Laney Amps

[MeanBone]

that's true, 40 watts is really loud. i had the amp for 2 days and already i'm gettin complains, and i only played twice. i think i'll save it t'ill i get it to the studio tomorrow.

if u want a practice amp, don't get a all tube 40watts amp, it's just too loud.

[Genesis]

Laney LC-15R or VC-15R.  Probably less than $600 and a lot better value than anything else you'd get in that price range.

Ok. What about the LC30-II?  The amps u mentioned have only one channel.
P.S: What exactly does Class A/B mean?
Thx.

[MeanBone]

 What is Class A?

Without getting too technical, all you really need to know about Class A is that it's a method of amplification that's been blown out of proportion?mostly due to marketing hype. Whenever an amplifier is referred to by a class of amplification it is always assumed that we're talking about the power amp, because all preamps are Class A. (Now it is certainly possible to set your preamp up as Class AB, but it would be so cumbersome no one has bothered to do so, nor will anyone ever bother.)

I think the reason Class A has become so hyped is because laymen tend to think Class A is synonymous with "Grade A." In other words, they believe Class A is somehow better because of the letter "A." This is an incorrect assumption. The reason Class AB was developed was to make up for the inefficencies of Class A power amplifiers. The reason for the letter "A" was because it's the first method of amplification that was developed, and therefore is also the simplest. This is why many old "student level" amps were Class A, because they are simple and therefore less expensive.

The vast majority of guitar amplifiers that claim to be Class A are actually something called "cathode biased," which really has nothing to do with the class of operation. This has led to the invention of a new non-technical phrase, "true Class A."


 What is true Class A?

The exact same thing as Class A. "True Class A" is a catch phrase that was invented by boutique builders who wanted to let buyers know that their amp actually was Class A like it claimed. However, like the phrase "Class A" it has also been subjected to abuse and hype. Here is an example..

    "Good features but the tube thing is really lame and ultimately just a marketing gimmick by Korg. Only true Class A tube circuitry is worth raving about and that would have cost Korg another 1000 dollars to include that- any other forms are just marketing gimmicks. Just like all the tube circuitry in effects pedals and cheap 200 dollar tube preamps- they are not Class A either."

    Anonymous review of the Korg Triton Extreme synthesize on harmony central

While I agree there is a certain level of hype when a tube is used in a synth and called "Extreme", the reviewer has absolutely no idea what he's talking about as far as Class A is concerned. The synth uses a 12AU7 preamp tube which, because of the nature of preamplification, is undoubtfully cathode biased Class A?or what the reviewer calls "true" Class A. The same goes for pedals with preamp tubes?all cathode biased Class A.

Remember, the only time Class AB is ever used is for power amps because of its greater power efficency. Preamplification is used to shape your tone?it is not used to create large amounts of power! The synthesizer (and aforementioned pedals) do not have power tubes to drive a speaker?which would also require an output transformer. The reviewer also fails to realize that Class A is far less expensive than Class AB to implement as preamplification?the $1000 extra claim is just ludicrous. I included this quote because it was a perfect example of the many who regurgitate misinformation and unwittingly spread hype. Be careful where you get your information! I've even met professional techs who honestly don't have a clue. Also, take everything your local GC guys say with a very large grain of salt.


 What is Class AB?

Basically, the audio-practicality of Class A combined with the efficency of Class B. Hence, Class AB.
Which sounds better: Class A or Class AB?

It depends on who you talk to, but it depends more so on the overall design. The most sought after amps in the world are probably the tweed Fender Bassman, Marshall Plexi, tweed Fender Deluxe, blackface Fender Twin Reverb, blackface Fender Super Reverb, Vox AC30, Ampeg SVT, and Marshall JCM800. The vast majority of modern amps are simply clones of these amps, or are slightly modified versions (i.e. more features). I'll let you in on a little secret.. they're all Class AB! Dun Dun Dunnn! Yes, the Vox AC30 isn't Class A like it claims, but cathode biased Class AB that's biased on the hot side. These amps are loved because their overall design is good; it really has little or nothing to do with the class of their power amp.

The most famous Class A amp is probably the Fender Champ.


How can I be sure if an amp really is Class A?

There's one way to be certain: if the amp only has one (1) power tube?like an old Fender Champ. If there's two or four power tubes the amp is more than likely Class AB. We could make a slightly better guess at ruling out Class A if we have the amp's schematic, but to know for sure we'd have to break out a function generator, oscilloscope, and dummy load?then run tests. Another hint: due to their inefficency and heat generation Class A amps tend to be very low wattage (i.e. if the amp is over 15 watts it's probably not Class A)

[Skeba]

The above, and a lot of other cool info tidbits can be found here:

http://studentweb.eku.edu/justin_holton/tubes.html

[MeanBone]

yes, i forgot to credit the source...

but that's an interesting read

[Miz]

In response to that atricle MeanBone
While something like an AC-30 or the above mentioned LC-15 are not class A (well actually, the AC-30 is at low volumes...), everyone calls them class A because of one feature which is integral to the sound of 'true' class A;- no negative feedback. So whilst not being class A, they will sound much more similar to class A than say a JCM or other high powered amp, which is what you want really.

Also, class A isn't necessarily cheaper, because you need an output transformer of far, far higher quality and reliability because it's always on.

But anyway, yes, if you want true class A by an epi valve junior or a bad cat mini.

In response to Genesis about the LC-30. It would be waaaaaaay too loud. You'd be better off buying two lower powered amps and A/B/Y-ing them. That would be more versatile too.

[jimmythegent]

I have an 80W Laney tube chorus amp and its nice
a real jazzy amp

[Genesis]

In response to Genesis about the LC-30. It would be waaaaaaay too loud. You'd be better off buying two lower powered amps and A/B/Y-ing them. That would be more versatile too.

I don't think I can afford two amps.?

Ok, explain something to me, coz i'm stupid. How do u play a tube amp with a single channel? The single channel is clean tone, right? Then how do u get distortion? By cranking the volume way up until the tubes saturate? Or is there a 'distortion' switch or something? Why do u use a footswitch with a single channel amp?

[conny]

How do u play a tube amp with a single channel? The single channel is clean tone, right? Then how do u get distortion? By cranking the volume way up until the tubes saturate?

That would be the traditional way.

Or is there a 'distortion' switch or something?

When there is such a switch, then there usually is also a second channel. Single channel = no switch. Switch = 2 channels. Well, at MOST amps...

What amp are you playing right now? And what do you need your new amp for?

[Genesis]

What amp are you playing right now? And what do you need your new amp for?

Ah, but i don't have an amp. I'm hoping to buy my first electric guitar and amp soon. That's why i'm trying to decide on a good one before hand.?

That would be the traditional way.

Shit, I was afraid of that... No way I can play the amp that loud all the time. That's why I wanted a 2 channel amp... 

[conny]

Ah, but i don't have an amp. I'm hoping to buy my first electric guitar and amp soon. That's why i'm trying to decide on a good one before hand.?

When you start driving, what would be smarter - a Ferrari or a Toyota to tinker around with and get used to, see what you like, find out what you really need?

That would be the traditional way.

Shit, I was afraid of that... No way I can play the amp that loud all the time. That's why I wanted a 2 channel amp...?

From what I understand, you just want to have a decent amp right away instead of upgrading later because you bought crap. Nothing wrong with that. But don't limit your options to tube only, or else you might miss out on the right amp for you.

Have you ever stood next to an old Twin Reverb or a 100 Watt JCM? top with a 4x12" speaker with the volume at 8? Unless you are a professional player or living in your own house without neighbours, buying a tube would be plain silly because you could never get to the real benefits of a tube. Put (very) simple, tubes sound best and reveal the most of their nature and their characteristical sound at a certain volume.

Today, most solid states have some sort of tube simulaton (every brand has a different name for it, but the effect is the same), that makes the amp act (not sound!) a bit like a tube amp. It kinda imitates the dynamics a bit, ever checked that feature out? For example: try a Marshall MG-30 in a store. Play it both clean and OD at Volume 5 in standart setting and then press that "FDD" tube simulation switch. It does not get you to JCM heaven, but it sure gets you close to that Slash sound you mentioned ealier. And I mean close - at both loud AND moderate volume.

My recommendation for you (= beginner, first guitar and amp, rock music, Slash sound) is Marshall AVT or Marshall MG. Check them out before you judge them and don't listen to those 'experts' who say that "only tube is the real thing", when in fact the 'real thing' depends on the porpose. I could as well say "only 100 watt Marshall JCM is the real thing" and it would be just as stupid.

[alexh0618]

You could get an MG or an AVT but a VOX Valvetronix or Roland Cube are sooo much better.
The Vox has a tube in either the preamp or poweramp I think. Best Sounding Solid State amp.

[Miz]

Shit, I was afraid of that... No way I can play the amp that loud all the time. That's why I wanted a 2 channel amp... 

Put (very) simple, tubes sound best and reveal the most of their nature and their characteristical sound at a certain volume.

Is anyone actually reading my posts. How many times have I written you should get a SMALL tube amp, 5W to 15W max, so that you can play distorted without deafening people.

Go buy 2 Epiphone valve juniors, set one to clean and one to dirty, get a cheap ABY box and go have a ball.

[Genesis]

Is anyone actually reading my posts. How many times have I written you should get a SMALL tube amp, 5W to 15W max, so that you can play distorted without deafening people.
Go buy 2 Epiphone valve juniors, set one to clean and one to dirty, get a cheap ABY box and go have a ball.

Ah, but I am reading your posts. The thing is I can't afford two amps! (At least not the Laney kind). As for the Junior, I don't know....

From what I understand, you just want to have a decent amp right away instead of upgrading later because you bought crap. Nothing wrong with that. But don't limit your options to tube only, or else you might miss out on the right amp for you.

Have you ever stood next to an old Twin Reverb or a 100 Watt JCM  top with a 4x12" speaker with the volume at 8? Unless you are a professional player or living in your own house without neighbours, buying a tube would be plain silly because you could never get to the real benefits of a tube. Put (very) simple, tubes sound best and reveal the most of their nature and their characteristical sound at a certain volume.

Today, most solid states have some sort of tube simulaton (every brand has a different name for it, but the effect is the same), that makes the amp act (not sound!) a bit like a tube amp. It kinda imitates the dynamics a bit, ever checked that feature out? For example: try a Marshall MG-30 in a store. Play it both clean and OD at Volume 5 in standart setting and then press that "FDD" tube simulation switch. It does not get you to JCM heaven, but it sure gets you close to that Slash sound you mentioned ealier. And I mean close - at both loud AND moderate volume.

My recommendation for you (= beginner, first guitar and amp, rock music, Slash sound) is Marshall AVT or Marshall MG. Check them out before you judge them and don't listen to those 'experts' who say that "only tube is the real thing", when in fact the 'real thing' depends on the porpose. I could as well say "only 100 watt Marshall JCM is the real thing" and it would be just as stupid.

Yeah, I get what you are trying to say.  I have heard the MG series (All my friends who play guitar use them) and I don't really like them. Plus, upgrading might not be an option for me (coz of where I live. Unlike people in other countries, I can't just walk into a guitar store and try out all these amps. Most dealers here don't even know what a tube amp is...). Therefore, since I have to order my amp, I'm trying to get the best cost/feature ratio for any tube amp... Now, I know most people will say that I shouldn't buy anything without listening to how it sounds, but I don't have much choice. So i'm letting you guys be the judge of things... 

[Miz]

So how much do you wanna spend then? And are you planning to gig with the amp?

[Genesis]

So how much do you wanna spend then? And are you planning to gig with the amp?

Like I said, I can maybe spring for about $700 now, but I don't know if I can later. Plus, doing gigs with the amp is a very distinct possibility. I've narrowed it down to two options:

1) Your idea of getting two Epi Valve Juniors and ABY'ing them - Now I like this idea a lot and will, in all likelihood go for this option.

Advantages:

a) Can be cranked up at home (very important).
b) Cheap. If one goes bust I can buy another.

Disadvantages:

a) Not powerful, can't be used in a band situation.
b) Featureless amp, except for volume control.
c) For recording etc, has to be mic'd.

2) Buy a more powerful amp such as the Laney LC30II or the Traynor YCV50 Blue. - Still under consideration...

Advantages:

a) Has lots of features, DSP, etc.
b) Powerful.

Disadvantages:

a) Too loud for home (Ok. Now I don't understand this problem. These amps are 2 - channel amps. So can't I play both clean and distortion at low volumes?)
b) Expensive.
c) Difficult to obtain locally.

That's it. Either the Epi's or a single 30W/50W amp. Now the thing I don't understand is - the 50W amps have a 'Gain'/'Drive' knob for the second channel. By increasing this can't I get distortion at lower volumes?
Also, for the first option by setting the volume knob to overdrive for one of the Epi's, when I A/B them won't the clean volume be low and the distortion too high?

Your thoughts... 

[Miz]

Well, you can get distortion at low volumes with big amps, but not power tube distortion, so it might not sound like you want it to.

Gigging with small amps isn't a problem, because any gig you play, even if you've got a 100w stack, your sound will still get sent through a P.A. This would also solve the problem of one amp being quieter.

Disadvantages:
c) For recording etc, has to be mic'd.

How else would you record a guitar?!?!

Anyway, since an epi valve junior is only about $100, you could get two and then go on a nice holiday with the rest of your money.

For $700 though you could probably get an LC-30 and a THD hotplate (or similar device), then you could play cranked wherever you liked.

BTW, Epi valve juniors are by no means high gain amps. They're vintage sounding amps, kinda zep'ish. I do suggest you try this amp before you buy it because you don't really wanna get it home and find it doesn't distort enough.
Also, they hum quite a lot, but that's relatviely easy to fix.

[Genesis]

Yup, I'm going to go for the Epiphone Valve Juniors. Maybe buy one now and then one later. Since I'm starting off, this should be a nice setup. Even if I don't like the amp, the $120 spent shouldn't bother me. Some points:

1) The hum could be a problem. I'm no electronics guy and I certainly don't want to kill myself for it...
2) I heard these amps are cathode-biased, even the power tubes. Now since there's only one tube, there's no need for matched tubes or biasing, right?

Thanks Miz for the idea and saving me a whole lot of money.