Killing someone to save a few dollars is unacceptable.   

Perhaps you should read about the number of death row inmates eventually exonerated by DNA evidence, maybe thatll give you chills as well as an understanding that the thirst for vengence of a victims family shouldnt and doesnt define justice.

i didn't say it did, nor did i say we should just "fry em' all".  I think you completely missed the point of my post which was its easy for us on the outside to say what should and should not be law, until those crimes actually happen to us or those we love.  when the shoes on the other foot, its funny how people are quick to change their minds.  you could argue it works both ways I suppose.  Somemone who is a staunch supporter of the death penalty might not be so supportive if they were to be wrongly convicted of a crime and sentenced to death.....

for the record i only believe in the death penalty in cases that can use DNA evidence, mass eye witnesses, video tape and other things that would pass as irrefutable proof.

The "shoe on the other foot" argument certainly is true.  The problem is that, if someone who supports the death penalty is wrongly convicted, then he/she KNOWS that it's wrong in this case.  If someone is against it and has a loved one murdered, they're not really acting from a standpoint of rationality.  Of course they want vengeance.  I can't blame them for that.  I would too.  The wishes of the victim's family, however passionately pleaded, do not equate with what is right, though.  Justice is served when a murderer is convicted.  Surely we can recognize, as a society, that there is a difference between justice and vengeance, and that one is desirable while the other may not always be so.  In their grief, these families want to hurt someone who hurt them.  Of course, they're also hurting the family of the convicted man.   

freedom78 speaks the truth :)

I think Sadaam was definitely a way for the US to camoflauge the enormous errors that were made. Kind of a way to trick the people into believing things were being accomplished. Like causing an explosion over here to divert everyone's attention away from what is really going on over there.


That being said, It's definitely not a bad thing that he got removed and now executed, it was gone about the wrong way but the end result is still good in my opinion.

I find any execution disgusting.

I feel that people who the video of him getting hung are pretty sick.

I don't feel anyone should be killed by anyone, even if they killed someone else.

He should have been given life in prison.

Don't feel that by killing him that it does anything really for the people that died.

Oh well...

A guy rapes and kills your mom and sister then bashes your dads brains in.

Would u still say the same?

Its easy for people not directly affected by something to say this or that, but why should someone who committed so many horrible acts be allowed to live comfortably in a jail cell with books, TV, food etc etc?

no it's easy to speak thu emotions and anger.
since when anger and rage speak truth and wisdom?

lets go back on saddam's case and what's happening there.

for years the chiite and sunnite have been living together, or at least they never went that far in hatred and civil war.
now we have that kinda of tension in that land.

i'm sorry, as much as we have to fight terrorism and extremism

the usa pretty much fucked up everything.
they are turning the region into hell. they are radicalizing a lot of youg kids.
they are even turning their only last friend there, Jordan, into a explisve bubble, the last stable country is about to turn around.
the whole saddam's family is there, in Amman, i even ate in the most expensive restaurant there, a IRAQI restaurant where saddam's daughter eat all the time when she comes with her luxuous american SUV.

jordan is the US friend, US military is strong there, and they're highest guest are saddam's family. how paradoxal is that?

Bush literraly FUCKED UP the whole word.
911 was not his fault, but instead of fixing the zones of tensions, with the help of the international community, he pretty much did the same mistakes his predecessors did, just worst.


PEACE !

Looks like they arrested the guy who taped the hanging on his cell phone.

Of course we wouldn't say the same!  I'm not blaming the family for wanting revenge.  If put in their place, I'm sure most would.  But these people aren't reasonable.  They're dealing with grief, and it shouldn't be any surprise that they want to cause some pain to those who've hurt them.  We do not succumb to the wishes of every grief stricken family member of a victim!  Should they want to serve the execution themselves, by strangulation or gunshot, it would not be permitted.  In the end, victims' families' suffering and grief does not end with the execution of a murderer.  It only extends that grief to his/her family.  They want to hurt, as they have been hurt, and that's not right.  Through grief, they may not realize that this is wrong, or they may not care.  I can't blame them, either way.  But, we and the state shouldn't hurt others simply to satisfy this urge.  This is not an "eye for an eye" system of punishment (in the US).  We do not rape the rapists (though what happens to them once they're IN prison is another matter).  We do not burn down the homes of the arsonists.  And we do not molest the children of the child molesters.  We don't do these things, because we realize that it's no more "right" to do it as a form of justice than it was when it was done the first time, as a form of crime.  The only difference between these crimes and murder is that we don't have the balls to tell the family that justice and vengeance are NOT the same thing.     


I don't know that living in prison is comfortable.  If it were, maybe we'd all commit crimes so that we could vacation there.  The way you describe it, it sounds nice...very relaxing.  I can't imagine there are many in prison who wouldn't rather be elsewhere.   

theory doesnt apply here.

i dont believe in it and thats all too it.

i'm with the vatican on this one.

most (def not all) I would imagine weren't living comfortable lives BEFORE they were in prison (otherwise, why commit a crime risking you'd go to jail in the first place).  prison isn't a picnic, but you get fed, housed, clothed and entertained.  why should an honest, law abiding person on minimum wage struggle to have those things when a piece of shit multiple rapist/murder gets them for free?

I agree with HannaHat's statement, "why should an honest, law abiding person on minimum wage struggle to have those things when a piece of shit multiple rapist/murder gets them for free?"

But, my solution is much more simple.  Enforce much more severe penalties for the above-mentioned crimes.  Death is a luxury for these horrible people.  A cell with no human comforts or companionship is 1000 times worse.  No tv, no books, no writing imp[lements, no human interaction whatsoever, and bland sustenance to survive.

This is only for "lifers" convicted of violent crimes.  That would be a hell of a deterrent, trust me. 

i don't think in muder cases a deterrant is going to lower the number of muders.  I don't have stats, but i would guess that a large number of murders are not premeditated or planned - crimes of passion as they are called.  So someone who walks in on his wife fucking the mail man isn't going to stop and think "well if i murder this guy and my slut wife then i'll be in a hole for 100 years", no, i think they are thinking "that fucking bitccchhhh is gonna diiiieeee" heheh.

To me the death penalty has always been about justice (not vengeance).  If you take the life of someone else, you should lose the priveledge of having your own.  it keeps society safe from you ever doing it again. 

i do like the idea of murderers being put away in a dark hole too, but i can only imagine the cost of that as well as the space issues.  I"m sure you'd have people crying that that was "cruel and unusual" punishment as well. 

One more thing...in response to D's statement: ?"A guy rapes and kills your mom and sister then bashes your dads brains in.

Would u still say the same?"

The answer in my eyes lies with my previous post. ?Knowing he was to rot away like I described in the previous post, oh yeah, I'd feel good about that...........but....if I found him before all of that, I can say that he wouldn't be safe. ?It's natural impulse, the whole "eye for an eye." ?Naturally, you'd want to give him what he gave your family, but, we have to hope for the rest of our loved ones' sakes that we control our impulses unlike the murderer. ?Sinking to their level isn't admirable in the least. ?:no:

I just read hannahat's last post while posting this one, hahah that's great!  "Cruel and unusual," ha!  I'd be a Democrat unlike all others I guess.  Let's hear the neo-cons say I'm soft on crime!!!   :rofl:

just to clarify, I didn't say it would be "cruel and unusual" -- i think it would be awesome  : ok:    But i'm sure there would be a few groups who would call that isolation "mean".

Don't worry Hanna, I knew you had common sense!   8)  If I was at my press conference, and someone mentioned that treatment was "mean," I'd say, "You're damn right it's mean!"  Next, I'll read a grizzly description of the murder scene...the children left behind...etc., etc.

EXACTLY.  the bleeding hearts always forget that side of the coin.   I think crime scene photos should be mandatory viewing for jurors/judges when they come up with their sentencing....

I think there's certainly an argument to be made about the privileges violent prisoners get, but that argument has little to do with death.  It's not as if we have two choices: prison with all the fixins or death.  I'd also argue that freedom to come and go as you choose is a greater luxury than any other, and is one that is, of course, denied to these offenders. 

Being fed, housed, and clothed aren't luxuries.  Those are basic human needs, and denial of those would be cruel. 

Doesn't 1st degree murder carry a mandatory life sentence in many states?  I'm just not certain this would be that relevant.  Also, I'm not crazy about trying to play on a judges emotions.  They're meant to be neutral, and in most case they simply rubber stamp the sentence that the jury recommends.

I dare you to find a line in any of my rants a spot where I denied the "life in prison" lot food, shelter, or clothing.  Nope, I sure didn't.  Maybe you want to try the "being deprived of human companionship" angle?  If people call that cruel, tough sh!t. 

Actually, I think prisoners are more likely to have an issue with forced human companionship (of the anal variety).  I've always thought that was the price they paid for the free food, clothing and shelter.

Ha, funny, yeah I think that's a concern of new inmates.  I still think my idea is alot scarier.  Hell, from what ya see, that just becomes normal everyday activity anyway.

I'm not sure if by "companionship" you mean human contact or sex.  If you mean sex, I'd say it's no more cruel than being a dorky teenager!

I'm sorry I didn't specify.  In earlier posts I mentioned it meant no human contact period.  No fellow inmates, no prison staff, no family...hell, if they need medical intervention, I want the doctor in a freaking space-suit.  It would be a truly awful existence.

the facts/evidence of a muder scene are just that - facts and evidence.  if they are disturbing, that is a secondary effect.  people should see what true evil can do before they pass judgement on it.

I don't have a problem with them being presented as facts and evidence.  The problem is that they're presented as such during the case and, I would imagine, this is repeated somewhat during the sentencing phase.  I'm no lawyer, but the ridiculous amounts of coverage given to trials in this country seems to remind me that each side gets to make a case in the sentencing phase.  The prosecution parades the victim's family, and they talk about the saint that was their lost family member, etc.; the defense parades the defendant's family, and they talk about how he was a good kid, and wanted to be a veterinarian.  It's all a big spectacle, considering that the guy is already convicted and is facing a mandatory minimum life sentence.       

I think you're exaggerating now.....there are hundreds of murder cases a year, they all dont' make the national news.  what you described sounds like an OJ trial.

Murder cases make the news all the time.  Some are shown on CourtTV, others are discussed endlessly on cable news networks.  Yeah, the OJ trial kind of gave it a kick start, but it's still all over.  How long was that Scott Peterson trial on the news?  For a couple of months while she was missing, and then he was arrested, and then the trial, and then he was convicted, and then sentenced, and then there was a made for TV movie.  Do we focus in on every case like this?  Thankfully, no.  But when we latch on to one of 'em, it's a bombardment for months on end.  Anyway, the fact that they're on TV has little to do with my point...it's just the source of my knowledge about the point I was making.

Heres a new video of saddam after they hung him. Its pretty graphic.

http://ebaumsworld.com/2007/01/saddam-after-hanging.html

gross!  :hihi:   is that his tongue sticking out of that hole in his neck?

for the german / french people here, there is a good documentary on ARTE TV right now on Saddam's trial.
very interesting.