To surge or not to surge.....

[The Dog]

NOT!!!! (not the Borat "not" but a "to not surge")?

Thought on Premier Bush's speech?

Thoughts on the reaction from Congressman/women and senators??

Thoughts on the surge itself?

I only caught half the speech, was getting back from the gym.? Saw Obama's reaction - wow, he really really impresses me everytime I see him/hear him.? Should be a solid 08 candidate.

The surge....20,000 is like throwing a bucket of water on a forest fire.? its not enough. we need literally hundreds of thousands more troops to squelch the violence.

I do hope, if the dems do force bush to withdraw troops, that they have a plan in place for when AFTER we are not there.? simply saying goodbye to iraq won't be enough.? much like Bush had no plan after the main part of the invasion was over, the Dems can't make the same mistake and have no plan for after a withdrawal.

I'm glad Edwards had the balls to say we need to be talking to Iran and Syria.

If this surge doesn't work (which everyone involved is saying it won't) McCain is dead for 2008.  The sound bytes will be all over the place.  How sad that someone who was once known as a "maverick" and a moderate is now just a bush puppet.  i really hate seeing mccain like this.  i used to really like him.

[freedom78]

I only caught half the speech, was getting back from the gym.  Saw Obama's reaction - wow, he really really impresses me everytime I see him/hear him.  Should be a solid 08 candidate.

Obama needs to actually STAND for something...if he doesn't push any policy, he'll not survive the primaries.  He needs to pick an issue, get serious about it, about push legislation.  Iraq's a great issue to be against...but ALL the dems will be against it, so it doesn't help him.

I'm glad Edwards had the balls to say we need to be talking to Iran and Syria.

I agree that we should engage them, but Bush has the intellect of a middle school student.  And in middle school, when you "like" someone...you treat them shitty, or ignore them. 

[The Dog]

I only caught half the speech, was getting back from the gym.? Saw Obama's reaction - wow, he really really impresses me everytime I see him/hear him.? Should be a solid 08 candidate.

Obama needs to actually STAND for something...if he doesn't push any policy, he'll not survive the primaries.? He needs to pick an issue, get serious about it, about push legislation.? Iraq's a great issue to be against...but ALL the dems will be against it, so it doesn't help him.

I'm glad Edwards had the balls to say we need to be talking to Iran and Syria.

I agree that we should engage them, but Bush has the intellect of a middle school student.? And in middle school, when you "like" someone...you treat them shitty, or ignore them.?

Iraq IS the issue though.  If he comes out talking about global warming while kids are getting blown apart by IEDs he'll lose for sure.  Will be interesting to see how much mud slinging the dems do internally once the campaign for 08 kicks into high gear.

[freedom78]

I only caught half the speech, was getting back from the gym.  Saw Obama's reaction - wow, he really really impresses me everytime I see him/hear him.  Should be a solid 08 candidate.

Obama needs to actually STAND for something...if he doesn't push any policy, he'll not survive the primaries.  He needs to pick an issue, get serious about it, about push legislation.  Iraq's a great issue to be against...but ALL the dems will be against it, so it doesn't help him.

I'm glad Edwards had the balls to say we need to be talking to Iran and Syria.

I agree that we should engage them, but Bush has the intellect of a middle school student.  And in middle school, when you "like" someone...you treat them shitty, or ignore them. 

Iraq IS the issue though.  If he comes out talking about global warming while kids are getting blown apart by IEDs he'll lose for sure.  Will be interesting to see how much mud slinging the dems do internally once the campaign for 08 kicks into high gear.

I disagree that it's THE issue...at least not in the Dem primaries.  Tough to make a decision between a Senator who didn't support the war, but wasn't in a position to have to do so, a Senator who voted for it, but is critical of how it's been handled, another Senator who did the same, and so on.  There are other issues that he'll need to set himself apart.  To win just on Iraq, he'd have to become the poster boy of the Democratic criticism, and Hillary, Kerry, and anyone else running won't let that happen.  I don't think he should ignore it, and talk about other things.  I think he should supplement his resume, with other issues.  Is Iraq important?  Yeah, obviously.  But other things need to get done, and he hasn't done much, because he hasn't been there for long.  Now that the Dems have Congress, he needs to make his name.  If he makes it only on Iraq opposition, he'll be sharing that name with a LOT of other candidates. 

[The Dog]

I got you now.  yeah I agree.  there are def more problems then Iraq, but it is the one that the american people want taken care of.  but yeah i agree with you, come the primaries the candidates stance and past votes on other issues will become more important.

Anyways....lets get back on topic...


thoughts on the surge??

[freedom78]

thoughts on the surge??

Too little, too late.  Compromise is good.  I'm all for it.  But compromise hurt us in this war.  We compromised between a MASSIVE occupation to shut that country down, and a MINIMAL occupation, with a largely Iraqi controlled post-war scheme.  Either would have worked better than our middle of the road option, that keeps competent forces (i.e. American/British, etc.) low enough so as to not be entirely effective, and high enough as to be a constant reminder that they don't really control their own country.  Obviously, foreign troops anywhere are going to be a cause of friction and, usually, violence.  If there are enough of them, the resistance doesn't have a chance.  If there are very few of them, a resistance lacks legitimacy.  We violated both principles, and now it's a shit storm. 

Standing down the Iraqi army was a BIG mistake, I think.  Not only does it have to be rebuilt/retrained, but those dismissed have probably supported the insurgency to some extent. 

There are two issues: the insurgency/secular violence problem, which is mostly Iraqis, and the terrorists, which are mostly non-Iraqis (or at least non-Iraqi led).  If we didn't screw up in the first place, I'm sure the insurgency/secular problem would be less.  But a surge now will not fix it.

[SLCPUNK]

It?s the same old batch of lies. Not once did he mention the real focal point of the war, which is the Baath Party of Iraq. That is who we are fighting in Anbar, not Al Queda. Al Queda plays a small role in Iraq, even the US Army admits this. To further his argument he turns them into ?Islamic Fundamentalists? , keeping the same old lie alive. The real purpose of the Iraq War was regime change, and had nothing to do with terrorism.

[SLCPUNK]

By NANCY BENAC, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 6 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Seventy percent of Americans oppose sending more troops to
Iraq, according to a new poll that provides a devastatingly blunt response to
President Bush's plan to bolster military forces there.

All sides in the Iraq debate are keenly aware of mounting public dissatisfaction with the situation: Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice said Thursday it's one thing on which all Americans ? including administration officials ? are united.

Yet the Associated Press-Ipsos poll found widespread disagreement with the Bush administration over its proposed solution, and growing skepticism that the United States made the right decision in going to war in the first place.

Just as 70 percent of Americans oppose sending more troops to Iraq, a like number don't think such an increase would help stabilize the situation there, the poll suggested. When asked to name the most important problem facing the U.S., 38 percent of those polled volunteered war, up significantly from 24 percent three months ago.

The AP-Ipsos telephone survey of 1,002 adults was conducted Monday through Wednesday night, when the president made his speech calling for an increase in troops. News had already surfaced before the polling period that Bush planned to boost U.S. forces in Iraq.

The public's concern over Iraq was a prominent topic on Capitol Hill on Thursday as legislators reacted to the president's plan to increase troop levels by 21,500.

Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Joseph Biden (news, bio, voting record), D-Del., harked back to the Vietnam War as he warned Rice that any solution to the Iraq problem must have public support. "They've got to sign on," he told her.

Sen. Barbara Boxer (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif., told Rice: "You are not listening to the American people. ... And you wonder why there is a dark cloud of skepticism and pessimism over this nation."

But Republican Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record) of Arizona said it would be an oversimplification to think that people just want the United States out of Iraq.

"They're understandably frustrated, they're understandably saddened," he said. "But if you can show the American people that there is a way forward to success, and also describe to them the consequences of failure, I believe this policy can be supported."

Iraq is a drag on Bush's overall job approval rating, too. That rating is at 32 percent in the latest survey, a new low in AP-Ipsos polling.

Just 35 percent of Americans think it was right for the United States to go to war, another record low in AP polling and a reversal from two years ago when two-thirds of Americans thought it was the correct move. Sixty percent, meanwhile, think it is unlikely that a stable, democratic Iraqi government will be established.

Democrats are far more inclined to oppose an increase of troops, with 87 percent against the idea, compared with 42 percent of Republicans.

Opposition to boosting troop levels is highest in the Northeast, where 79 percent of those surveyed were against the idea. That compares with 68 percent in the South and 67 percent in the Midwest and West.

The survey had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

[TAP]

Wonder how this will affect McCain's campaign, isn't he using increased troop numbers in Iraq as one of his main platforms?

[The Dog]

Wonder how this will affect McCain's campaign, isn't he using increased troop numbers in Iraq as one of his main platforms?

He shot himself in the foot by aligning with Bush.  Very sad really, his pandering has cost him the election.  This surge will most likely not work and his call for more troops is just goint to be replayed over and over by his opponenets.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

I am one of the few who support the surge.

Something needs to be done differently than before since our current plan is failing somewhat miserably regarding security in Iraq.

To look at the political side of things, this troop sure will not guarantee results, I understand why the democrats ( and some republicans) disagree with the surge. But what is their alternative plan for Iraq? Start withdrawing now? The Maliki government would not stand a chance and we'd have an even bigger mess on our hands that we started.

There are positive things happening in Iraq, but are outnumbered by the things going wrong and the media will only tell us what is not going right rather than what is.

We went into Iraq. We never should have. But the US needs to clean up its mess correctly. Leaving it a mess is not an option.

[The Dog]

I am one of the few who support the surge.

Something needs to be done differently than before since our current plan is failing somewhat miserably regarding security in Iraq.

To look at the political side of things, this troop sure will not guarantee results, I understand why the democrats ( and some republicans) disagree with the surge. But what is their alternative plan for Iraq? Start withdrawing now? The Maliki government would not stand a chance and we'd have an even bigger mess on our hands that we started.

There are positive things happening in Iraq, but are outnumbered by the things going wrong and the media will only tell us what is not going right rather than what is.

We went into Iraq. We never should have. But the US needs to clean up its mess correctly. Leaving it a mess is not an option.

I do agree with most of what you're saying.  I think we need to withdraw, but we DEFINITELY need a plan for after that.  simply leaving and saying "whooops, our bad" is NOT an option.  I hope the Dems have thought this through..... 

Just as bush had no plan for post major battle, the dems need a plan for post withdrawal.

[Axl4Prez2004]

That's the problem with Bush...the penetration's so easy, but it's so hard to pull out! 
...and now we're stuck with the consequences.   

I feel like I'm Adrian yelling down the staircase to George W., "You can't win!!!"  When your enemy can hide amongst the women and children and/or in holy shrines, you as an army are fucked. 

The surge will do nothing to change what is happening in Iraq.  A withdrawal would do just the same.  This was the most hair-brained invasion/occupation...ugh, I feel like I've been kicked in the balls just thinking about it.   

[The Dog]

That's the problem with Bush...the penetration's so easy, but it's so hard to pull out!?
...and now we're stuck with the consequences.? ?

I feel like I'm Adrian yelling down the staircase to George W., "You can't win!!!"? When your enemy can hide amongst the women and children and/or in holy shrines, you as an army are fucked.?

The surge will do nothing to change what is happening in Iraq.? A withdrawal would do just the same.? This was the most hair-brained invasion/occupation...ugh, I feel like I've been kicked in the balls just thinking about it.? ?

So what do you suggest?  And you want to be my president!?!?!?   

I know the feeling (about being kicked in the nuts).  No matter what the US does it won't end good for us, our allies and/or our interests.  Its just a question of how little damage can we do to oursleves and the region.  I think this surge is just going to add fuel to the fire.

[The Dog]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States could start withdrawing forces from Iraq this year if the additional troops being sent to Baghdad reduce violence significantly, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said on Friday.

"If these operations actually work you could begin to see a lightening of the U.S. footprint both in Baghdad and Iraq itself," Gates told the Senate Armed Services Committee.

[SLCPUNK]

'We've Been So Selfish'

January 10, 2007 | Issue 43?02


WASHINGTON, DC?Citing a desire to finally make a difference in Iraq, in the past two weeks, more than 800,000 young people from upper-middle- and upper-class families have put aside their education, careers, and physical well-being to enlist in the military, new data from the Department Of Defense shows.

"I don't know if it was the safety and comfort of the holidays or what, but I realized that my affluence and ease of living comes at a cost," said Private Jonathan Grace, 18, who was to commence studies at Dartmouth College next fall, but will instead attend 12 weeks of basic training before being deployed to Fallujah with the 1st Army Battalion. "I just looked at my parents in their cashmere sweaters and thought, 'Who am I to go to an elite liberal arts college and spend all my time reading while, in the real world, thousands of kids my age are sacrificing their lives for our country?' It's not right."

Added Grace: "Whether I agree with the war or not, our president needs us, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let our least advantaged citizens bear the brunt of this awesome burden."

At the on-campus temporary recruitment table at Reed College in Portland, OR, the line of students eager to sign up for active duty stretched around the block Monday. Recruiters across the country reported a similar trend, with scores of young people asking how soon they could be ready to go to battle in Iraq.

"They don't have these recruitment centers where I live," said Daniel Feldman, 26, who resides in the affluent neighborhood of Brookline, MA and recently passed his bar exam. "I didn't realize you could just sign up, but now that I do, all of my friends from law school, yoga class, and temple are going to join, too. And not the Reserves either. We're talking down and dirty, right on the front lines."

Drill sergeants at boot camps in South Carolina and San Diego, though at first skeptical of the recent crop of potential Marines, said they have been impressed by their work ethic, claiming the wealthy youngsters' desire to "do their part" is undeniable.

"They haven't complained once since getting here," Sergeant Greg Forenczek said of the new upper-crust recruits. "Usually, after the first two hours, you know who's going to get dismissed early, but not with these kids. There's a fire in their eyes?a fearless passion to become U.S. soldiers"

"They inspire me," Forenczek added.

New Marine Sierra Pettingill, a 22-year-old sociology major who left Duke University before her final semester, said she felt compelled to serve after realizing she did not have a single acquaintance who had died, or even served, in Iraq.

"I was sending out invitations to my champagne-brunch birthday get-together when I heard that U.S. military casualties in Iraq had reached 2,900," Pettingill said. "I decided then and there that I would not allow this inherently unequal system to perpetuate any longer, no matter how much I want to go have martini night at the Oak Room."

Though most of the privileged enlistee youths said they were motivated by a newfound concern that America's reputation could be permanently damaged with a loss in Iraq, others have cited the examples set by their relatives as instrumental in their decision to join.

"My great-great-great-great grandfather would not have been able to make a fortune in the fur trade and real-estate business had it not been for the brave people who fought in the Revolutionary War," said 24-year-old John Jacob Astor VIII, who has put all of his business ventures on hold indefinitely. "My children are going to know the importance of stepping up to the plate when their nation needs them."

"From this day forth, the Astor name will be synonymous with sacrifice," he added.

U.S. Gen. John Abizaid, who has in the past argued against a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, now says that with the influx of nearly a million troops expected to be on the ground Feb. 1, the region should be stabilized within six weeks.

[Axl4Prez2004]

^Let me guess...that's The Onion, right?   

If this debacle in Iraq wasn't so awful, I'd find it funny.   

[Vicious Wishes]

Whatever you feel about Iraq, you never hear anything positive, so...http://snopes.com/photos/military/gebhardt.asp

[SLCPUNK]

The picture is heart warming for sure. I could not imagine not trying to comfort a child if I had the opportunity to do so, especially in such a horrible environment.

I must disagree : The "we never hear anything good about the war" is a branch on the "liberal media bias" tree the right wing likes to lie about all the time. I've seen plenty of positive reports about Iraq, including a great piece 60 minutes ran (and reran) not long ago.

[Prometheus]

The picture is heart warming for sure. I could not imagine not trying to comfort a child if I had the opportunity to do so, especially in such a horrible environment.

I must disagree : The "we never hear anything good about the war" is a branch on the "liberal media bias" tree the right wing likes to lie about all the time. I've seen plenty of positive reports about Iraq, including a great piece 60 minutes ran (and reran) not long ago.

but notice hes a zoomie..... that may not count for some....