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Author Topic: The war in Georgia  (Read 14204 times)
Layne Staley's Sunglasses
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« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2008, 12:17:54 AM »

Beautiful, just beautiful.

I don't think Russia understands what pulling out means!  rofl
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« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2008, 12:53:21 AM »

An entire ideological framework of cold war vanished together with Soviet Union and communism.
However, imho it looks like during 90's Nato and U.S chose to ignore the facr there is still a super power there, buried underneath the ruins of Soviet Union. And this super power, once finished with putting it's shit together, will have it's own interests and needs in the area, still.

From today's NYTimes, it seems the decision to ignore Russia was a gesture in appreciation of Boris Yeltsin:

"As a gesture to the Russia of Boris Yeltsin, who grudgingly accepted NATO expansion, ?NATO never developed military plans to defend central and eastern Europeans, because we said, ?Russia?s not an enemy and not a threat,? and we never backed up the new members with exercises and infrastructure,? said Mr. Asmus, who was a senior State Department official in the Clinton administration."


I guess we (US govt) forgot to update our little black book when Putin came to power  Smiley


Quote
Ending up surrounded by countries that either sleep together with U.S or even belong to Nato IS NOT Among Russia's interests. Through 90's  they were a complete mess and Nato as able to do as they please in the region. Now, about 20 years after death of Soviet Union Russia is finally feeling functional enough and influental enough to do something about Nato(quite ruthelessly) expanding to what is their turf.
It's about sending a message to countries in the region. "Check the map guys. remember what you have next door. Stop flirting with Nato."


yes, from Russia's POV, it makes sense to prevent this exodus of former Soviet blocs and neighboring regions into an organization whose original purpose was to be anti-Russia among other things. From the same NYT article:

"The Orange Revolution in Ukraine, which Russia failed to stop, ?was the real wake-up call for Putin,? Mr. Rupnik said. ?The Russian conclusion then, and it?s widely shared there, is that the limit has been reached ? no more concessions, a push for rollback, and definitely no Georgia and no Ukraine in NATO.?

Another interesting point it makes is about how France, Germany and Italy are dependent on Russian oil/energy, so they are not willing to be outright hostile to Russia (like relation between the US and Saudi Arabia).  Which leaves the US to prop up NATO?
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« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2008, 08:49:44 AM »

Sholud we really condem entire countries and deny their right of independence  based on heart breaking "I was in middle of it all! My wife heard the bombs dropping! This somehow means I know everything there is to know of the conflict, and am able to provide neutral factual info about it.  And now, dear watcher, here is what I want You to think of it all: -newsclips

That's a very cheap and easy way to make a news scoop.
They can be good and effective but " war is hell" is the only message they ever manage to tell.
you can bet your ass there is just as touching "Little Tatjana here lost her parents due to Russians/seperatists  bombing them to pieces!!" - clips out there.
None of them manages to tell anything of the overall situation but they are sooo good in helping to fold opinnions.

There's no such a country as independent Georgia and I'm afraid will never be. What I'm trying to condemn is someone other's intentions expressed by the Georgia's president.

The war will start again after the Russian troops pull out - if not in 2 days then in 2 years. Is there need to hurry?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 08:52:05 AM by Bob » Logged
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« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2008, 08:50:13 AM »


yes, from Russia's POV, it makes sense to prevent this exodus of former Soviet blocs and neighboring regions into an organization whose original purpose was to be anti-Russia among other things.



Aye.
There is no question in average Russian mindset that this is still the main purpose of Nato to exist and expand today.
And really, it' not like Nato is doing it's utmost to suggest otherwise.
Imo it is atleast a little bit odd theres absolutely no talks of rehauling Nato or changing it's image. The cornerstones of it are more or less the same they were during end of cold war.They could use a face lift really imho.

[
There's no such a country as independent Georgia and I'm afraid will never be.
Shocked  Sure there is. Just because a country is unlucky enough to have Russia as it's  neighbor which brings it's own fair share of limitations to foreign poitics  doesn't somehow rule out their independence?

Ofc they were part of Russian Federation and later  Soviet Union for some 150 years. (give or take)
If you wanna revoke the stamp of " true independence" from a nation just because it has been in armpit of another nation in past, or shares lots of cultural bonds with a "host" nation of somesort, you'll have to redra the map of entire eastern europe more or less, and most of central europe aswell right?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 10:28:04 AM by LeftToDecay » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2008, 08:13:54 AM »

Shocked  Sure there is. Just because a country is unlucky enough to have Russia as it's  neighbor which brings it's own fair share of limitations to foreign poitics  doesn't somehow rule out their independence?

Ofc they were part of Russian Federation and later  Soviet Union for some 150 years. (give or take)
If you wanna revoke the stamp of " true independence" from a nation just because it has been in armpit of another nation in past, or shares lots of cultural bonds with a "host" nation of somesort, you'll have to redra the map of entire eastern europe more or less, and most of central europe aswell right?

That's what I've been waiting for:

http://media.izvestia.ru/foreign/article397/  the war as the lesson of geography for some people.

Check the map of Europe somewhere back in 1980's and you'll see that's not me who's redrawing the maps. Why do you think the redrawing is over and everyone out there is happy with what they got in result?

As for Georgia's independence that's so ridiculous that the only different option I can suggest is the insanity of their president who was ready to start the war against Russia before joining NATO or ensure his safety some other way. That's suicide and they shouldn't complain of the pain they feel.

BTW there's rumors/speculations about a new president in Georgia soon because Saakashvili cannot justify his master's confidence.
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« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2008, 09:45:55 AM »

Check the map of Europe somewhere back in 1980's and you'll see that's not me who's redrawing the maps. Why do you think the redrawing is over and everyone out there is happy with what they got in result?

Because there isn't a multi-tentacled dysfunctional fucking monster like Soviet Union in process of breaking down like in late 80's?
Thus there is a genuine change  and desire for stability in a very vast area of entire europe which is something almost everyone is very content with?

Only one vast conflict(Balkans) During 20 years.It's a very good track record for europe all in all.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 10:00:01 AM by LeftToDecay » Logged

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