Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Death penalty- I am against the death penalty in all cases. (1) It is wrong to kill, unless it is in self-defense. No human has the right to take the life of another human. It's barbaric (2) It doesn't deterrer crime anymore so than life in prison. Sure a person will think twice about committing a crime if they think they will be executed; but no more so if they think they will spend the rest of their life in prison.

Abortion- I am pro-choice. While abortion is sad and the rates should be reduced, banning abortion would be a terrible idea. Women would still seek out abortion. They would go to Europe where abortion is legal if they had the money, or they would use a coat-hanger or go to a hack-doctor.

Gun Control-Ban all hand guns and assault weapons. What do you need them for? Let's have a crackdown and take all guns off the streets. Only rifles should be legal for hunters.

War in Iraq- A terrible, terrible mistake. The whole reason to go to war was WMD, and there were none. Why didn't Bush just let Hans Blix finish the job and look for himself? Why the big rush to go to war. Remember when Rusmfeld and Bush said "We know they have weapons" and Rice said "We can't let the final proof be a mushroom cloud." What a bunch of bullshit. And they said "We'd be greeted as liberators." Yeah, right...And now were in this terrible mess. Let me tell you something. We are never going to win this war in Iraq. And here is why...The war in Iraq is similar to Vietnam in the sense that we (The Americans) are seen as unwelcome invaders. The people (the North Vietnamese, the Viet Cong and the Iraqis) are fighting for nationalism--and they will keep fighting until we leave. Someday there might be "elections" and a puppet government installed, but it will be overthrown as soon as we leave. The people of Iraq do not want or welcome a Western-style democracy. The whole concept is totally alien to them. What they want is some kind of Islamic Theocracy. The other problem is that there are so many factions-Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds---I really don't know how they will be able to get along. It's a terrible, terrible mess and I haven't a clue what to do to fix it.

death penalty - should set up a reality tv show, where you can win the right to kill someone

abor - its pretty fun, should be live on tv

gun control - i always try to save as much ammos as i can in videos games, cause i always keep the big guns for the last boss

war in iraq - too far

Death Penalty - Wrong.
Abortion - Even though i think abortion is morally wrong (if my partner was considering it my opinion would be no, but in the end its her body) i believe it should be legal and available.
Gun Control - Lots of guns = Lots of gun death. Few guns - few gun deaths.  I'll let you make your own minds up, but you'd be a fool and a communist to draw a connection between owning a gun and shooting someone and not owning a gun and not shooting someone with it.
War In Iraq - Don't get me started. Oh so very wrong.

Death penalty= for it if it is administered properly.? I do have reservations about it and its deterrence effect.

Abortion= against it.? Certain situations where I can see the argument for it.? However, I still fail to see any logic in those that ar OK with abortion but are against the death penalty.

Gun Control= certainly against assault weapons.? However, most guns used in crimes are not purchased legally.? Furthermore, many try to compare us to certain European countries where there is a ban on guns, however they dont have the immigration we have.

Iraq= Given the information Bush had, I would have probably made the same decision.? In hindsight, I think there are good arguments on both sides.?

Death Penalty - I am not totally against the Death Penalty, although I feel it should only be enforced under the most appropriate circumstances.

Abortion - I support abortion and feel it is the right of the expecting mother and father to exercise their right to have an abortion if the baby is unwanted or will not be adequitly supported if born.

Gun Control - Im against weapons that have no purpose in being created in the first place, and also feel that the more guns there are, mores deaths are possible and just waiting to happen.

Iraq - Totally against this war, there is no point whatsoever to it in the first place. Iraq had never threatened or attacked the US ever, and this is all about the oil from what I can see.

death penalty: I think everyone that feels it's right to kill somebody, is mentally unbalanced
abortin: dunno, i'm not a girl
gun controll: guns is for military, police and hunters
war in iraq: war is always a defeat, maybe time will tell

What tha fuck u on?

Most guns used in crimes illegally purchased? Certainly true over here, but in the states - why would a criminal ''illegally'' buy a gun he can legally buy? That makes no sense man.

European nations don't have the immigration u have??

1) why have gun control and immigration got anything to do with each other? U gonna shoot foriegners?! That point baffles me..... immigration means u need guns?
2) i'd hazard a guess that immigration to Britain is, percentage wise, atleast as bad (or good depending on ur outlook on these people...) as it is in America, so again, what u on???

Nice way to start a conversation : ok: ::)

Because criminals cant buy guns.  There are laws against criminals buying guns.  Many young kids who also do a lot of the gang shootings arent 18, and get their guns illegally.  It is a fact that most guns used in crimes were purchased illegally.  It makes perfect sense if you know how the system works.  Ive worked for two different district attorneys and Ive had this told to me many, many times. 

Certainly.  Im not sure what country you have in mind for a direct comparison.  Many European countries have immigration, but not like the US, where it is poor, poor people coming from a neighboring country.  These people move to the inner-cities, are not educated and end up joining gangs and committing crimes.  There are very few European countries that have immigration from poor countries in such high numbers.

It shouldnt baffle you.  There is a direct correlation between immigration from poor nations and crime.  People use comparisons with the crime rate in the US to show that it is all because of guns.  Sure some of it could be becaues of guns, but not many countries get the inner city ghettos that we get from letting such large numbers of poor immigrants into our country.  So any direct comparison with crime rate is skewed.  You get the connection now?

I have no problem with immigrants.  My family immigrated over here back in the day.  Im not saying anything against the people, Im just simply saying it is hard to make a direct comparison between two nations when they are completely different.  For us, our crime numbers are skewed because of immigration in certain areas.  Just like our education system.  Im not saying guns dont play any role, but there are many other factors as well. 

Immigration in Britain is high percentage wise.  However, they dont have the same number of poor country immigrants that the US has with Mexico.  At our border anyone comes over from the poor countries.  Immigration in Europe is far more strictly regulated. 

Just my 2 cents?

Death Penalty -? For...

Abortion - Against...

Gun Control - Depends...

War in Iraq - For...

I loved it when you tried to be funny, but failed.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people have a moral argument against the death penalty, yet are in support of abortion.?

They'll defend the life of an adult convict on death-row before the life of an unborn child.

Maybe if they were against both they would have an argument.? At least their position would be consistent... :P

Out of curiosity, what's the logic in those that are OK with the death penalty, but are against abortions?



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Maybe they think it's too different things..ever thought of that?

Hmmm...let's see here.

Death Penalty - an adult who has been convicted of a heinous crime and found worthy of capital punishment.

Abortion - an innocent, unborn child.

Pretty self-explanatory isn't it?

I completely agree that the death penalty and abortion are two different things.

My point was that, if a person finds themself defending a convict's "right to life" before a babies', they should probably re-evaluate their moral-paradigm...

If you are against abortion, basically, you believe in 2 premises.

1. It is wrong to kill a human being.
2. A foetus is a human being.
erego, its wrong to kill a foetus.

Reversing that if you believe it is wrong to kill a foetus then you must believe it is wrong to kill a human being.

I can't see an argument that would allow someone to be able to morally support the death penalty but not support the right to abortion. However it's quite plausable to support abortion and not the death penaltly as all you have to do is reject premise number 2.

what about sperm? does that count as unborn, innocent child?

It's a hard topic, the abortion thing, but i think it's ok with the pills thats preventin any evolving

but murder is what mentally sick people do, and death-penalty should be illegal under any circumstanse

Please.

I realize that many use your second premise.  It's a cop-out.  Just like the "it's the woman's body" argument... ::)

thats so naive

http://www.ecre.org/factfile/facts.shtml

asylum applications 2000-2002, every year in the UK there were more applications than in the USA, and the US is 5 times larger than the UK...European Union has had 4 times more applications than the USA which is a closer comparison...do you not regard Ukraine, Czech Republic, Romania etc etc as poor countries?

have you ever been to london? you will see that all the menial jobs are taken up by blacks and foreigners....and there are plenty of gangs here...in fact its quite an issue at the moment with new legislation going though parliament...

a foetus/embryo is not a human being, a human being is conscious thing with emotions ...but a foetus doesnt have that ability until a certain development age...when does a foetus change to a conscious human?...when it splits into 2 cells? 4 cells? 120000 cells?...i dont think anyone knows...

there is also the issue of choice...if a person chose to become pregnant then they should have the choice up until the foetus becomes conscious to have an abortion...

i dont even know the law on this...i think you can have an abortion up to 20 weeks after conception in the UK...i think this maybe should be shortened to 12 weeks...i think 3 months is long enough to know what the parents want to do

No, you misunderstand. I'm not claiming that to be against abortion you can pick either one. It's a pretty set in stone idea that to be anti abortion you must believe both. To be anti-abortion you must believe in, or amend succesfully, the first premiss.

This isn't a matter of opinion. It's saying to believe in something you must accept the first two as fact. There's no room for maneuvering.

I'm against abortion but I don't believe it is inherently wrong to kill if under specific cirucumstances, i.e. war, capital-punishment.


I believe a fetus is a human being and it obviously doesn't fall under the special categories I listed above.

Hence your reasoning for the beliefs had by someone who opposes abortion might need some re-evaluting...

Actually you my friend are the naive one. ?Maybe you should look at the entire picture before you call me the naive one.  Your website shows nothing. ?I was talking illegal immigration. ?We have more people coming over here illegally every year then your combined 3 year asylum "applications" combined. ?Do any web search and you can see this for yourself. ?Those countries you listed are poor. ?However, your country can also control the numbers of poor that they let in which allows an easier assimilation into society.

Ive been to London many times. ?It is probably one of the most diverse cities in the world. ?You guys are beginning to see the whole gang thing. ?Imagine what it would be like if you had double the number of poor people entering your country. ?

I'm playing devil's advocate, but....

If you alter premise 1 then your whole argument is weakened considerably as you then allow the anti-abortionist to say "Well my special circumstances are different". The purpose of a moral argument is to invalidate your opponent's position, not to triumph your own, and by altering premise one you've made it very difficult to destroy your opponents reasoning.

That's just it. ?No one knows exactly. ?If anything, that is an argument against abortion.


While "choice" is the operative term often used, when it comes right down to it, selfishness is a more central term to the subject of abortion.

I said I do have reservations about the death penalty. ?There are two basic underpinnings of those that believe in it: retribtivism and deterrence. ?Retributivists believe in the whole eye for an eye theory of revenge. ?Those that believe in deterence believe that by having the death penalty as an option it deters people from committing certain crimes and saves lives. ?I dont base my support of the death penalty on an eye for an eye justification. ?I base it on deterrence. ?Also on the fact that I dont trust our system to put these people away for ever. ?However, I recognize that there is wide spread debate on whether there is any deterrence effect of it. ?If there isnt deterrence and I know for sure that these people will be put in prison for their "entire lives" my support for the DP goes out the window. ?However, it is consistent because you believe that it saves more lives in the long run.

The Dude expressed my feelings about it. ?There is a big difference between supporting the death of a convict to save lives, and supporting a womens right to choose for the convenience of the mother.

Dude made a good point.  If you are for human lives (as is the claim of those against the death penalty) wouldnt you error on the side of calling a fetus a human?

So what was it?  Debate club?  Chess club?  ;)

Where is it written that the purpose of a moral argument has to be this or that?

For the record, I fully realize that my having my own "special circumstances" like war and capital punishment might, in of itself, raise the question of conflict on my part.

By the same token, I realize that those who are pro-abortion (oops..."pro-choice"), can come up with their own "special circumstances.

My initial point is there's a certain irony that a convict's "right to live" is more readily defended by some than a child's.

lol, oh boy, that was a funny one. And from someone who supposedly traveled a lot abroad and knows quite a bit about foreign countries. lol I can just imagine what the typical guy from the countryside who never went out of his county (not country) must think about other countries. Wow.

Ok, let's take France (he, that's where I'm from, sorry) as an example. I guess the millions of people from North Africa who moved to France in the 60's and 70's (and afterwards - to this very day) don't count. Yeah, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco must not be included in the your "poor countries" list. I'm guessing Ivory Coast, Mozambique, Nigeria, etc. are pretty rich countries. And France is not an isolated case, those people moved from their country to Italy, Spain, Belgium, UK to try to find a decent job and improve their lives. Some of their kids did end up in gangs and the whole scheme you were talking about. Believe me my friend on this one, the US are certainly not alone. Far from it.
"Very few European countries"? Let's see: France, Italy, Spain, England. That's already four pretty important Western European countries. I wouldn't call that "very few".

Now concerning this topic:

- Death Penalty: I'm against it for one main reason: the people who were killed because they were "believed" to have committed a crime. Oops, years later, we find out they didn't commit that crime at all. Well, that's too late. I'm kinda split on that issue, especially because of sexual agressions, teen rapes and stuff like that. I know a life in prison is supposed to be "more painful" but in such cases I can understand the families will to end up the person's life right now. If he is indeed proven guilty without any doubt.

- Abortion: For. 100%. Think of the rapes, incestuous relations and crap like that. Stop thinking with your male minds and dicks. Let women tell you what the fuck they want. And you will see most of them are for abortion. And PLEASE leave religion out of it. If your God was so great maybe he would have prevented that 12 year old girl to be raped by her step father. Where was your God when THAT happened?

- Gun Control: weapon sale should be prohibited to anyone except for hunting purposes. Complete ban on assault weapons (are you gonna kill a deer with an AK-47?).

- War in Iraq: I'm pretty sure almost everyone here knows what I think... :) 200 billion dollars invested, hundreds of US soldiers killed, thousands of iraqi civilians killed. I say America should take care of its own people before trying to change other cultures. Fix education problems, healthcare problems, retirement problems in your own land, and then I'll take "arguments" about unnecessary wars not supported by France, Germany and Russia (among many others) seriously.

Oh that's right.  Those who are opposed to abortion are brutish cavemen who only think with their dicks.  ::)

It always amuses me how quick those who favor abortion are to bring up the special cases of rape and incest. 

Nevermind both combined make a very low percentage of abortions performed...despite what organizations like NOW would have you believe.

agree, and thats what i said- ?killing is 4 mentally unbalanced people
(as a victims family would likely be)

murder under any circumstanse is wrong

exept jerkin off or shooting a load elsewere ::)

Certainly Im not saying that there isnt immigration, and a whole lot of it. ?They dont have it in as of high numbers that the US has it from Mexico. ?That plays some part in the crime rates. ?Do you deny this? ?Furthermore, as you can see by the numbers those that do have the higher rates of immigration have the highest rates of crime. ?City by city, country by country. ?

What about those "believed" not yet to be a human.

Its not religion, its respect for life. ?Its not thinking with our male minds, its thinking about human beings. ?Its not men versus women, its life versus non-life. ?

Not all of them, but some of them, yeah. And I would like to see some women's opinion on the subject. I'm all for it, and nothing ever convinced me it should be a good thing to ban. Of course I'm against "late" abortions and all that weird crap, but there's a limitation defined by law (well, at least in Europe, I don't know about the US, but I think so) and we should respect that law.



Easy to say when you have not been confronted to such a tremendous issue. Even though they're small numbers, they should be accounted for.

The reason i'm arguing the manner of belief rather than the belief itself is because Sky72 asked "Out of curiosity, what's the logic in those that are OK with the death penalty, but are against abortions?"

And i put down why its difficult to be pro-death penalty and anti-abortion as the now infamous premise 1 conflicts.

As for where it is written; in any search for an answer, whether in a laboratory or of morality, the first thing that must be done is to disprove the opposite theory. Simply proving yourself correct is not enough, untill you have proven the other side wrong they could still tecniqually be right.

Just a quick example. If we were arguing politics and you said (ludicrous as i know this is, but just play along) "Cuba is a fine example that communism works". That doesnt mean that my pro-capatalism point of view suddenly becomes null and void, it merely proves you correct but my belief still stands untouched as both believes can co-exist. However, if you could succesfully prove capatalism to be a crock of shit, then you have defeated me. If you can then prove communism to be viable you have won.

An unrealistic example but i hope you understand me better.

What about those "believed" not yet to be a human.
I understand the sarcasm in relation to the abortion part but I don't think it's relevant, as those are different issues. But if you want to compare them, more power to you... :)


Its not religion, its respect for life. ?Its not thinking with our male minds, its thinking about human beings. ?Its not men versus women, its life versus non-life.
I never understood why abortion was such a big issue in the US. There's a law which says women have the right to terminate their pregnancy in early stages and that's all there is to it. I don't remember hearing about such tensed debates about that issue in other countries. There's a law, women have the right to choose, why deprive them (or debate about depriving them) of that right?

I think abortion is wrong.  I simply dont like the way that it was forced upon the people of the US.  Overturning Roe would not outlaw abortion, it would simply make it so each state could choose whether or not to have it.  If we lose the battle of public opinion I can live with it, although I will still disagree with it.

Just to clarify, I wasn't stating my position on either of those issues.  I was merely making an observation that GnRNightrain said he didn't understand the logic behind being against the death penalty and pro-abortion when he had just stated that he was in favour of the reverse situation (for the death penalty and against abortion).  I'm aware that the two situations are different, and from reading the posts, it seems GnRNightrain is aware of that too.  Basically it is possible for someone to have any combination of views on the two issues since they are different... which is why I commented on the "no logic in being against the death penalty and for abortion".  Did that make sense?   :nervous:



Wait a minute.... aren't you for the War in Iraq? Yet you think abortion is wrong because people have the "right to life" and you don't like that it was "forced upon the people of the U.S."??

It sucks when innocent people get killed, or have things thrust upon them that they don't agree with, doesn't it?

I still fail to see the logic.



Wait a minute.... aren't you for the War in Iraq? Yet you think abortion is wrong because people have the "right to life" and you don't like that it was "forced upon the people of the U.S."??

It sucks when innocent people get killed, or have things thrust upon them that they don't agree with, doesn't it?
How do you know they dont agree with it?  They dont want democracy?  They want an evil dictator?  I think they want freedom just like any other country.  First, Iraqis never had free elections where they could choose whether or not to vote our Saddam or not.  He was murdering tons of his own people.  I dont think his people were that sad to see him gone.  If they did have some say in the regime then why didnt they make saddam comply with the UN and tell him to quit violating resolutions.  We gave the guy 20 years and 14 resolutions before we did anything.  We tried quite a few times to get saddam to comply peacefully.  He refused.  Im all for letting countries do what they want to a certain extent, however, my own country's security comes first.

Right and like I said people think they are two different things. Many people do not believe life starts before birth.

And they are not neccesarily defending the 'right to live' of the murderer. They are questioning if it is a civil way to behave as a society, and obviously they don't think so.

Your argument is flawed because you are ignoring that others have different opinions on when life begins. Also twisting around the wording regarding capital punishment. You can't use your outlook exclusively to poke holes in somebodies opinion, it is not logical. If you looked at both sides and then did so, it would make more sense.

Well I'm assuming that you're saying it's illogical because people that are pro-choice and against the death penalty are contradicting themselves. ?In one case they are saying the woman should have the option to take the life of her "baby", and in the other case they are saying it is immoral to use capital punishment to take the life of another human. ?You are saying that you are against abortion and FOR capital punishment. ?I'm assuming your stance on abortion is because everyone has the "right" to live, so if you're FOR capital punishment, then by your standards, that's a contradiction as well, and illogical.


Ah, yes... and George Bush is all about "complying with the UN". ?Did the UN decide that invading Iraq was justified? ?No. ?Did George Bush care? No. ?You can't justify war because your country is paranoid.

Anyways, regardless of whether the Iraqi people are "happy" with the U.S. implementing a new government in their country... Innocent people were killed. ?So how can you say "abortion shouldn't be allowed because you're taking the life of an innocent person" and then turn around and proudly wave your country's flag for dropping bombs on innocent people? ?

Your defense of capital punishment is that the criminals have committed crimes that are so serious that their life should be taken. ?Your argument against abortion is that the life of an innocent unborn child should not be taken. ?However you support the War in Iraq which kills innocent people. ?Something there doesn't add up?.... Unless you want to argue that each of these situations is completely different, in which case people CAN have different views on them, in which case some people CAN be pro-choice AND against capital punishment.

How in the hell can you be pro-life, but then approve the war in Iraq? Which has killed thousands upon thousands of innocent children? Not to mention all the thousands of children with blown off legs, arms , eyes etc etc. Is this a pro-life stance you take?

I guess if it's for a "greater good" then it's ok?

Just the ugly side of war?

With that logic, isn't an abortion then just an ugly side of life?

Could some of you pro-lifers put your money where your mouth is and start adopting the children once abortion is illegal again? If a woman is having an abortion is it for a reason, usually financial. If young poor women receive welfare then you bitch and call them bottom feeders with 4 kids each, and you are tired of your tax money going to them. But if they have an abortion then they are bad people too.

Droping a bomb on civilians, then rebuilding with corporate contracts (that our VP still gets 180k a year from) is pro life? Jeesh...who ever would have thought.

What are you crazy? 

They'll all be too busy signing up for the military to go fight for good causes overseas.....  :rofl:

haha, yea they all seem to ask so much from EVERYBODY ELSE, but when it comes time to suit up, they all have an excuse not to step up to the plate.

War  = Good, but I'm going to school, and will serve my country in "other ways" (mostly by being critical of anti-war posters on the internet).

Abortion = bad, although I can't adopt kids and give them a good life, because I've got other things going on to serve my community (those women should have kept their legs closed to begin with).

Abortion will not be outlawed anytime soon...a few fanatics won't change a law (I'm not talking about people on the board, but those who kill doctors who practice abortion and such). I'm confident in this. I'm more concerned about the "War in Iraq" and the many domestic issues no one likes to talk about.

I don't think abortion will become illegal, I said it being hypothetical. But my question still remains. How many pro-lifers will step up and adopt children if it would reduce the number of abortions? Any takers? Have the money, time and selflessness to raise a child? Answer = (insert blame here and other excuses)

(Most of these clowns on here aren't in the real world yet, facing real issues. They sit behind a computer and tell everybody to educate themselves etc etc. Wait til they get screwed by their HMO, their brother dies in the war, their job goes overseas, work more to earn less, social security is gone and they have to play with the crooks on wallstreet.....etc etc...Nobody gives a damn until they are getting screwed, then they call for a change. Look at Nancy Reagan and the stem cell debate. All of a sudden when old Ronald was part of the diaper patrol, she condoned stem cell research.)

And they're calling us left wing nuts while flipping to Fake News... ;D

I guess it's irony that makes the world go round.....

Okay....


Tell me more!



But wait! U just said criminals can't buy guns...... :hihi: Also, maybe these ''criminals'' bought the guns before they were convicted - or had the gun bought for them. Your whole point is deranged.

Only the army should have access to guns. No one needs one. Guns and civilians don't mix. The thought that u own a gun is truly horrifying. If i was a poor immigrant i would be shit scared.


Well another poster already showed u to be speaking out of ur arse here.

U are nothing more than a biggot. ''Immigrants are all criminals'' - ur the sterotypical red-neck. U should be ashamed of yourself. Immigrants are predominatly people just seeking a a better life, who are educated and respectable people - ur views sicken me.


So crime all due to Mexican immigrants - well u solved that mystery! ::) Let's just shoot them all then?

So u need guns to fight back against these 'evil' invaders? Fuck's sake - no wonder Bush got re-elected with ignorant people like u about.


?

U don't...well what about this quote then?


Oh dear.....so u have no problem with immgrants except they are all stupid, criminals and wreck the Anerican dream?



So ur from a ill-educated background of inner city criminals? You know, that doesn't surpirse me at all.

Of course! Your from the few ''good'' immigrants! It all makes sense, its the rest that are criminals!


ur not? well what about this again?


Oh dear oh dear, me thinks your views are some what crazy....



If only u got rid of foriegn devils, u'd have a utopia!! i'm convinced by your views, lets start up those concentration camps and your Nazi friends can run them. Soon all these poor, uneducated criminal immigrants will be gone! ::)



U have no idea. U are so ignorant it horrfies me. Under EU law any EU national (all those eastern european ''poor'' nations) can move here without any regulations at all.

People from Jamaica can move here without even a visa

Immigrants are not all stupid or criminals, you know. Many of the mods on this board have emigrated to other countries, are they stupid criminal gang members in your view - if so maybe u should go tell Jarmo that.

Your views are truly shameful. Do u also think that black's are all criminals and that Jews are evil too? Adolf Hitler would love to meet u.

No, you didnt read my explanation for being for capital punishment.  I said I am for it becaue of the deterrence factor and because I am not certain that these criminals will stay in prison forever.  I think capital punishment saves lives in the long run.  Therefore, I think by executing a few "criminals" you save the lives of innocent people in the long run.  However, I stated that the deterrenc effect of capital punishment is questionable.  Therefore, if it is shown not to deter and I am certain that these criminals will remain in prison forever, then my support for the DP falls.  I am by no means have an "eye for eye" rationale as you stated in the post above. 

Iraq is the same situation.  I believed that it would save more lives in the long run.  I believed that freedom and saving lives that would occur from an Iraq where there were no WMDs or an evil dictator that constantly killed his people or took his people into struggles would be a good thing in the long run.  I know people die in war.  Its a sad thing.  However, we gave suddam numerous chances to live peacefully in the world.  He chose not to.  All evidence showed that he had WMDs and that he was supporting terrorism.  It is the duty of the President to protect his country.  With the link to terrorism and the WMDs it was a risk that we were just no willing to take.  You guys act like we want to kill innocent people.  War is a horrible, horrible thing.  Our country has done every possible thing they could to protect innocent lives in this war.  We have done more than any country in the history of warfare to try and protect innocent lives in this war.  Most civilian casualties are the result of Iraqi insurgents and foreign terrorists.

Most that are in the military support the war.  Every conflict you support you have to jump in and go enlist?

So Im not sure where your argument stands.  Furthermore, my brother adopted a child, my parents did foster care for many years.  Im almost certain one day I will adopt a child.  I have already discussed it with my girlfriend.  So spare me on the bullshit. 

You guys are pathetic.

You are so pathetic it is sad


They cant buy them legally.



Exactly.? There is a black market that exists for guns regardless of whether they are legal or not.? Just like there is for drugs.? You think its legal for gang members to carry guns?? Of course not.? But they do so anyway.? Thats not a result of the gun laws, its a result of people breaking the law and there being a black market for guns.? This would exist, IMO, regardless of whether we sold them at the counter or not.? Im not saying that the number of guns wouldnt be reduced, however, I think you would be taking them away from the lawful users and the black market would still exist for those that are not legal owners.

? I dont disagree with the army thing.? Where the fuck does the rest of this come from?????????????
First of all, I dont own a gun.? Second, what makes you think that I hate immigrants?? You are fucking whacked out.

Actually they didnt, I disproved them.? They gave me a website on asylum which doesnt take into account illegal immigration.? We have illegal immigration in massive numbers which makes all of the other immigrant numbers seem very very small.? IT IS YOU MY FRIEND THAT IS TALKING OUT OF HIS ASS.? If you guys have higher illegal immigration numbers then show me?? Something tells me that you wont.

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:Go ahead and call me a biggot, you know nothing about me.?

Where the fuck did I say "immigrants are all criminals."? You put it in quotes as if I said that.? You are fucking idiot.? How am I a biggot?? How am I a redneck?? I worked as an intern with the Federal Defenders where I did pro-bono work for immigrants at the border.? So dont give me the redneck I hate all immigrants bullshit.? I am simply stating the truth, that when you have massive numbers of poor people coming across at one time and they go into poor neighborhoods where there might not be any jobs, that crime increases.? This is a fact, and one that you cant refute.? The more jobless or poor, the higher the crime rates are.? You are telling me that this has nothing to do with immigration??

I never once said we shouldnt let any immigrants over here.? In fact Im all for it (legally of course).? I recognize that they are just looking for a better life, and Im sure I would be the first one to try and come over illegally if I wasnt blessed to be born in the US.? I also realize that they do provide a necessary labor force where they are willing to work certain jobs that some lazy ass americans arent willing to work.? Now this has nothing to do with my point.? I said that you cant look at the numbers without taking other factors into account such as immigration.? A country cany sustain that number of people and expect no crime.? It happened the same way with the Italians, the Irish, the Chinese at the beginning of the 20th century.? That doesnt mean I hate these people.? They will work their way up just as those ethnicities have.? In fact we already beginning to see them doing so.? This doesnt change the argument, which you still cant refute.? I worked for the fucking DA, I know that most of the Mexican gang members that are in prison in California are illegal immigrants.? Do you not think that massive numbers of poor immigrants has any effect on crime?? If you do does that make you a biggot?? That is the only point I was trying to make.? I was simply saying it is hard to compare two countries with different numbers in this regard.? I said nothing about whether I liked or disliked immigrants.

I think its sad that you would call me a redneck and a biggot from my post.? It sure says a lot about you.? Is that what you call people that disagree with you?? Im sure that will get you far in life.

What is inaccurate about those statements?? You said there were gang problems in the UK also?? There is a direct correlation.? It doesnt matter the ethnicity, but simply putting massive numbers of poor people together in the inner cities without jobs creates higher incidents of crime.? Are you refuting this?? You are a sad, sad man that you have to label me a biggot instead of reading what I am saying and realizing that in most every society it is true.? Tell me why there is more violence in inner cities than suburbs?? Can you tell me this?? Is it because there are more poor jobless people?? What effect do you think it will have when you increase the numbers of poor jobless by hundreds of thousands.? My gosh you are sad.

That is true, a good portion of them do join gangs and commit crimes.? Most?? Nope.? A good percentage?? Nope.? But there are great numbers of them that do.? Does that mean I dont want immigrants coming here?? Absolutely not.? I think it should be more regulated though.? They are not all stupid, however, they dont have the education level necessary to get certain jobs.? They also dont speak english which makes it harder to assimilate into society.? This leads to gangs and crime.? Its a fact my friend.

Again, you are a sad sad man.? My family had to deal with it back in the day just like every other immigrant family did.? They lived in poor areas where there was more crime.? There is a correlation with poor areas and crime you know?? Are you refuting that?? There were a percentage of the people that came across with my family that Im sure committed crimes.? Did that mean all of them?? NO.? Im not saying all of the ones today commit them either.


Now you are calling me a Nazi.? Ok

Do they come over in massive numbers like Mexican immigrants do in the US?? If so show me the numbers.? I doubt they anywhere near what they are in the US.


You are sad

Couldn't be bothered to read your rubbish, i showed u up for the rascist fool u r, but one point i will pick u up on


Just here:


 :peace: I'm sure that's not a horrible sterotype but the truth!

I'm swayed by your views. There is no immigration in Europe and all Mexicans are evil. I'm so sorry i doubted your wisdom. : ok:

You dont read any explanation, but continue to call me a biggot and put words into my mouth that I never said.  I never said all Mexicans are evil, in fact quite the contrary.  I never saud there is no immigration in Europe in fact quite the contrary.  Learn to read. 

You showed me up for a racist fool, yet you misread everything I wrote

U claim a large majority of immigrants are uneducated and become criminals, which is patently untrue, and is nothing more than ultra-right wing rhetoric. Scapegoating if you will.

Your views on immigration are very suspect, we get the same kind of ''views'' over here too, but usually aimed at Asians. Over here its called rascism when people say it. Fair enough, its more respectable in America to say these things perhaps? I'd just be very careful with your sterotyping - over here in Europe such views are not acceptable.

Some Mexicans do become criminals - see instead the 90% who just want to get a better life.

I never said a large majority of immigrants are uneducated.  I was referring to the poor ones that come over illegally from Mexico.  It is a fact my friend.  Are you disputing that?

What things?  That Mexican Illegal Immigrants are poor.  That massive numbers of poor people going into a society at once where there arent enough jobs ends up leading to an increase in crime.  ANd that this increase in crime skews the numbers for a direct comparison against other countries on crime.  If that is unacceptable and makes me a redneck, Nazi, racist, biggot so be it.

I agree, and I think they should be able to have that better life.  However, crime numbers are skewed because we allow so many poor to come over and try to create that better life.

Who would've guessed this would happen!

People arguing and insulting each other in a thread about politics. Never saw that one coming......  :hihi:


Calm down.



/jarmo

Absolute groundless insults.  Ive never been so offended on this board.  I would hope that a moderator wouldnt stand for someone calling me a Nazi or biggot based on the content of my posts.

You see from this i get the inference that you are saying, at the very least, that America's gun problems are, to a large degree, the actions of poor immigrants.

This is surely scapegoating? America's gun problems are more than the actions of Mexicans. White on white gun crime is surely considerable more significant in crime figures.

In Britain we have a large gang and sadly a large gun culture too. And yet firearms offences are percentage wise considerably below America. These gangs are frequently alledged to be Greek/Turkish/Asian...yes thats right, immigrants too.

To say gun control in America is largely sound and any problems are with immigrants seems alittle too close to what an NRA spokesman might say?

I remember reading a thread awhile back where you and Jarmo were debating about the EU and you kept getting mad about him misrepresenting what you were saying.  This is exactly the same situation.

I meant this is as a general comparison with crime.  We let in more poor people and that has an effect on our crime numbers.

Its not scapegoating I was simply saying you cant compare crime unless you look at other possible reasons besides guns that crime might be higher in certain countries.  Actually most of the gun crime in america is not white on white, but gang on gang.  Most of these gangs are made up of inner city minorities.  I know you are going to call me racist for saying that.  Its not a matter of their skin color that leads them to have the increased numbers of gun violence.  Its the fact that these people are poor and not as educated when they first come over here.  It takes a few generations just like it took at the beginning of the 20th Century.  You are right, our gun problems are more than that of Mexicans.  I never said we didnt have a gun problem outside of immigration.  I simply said you cant look at the numbers alone without looking at them in context of other contributing factors.  This being one of them.

Your a racist!  You are saying all gangs are immigrants, Greek, Turkish, Asian.  You are a biggot.  Hitler would be happy to meet you.  (that is the type of response you would give to a similar statement). 

Again, my point stands.  You dont have the massive numbers of poor people entering the UK that the US has with the US Mexico border.  Not to say that there arent other factors why we have higher percentages of gun violence.  However, the higher percentage of poor people the higher the crime numbers.  There is a reason why gangs are in poor inner cities and not in the rich suburbs.  Isnt there?

I never said it was sound.  I never said it was simply the result of immigrants.  I was simply saying that you cant compare crime numbers with the US and other countries without looking at other factors that might contribute to higher crime numbers.  Immigration being one of them.  You understand my point now?  Or do you still think I am a biggot.

Notice the word 'alledged', Thank you.

This 'debate' is nonsensical and i choose to leave it. Immigration is one of the many issues the world is dealing with at the moment, its no worse in America than anywhere else I fail to see, as a consequence, why this is a factor in explaining crime levels.

Detroit has one of the highest crime rates in the world, are Mexicans really the cause here too? Is migration of 'poor, uneducated people' really an issue in New York or any other northern city? If it is, then firstly, where do these people come from, and secondly - don't u think it would be far worse for us, considerably closer to these 'poorer' nations?

a foetus is certainly not conscious at 12 weeks, it certainly becomes conscious many weeks from that date...thats why i think that its ok to have an abortion before that time...

yes choice, its not your concern, the foetus has less functionality than organs in the human body before 12 weeks for sure, are you saying that people cant donate a kidney because it will harm cells in the body? ... i would say you were interfering in the right to choose...

animals have more consciousness than foetuses, do you eat meat?

So I misread your statement.  Wow that sucks. 

This debate is nonsensical because you made it that way by calling me a racist etc and getting away from what my point actually was.  http://www.cis.org/topics/currentnumbers.html  Are you telling me that the UK has anywhere near these numbers of immigrants entering from such a poor country?  You are wrong, and should just admit it.  Im sure you wont, instead you will resort to calling me a racist or a biggot.

It really is not that hard to figure out:

increase in unemployment = increase in crime
increase in work force = more unemployment
increase in poor immigrants = increased of unemployed in poor neighborhoods

Therefore, the massive increase of poor immigrants that our country cant handle all at once creates unemployment in the inner city poor areas which leads to an increase in crime.

Actually there is an issue.  However, you help prove my point.

Detroit has one of the highest unemployment rates
There are lots of poor people in detroit, therefore crime and violence is much higher.  What else explains it?  You think the guns themselves make people evil?  It is poverty that leads to crime.  When there is a massive influx of poor illegal immigrants there is an increase in unemployment and poverty in the inner cities which leads to higher crime.

Who is the UK's Mexico?  We have 1.3 million per year coming in illegally.  DOnt even try to tell me there is a similar scenario happening in the UK, let alone anywhere in Europe.  Show me the evidence.

in 2000 there were about 600,000 illegal immigrants coming into the EU...considering that the border isnt exactly policed very well then the figure is probably far higher

That is for the entire EU.  We have 1.2 million yearly just illegal from Mexico.  That is double.

where does it say 1.2 million illegal immigrants in the link you gave to the cis website? it says 500,000 not 1.2 million

"Approximately 1 million people receive permanent residency annually. In addition, the Census Bureau estimates a net increase of 500,000 illegal immigrants annually."

and the EU population is 350 million, USA population is around 300 million so its a fair (ish) comparison..the figures arent that different

And you're the guy always talkin' about other people's egos?? Yeah, that's right, SLCPUNK.? You're the lone sage here and the rest of us have lived in a fuckin' bubble all our lives.? Keep telling yourself that...



Holy shit!? If I had a dollar for every time you've told somebody on this board to "go read a book" during an argument, I'd have a private jet on stand-by.


"Wait til...?? ???

Huh?? What exactly will happen if any of those things happen to us "clowns?"

You really think we're fall in line with you?? Don't hold your breath...

Like I said, all I hear is excuses.

LOL, look who gets all pissy when the shoe is on the other foot.

On the other foot?? When have I accused you of being a racist or a biggot.? Especially when you can get no such thing from the post.  In fact, last I remember, you were the one making an attack against me without being able to give any evidence of what you claimed.

I didn't see one person disagree with me. Your American arrogance abounds on this board, for all to see.

You take things too literally, I can't believe you are that dumb, so must believe that you do so to ignore my point(s). Of course you have never called anybody a racist or biggot. But have made generalizations about other groups on this board, insulting other members. When you get it back, you get upset about it. Point = don't dish it out if you can't take it back.

Is it any coincidence that half the posters on this thread or banned?

You really gotta stop digging almost year old threads...

Yeah, stick to the ones that are at least 2 and a half years old...

Are you looking to join them so soon in your day here, I have to ask-
 :hihi:

Death Penalty - Against.

Abortion - Against.

Gun Control - Against.

War in Iraq - Against.

Actually, most are still here.............

You dug this up to say that?

Death Penalty - Against.

Abortion - Against.

Gun Control - Guns should be tightly controlled.
War in Iraq - Against.

Is checking out old threads not allowed?

If you consider shoveling them up, giving them a good bumping for absolutely no reason at all, such as your good self has now done twice in the space of twelve hours, 'checking out old threads,' then yes, checking out old threads is not allowed.

I never knew.

Death Penalty- good in most cases.

Abortion- totally the womans choice, but dont think its the greatest either, sad situation

Gun control- dont really know, something needs to be done though that will actually work

War in Iraq- sucks, think its a total waste of human lives.

Death penalty:  lets offenders get off easy.  i say let them live very long lives...all alone, in a small, dark, cold cell, never to have contact with family or friends.  The worst food, with little water, no books, no tv, no sunlight...yes, this would be a much better option in my eyes, than death.

Abortion:  if abortion is ever outlawed, pro-life advocates should be required to adopt the hundreds of thousands of unwanted babies.  Also, when they outlaw in vitro fertilization, because let's face it, those millions of embryos that are yet to be implanted, are life in their eyes, they must be brought to term before they are killed by being ignored.  They don't last forever.  Boy oh boy, I see a pretty big up-tick in population coming!   :hihi:  Hey boys, get your hands on some fine evangelical christian ass now, because pretty soon they'll all be pregnant with triplets or quadruplets with adopted crack-addicted babies in their nurseries.   :rofl:

Gun Control:  i support gun rights...but with gigantic penalties for those whose weapons are used in a crime...look up to my death penalty alternative for further explanation.  :yes:

War in Iraq:  That'll teach those pesky terrorists!  They thought we'd make Bin Laden the primary focus...we're out-smarting them by taking out a hated dictator and establishing a civil war in Iraq that gives the terrorists a good training camp to kill American soldiers. 
All in all, it's a brilliant move by George W.  If you are against the war, you're unpatriotic.  If you support the war, you're a great American.  If we, the US doesn't get attacked, it's because of the US taking on terrorism overseas...if we do get attacked, well, just think how bad it would have been had the weak Democrats had power!  It's a win-win position for "W."

Someone on this board posted a great quote, "When fascism comes to the US, it will be wearing a flag and carrying a cross."  So true, so true.   :yes:

?

You made this statement a few years ago.? At least you identified the the most common central issue when it comes to abortion - "unwanted."? The issue isn't the very, very small minority of abortions that are a result of rape, incest, or pregnancy complications.? What it boils down to, in the vast majority of cases, is people who simply don't want to be inconvenienced.? Their selfishness precludes them of taking responsibility for their actions....even if it costs a life.? And your comment above shows that you don't want them to take responsibility either.? You would have others do it for them.



Keep in mind that person is a "little left of Chomsky."? Best to take it with a big bucket of salt....

Gun control - give everyone military training and a gun, very low crime rates. look at switzerland. everyone has military training. you wouldn't even try to rob a house if you knew that the person living there had a 9mm on his nightstand, would you?

war in Iraq - against. it's all about the oil and how much $$ Bush wants.

Death penalty - I'm split on this. In some ways I think it's not right at all for a government to kill someone. But then again I think about people like Dahmer and the idea of them taking others' lives and getting to live out the rest of their's? I mean, yeah, they're in prison, but they're alive. So I always end up back where I started.

Abortion - I can't understand why people who oppose the death penalty are always in support of abortion. I don't care about using condoms and the morning after pills. That's fine. But when you actually wait until the developing stage where the fetus is growing in the woman's womb to kill it, that's what you are doing: KILLING. People say it's the woman's right because it's her body. Umm, it's a life inside of her. A fetus is alive. Then people get into "Well at one point does something become ALIVE and at what point is it NOT alive?" And to me that's stupid because as far as I'm concerned, once the egg begins the process of developing into a baby it is alive, and if you're going to say it's a woman's right to kill a baby then you might as well legalize suicide since a woman killing herself is just doing something to her body, too.

And I'm a fan of Bill Hicks, too, so it's strange for me to take the opposite stance, but that's how I feel.

Gun control - making guns illegal would not stop the people who WANT to buy guns. Much like drugs are illegal but there are people who easily get drugs anyway. It would make gun importing the new drug business and stuff would get out of hand. I don't see why people need to buy guns but it's a Constitutional right and I think making it illegal would cause a lot of problems for us. I think they need to be more CAREFUL about who they're giving guns out TO more so than they need to outlaw them altogether.

Iraq - mistake. We need to get out of there ASAP. We've become a joke to the rest of the world.

I love even-keeled discussions and I thank you for your time. ?First-off, let's get one thing straight. ?A woman who decides to get an abortion has an unwanted fetus in her body. ?You are correct, the vast majority are neither the result of rape, incest, or pregnancy complications, they are the result of a man and a woman making a mistake in the heat of passion. ?Yes, I'd agree that for that encounter that couple behaved irresponsibly. ?So, we have 2 options, carry the fetus to term or abort it. ?Do you really want more children born to mothers who don't want that child? ?Do you honestly think there are enough families out there that want to adopt the approximately 2.4 or something million babies per year that are aborted?? ?There aren't. ?

Just think rationally for a second. ?In my eyes, I know I've said it before, but to me, the greatest crime in this world is bringing a child into the world that is not loved and wanted by its parents. ?A beautiful drug is now available that will cut the number of abortions in half to a little over a million per year. ?If taken within 24 hours, it prevents fertilization from even occurring! ?What a wonderful thing! ?

Now, I noticed you failed to mention the millions of "embryo souls" hanging in limbo as we speak. ?There little souls are crying every day of their frozen "egg"sistence. ?Every day growing more stale, and ultimately, and so sadly, having to be destroyed because they don't last forever. ?Hey, I've got an idea, instead of flushing these down the toilet, which according to Michael on The Office would be "lose-lose," why don't we use these cells for the benefit of humanity? ?That would be win-win! ?We'd be handed lemons, and we'd then be making lemonade! ?: ok:

Do you really think anyone likes abortion? ?I don't and would never have one done unless my wife's health was at risk or the developing fetus was defective. ?Who the hell are you or my government to tell me I have to live the rest of my life a widower or a caretaker to a drooling vegetable? ?Fuck that shit.

You also said I don't want these women to take responsibility. ?That is false. ?There's nothing more in this world I'd like (aside from Scarlett Johansson sitting on my face) than for people to wait to have sex after marriage, and more realistically if they don't, to practice safe sex to avoid this whole discussion...but I live on the planet Earth. ?People do stupid things. ?They fuck without waiting. ?They fuck without protection. ?They fuck without love. ?They fuck up. ?Add to this the fact that most of these unwanted pregnancies happen with less educated women who aren't prepared to handle the responsibilities of parenthood. ?More often than not, fuck-ups breed more fuck-ups. ?

Call me what you will, but I believe no pregnancy should be carried to term unless both man and woman have stated ahead of time they are planning on having a child. ?How do you like them apples? ?That would ensure 100% loved and wanted children. ?What a world that would be. ?(okay, that's talking out of my ass, but it's fun to talk crazy sometimes! ?:) ) ?I just wish people were a little more responsible.

Also, I don't care if a quote is from a person left, right, or off the 3-dimensional map! ?If a quote is spot-on, I love it! ?I'll stick by the fascism arriving wearing a flag and carrying a cross.
Alot of my law and order views are to the right of Genghis Khan! ?Where do I fall on the ol' political stereotype map? ?Boy, I think I just blew some minds! ? ;D ? 8)

PS to Russian Roulette...I support anybody's right to commit suicide.  Again, I don't think it's the best option 99.99% of the time, but who am I to stop them? 

 ? ? ?

I get what you're saying.? I realize the harsh "realities" of living here on planet earth.? Just keep in mind that your's (and many others) stance on abortion undercuts any moral arguments you want to make in regards to the death penalty, war in Iraq, etc.


You seem more objective than many around here.? That's why I'm surprised you would agree with another poster (who is so patentedly unobjective) regarding a quote that is so NOT spot-on.

^^^Thanks for the compliment.  I think you might be referring to slcpunk.  Like most folks around here, I agree with some of his posts, and disagree with others. 
Mainline, I'd like to see your reply to the 4 issues above.  Like I said, while abortion to me is a very bad thing, I believe the alternative (restriction) is worse.  We can always agree to disagree, but wow, to not allow federal funding of real stem cell research boggles my mind.
  I know it's not in the subject of the thread, but those frozen embryos open up a big can of worms huh?
  Would anyone here agree that a long miserable life never to interact with another human, living in a dark, bookless, tv-less, newspaper-less cell, is worse than a death penalty?  Some may claim emotional torture, but in my eyes, it's a real deterrent, almost the epitome of hell on earth, which is what I want these scumbags to experience.

Well since this thread was dug up and people are posting in it here goes:

Death Penalty: for-except I think they should die by starvation and lack of water or suffer however they made their victim suffer.  Lethal injection is too nice for me.  Bring back the guillotine.

Abortion: Early 1st term only, no late term-if you are going to make a decision to do this it should not take many months.  There needs to be a lot more education in this department about birth control not only for the sake of preventing abortions but for other diseases that come from unprotected sex as well.

Gun control: ludicrous and impossible to control at this point no matter what laws are enacted-where there is a will there is a way.  Just like the "war" on drugs we have been in for how many years now? 

War in Iraq-Notice when this thread started.  Go to page 1.  Yup, 2004 and now we are nearing the end of 2006 and are in no better position from where we started.  Speculated death toll of Iraqi civilians=over 44,000.  Death toll of US soldiers since war started=2809.  Non mortal casualties of US soldiers since war started=over 44,000. Coalition casualties=approx 240.  That adds up to over 92,000 deaths and casualties since this supposed "war" started with numbers increasing daily.  I think it's pretty clear where I stand on this.

Aye, good post Bandita. I'm not sure I agree with the cruel punishment for death row inmates. I mean, I can understand the emotional motivation for this, but sadly if you give the government this kind of power it's a step in the wrong direction. You start by slowly "hurting" prison inmates in this way and it's just enough room for the government to keep pushing further until it's not a democracy anymore. I think it's important to alter the Constitution as LITTLE as possible.

And also about gun control - definitely agree. Outlawing guns is stupid because it would just make it another drug empire.

I hate gun enthusiasts and I work at a book store and the people who always read all the gun magazines are annoying rednecks (yes, that's a generalization, but sue me). They're the type who bring shotguns to UFO sightings because they think a blast from a shotgun is going to damage a spacecraft that has traveled thousands of lightyears through outer space faster than the speed of sound. They're also the people who refer to Iraqis as "Iraqians" and have USA bumper stickers and do their food and clothes shopping at Wal=Mart.

But it's a Constitutional right to bear arms and I think it would be a mistake to alter this, because it is opening up a bad path.

So it is better to kill a child based on a mere probability that the child will have a hard life than it is to allow that child to live a hard life.

Death Penalty - the ultimate injustice. The state works for the protection of all its citizens - to lower itself to common base emotions like revenge shows a primitive backwards culture. How dare the state decide who lives and who dies

Abortion: totally the woman's choice, should be available to all women

Gun control: no one should own a gun, and in a working society no one needs to own a gun. A fixation with guns is nothing but chronic insecurity and paranoia

War in iraq: the greatest tragedy since Vietnam, a horrific mistake by naive (or evil) leaders - pull out now, for gods sake

Wow Really couldn't have said it better myself.... :beer:

So the victims families have no say, but the Mother of an unborn child does?! How about the baby's father?

I'm not trying to come down hard on your views, just find a hint of contradiction in your strong opinions, but you are entitled to them. I closely agree, so I'll list mine as follows:

Death Penalty - I feel it's ok, under the right circumstances. Contrary to beleif, not many people are executed in the US per year (well, except in Texas). And some (I won't name names) who deserve to, stay under the appeals process for decades. Overall I feel it's needed. Take 9/11, obviously the attackers themselves hadn't survived, but if they had, I wouldn't want the law prevent them from being executed, I'd say Kill 'em all.

Abortion - I wouldn't want a girlfriend or sister or cousin have one done, but that said, I don't feel I can say what another girl far away chooses to do.

Gun Control -Chris Rock was right, don't tax the guns, tax the bullets. Charge $1000 tax on each bullet, that'll make 'em think twice before killing somebody.? :yes:? But seriously, I think it should be governed locally, as some areas need stricter laws than others... And the members of the NRA live in areas where they are not needed.

War - Oil, totally bad move as everything said about Iraq (Dictator leader, cruel to citizens, WMD's) can and now is being said about many other countries (N. Korea, Somalia etc). So it's no coincidence a President from Texas (read: Oil) "happened" to goto war with the country with a large oil capability. To go further with countries like China, Russia, & India becoming developed the value of oil is going to drastically increase as the citizens of those countries will soon afford a car per household.


That said, I think a few of those are election day hub-bub that will never be overturned (abortion, death penalty, gun control). Bush elected 2 new Supreme Court justices & that was the GOP's perfect opportunity to overturn Roe vs. Wade, however they haven't. It's a much better Election Day vote gaining mechanism than it is an actual law. Same thing with "Flag burning" they've been debating that since the 80's, it'll never be a law. They just bring it up every big election year, and the new one is going to be Gay Marraige.

Dude, forget Axl 4 prez...you should run  : ok:  I agree with almost everything you're saying except the death penalty, while in theory your idea is good, it'd be way too expensive.  For murderes where there is absolutey no doubt they committed crime (mass witnesses, videotape, caught in the act etc...) they should be sentenced to death and the appeal process should be removed.  When you take someone elses life you should lose the right to have your own.

You're spot on about that.  If Repubs didn't have these issues to run on anymore they would actually have to run on things like education, healthcare, the economy....now that'd be something wouldn't it :hihi:

You seem to essentially be saying abortion is a necessary evil.? I will say it's refreshing to see someone who is "pro-choice" actually admit that abortion isn't a good thing.? Many people's arguments in defending it have become so twisted - choosing to focus just on the "choice" part while forgetting about the child - that they make abortion sound almost like it's something to celebrate.

Again, you make some very valid points in explaining your stance on abortion.? But, in principle alone, I cannot agree with you.? There is always a chance that a child will be unwanted, neglected, abused.? There is always a chance that any number of horrible things will happen to a person in this life.? But that is no excuse for abortion.? Our society today prides itself on its advancement of human rights and the value it puts on human life.? People march against evil wars.? They wonder why nothing has been done to stop the killing in the Sudan.? They read about the Holocaust and ask themselves how it could have happened.? Some will even defend the right of a murderer to live.? Meanwhile, with a nod and a wink, people are OK with widespread, legalized, systematic killing of unborn children.? Few seem to notice, let alone admit, the glaring hypocricy.? Instead, they come up with various ways to justify it.? People say abortion should be allowed becuase life doesn't begin until birth.? The reality is people simply claim that convenient belief in order to keep abortion legal.? People say that, since its the woman's body, it is her right to choose.? In actuality, that choice involves two person's bodies.? Furthermore, anyone who uses that argument must concede that an abortion at any time up to the actual birth is allowable.? After all, whether it is the first month or the ninth month, it's still her body right?? People are OK with abortion if it is done before a certain point in the pregnancy.? Whether they realize it or not, they are saying that life before some arbitrary point - of their own choosing - is not of any value.

And where life begins obviously comes into play regarding stem cell research.? While I understand arguments on both sides, in order to be consistent, I have to be against it.? At least, that is what is evident to me from what I know on the subject as a whole.


People always put the death penalty within the framework of deterrence.? In reality, there really is no way to know whether it is a deterrent or not.? But I'll tell you this, being put to death definitely "deterred" Ted Bundy from every killing again.? To me, capital punishment isn't so much about deterrence as it is about justice.? Life in prison might fit in some instances but, in capital murder cases, anything less than the life of the murderer is a robbery of justice.

While I've shot a gun now and again, I've never felt the need or desire to own one.? Other people do, however, and it is their Constitutional right.? There are those who say they value the Constitution, yet seem to wish the 2nd amendment never existed or would just go away.? Waiting periods, background checks, etc. make sense.? But, in all reality, overly strict gun control laws won't stop violence involving guns or criminals from getting them.

In my opinion, groups like Al-Qaeda are simply a symptom of a larger disease - destitute, disfunctional, dictator-run societies that fuel armies built on the perversion of a religion.? Both Afghanistan and Iraq were and are a part of that disease.? Many say they supported going into Afghanistan but were against going into Iraq. Hypothetically speaking, we could have gone just into Afghanistan alone, kill a lot of Al-Qaeda members (maybe even getting Bin Laden himself), drive the Taliban from the region, and help set up a local government friendly to the West.? But the underlying problem described above would have remained.? It could be said that, as long as they stay within their own borders, a country's problems are none of our business.? After 9/11, it became our business.? And not just Al-Qaeda or Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, but the whole cancer that we know as the Middle East.? I see Iraq as a test-run.? A chance for at least one nation in that region to move beyond the dark whole it and so many of its neighbors are in.? Will it all end with the desired results?? I don't know.? It is ultimately up to the Iraqis whether their nation succeeds in democracy or falls into civil war.? Ironically, people in such countries as Iran, Syria, or North Korea should want the U.S. to succeed in Iraq.? If our efforts prove in vain, we'll know that instead of trying to build up an enemy nation, the answer may just be to simply destroy it.

You obviously fail to recognize being for abortion totally undercuts your moral arguments against the death penalty.  Oh, the irony.....

  Hey, thanks again, I could flip-flop on the death penalty for ya!  You know us flip-floppin Dems!   :rofl:  Seriously, mainline made the same point.  How do we know what's a deterrent?  Good question.  The answer?  There are many, many studies out there that show without a doubt, people who are committing these crimes either A: Don't give a fuck about the consequences, or B: Don't even think about the consequences.   The death penalty doesn't prevent crime, period, end of argument. 

  So, when you say the person loses the right to have their own life, you're right!  Cold, dark isolation with no comforts whatsoever...no human interaction, books, tv, music, no sunlight.  Go back to this prisoner's cell in northern Alaska, and at the end of 1 year.  Place a gun inside the cell without this person seeing you, because we can't allow him the pleasure of seeing another human being...and guess what he'll do with that gun.  If 99% of you said he'd try to fire the unloaded gun into his mouth or against the side of his head, you're probably right.  This is why I'm against the death penalty.  The majority would choose this alternative to real punishment...a real deterrent, like the one I've outlined.  The problem with our current life in prison system isn't the lack of a consistent death penalty, which religious wack-job fundamentalists are more than happy to die under, it's the lack of punishment (not physical torture mind you), that makes most potential death rowers contest the ruling.

  Now, like on the abortion issue, where I've tried to choose the lesser of 2 evils.  The death penalty can be viewed in the same efficient manner.  We know that the death penalty does not decrease the # of violent crimes.  Every properly conducted study shows this.  I don't look at things through religious bias.  I don't care about souls or forgiveness or any moral hang-ups, I desire law and order.  I look at the facts. 
  Now, currently, we have a choice between death penalty and prison for life with no chance of parole.  Will this person kill again?  No either way, throw that point out the window.  Will this person's death via the death penalty make a potential killer re-think his plan?  You might think so, but no, it's not backed up by any research.  So, what do we do?  Is it cheaper to keep this scumbag in prison his whole life, or to put a 25 cent bullet in his brain?  Well, the answer might surprise some.  It's cheaper to house and feed this person for life under our current system.  Much cheaper.  There are many appeals allowed at this time that make it more expensive for the state to go through the endless appeals.
 
  Back to abortion, I really do think technology will advance to the point where abortion won't even be necessary.  With the right technology present in the human body, even the dumbest of the dumb will not be allowed to conceive without choosing to do so.   :beer: