Barry Bond's records

[Krispy Kreme]

Some sports people are saying his records should be erased because of alleged steroid use. I say that is BS because there  is no  way to tell if the pitchers he faced were also using. Plus, since steroids became illegal in 2003, he never failed a single test. If he did use, it was before it was  officially illegal. So I think the press is picking on him, maybe because he was surly in the past, but maybe because he is black and chasing Ruth. So what do you think--should he records be erased from baseball history?

[Markus Asraelius]

If he used steroids, then he's guilty. And, it isn't because he's black. It's because he cheated and he lied about using steriods. Plus, he's an asshole.

Anybody who used steroids to acheive their stats and records in baseball should not be allowed to be in the recordbooks.

[gilld1]

Officially illegal?  They are against the law and have been for some time.  All the coked up players in the 80s had to face the off field questions and punishments for using their  "performance enhancers."  Let him have the fucking records, he'll be dead in a few years (see Lyle Alzado).

[Mal Brossard]

Read Game of Shadows.  It has all the damning evidence against Bonds and is a hell of a good read for anyone who wants his steroid-infused beachball head to just go away.

[illusionone]

Some sports people are saying his records should be erased because of alleged steroid use. I say that is BS because there? is no? way to tell if the pitchers he faced were also using. Plus, since steroids became illegal in 2003, he never failed a single test. If he did use, it was before it was? officially illegal. So I think the press is picking on him, maybe because he was surly in the past, but maybe because he is black and chasing Ruth. So what do you think--should he records be erased from baseball history?

I hate the guy, but I do agree with some of your points.  the issue I have is they should suspend him until the decide either way.  I would hate to see him break another record before this thing gets figured out.

I personally think he is guilty

[Drew]

He's a cheater and a big jerk.

I think his records atleast should have an astract* if not a line drawn through both his name and records. Barry Bonds[/b]. Like that.

[D]

Barry Bonds records should absolutely 100 percent count.


Let me ask u guys a couple very simple questions.


1.Did Barry Bonds ever test positive for steroids?

2. Were steroids illegal when Bonds allegedly took them?





He didnt break any baseball rules therefore they count.

[Markus Asraelius]

Sorry, D can't totally agree with you there.

If it's found that he tested positive for steriods in the present or that there was hardcore evidence aganist him that he took steriods back then, then his records should be taken away.

[Timothy]

if it's true he did use steriods.Then I say let him keep the recordes but don't let him in the hall of fame.


Cause if Pete Rose isn't then this ass clown shouldn't be either.

[oldgunsfan]

Personally i don't think his HR record should.? And their is a precedent for such action being taken.? In Olympic sports like track and field or swimming if a competitor has been found to be on performance enhancing drugs, there records are erased from the record books.? How many times has the 100 m dash record been disallowed because of steriods.

As for the fact that it wasn't illegal till 2003.? That's not entirely true.? They were not allowed but they didn't have a drug testing policy in place until 2003.? Plus, they are illegal in the US unless prescribed by a doctor so to say they were legal is just not true.

But I don't think it should just be Bond's either.  I think it should include Sosa, McGuire, Palmiero. 

[D]

Personally i don't think his HR record should.? And their is a precedent for such action being taken.? In Olympic sports like track and field or swimming if a competitor has been found to be on performance enhancing drugs, there records are erased from the record books.? How many times has the 100 m dash record been disallowed because of steriods.

As for the fact that it wasn't illegal till 2003.? That's not entirely true.? They were not allowed but they didn't have a drug testing policy in place until 2003.? Plus, they are illegal in the US unless prescribed by a doctor so to say they were legal is just not true.

But I don't think it should just be Bond's either.? I think it should include Sosa, McGuire, Palmiero.?

Thats the point.

Bonds has never tested positive. Steroids WERE NOT ILLEGAL in baseball when he supposedly took them so it doesnt matter anyway.

[Kujo]

Well I think it interesting that he hasnt failed a test since the testing was implemented, its hard to say if he is still on the same HR pace because he didnt play much to end last year, and he started injured his year.

However I dont have a problem with removing his HR record if it is proven that he was on steroids, however you cant just single him out. If you take away his 74. McGwires 70 has to go, Sosa's 66 or whatever it was has to go and that gives Roger Maris the single season record again, with an asterik of course.

Mostly I'm tired of Bonds being singled out because of what he might have done, yet other people who had as significant a change in their physique go completely unchallenged. Anyone remember Lenny Dykstra? When he came up with the Mets in 85-86, the planes taking off from LaGuardia could knock his scrawny ass over in centerfield. By the time he was in the World Series with Philly in 93 he looked like a fire hydrant with muscles. Yet the only grief he ever caught was for using chewing tobacco.

I do believe that Bonds used something, but if you look at his stats from around the time that he started getting unusually big, he already had Hall of Fame caliber numbers.

[D]

It gets on my nerves when people blame race and say people are racist.

that is bullshit.

they try to use the Jason Giambi argument saying "Giambi is an admitted steroid user but yet he is loved"

Giambi wasnt loved that season he had the stomach ailment and hit 208, they were ready to send his ass to the minors cause it appeared that his entire career was thanks to steroids cause without them he was horrible.

last 2 seasons however he hit 31 HRs last year one comeback player of the year,and this year he is off to an amazing season.

he is a great story cause it shows that he didnt need steroids to be great and its a lesson to kids comin up that if u work hard u dont have to cheat.

thats why he is getting loved now.

[Kujo]

Well not everyone that hates Bonds is racist but there are probably 3 main groups that those that hate him would fall into:

1. Hate him because he acts like an asshole
2. Hate him because he allegedly( ) used steroids
3. Hate him because he is black

[sandman]

D - as usual, you're right on regarding a sports issue.

i hate bonds. but steroids weren't illegal. baseball knew everyone was on them, but they were loving what was going on. turning their heads cause HRs increase fan interest, which equals more $$$.

and i believe bonds is a very competitive guy. he was the best. all of a sudden, jerk offs like mcqwire and sosa are getting more press. and then they are recognized as the greatest modern HR hitters . when EVERYONE knew they were juicing.

so bonds gets frustrated and wants to cement his place as the greatest modern day hitter. so he decides to get every edge he can get to prove it. especially if MLB is letting it happen.

[BLS-Pride]

Barry Bonds is scum. And I refuse ot watch a cheater break one of the most important records in the game today. Ruth's 714 means so much to a lot of people maybe even more that Arron's 744. And the worse part is he lies and lies and lies again. Then he decides to have a relaity show on ESPN and TRY to make himself look like the victiom and everyone hates Barry. Well he deserves it. You cheat and then lie about it. Best in the game? Nope. Ruth was so much better that Bonds, Well according to Bonds he blows Ruth out of the water as a left handed hitter.. Yet Ruth has a lifetime average of I believe .340 give or take a few. So Bonds can shove the needle up his ass this time he doesn't deverse the record or and record.

[D]

Yeah but Babe Ruth didnt play against any of the Negro league competitors either so u have to take that into account. Ruth didnt necessarily face the greatest competition like Bonds has either.

Im not a Barry Bonds fan but facts are, he didnt break any baseball rules. Steroids only became illegal a couple years ago so there is absolutely nothing they can or should do about it.

[sandman]

it's not cheating if it's not illegal.

bonds did exactly what MLB wanted....bring excitement back to game after the strike of '94 hurt them so bad.

[mikegiuliana]

bonds took illegal steroids it's that simple.. You know he's guilty, he'll be caught eventually from testimony...  Just like giambi and mcgwire didn't take roids.. Canseco knew what was going on, these guys are frauds

[Mal Brossard]

Steroids were illegal to bring into the country and use without a prescription.  Players were getting suspended for cocaine and marijuana use since the late 1970's.  Why are steroids treated differently?

As for why I hate Bonds on kujo's scale, put me down for 1 and 2.  I don't think anyone hates him because he's black, but rather because of his views on race.  From Game of Shadows:

"They're just letting him do it because he's a white boy," Bonds said of McGwire and his chase of Maris's record.  The pursuit by Sosa, a Latino player from the Dominican Republic, was entertaining but doomed, Bonds declared.  As a matter of policy, "They'll never let him win," he said.

Get off it, Barry.  You've lived in affluent suburbs your whole life, your best boyhood friend, first wife, and most recent mistress are all white.  These aren't the Jim Crow days that your daddy played in. 

Bonds probably would be a 400-500 HR guy without steroids.  He would still be in good shape, rather than recovering from perpetual surgeries if he hadn't touched the roids.  He may be about to beat that "white boy" Babe Ruth (he has said he doesn't care about beating Hank Aaron's record, only Ruth's--racism, anyone?), but the spector of steroid use will forever be there.

As for Giambi and his big comeback season, all I have to say there is three letters-- HGH, human growth hormone.  There's no test for it, so players can still bulk up unnaturally and get away with it.

If Bonds et. al. get into the Hall of Fame, then we should be letting Pete Rose, Joe Jackson, Eddie Cicotte, and Hal Chase in as well.  But I bet Bonds would put up a stink about letting those "white boys" in.

[mikegiuliana]

bonds is a huge talent, but look how his homers went way up after a certain year...  Big mac hit 49 his rookie year so the potential was always there....  Bond's talent was magnified ten fold.... maybe his body is aching these days partly because of his use..

Eiother way he is great

ruth did it on hot dogs and beer, bonds on juice and talent


The point is what would ruth have done with today's technology and strength training and enhancers??

[Acquiesce]

Sorry, kujo, there is no allegedly. Bond's lawyer practically admitted as much when he was being interviewed by ESPN and asked why he wasn't suing for libel. He's not suing for libel because it is true!

The number one reason Bonds gets so much grief is because he already captured one record while on steroids and is closing in on the most sacred record in the game. It doesn't have much to do with race at all. Are there racists out there? I'm sure there are, but overall, people don't want to see someone cheat their way into the record books. It doesn't matter if it was against MLB's policy or not. The public doesn't want to waste their hard earned dollars on that crap.

It will be a sham if he breaks Aaron's record. It will be a slap in the face to Aaron and everything he had to endure to capture that record. That was so much more than just a man capturing the most sacred record in the game. A fraud like Barry Bonds should not be allowed anywhere near it.

[sandman]

bonds will probably retire as soon as he passes ruth. he's so broken down, i don't think he can pass aaron.

i hope bonds' knee gets blown out before he can pass ruth. roids has deteriorated his body so badly, his quality of life is awful, and is only getting worse. and he'll probably die young like lyle alzedo.

people hate bonds cause he's an asshole. he's the definition of a jerk. it has nothing to do with him being black. the whole world loves MJ.

[Mr Cowbell ?]

Read Game of Shadows.? It has all the damning evidence against Bonds and is a hell of a good read for anyone who wants his steroid-infused beachball head to just go away.

Look at Bonds in the late 80's when he was wih the Pirates.  In his prime of his career he was tiny as hell. Kinda strange that until Sosa and McGwire broke all the records in the mid to late 90's that barry comes into his prime and once his steroid use comes to to the forfront he stops using "special cremes" and his body is falling apart.  Regardless of some stupid point as to pitchers using drugs or not, it doesnt matter because the honest players still had to face them the same. Bonds knows he used them and he should retire before he breaks Hank Aaron's record.

[Mal Brossard]

You're right sandman.  Like I said before, he's only sticking around to pass Whitey Ruth's mark of 714.

Frankly, I hope if/when he passes Ruth, his knee tendons snap the moment he steps out of the batter's box.  A suitable end for him.  Or even better, what looks to be 714/715, snaps it as soon as he steps from the box. and gets robbed by someone making a great jumping catch at the wall.

I usually don't wish injury upon anyone, but for this douchebag, I'll make an exception.

[gilld1]

I think that the baseball gods agree because he got zapped in his gigantic (literally) head with that foul ball last weak.  Too bad it didn't DL him for awhile. 

[Acquiesce]

Yeah but Babe Ruth didnt play against any of the Negro league competitors either so u have to take that into account. Ruth didnt necessarily face the greatest competition like Bonds has either.

I was reading this thread again since Barry hit 714 and decided to respond to this.

Yes, that true Ruth didn't face any of the Negro League competitors, but he played in a more pitching dominated era than Barry. Barry Bonds plays in a era where pitching is watered down due to expansion and the 5 man rotation. Not to mention pitchers are more coddled now with the pitch count so he is facing a lot more mediore relievers than Babe Ruth had to face. The ball and bat has also changed over the years which has also contributed to the increased HR rate. Barry Bonds also has the benefit of better nutrition and medical technology than Babe Ruth had in his time.

To me, Babe Ruth is the greatest player of all time because he was so far ahead of his peers. He didn't just hit more home runs than anyone else, he hit more home runs than entire teams. In 1920, he hit more home runs than every single team except for the Philadelphia Phillies.  He was the first to ever get to just 30 ( plus the 1st to get to 40 and 50) homers and was able to double that amount in 1927 when he set a new record with 60 homers. His 1921 season is considered the best statistical season ever. Not to mention he hit 714 in 263 fewer games than it has taken Bonds to get there.

What also makes it amazing is that they didn't have the nutrition and medical technology we have today. Today, athletes maintain strict diets and train extremely hard to maximize their performance. They take all sorts of vitamins and supplements to help them out. Babe Ruth was the opposite of the modern athlete. He loved his beer and hot dogs. He had a large physique that would normally slow a player down, but yet he was an amazing athlete. He wasn't just amazing, he was so far ahead of everyone else and no one has ever dominated like he did. 92 years since he debuted and we haven't see anything like him. I don't think we ever will.

Lastly, my favorite Babe Ruth fact is that he had a career 2.28 ERA and was 48 games above .500 as a pitcher. Yes, Babe Ruth could do it all. Barry Bonds is good, but he is no Babe Ruth.

[Bill 213]

I think he should be dq'd from any records....but even though he does have it....I just hope there's a nice big fat asterick w/footnote beside his name in the record books.

[mikegiuliana]

man tied ruth and no one even cares, says a lot about bonds character.... Hit's 714 and it's like whatever

Nothing will be like the sosa mcgwire battle of 98

[Bill 213]

man tied ruth and no one even cares, says a lot about bonds character.... Hit's 714 and it's like whatever

Nothing will be like the sosa mcgwire battle of 98

It's not the fact that no one cares......it's the fact that everyone knows he did it with "assistance" so for most people it doens't technically count.  The thing about McGwire and Sosa is that...the great Canseco roid conspiracy didn't happen till after that, so there was still some hope in the sport.

[mikegiuliana]

man tied ruth and no one even cares, says a lot about bonds character.... Hit's 714 and it's like whatever

Nothing will be like the sosa mcgwire battle of 98

It's not the fact that no one cares......it's the fact that everyone knows he did it with "assistance" so for most people it doens't technically count.? The thing about McGwire and Sosa is that...the great Canseco roid conspiracy didn't happen till after that, so there was still some hope in the sport.

well you would have had to have been a knuckle head (public) to not know big mac was juicing

I saw the no black comp thing up there.. But when ruth did his no team was hitting as many homeruns as him so he was amazing regardless, he didn't have the weight training bonds did.. The idea he was able to be drunk and play so well just shows how great he was,.. Not to mention all the times he was suspended and that people like hank have 3-4 thousand more at bats then him.. Lets not forget ruth started as a pitcher so it could have been a lot more, nad he wa sa good pitcher. I'm sure the balls were'nt wound like today or changed as often.. Took power that's why hr's were rare.. Guys used the same bats for a long time, plus they weren't super light to have extr bat speed..

[oldgunsfan]

The Onion Sports
 
MLB To Place Asterisk, Pound Sign, Exclamation Point, Letter 'F' Next To Bonds' Name In Record Books
May 25, 2006 | Onion Sports

SAN FRANCISCO? Commissioner Bud Selig announced Wednesday that, once the Giants slugger retires, his name in the official MLB record books will be forever accompanied by an asterisk, followed by a pound sign and exclamation point, all preceded by the letter 'F'?a string of characters that, according to Selig, "will always be associated with Barry Bonds."

"When my children's grandchildren open up their Baseball Almanac a hundred years from now, they'll see this enduring, universally understood symbol right next to Barry's name," Selig said. "And when they do, they'll immediately know that this sequence of characters?F*#!?reflects history's attitude toward not only the conditions under which he was able to hit his home runs, but also the historical implications he had on the game and its records, the relationship he had with the media and fans during his momentous chase, and just the general atmosphere of baseball in an era he will come to embody."

"These symbols say more about Barry Bonds and his contributions to this sport than any mere number ever could," Selig added.

The decision, which Selig characterized as the only way to accurately convey that Barry Bonds hit his 714-plus home runs under "some pretty goddamn special circumstances," is reminiscent of a similar one made in 1961 by then-commissioner Ford Frick. Frick suggested that an asterisk be placed next to Roger Maris' single-season home-run record of 61, an annotation used to explain that Maris hit his home runs over the course of an expanded 162-game season rather than a 154-game season.

According Selig, the symbol that will be placed next to Bonds' name requires no further explanation.

"When people think of Roger Maris, they immediately think 'asterisk,'" Selig said. "And when people of this and future generations think of Barry Bonds, they will immediately think F*#!"

Most experts, fans, teammates, and those close to the seven-time MVP say that, while Maris was never able to adjust to the stigma of being remembered as a historical footnote, Bonds is already used to constantly hearing the phrase "F*#!" everywhere he goes.

Baseball fans around the country have applauded Selig's decision, with many agreeing that Bonds' accomplishments deserve to be emphasized in such a fashion, and with some even vehemently insisting that his name be accompanied by an even longer string of symbols and letters.

"The first thing I said when I saw Bonds hit No. 714 was, 'Aww, F*#!'" said Oakland resident Roger Jaffe, who was in attendance at the game during which Bonds tied Ruth, and who claims to have heard many fans mutter the exact same thing. "But the more I think about it, there are at least a thousand other variations on it that may be even more appropriate to describe Bonds and his career."

All-time home-run leader Hank Aaron contacted the chairman of the Society for American Baseball Research's records committee, saying that, should Bonds approach his home-run total of 755, he would like "some input as to what appears next to Bonds' name."

"I have been thinking about this for quite some time, and I have upwards of 200 very good suggestions that I think they might like to hear," Aaron said.

Major League Baseball has specified that the 'F'?asterisk?pound sign?exclamation point symbol will only appear next to Bonds' name in the all-time home-run category, with his name in other categories to be accompanied by symbols more fitting for that particular one, including: an "at" symbol, two dollar signs, a pound sign, an asterisk, and Nos. 1 and 3 (@$$#*13) next to his single-season home-run total of 73; two series of five asterisks?the first preceded by the letter 'M' and the second preceded by the letter 'F' (M***** F*****)?next to his single-season slugging-percentage record of .863; and a sequence of letters reading "The bastard used to be pretty goddamn good in his own right without the fucking steroids" next to his eight Gold Glove Awards.

"F*#! Barry Bonds, 714 F*#!^&% home runs," Selig said, reading a line out of the most updated version of this year's record book. "F*#! Barry Bonds."


http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48895&rss=1

[oldgunsfan]

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MLB Fines Russ Springer Negative $50,000 For Throwing At Bonds
May 25, 2006 | Onion Sports


HOUSTON?Astros relief pitcher Russ Springer has been awarded $50,000, the largest negative fine in baseball history, for intentionally throwing at Barry Bonds last Tuesday, the Astros reported. "After reviewing the tapes, there is no question in my mind that Springer purposefully attempted to strike Bonds, and therefore we have no choice but to give him the stiffest negative financial penalty possible," MLB vice president of on-field discipline Bob Watson said Wednesday. "Rest assured that we intend to deal with similar assaults on Bonds in at least this aggressive a fashion." Springer has said that he does not intend to contest either his fine or the mandatory five-day Tahitian resort suspension he has been scheduled to serve this offseason.

[Mal Brossard]

The Astros really need to look at Springer's control problems.  It took him 5 pitches to hit Bonds.  Bob Gibson would have done it with one.  While blindfolded.

HR #715.  Fuck him, his father, Willie Mays, the Giants as an organization, and all the other roid monsters before him that made this so acceptable to so many.

[oldgunsfan]

Well not everyone that hates Bonds is racist but there are probably 3 main groups that those that hate him would fall into:

1. Hate him because he acts like an asshole
2. Hate him because he allegedly( ) used steroids
3. Hate him because he is black

I hate him because of reasons 1 and 2

his color has nothing to do with it

Personally, I think he's the rascist

[gilld1]

Just a thought:  Would we even be discussing Bonds now if Griffey Jr. hadn't missed 3-4 seasons because of injury?  He has about 550 despite missing so much and with that sweet swing of his it's not a stretch by any means.

[Kujo]

Griffey definitely would be pretty damn close but I think Bonds would still be ahead of him.

Hopefully in a few years it wont matter as either Alex Rodriquez or Albert Pujols continue injury free and demolish the record themselves.

[Krispy Kreme]

Sorry, kujo, there is no allegedly. Bond's lawyer practically admitted as much when he was being interviewed by ESPN and asked why he wasn't suing for libel. He's not suing for libel because it is true!

The number one reason Bonds gets so much grief is because he already captured one record while on steroids and is closing in on the most sacred record in the game. It doesn't have much to do with race at all. Are there racists out there? I'm sure there are, but overall, people don't want to see someone cheat their way into the record books. It doesn't matter if it was against MLB's policy or not. The public doesn't want to waste their hard earned dollars on that crap.

It will be a sham if he breaks Aaron's record. It will be a slap in the face to Aaron and everything he had to endure to capture that record. That was so much more than just a man capturing the most sacred record in the game. A fraud like Barry Bonds should not be allowed anywhere near it.

The way Bonds is breaking down, there is no way he will reach Aaron.

[oldgunsfan]

Does Bonds' trainer refusal to testify against Bonds for steroid use futher implicate Bonds?  I would say so

[Krispy Kreme]

The DA is trying to line up friends, lovers, teamates, anyone who will testify so he can nail Bonds on perjury. Seems like overkill to me. They guy is finished playing ball, let him be.