Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Muslim anger targets Europe

Decision to print called `racist'
Feb. 3, 2006. 01:00 AM
STUART LAIDLAW
FAITH AND ETHICS REPORTER


Danish cartoons that have sparked outrage, protests and threats of kidnappings across the Arab world go far beyond concerns over blasphemy on which many reports of the controversy have centred, a Canadian expert on Islam says.

It's racism, pure and simple, says Ruth Mas, a lecturer in Islamic studies at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, and it's a growing problem in Europe.

Mas's comments came after newspapers across Europe re-published the cartoons this week to make the point that freedom of speech trumps respect for religious icons.

The German daily Die Welt printed the drawing of the Prophet wearing a turban bomb about to explode and, in accompanying commentary, said: "Democracy is the institutionalized form of freedom of expression. There is no right to protection from satire in the West; there is a right to blasphemy."

Other cartoons raising the ire of many Muslims include one depicting the Prophet complaining of running out of virgins for martyred suicide bombers, one with Muhammad's face peering from a green star-and-crescent moon symbol and another showing Muhammad with horns sprouting from his turban.

It's little wonder Muslims in the Middle East and southeast Asia have reacted with outrage, Mas said.

"They are reacting (to) the racism, not to the blasphemy," she told the Star.

Under Islamic law, based on clerics' interpretation of the Qur'an and the sayings of the Prophet, depictions, even positive ones, of the Prophet are forbidden in order to prevent idolatry.

Publication in September of the 12 cartoons in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten ? and their subsequent republication in several European papers this week ? has sparked both street and diplomatic protests across Europe and the Middle East.

A dozen Palestinian gunmen surrounded European Union offices in the Gaza Strip yesterday demanding an apology for the cartoons.

Both Jyllands-Posten and France-Soir in Paris have apologized for publishing the drawings, with Soir firing the editor who authorized their publication.

"Yes, We Have the Right to Caricature God," France-Soir said in the edition that ran the drawings, over its own front-page cartoon, showing Buddha, Yahweh, God the Father and Muhammad sitting on a cloud, with God saying to Muhammad: "Don't be angry, we've all been caricatured."

Shihan, a weekly in Jordan, printed some of the cartoons to show the offence; its editorial noted, "for some reason, nobody in the Muslim world wants to hear the apology." Hours later, its owners pulled the issue from sale and fired its chief editor after the Amman government threatened legal action.

Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen invited ambassadors to his country to meet with him today to discuss the controversy, which continues to grow and Iran summoned the Austrian ambassador, whose country holds the EU presidency.

In the West Bank city of Nablus, Palestinian gunmen kidnapped and later released a German from a hotel, witnesses said. Earlier, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades threatened to kidnap citizens of France, Denmark and Norway if they did not leave Nablus within 72 hours.

Norway, in turn, suspended operations at its representative office in the West Bank after receiving threats, as foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers began leaving Gaza. A Norwegian Christian newspaper, Magazinet, reprinted all 12 drawings last month.

Afghanistan and Indonesia condemned publication of the caricatures and about 400 Islamic school students set fire to French and Danish flags in protest in Multan, a central city in Pakistan.

In Syria, about 300 people staged a sit-in outside the Danish Embassy in Damascus and distributed leaflets calling for a boycott of European products, while about 100 Lebanese women staged a sit-in in the southern city of Sidon.

"The protests in the Middle East have proven that the cartoonist was right," said Tarek Fatah, a director of the Muslim Canadian Congress. "It's falling straight into that trap of being depicted as a violent people and proving the point that, yes, we are."

But to blame such actions on strict Islamic interpretations of blasphemy, as many reports have, underplays the racism of the cartoons involved, says Mas. Making matter worse, she says are newspapers publishing the cartoons under the guise of free speech.


"It really is a sense of entitlement to insult people in the name of free speech," Mas said.

She warned such actions play into the hands of right wingers, who use free speech arguments to spread what she calls "Islamophobia," a growing trend in Europe that she says reminds her of the anti-Semitic rhetoric that swept through Europe with the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s.

"What scares me here is the participation of the press in this," she said. "I don't expect the press to be intellectual, but I do expect them to be reflective."

A prominent German Islamic leader said the cartoons were reminiscent of the caricatures of Jews in the Nazi propaganda sheet Der Sturmer. "Press freedom shouldn't be used to insult people. We Germans need to know our history," Michael Muhammad Pfaff, of the German Muslim League told Britain's Guardian newspaper.

Paul Knox, chairman of the school of journalism at Ryerson University, said "editorial judgment" should be employed to avoid using too offensive a drawing. But the fact someone will be offended by a cartoon is a "poor test" of whether such drawing should be put into print. "The guy who makes that judgment shouldn't fear for his life."

With files from Star wire services

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1138920612638&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home

This is about religion, and not _that_ much about politics.. yet. So I'll let it stay open for now... But I have a bad feeling about how this'll turn out.


I talked about this with a friend of mine last night. One of the main problems in the situation is that the muslim community in some countries don't seem to realize that the media in Norway or Denmark is in no way connected to the government or reflect in any way the country's official views. Another thing is that it can easily be interpreted in any way, when a prime minister releases a statement that according to the laws the people responsible can't be hung for this. And of course other papers will now release the drawings 'cause people are really interested about what kind of pictures are the ones that caused this much outrage. Another major point is that it does seem a bit 'unfair' for them to demand us to respect and understand their religious beliefs when they themselves don't respect and undestand all of our principles of freedom and political system. I hope all of this comes to an end soon.

i couldnt of put it better myself  :yes:

I can't stand the media. I remember when there was the 2nd Intifada, trhere were a couple a antisemitic cartoon uproar in the European press (France first of course!), some were even copied from the 30's...it was insane, the socialist had the power here and the lefties media were extremely antisemitic. It was a VERY hard time for the jews in Europe, especially in France. That's why now I can't accept this cartoon uproar against the muslim community or any other religion because as a jew I know it hurts. I knew that situation. and it's hard.

The media seems to like spreading bullshit and create troubles. Nobody in the media should insult Mahomet or Moise or Jesus, you know, it hurts people.

although i dont agree
i am very glad to see that, this is your stand
cause i know jews (and other religions) has been the target of such parodies (and i am the first one to laugh -> i'am a HUGE dieudonn? fan ... and we know how he makes fun of all that - jews AND muslim)
so even i dont agree - i am glad that a jew stick up with the muslim on that affair


then. a high muslim official in france (cause this is big on the news these days) said that NOWHERE in their book (coran) it states that the prophet shouldnt be drawn or represented.
that rule they have of not portraying the prophet is a ... more like a tradition. not  a religious rule.

so tha problem lies where you connect islam + terrorist (and here nesquick .... you're sometimes close to that edge ...)

off course, a smart muslim or a smart person period, would understand the meaning of the cartoons, only to higjlight the connection between terrorism and islam nowadays (and how terrorists use islam to justify their actions). but hey ...


but we ARE free to make fun. especially when it's not directed AT ONE PERSON, but at a general concept : religion.
we CAN make fun or religion. we CAN HATE religion if we want. (religious people do believe that atheists are going to hell after all .... so .... )


BS ! ... they demand respect for a NEGATIVE  thing we did to THEM (insult)
if they dont believe in freedom of speech, that's their deal, they do as they want in their countries.

in the end, the cartoons could have been better.
showing that terrorists use islam in a wrong way, that could have been cool
but simply linking islam to terrorism in a simple manner, is just ... useless.


anyway.
Fuck all of your gods, praise the news :)

+
it's getting bigger i see.
in the end, it's not a bad thing. it's a way of showing religious people that we're not in middle age anymore, and that religion is out dated. we don't care about god.
and if you do, keep it for yourself. faith is private.
the public place is not entitled to religious rules.

but if this is a racism debate (when we'll we separate religion from race !!!??, when ?? Muslim is NOT a race, Judaism is NOT a race ... ) .... then that's something else ....

If the reason for the outrage is the reason that it portrays all muslims as terrorists, it is a different matter. But at least over here in Finland all the quotes in the media I've seen have been about the pictures showing Muhammad.

And what more can the newspaper do? They've already admitted that they made a mistake, and apologised for it (I think it was on the first page in both languages - native and arabic).

I too, think that the cartoons were stupid and someone with half a brain could've come up with something smarter, but I think this whole thing has really grown out of proportion.

gotcha.
the USA are invading iran anyway, so we'll have news stuff to look for ;)

Reaction around the world to cartoon row 

As protests continue over the publication of newspaper cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, BBC correspondents around the world report on the reaction to the images where they are.



RAMALLAH, Martin Patience

In the West Bank city of Ramallah, residents appear angry about the cartoons originally published in a Danish newspaper, but reluctant to vent their anger on the streets.


Samir Zaghir, 30, an employee of the Palestinian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, says the cartoons are offensive to many Arabs and Muslims.

"Have you ever see any Muslim write about Jesus in this way?" he asks.

Khalil Ansara, a Palestinian Christian, says that people in Ramallah accept that religion cannot be criticised publicly.

"Think about Christianity two hundred years ago in Europe and there was no freedom of expression," says the 38-year-old lawyer.

"Freedom of expression does not apply to religion in Palestine but in terms of politics we can talk about anything."


PAKISTAN, Aamer Ahmed Khan
Protests in Pakistan against the controversial cartoons have so far remained muted but the debate is just beginning to pick up.

Hundreds of religious activists have marched in Karachi to protest against the cartoons.

The protesters demanded that the French and Norwegian ambassadors in Pakistan be declared personae non gratae and also criticised the government for its "criminal silence" on the issue.

Over the last two days, similar demonstrations have been held in Lahore and Multan.

The cartoons have been condemned by Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, who said they could not be defended as freedom of speech.

The situation remains volatile as the controversy has erupted at the start of the Muslim mourning festival of Moharram - a period of highly volatile religious sentiments.


INDONESIA, Rachel Harvey
Up until Friday there had been very little reaction to the cartoons, but a well known hard-line Muslim organisation has now staged a protest at the building where the Danish embassy is based.

 
Protesters gathered at the Danish Embassy in Jakarta

The embassy is on the upper floor of an office building. The protesters, maybe numbering 150-200 at their height, stormed into the lobby and started pelting eggs. They tore down the Danish flag.

But they seemed to be calmed when the Danish ambassador offered to sit down and discuss the issue with some of them.

We spoke to one of those inside the room and he said that the ambassador made clear that these cartoons were not meant to offend or be patronising, but clearly they had caused offence. And he issued an apology for that.

We were told that apology had been accepted. The protesters had all gone away.

They moved from the Danish embassy to the offices of a local newspaper.

Yesterday it had posted on its website one of these cartoons as a means of illustrating what this row is all about.

That in itself has caused offence and the newspaper has given its own apology.

That gives a sense of how difficult this issue is here.


EGYPT, Ian Pannell
I think the protests here are coming from different areas.

The government, led by President Hosni Mubarak, has been very vocal.

He issued a very strong statement which warned of severe repercussions if this campaign and the publication of these cartoons continued. He talked about the possible terrorist threat over the cartoons.

But also religious organisations have been at the forefront of the protests.

As Friday prayers got under way in Cairo, many people were expecting, on what has been called a day of anger, that this would be a topic for many of the sermons around the country.

The newspapers have been full of commentary. Some of this has been against the West and against Denmark. It has been put in the wider context of the anti-Muslim feeling in the West.

But there are voices out there not altogether isolated which are urging caution and urging a verbal response not a physical response.

Some of these people are saying it is the job of Muslims to educate the West about their religion rather than respond in this angry way.

But the mood, certainly on the streets, is one of personal offence and personal anger.


UK, Barnie Choudhury
The cartoons have angered many Muslims in the UK.

There was a demonstration outside the BBC after the corporation showed a glimpse of the cartoons on television reports.

A demonstration has been planned outside a London mosque to coincide with Friday prayers.

It has been organised by Al-Ghuraba, described by the Muslim Council of Britain as "extremist elements".

Al-Ghuraba plans to march and protest outside the Danish Embassy in London following the prayers.

A spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, Inyat Bunglawala, said while he understood that Muslims would be hurt and offended by the cartoons, he urged them not to be provoked into breaking the law.

Muslims are offended by these cartoons for several reasons. The main one is that Muslims do not believe in idols. So any image in any form of any prophet or God is offensive.

One imam described it to me by asking me to imagine someone slagging off your parents. This is a million times worse, he said.

The Prophet Muhammad is the gateway to Allah, and is his messenger. Offend him and you offend God.

Another reason is that some of the cartoons depict the Prophet as a terrorist.

Shaykh Ibhrahim Mogra is from the Muslim Council of Britain and an imam in Leicester.

"Muslims will respect the rights of others to choose a way of life for themselves or a religion. But at the same time we reserve the right to disagree most emphatically with those lifestyles, just as others have a right to disagree with our lifestyle. This is the most offensive thing - even the vilification of God is not as offensive as this," he said.
 

it's getting bigger and bigger...
i dunno, im usually on the side of palestinian and such. but my hate for religions, just strikes me here.
there is indeed a huge clash between our two societies.

and where it hits, is in ART / HUMOUR ... i mean really ... there is really a gap between what we stand for, and our limits, and .... theirs.

i mean, if they only saw mtv's Dismissed, our porno movies, our music, our comedy ... we're too far off what they call "moral". i mean really.

i thought it was possible to fix things between the middle east and the west ... but the problem is not political, nor diplomatic ... it's cultural and irrational.

anyway.

To a certain extent it's also quite hypocrit because the most racist and antisemitic media in the world are the arabic ones. Once again, I'm absolutely against that Mohamad uproar, but it's very hypocrit coming from people who claim their hate of jews and occident everyday in their newspapers... I mean...EVERYDAY.

that's a good point. but there are issues between muslim and jews ....

while there is not really anything big between muslim and europe (especially denmark) ... so the provokation was useless ....
then again, terrorists did bomb europe ... but they are terrorists first, then muslim.

2things here:
- Do issues allow you to act like the III reich? Do you want to know what the Iranian, Saoudian and Palestinian children learn at school? they learn the jews are evil, they study a couple of mein Kempf extracts and they are taught how to be "martyr" and suicide bombers at school. Nice lessons! That's their way to make "peace". Voting for Hamas at 75% is their way to make "peace". Yes there are issues between muslim and jews but in the jewish families and in Israeli's schools, you don't learn that. That's not the same education. Once again, maybe that's the reason why it's so hard to make peace with the Arabic world (for everybody). It's barely impossible to live peacefully with people for who their only goal is to kill you. Brainwashed and fanatized since they were babies.?Hard to discuss!
- Anyway, I agree with you on the second part of your post.

i know, and i totally understand
but you also have to question yourself. where does it come from ? why such hate ? why that propaganda ?
i mean , to make a kid blow himself up for the *cause* ... there MUST be some reasons ....
i think all the *situation* you are describing, comes from something. it has reasons. things that triggered it. it's not free.
i mean, put anybody in gaza for 5 years, he'd come to hate israel too and teach his kids to hate israel.
you're looking at the symptoms, and you dont see the disease.

everything happens for a reason.

anyway, it's a complicated matter ;) let's not fight.

Are you trying to justify it? all what I said is called antisemitism in the arabic world man, is there a justification to antisemitism? Do I also have to question myself about the Nazis? "why such hate? why that propaganda?"... "ohhh if they killed 6 million jews there must be a good reason huh?"
You have a weird way to think.
 
There is no justification to hatred and terrorism. There is no justification when a mother makes children just in the goal to make them suicide bombers. Not even one.

WHAt them fuckers did was cross the line of freedom of speech. Every1 abuses freedom of speech. there's something called respect. unfortunately, those danish editors crossed the line. Being a muslim myself, i fucking h8 the idea and i want to kill the bastard who thought of blaspheming the Prophet Muhammad in such an offensive manner. HOW DARE THEY!

What he obviously didn't mention was the hadith-thing the prophet said or did and laws according to islamic shar'iah. there, there's mentions of not drawing the prophet muhammad. i believe there's a lot of propoganda going on to make muslims look badder than they r.

I'm sorry, but "abusing freedom of speech" doesn't seem to make sense to me.

You only think it is "abusing it" because you do not like what is being said.

Respect is one thing and you are right, perhaps a line was crossed.

 But a lack of respect has nothing to do with freedom of speech or the abuse of that privilege.

Look at what you wrote, and ask yourself if another person may be offended by what you "said". It is freedom of speech and you can say it. But I'm sure you offended somebody by saying it.

So.........

With a post like that u reveal urself to be a truly pathetic human being, you want to kill somone over a cartoon written in a country u can't even point to on a map?

God forbid you should think for yourself rather than jump on some bandwagon

On the news there were extremists carry banners with similiar 'slogans'.

U could walk into the Vatican with a daft message about Jesus and you'd be an embarrasment, yet u write a cartoon about Muhammad and thats the end of the world? What does that say about Islam - are the people that condemn the religion totally without point?

I really do fear for the world, why are so many Muslims so pro-violence? What is turning educated muslims around the world into an anti-social gang?

Its a cartoon, it seems certain people are just waiting for opportunities to cause trouble, no one really cares about a cartoon regardless of what it says - so what is the ulterior motive here?

Its 2006, why can't we all just be friends?

firstly, i know exactly where Denmark is; north east of europe, near scandinavian region. 2ndly, its not some cartoon, its blasphemy, and whether the christian refuse to defend blasphemy or not, its up 2 themselves. however, muslims cant handle it. also, i dont agree with destroying the embassy, i agree with destroying the guy who designed it!

We dont kill other people over religius cartoons even if they are a bit blasphamous.

The whole middle east needs a crash course in anger management.

Dude its just a cartoon! Its meant to be a light hearted joke, why are you getting so upset over it? You don't see christians going insane like you are when there is cartoons about jesus or god. Come on man you really want to kill a guy because of a cartoon? thats just laughable.  ::)

You define the cartoon as an abuse of freedom of speech.

How do you define your statement to kill somebody who has created the cartoon?

Is that not the same thing (abuse of freedom of speech) by your own standards?

To state that you agree with the killing of a human being because they "said" (in this case a cartoon) something you feel is blasphemy.

Isn't that just a tad nucking futs?

Did you burn a couple flags yet, Sakib?

no, like a said i blame the people who designed it and agreed to let it be put in papers NOT the government. i said i dont agree with the bashing of the embassies. ANY depiction of the Prophet Muhammad whether humurous or not is banned in islam. END OF STORY

Fine. Now ask yourself a question: do the Arabic countries respect the other religions?
Once again I'm against those Muhammad uproars, but you have to understand the world is SICK of your bullshits. Burning flags and screaming "kill them all!" like a bunch of animals is not a very "civilized" way to behave in the 21st century...

And you do realize that not everyone in the word is islamic right?

well, that may be the case in your country but most of us live in countries where we are allowed free speech, if you dont like it well thats pretty much tough on you, or if you really believe in free speech then you should just ignore any negative comments directed towards your religion, like we do...in a free country that would be your prerogative...we dont go about burning your flags just because those countries have no respect for equal rights...if you dont like this country and what it stands for then go back to a country where people respect muhammud and stop telling us how to live our lives...burning those embassies after a cartoon depiction is an act of philistines

Muhammad created Islam for political purposes: to destroy the native culture and religions of the Middle East so he could marry a 6 year old (consummated at age 9). Face it, that is disgusting. Look at what the Muslims did to the great Buddha statue. Look at the remains of many once beautiful Greek statues from Asia Minor, with the faces destroyed. They don't respect the art and ideals of others; fundamentalist Muslims only want to destroy.

Isn't it enough that Islam has 2 main holy cities: Mecca and Medina? They claim a THIRD city, Jerusalem, and want to take it from the Jews. Why can't they be happy with 2 holy cities and let the Jews have just 1? Why do they want to drive Israel into the sea if they have the whole damn Middle East, with all its oil?

I support Israel's stance. They're one of the few countries that recognize the fundamentalist Islam threat, and are fighting to preserve their culture. They also make the best tanks and have the best trained military in the world; they value quality over quantity in their army, and I like that. We could learn a lot from them; they kick our ass every time we have a war game.

I have Muslim friends who follow the basic tenets of Islam, but they reject the obvious garbage. Look at Surah 9:5. It commands Muslims to kill "idolaters" wherever they find them. Let's compare it with Christianity. Matthew 10:23 says Christians should leave where they are persecuted and go elsewhere. They should find people who will listen and leave the unbelievers alone. Judaism is sort of a combination. They fought for Canaan, but they stopped killing when they had a small bit of land for themselves.

The parts of the Koran that tells Muslims to impose their beliefs on outsiders is wrong. Moderate Muslims are good and ignore these bad parts from the 8th century, where they belong. Fundamentalists take it literally and have caused much suffering in the world.

Part of Islam is to spread the religion worldwide. Muhammad was not a paedophile, that girl had no family. and he didnt have any sexual relationship with her till she was 25. until that age, he treated her like a daughter. Also, major islamic events happened in Jerusalem which is why we claim it a holy city.

there's something called free speech and there's respect. that crossed the line. i mean, look at the ideas that will go into childrens heads about muslims that look at that cartoon?

Some people need realize we have a freedom of speech in this part of the world. The goverment don't run the media.


But I also think that with that freedom comes a responsibility.


Maybe the line was crossed with those cartoon, I don't know.

The same freedom was used by some other people. The ones in London who were protesting the cartoons and making references to July 7th and September 11th. What kind of ideas does those guys send to people, not just kids?



/jarmo

Very true Jarmo. I think it went to far and it hurt the muslims.

I think they're hurting themselves by burning down embassies and threatening with more terror bombings.





/jarmo

Sure. But this is not surprising for me. Don't forget "the mass" are fanatized in those countries. It's not a dicovery for me.

i hate the words extremists. Extremists can either be extremely good or extremely bad. terrorist is the better words

What's puzzling me is, why now? These cartoons were first published in September 05, who is stirring things up now?

Well the islamists manipulate the mass by incitating them to violence in each Arabic countries. It's the same everyday in Gaza since A WHILE.
I heard in Lebanon, the Christian goods start to be destroyed and burnt by the fanatic "mass". They burn everything "Christian". Welcome to the barbarians.?Surprising huh?...hmm well...not really.

Yeah, I guess they feel stronger now, after Hamas won the elections

Let me straighten a few things out;

-in islam, to depict any of the muslim prophets is blasphemy, even for humour purposes
-secondly, it's like in X-Men; mutants being feel discriminated so you get the terrorist type radicals aka Magneto and co. and you get the peaceful protesters like Charles Xavier and co. the people mutilating embassies are Magneto and co.
-Because the person who designed this cartoon obviously was no muslim, we should explain the rules to him. only then take action
-there's no such thing as islamic terrorism, there's only terrorism and only islam.
-Prophet Muhammad treated the 8 YEAR OLD GIRL AS A DAUGHTER UNTIL SEXUALLY MATURE  which as sick as it sounds, isnt. if he was being sexual in any way, thats worrying
-9/11 and 7 June weren't islamic acts. they were terrorist acts

Ok. The cartoon is blasphemic as far as Islam is concerned. But why bother? So some fool made the cartoon. The protests are unwarrented. Muslims seem to think their laws govern everybody. It only becomes offensive, when u take offence.

It's a little bit too easy to say that...and what about the Hamas (elected at 75%), the Islamic Djihad, the Muslim Brothers and all those huge islamic terrorist organisation who sometimes even have the pollitical power in the Arabic Countries, elected by the people. And what about this crazy guy in Iran supported by the Iranian people. It's too easy to say "no, no, they aren't muslmims, they are terrorists" while the people in the Arabic countries elected them and give them the power to govern. It means the people agree.

No kidding.  I am tired of hearing this shit.  Its difficult for me to see the difference between someone that wants to "take action" against someone that makes a cartoon making fun of a religion and people that seek violence for other islamic reasons.  Are the majority of muslims terrorists then?  I certainly see more promote violence and cheer when such attacks take place then I see actively speak out against such attacks.

Its just a matter of time until the rest of the world sees the truth.

(http://www.mezimages.com/image/gohrd/rocco1.jpg)

Never forget the sense of humour? ;D

yes and look at the families of the people who have torched those embassies...not exactly respect is it? and not exactly a great example they set for their children...muslim tinted spectacles

and one thing to note...you have to earn respect..you will find there is very little respect for the muslim religion in the western world...maybe if you earned some respect then papers wouldnt print muslim-based humour...judging by current trends, that isnt going to happen soon

with the muslim world reaction to these cartoons, and the subsequent interest in it by the western world dont be suprised if you see numerous muslim humour sites set up...supply=demand

...and it's days like these when i think to myself that im glad im an athiest

Mark Steyn
'Sensitivity' can have brutal consequences

February 5, 2006

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST 
 




I long ago lost count of the number of times I've switched on the TV and seen crazy guys jumping up and down in the street, torching the Stars and Stripes and yelling ''Death to the Great Satan!'' Or torching the Union Jack and yelling ''Death to the Original If Now Somewhat Arthritic And Semi-Retired Satan!'' But I never thought I'd switch on the TV and see the excitable young lads jumping up and down in Jakarta, Lahore, Aden, Hebron, etc., etc., torching the flag of Denmark.



Denmark! Even if you were overcome with a sudden urge to burn the Danish flag, where do you get one in a hurry in Gaza? Well, OK, that's easy: the nearest European Union Humanitarian Aid and Intifada-Funding Branch Office. But where do you get one in an obscure town on the Punjabi plain on a Thursday afternoon? If I had a sudden yen to burn the Yemeni or Sudanese flag on my village green, I haven't a clue how I'd get hold of one in this part of New Hampshire. Say what you like about the Islamic world, but they show tremendous initiative and energy and inventiveness, at least when it comes to threatening death to the infidels every 48 hours for one perceived offense or another. If only it could be channeled into, say, a small software company, what an economy they'd have.

Meanwhile, back in Copenhagen, the Danes are a little bewildered to find that this time it's plucky little Denmark who's caught the eye of the nutters. Last year, a newspaper called Jyllands-Posten published several cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed, whose physical representation in art is forbidden by Islam. The cartoons aren't particularly good and they were intended to be provocative. But they had a serious point. Before coming to that, we should note that in the Western world "artists" "provoke" with the same numbing regularity as young Muslim men light up other countries' flags. When Tony-winning author Terence McNally writes a Broadway play in which Jesus has gay sex with Judas, the New York Times and Co. rush to garland him with praise for how "brave" and "challenging" he is. The rule for "brave" "transgressive" "artists" is a simple one: If you're going to be provocative, it's best to do it with people who can't be provoked.

Thus, NBC is celebrating Easter this year with a special edition of the gay sitcom "Will & Grace," in which a Christian conservative cooking-show host, played by the popular singing slattern Britney Spears, offers seasonal recipes -- "Cruci-fixin's." On the other hand, the same network, in its coverage of the global riots over the Danish cartoons, has declined to show any of the offending artwork out of "respect" for the Muslim faith.

Which means out of respect for their ability to locate the executive vice president's home in the suburbs and firebomb his garage.

Jyllands-Posten wasn't being offensive for the sake of it. They had a serious point -- or, at any rate, a more serious one than Britney Spears or Terence McNally. The cartoons accompanied a piece about the dangers of "self-censorship" -- i.e., a climate in which there's no explicit law forbidding you from addressing the more, er, lively aspects of Islam but nonetheless everyone feels it's better not to.

That's the question the Danish newspaper was testing: the weakness of free societies in the face of intimidation by militant Islam.

One day, years from now, as archaeologists sift through the ruins of an ancient civilization for clues to its downfall, they'll marvel at how easy it all was. You don't need to fly jets into skyscrapers and kill thousands of people. As a matter of fact, that's a bad strategy, because even the wimpiest state will feel obliged to respond. But if you frame the issue in terms of multicultural "sensitivity," the wimp state will bend over backward to give you everything you want -- including, eventually, the keys to those skyscrapers. Thus, Jack Straw, the British foreign secretary, hailed the "sensitivity" of Fleet Street in not reprinting the offending cartoons.

No doubt he's similarly impressed by the "sensitivity" of Anne Owers, Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons, for prohibiting the flying of the English national flag in English prisons on the grounds that it shows the cross of St. George, which was used by the Crusaders and thus is offensive to Muslims. And no doubt he's impressed by the "sensitivity" of Burger King, which withdrew its ice cream cones from its British menus because Rashad Akhtar of High Wycombe complained that the creamy swirl shown on the lid looked like the word "Allah" in Arabic script. I don't know which sura in the Koran says don't forget, folks, it's not just physical representations of God or the Prophet but also chocolate ice cream squiggly representations of the name, but ixnay on both just to be "sensitive."

And doubtless the British foreign secretary also appreciates the "sensitivity" of the owner of France-Soir, who fired his editor for republishing the Danish cartoons. And the "sensitivity" of the Dutch film director Albert Ter Heerdt, who canceled the sequel to his hit multicultural comedy ''Shouf Shouf Habibi!'' on the grounds that "I don't want a knife in my chest" -- which is what happened to the last Dutch film director to make a movie about Islam: Theo van Gogh, on whose ''right to dissent'' all those Hollywood blowhards are strangely silent. Perhaps they're just being "sensitive,'' too.

And perhaps the British foreign secretary also admires the "sensitivity" of those Dutch public figures who once spoke out against the intimidatory aspects of Islam and have now opted for diplomatic silence and life under 24-hour armed guard. And maybe he even admires the "sensitivity" of the increasing numbers of Dutch people who dislike the pervasive fear and tension in certain parts of the Netherlands and so have emigrated to Canada and New Zealand.

Very few societies are genuinely multicultural. Most are bicultural: On the one hand, there are folks who are black, white, gay, straight, pre-op transsexual, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, worshippers of global-warming doom-mongers, and they rub along as best they can. And on the other hand are folks who do not accept the give-and-take, the rough-and-tumble of a "diverse" "tolerant" society, and, when one gently raises the matter of their intolerance, they threaten to kill you, which makes the question somewhat moot.

One day the British foreign secretary will wake up and discover that, in practice, there's very little difference between living under Exquisitely Refined Multicultural Sensitivity and Sharia. As a famously sensitive Dane once put it, "To be or not to be, that is the question."

? Mark Steyn, 2006




Copyright ? Mark Steyn, 2006

Protesters set fire to Danish Embassy in Beirut
CTV.ca News Staff

Continued anger over the depiction of the Muslim prophet Muhammad in cartoons led to the burning of the Danish embassy in Beirut and calls for the kidnapping and torture of Danes in Iraq.

In Beirut on Sunday, thousands of demonstrators, armed with sticks and stones and waving green Islamic flags, took part in the protest but only a small group tried to break the security barrier.

Security forces fired tear gas and water cannons, but some managed to get into the 10-storey building.

Demonstrators attacked police officers with stones and set fire to several fire engines, according to eyewitness reports, while authorities fired bullets over the crowd.

Security forces said at least 30 people were injured, including police officers, fire fighters and protesters. One man fell to his death.

A security official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said embassy staff had emptied the building two days ago in anticipation of protests.

Protesters also stoned the nearby St. Maroun Church, one of the city's main Maronite Catholic churches, as well as private buildings in Ashrafieh, the Christian area in which the Danish embassy is located.

Later Sunday, Interior Minister Hassan Sabei, a Sunni Muslim, submitted his resignation during an emergency cabinet meeting chaired by President Emile Lahoud, although it isn't clear if his resignation had been accepted.

The violence came one day after thousands of protesters in neighbouring Syria set the Danish and Norwegian embassies ablaze.

Militant groups in Iraq called for the kidnapping and torture of Danes.

In a statement released over the Internet, the Islamic Army urged militants to kidnap Danes and "cut them into as many pieces as the number of newspapers that printed the cartoons."

Another group, the military wing of the Army of the Right, handed out leaflets in the insurgent stronghold of Ramadi urging attacks on Danish and non-Muslim targets in Iraq.

There are about 500 Danish soldiers serving in Iraq.

Iraq's trade ministry froze contracts with Denmark and Norway.

Outrage over caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad is being portrayed as the driving force behind the protests. A Danish newspaper first printed the cartoons in late September. Some European newspapers reprinted them last week. The Philadelphia Inquirer reprinted one cartoon on Sunday.

The drawings have touched a raw nerve in part because Islamic law bans any images of the Prophet Muhammad.

The Muslim Canadian Congress's Tarek Fatah says the anger has been fuelled not only by the depiction of Muhammad, but more so at the "mockery with which these cartoons were made."

One cartoon showed Muhammad wearing a turban shaped as a bomb, while another had him telling apparent suicide bombers that there were no virgins left in paradise.

"That is the primary basis of why there is so much sadness," he said, appearing on CTV Newsnet.

"Of course the reaction in the Middle East is equally outrageous and has offended Muslims in Canada."

Leaders appeal for calm

As the violence continues to escalate, world leaders and prominent Muslims are appealing for calm.

"God instructs us to forgive, therefore we, as much as we condemn it strongly we must stay above this dispute," said Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai.

In the Afghan city of Mihtarlam, some 3,000 demonstrators burned a Danish flag and demanded that the editors at the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten be prosecuted for blasphemy, Gov. Sher Mohammed Safi said.

The Danish foreign minister Stig Moeller said: "enough is enough."

"Now it has become more than a case about the drawings: Now there are forces that wants a confrontation between our cultures," he said. "It is in no one's interest, neither them or us."

Lebanese Grand Mufti Mohammed Rashid Kabbani urged Muslims to exercise restraint.

"We don't want the expression of our condemnation (of the cartoons) to be used by some to portray a distorted image of Islam," he said. "Today is a big test for us. Let our expression of condemnation be according to the values of Islam."

Sheikh Youssef al-Qaradawi, a prominent scholar in Qatar, joined the ranks of other Muslims condemning the torched embassies.

Qaradawi told Arabic television Al Jazeera that Muslims should instead demonstrate their opposition by boycotting goods of nations who published the cartoons.

"We call on Muslims to show their fury in a logical and controlled manner," Qaradawi said.

"We didn't ask people to burn embassies as some have done in Damascus and Beirut. We asked people to boycott products ... We don't sanction destruction and torching because this is not in line with morality or Muslim behaviour," he said, referring to calls to boycott he made during a sermon on Friday.

In Britain, a senior opposition politician called for authorities to deal with militant protesters after a rally in London which featured signs reading "Europe you will pay, your 9/11 will come" and "Butcher those who mock Islam."

"Clearly some of these placards are incitement to violence and, indeed, incitement to murder, an extremely serious offence which the police must deal with and deal with quickly," said David Davis, the Conservative Party home affairs spokesman.

"Whatever your views on these cartoons, we have a tradition of freedom of speech in this country which has to be protected. Certainly there can be no tolerance of incitement to murder."

With a report from CTV's Joy Malbon

....


 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



Really, the whole situation is just setting up a big load of new jokes.

Four killed in cartoon protests

Indonesian police officers fire warning shots at a demonstration outside the US consulate in Surabaya
Indonesian police fired warning shots at a rally in Surabaya
Four people have died in violent protests against cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad, following more than a week of demonstrations.

Three people died after police in Afghanistan fired on protesters when a police station came under attack, a government spokesman said.

In Somalia, a 14-year-old boy was shot dead and several others were injured after protesters attacked the police.

Further protests have been taking place from Gaza to India, Indonesia and Iran.

They follow attacks on Danish embassies in Syria and Lebanon over the weekend. The cartoons were first published in a Danish newspaper.

Monday's deaths were thought to be the first, but officials in Lebanon have now confirmed that a demonstrator died on Sunday after jumping from the third floor of the Danish embassy in Beirut to escape a fire.

Nationwide rallies

Hundreds of people took part in the morning demonstration in Afghanistan's Laghman province, in a second day of protests in the city.

The province's director of information, Hamraz Ningarhari, told the BBC that a policeman and a number of other people were injured.

Map of Afghanistan

Demonstrators shouted "death to Denmark" and "death to France", and called for diplomats and soldiers from both countries to be kicked out of Afghanistan.

"They want to test our feelings," protester Mawli Abdul Qahar Abu Israra told the BBC.

"They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and to their newspapers," he said.

Across Afghanistan, hundreds protested in Kandahar and Mazar-e-Sharif, while 200 demonstrators gathered outside the Danish embassy in the capital, Kabul.

In the north-eastern province of Takhar, demonstrators threw stones at government buildings and police fired in the air.

Protests continue

In the port city of Bosaso, in the autonomous Somali region of Puntland, police shot dead one protester and three more were injured after demonstrators threw stones and barricaded streets outside international aid agency buildings.

Peaceful protests were held in several other Somali towns.

In escalating demonstrations around the world:

    * A crowd of about 200 people used stones to smash windows at the Austrian embassy in Tehran, and firecrackers and smoke bombs were set off

    * In Indonesia, police fired warning shots at protesters outside the US consulate in Surabaya, the country's second largest city. Earlier, demonstrators hurled stones and broke windows at the Danish consulate in the city, and there were protests in the capital, Jakarta

    * Riot police in the Indian capital, Delhi, fired tear gas and water cannons to disperse hundreds of students protesting against the cartoons

    * Shops and businesses across Indian-administered Kashmir were closed after a general strike was called in protest at the drawings

    * In Thailand, protesters shouted "God is great" and stamped on Denmark's flag outside the country's embassy in Bangkok, the Associated Press news agency reported

    * There were protests outside the European Union offices in Gaza, following demonstrations there last week.

The cartoons first appeared in a Danish newspaper in September and caused outrage among Muslims, who consider any images of Muhammad offensive.

One of the cartoons shows Muhammad wearing a bomb-shaped turban.

Newspapers across Europe republished the pictures last week, saying they were defending freedom of expression.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm

it's a forum not a news room. we have google. we have internet. we can check articles if we want.

Really now? What a surprise!

im sorry but where in the rules does it not say to post a news article relevant to the discussion the news had moved on 4-5 days since topic started and new things have happened since

i know, but it's just that the articles are long and, at least post the link, and extract and that's cool
but like 2 pages of text .... it makes the thread un-readable.
and we're also interested in what YOU have to say, not some journalist.


peace ;)

Scroll down!

and..........

It never hurts your brain to read!

 ::)

gimme the link and i'll go read it on the nice formated source webpage.
reading the article in plain text on this forum does hurt my brain :)

(http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=tbn:SoB7-Kr7AJqYGM:www.poster.net/monty-python/monty-python-my-brain-hurts-4001113.jpg)  :rofl:

man, how did u get that picture of me ? it's like 2 year old ....

there's something called free speech and there's respect. that crossed the line. i mean, look at the ideas that will go into childrens heads about muslims that look at that cartoon?

yes and look at the families of the people who have torched those embassies...not exactly respect is it? and not exactly a great example they set for their children...muslim tinted spectacles

and one thing to note...you have to earn respect..you will find there is very little respect for the muslim religion in the western world...maybe if you earned some respect then papers wouldnt print muslim-based humour...judging by current trends, that isnt going to happen soon

with the muslim world reaction to these cartoons, and the subsequent interest in it by the western world dont be suprised if you see numerous muslim humour sites set up...supply=demand

...and it's days like these when i think to myself that im glad im an athiest

Q i agree with you, they're not showing respect. i'll admit, when i heard the news, i was a bit agitated, as were many. They should complain but not use violence. the thing that makes it offensive is the image sending across to more easy manipulated mind like if a child sees this cartoon, he'll think all muslims be terrorist which totally isn't true. i think that whoever designed this was a fool for being so inconsiderate and wud feel like slapping him. He/she needs explanation of blasphemy in Islam.

Just for the record, Bin Laden is not a good example of a muslim if supposedly, he;s a terrorist. he has a niece in the porno industry which no muslim would allow.

by the way, those verses from the qur'an you happen to quote, have u studied the whole of the qur'an?? because thats very biased. what about the stories where there was rules about true jihad (fight for struggle) which is to only kill those who kill you. to leave temples and stuff alone and not to raid them unless you own the land. Fundamentalists havent caused suffering, thats terrorists. And what's the point in having a religion if you don't spread it? You obviously barely surfaced the qur'an, havent you then?? Also, he didnt "create" islam to marry a 6 year old. He was chosen by the Angel Gibra'eel. also, "kill idolaters where you find them" in what circumstances? what does the rest of the qur'an say? what does the rest of surah say? How do you know it wasn't about war situation?

Well you are a fundie then, since you condone the murder of people who made this cartoon!!

Quote from: Sakib on February 03, 2006, 04:03:59 PM
i fucking h8 the idea and i want to kill the bastard who thought of blaspheming the Prophet Muhammad in such an offensive manner

if you read my post, it says i maybe a bit aggressive cuz i was upset when i read it. anyways, im not good enuf muslim to be fundamental.

so he?s a terrorist because he`s in the porno industry right??



ok so you?re not fundamental......   yeah  ok...  you didn`t speak about flying planes into skyscrappers....    only killing some guy who draw a cartoon.......


i`m a very tolerant guy in general, but all this shit really annoys me.  christians behaved like that, too. 800 years ago my friend.....

 AND PLEASE PAY ATTENTION: i don`t believe in god. neither allah nor the christian one.  so i can`t understand this religion shit in general.  it only causes fights and hate.


by the way you`re on the exact same level as those fuckheads running around burning embassies and flaggs.... you hsouldn`t threat to kill someone who draws a cartoon.. 

i suggest you to read the post #45.  above all the part about the jesus cartoons in the NY times.....

one question: did you even see those cartoons?  i suppose not.......



and well.....  i see a serious problem here.....  this iranian president behaves like Adolf Hitler. he activates it, but the rest of the world is afraid to say something.....

if this wasn?t that dangerous this would be really fuckin`ridiculous.............  i mean educated human beings acting like babarians..........

i suppose you dont understand my posts. I said i was a bit aggravated when i read it so i was a bit upset and i apologise so im not a fundamental muslim (someone who follows islam the way it should be. not many nowadays). and secondly, my point on the porno industry is that if he allows his niece to be in such industry, he can't be an example of a good muslim, right?

you know, for a 15 year old, thats far too aggressive a comment to make

so what gives any muslim the right to tell another person what to say or do outside of their religion, their laws and their country? if anything these demonstrations have proven that the islamic religion is backward, people are easily led with no sense of critical thinking, are intolerant of other religions and nationalities and ultimately blind to the truth

yeah    ok   osama is no good example of a muslim.........the fundamentalists don`t seem to care about his involvement in the porno industry that much, right?

and well..... i suppose those guys in indonesia burning the embassy of danemark are "a bit upset", too.....  it`s pathetic.

please notice that it`s not my aim to offend the regular muslims, but what`s going on among the hardliners (they seem to be quite much....) isn`t bearable anymore....   

i have to admit that i use to be a hardliner against bush. and i understand that the people in afghanistan and iraq don`t want american soldiers there, but burning the embassy of danemark goes too far......

i also understand that religion is an important part of the live of a muslim/christ/ whatever, but i can`t understand feeling offended by some fuckin`cartoon.....   get a life : ok:


and please read the article posted in post #45.      there`s something terribly wrong..... and i`m not speaking about tolerance !!  people in europe are doing everything to be tolerant and muslims think they can do whatever they want....  or don?t you think the bit about the bugerking ice creamn isn?t ridiculous??

IIsrael understands things faster than any other country in the world because they have no choice: They have had to face to terrorism for over 30 years, if not, they die. Defend themself against Terrorism is not new for Israel. Another thing to explain why this tiny country succeeds so well: Intelligence. Intelligence everywhere. People are extremely intelligent in this country. Everything goes at 100 miles/H.

yeah Israel rocks !!! they have great tanks !! and i heard their rockets can kill like at 99% chances !!! that's pretty good !
and also they are the only one in the world who makes guns for kids !! yay ! man i can't wait to buy guns for kid !!
man israel kicks ass ....

?_____?

people need to take distance with such things as countries, governement and so on. you're not the car you drive. and you arenot the country you live in. even less a country you dont live in.

i mean, nesquick. move to israel already. you'e always rooting how great i am ? who does that ? are you that insecure ? why do you have tto bring how israel is great ALL THE TIME ? we GET IT ! :)


back to the topic:
this is a very clear situation here. our non-spiritual-world (western civilization) clashes with a religious world. we dont understand them. they dont understand us.
our god is money.
their god is a book.

who would have thought that world war 3 will be a religious war .... ? we better kill our idols fast before they kill us.

Something I think alot of people are neglecting is that there is a refusal in the islamic world to adapt and change.  In the western world, we are litterally plagued with interests groups that want to change society for what they deem the better.  In the market place of ideas, those who present logic and sound arguments generally win.  If someone advocates for change in the Islamic world, they are immediately silenced or worse, killed.  To state that acts or terrorism and accepted Islam have no ties is a pipe dream.  With the exception of Turkey and Iraq (and now Afghanistan) every other middle eastern country derives their laws from the Koran.  When America and its allies made a choice to bomb Iraq or any other middle eastern nation, our streets weren't flooded with celebration at the announcement of civilan deaths.  If they were, our socities would frown upon those individuals whereas in the Middle East such acts are praised and supported from the ground up.  People forget that the majority of individuals in the Islamic community want to exterminate the Jews.  There is a difference between being a muslim in America and most of Europe and a muslim in the Middle East (although the line in Europe is quickly fading it seems).  What makes matters worse is when intelligent people from the West justify the actions and practices of the Middle East as simply culture.  How quickly they are to exclude that many of those practices in the Middle East were once the standard in the West but no longer are.  I can't believe that some people belive that basic human rights and equal rights don't apply to anyone outside of the West.

As long as Sarkozy is there, absolutely not.

i was talking about your country (we sometimes wonder if you're french or not ...) , and feelings. not physical security. you always bring *isreal's great, isreal's that, israel's this ... " you sound like the guys who always babble about gay people .... insecurity. lack of confidence. live by yourself. not by your country or your mother's religion. the fact that you are jewish or what ever, is just a coincidence.



Guns N' Rock Music > well this is a good point. but let met tell you something. our universal moral, the oh so famous declaration of human rigth, so praised here in france, .... sometimes washed away by american military ( ... :) ) ... well , that is OUR point of view.

they are in a different culture. religion comes first. sacred comes first. why would they change ? why is *becoming more like us* a necessity ? that's not in our saying. they do it if they want.
last night on tv, the former foreign affair minister was talking about that, and made it clear. there are a lot of democrats and moderate muslim in these countries. they talk. in the press. in the books. but it's an internal fight. political too. these governments cannot show weekness here and move along with europe, understanding these cartoons ...  if they do so, they know that the islamists will take the opportunity to get public approval. that is what happened in Palestine. islamists use people's anger and desperation, and poverty. simple.

interesting article. Maybe the ice-cream was pathetic. However, the cartoons are offensive and like a said many a time, freedom of speech does not mean abuse others

freedom of speech means i can say what ever i want
if i wanna say " god is stupid" i can say it.
i mean marilyn manson said it
nietzsche said god is dead
i can make fun of god, of WHO ever i want.

the only limit is when it gets personal. are you mahomet ? no. he's dead. milliosn year ago. so voil?.

but man. it's a HUGE manipulation from Syria and Iran. i mean come on. the cartoon were released in SEPTEMBER.

syria is trying to slow down the investifgation on hariri assassination
and ira with the nuclear shit.

all politics. normal muslim dont care what a danish newspaper might say.

Walk, you really are more biased than i thought. You seem to hate Muslims and thing that we're violent thugs. I could be wrong. Anyways, he're are a few ayaahs (verses from qur'aan) translated. focus on the bit i've highlighted from Walk's post. Ayaahs are number. i'm reading from Surah 9-At Taubah or Baraaa'ah (Repentence in arabic). quoting from surah 9:1-7

1.Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His Messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
2. Travel freely in the land four months, an know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His guidance).
3. And a proclamation from Allah and His Messenger to all men on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. so, if ye repent, it'll be better for you; but if ye are not averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve
4. Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (the muslims) gave a treaty and who have since abated nothing of your right not have supported anyone against you. Fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them, besiege them ?and prepae for them each ambush. but if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is forgiving and Merciful
6. And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh they protection (O Muhammad) then protect him so thay he may hear the word of Allah and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are folk who know not.
7. How can there be a treaty with Allah and with his Messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.

I'm trying to show you guys Islam isnt bad. I'm no perfect example of a true muslim. no one on the media i can think of. think of it that if Islam was all about bombing and what not, why is it "the fastest growing religion in the world?" You think so many people in the world are prepared to destroy themselves and other innocents and act as animals and crash jets into buildings? if you do, you're crazy???? ?

Islam is the fastest growing religion because of the migration of Islam from the Middle East to Europe and the refusal or inability of most Muslims to educate themselves and see all religions (save Buddhism) for what they truly are; control.

Sure it does, haven't you ever seen an episode of South Park?

Well if muslims don't want us to think they are violent thugs, then maybe they should stop acting that way?Destroying embasies, and calling for the kidnapping and dismembering of innocent people is most definately the work of voilent thugs. And who was it that ordered these things to happen? Hmm let me think... Oh right I got it, it was muslim religious leaders. Sure paints a funny picture for the rest of the world that's for sure.....

So what? Whats your point? You think i agree with the embassies being destroyed? And no i've never seen south park. Normal Muslims DO CARE because what are people that don't know much about islam think??? If you gave it to a child who doesnt know, what'd they think?  It's kinda like Germany pre-World War 2. Unfortunately, due to unreliable leaders such as Saddam Hussain and ayatollahs, they need some law and order and it seems to them that the more radical parties seem to take more action if that makes sense. Btw, this shit with Palestine and Israel is going back 100s of years not 30. Do you believe everything you read and see on the news??

and well..... i suppose those guys in indonesia burning the embassy of danemark are "a bit upset", too.....? it`s pathetic.

please notice that it`s not my aim to offend the regular muslims, but what`s going on among the hardliners (they seem to be quite much....) isn`t bearable anymore....? ?

i have to admit that i use to be a hardliner against bush. and i understand that the people in afghanistan and iraq don`t want american soldiers there, but burning the embassy of danemark goes too far......

i also understand that religion is an important part of the live of a muslim/christ/ whatever, but i can`t understand feeling offended by some fuckin`cartoon.....? ?get a life : ok:


and please read the article posted in post #45.? ? ? there`s something terribly wrong..... and i`m not speaking about tolerance !!? people in europe are doing everything to be tolerant and muslims think they can do whatever they want....? or don?t you think the bit about the bugerking ice creamn isn?t ridiculous??

tell me im wrong but you seem to think i wanted to burn the embassies. We're offended by the cartoon because of the image it gives about Muslims. And if you cant understand it, that your problem, as u've ignored so many of my posts (it seems to me that way) i'll say again, i was upset as were many but at least i manage to control myself from being ridiculous and burning Danish flags. I only agree with describing the implications of the idiot who drew that cartoons action in the future. Also, those people dont have to convert, its choice

The problem is not if I feel "french" or not.? Obviously I feel french, and I am. The problem is that sometimes I do NOT feel "in France". Like million and million of French citizens. When I go to "portes de la chapelle" (just an exemple), I feel in Iran.

What i don't believe the government is doing of all these "western countries" is reinforcing the law in immigrants heads. Some of them arent educated well enough to realise there's a law for everything. Due to terrible living states in some countries, you get kids and what not driving at the age of 6 (literally) and firing guns and what not at a young age. Now, if a child say has had these experiences, then by the time he's in his/her adulthood, s/he wont know any better (providing conditions dont change). When that adult migrates to western world where there's law and order (to some degree), s/he wont know what to do. s/he'll think they can buy a car and drive recklessly without a license. Believe they can sort arguments by beating people to deaths. THEY NEED TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO!! LAW NEEDS REINFORCING!!

wow ... so if i go to New York i feel like where ? africa ?
people from every country are everywhere. but if you want things to change and if you like france, you should stick up more for it, and not for israel. you walking on french streets and using french metro .... after all.

bakc on subject.
it's all politics. and sakib, one question > do you accept that people can think that god does not exist and that religion is bullshit ?
would it have been less insulting, if we said " god sucks ! "
we didnt insult persons. we insluted a concept / dream / faith > unreal.

as a jewish, Israel is my 2nd home. this is something you will probably never understand. Both countries are as important for me. half of my family lives in France, and half in Israel. Those 2 countries are like my mother and my father. Do you have a problem with that?

yes. i dont like community feelings and *being part of something*. that's why i hate religion.
but you do as you want. just don't forget that you're in France. cause you dissed paris by saying it looks like iran ..... well people can say " man it looks like israel ! why can't they go home ? " .... it's called racism.

I just find this whole situation comical.

The point of the cartoon was that groups of muslims (a minority of muslims) use their faith as a rallying cry to spread violence against anyone who doesn't share or opposes their views. As soon as the cartoons surfaced, what is the first thing that happened?? Mass violence against embassies, and groups calling for the beheading of those responsible for the cartoon. (nothing like giving that stereotype legs to walk on)

Also here in the US, the AP has refused to circulate the images to their clients (major news outlets) because it is offensive...... But an art exibit featuring Virgin Mary covered in Cow Dung, or a Crusifix in a jar of piss is more than news worthy and should be covered by the New York times..... Do you know why, fear...... Christians aren't going to burn down the New York times for printing an offensive picture of the Virgin Mary or Jesus Christ. But if the Boston Herald printed the cartoon in question there is a greater than fifty fifty chance that Boston MA would become a one newspaper town because the Herald Headquarters would be blown clear across Rt. 93.

actually it?s go on for like 60 years.....



well you can say whatever you want....  your first reaction here was "kill that fucker!!".... 
i know you wouldn`t say that again, but this statement from an educated muslim (at least i think so...) isn`t casting a positive light on neither you nor the islam in general. i also know that lots of muslims are against violence etc, but every muslim has to accept that there are other oppinions...

and all the religions of the world have way too much influence on the people by the way. it just causes violence and hate..... and to people like me who think there is no god, etc this is insane.... it ought to be insane to muslims, christians etc, too, because basically you`re all believing in the same thing.

and by the way..... why the fuck are muslims even caring about this shit??? it`s RIDICULOUS!!   are there christians burning embassies, because of those jesus cartoons etc?? i don?t think it`s allowed to draw a pic of god, nor to make fun of it in that religion either......     well they did "burn embassies" by the way........ 800 years ago as i said....     

i don? t think it`s right that people have to die, because of a book that was written 1400 years ago.......

in response to WARose last post, i'm happy to accept people don;t have to believe in a god. And i have to respect that because i go to a school where i'm the only muslim and coloured person (out of 1200 pupils). they arent religious at all. I would get annoyed if some1 said God sucks which is typical of people who see life negatively. However, to talk about someone like a Prophet like that, i'd find it offensive. I also find it offensive if you cuss Jesus as Jesus was a Messenger of Allah before Muhammad according to the qur'an. our story goes differently though toward the end. I'd also get annoyed if you cuss a Jewish messenger that appears in the qur'an such as Musa (Moses) or Ibrahim (Abraham). Unfortunately, due to a lack of education in majority of Muslims nowadays, they dont study the qur'an, thus they dont know how to react and dont know the true detail of the qur'an. as far as making fun of Isa (Jesus), i saw a cartoon to do with his crucifixion. Muslims believe he wasnt crucified at all. Instead, i think it was the Roman general or Judas (I'll check again) who got crucified. I'd be offended if you made fun of some parts of the Torah as parts of them are agreed to be true as theyre mentioned in the qur'an, such as parts of the Talmud (refer to me nesquick if i blunder).

So what is the image being given off? This behavior is just reinforcing the attitudes the comics were making fun of. It would be better if the muslim world laughed it off. That would be proof enough that muslims, fanatic or not, are not like that.

Stop Hypocrisis. why do you think Le Pen went to the 2nd tour of the presidential in 2002? Open your eyes dude. It's not good to avoid seeing problems.

still. religion sucks ass.
and if people wanna say God is a Moron, they can. mahomet, yahve, jesus ... who ever you want.
respecting people is one thing. making fun is another :)

sakib, what you don't get, is that YOUR SACRED, is not our sacred. and you CANNOT apply your rules of fear - fear of going to hell ? - to us.

see, let's say, i start a cult where britney spears is our godess. will you stop makin fun of her because of us ? nope.

what you don't get. is that your sacred means nothing to us. making fun of mahomet is like making fun of a tree. it's nothing.
then again. respecting PEOPLE is important. so we dont make fun OF Mr. Bob or Mrs. Jane .... we make fun of a concept > religion > and especially when it's used in that way > terrorism.

edit: all that was an exageration to show how people think on different level. no offense :( you have the right to believe in lies....i mean, books :)

religeon will be the death of us all.its getting so fukin lame that a stupid cartoon can cause so much damage.i have my beliefs but if someone was to mock my beliefs and religeon then thats up to them coz at the end of the day,if i believe it,doesnt mean you have too. :peace:

i don`t like how everything you do must be allowed in a 1000+ years old book.......  and well this book can be and is interpreted in many ways....... it`s the same with women etc.....

and by the way i watched a tv show vesterday and some leader of a muslim organistation here in germany told that it`s actually not forbidden to have pics of muhammad..... it`s just the interpretation that makes it forbidden i guess.....

and what really strikes me is that like 99% of the muslims didn`t even see those cartoons....  but are offended though....   i think this all is really bad manipulation.....   these pics were printed in september....   i don`t think these pics are the reason fot this, they`re just an excuse for terrorists and uneducated muslims......

and i heard that the governments of vertain countries are supporting this shit, by making people acting the way they are.....



and my opinion is that there has to be such a thing as respect towards religions and stuff, but since everyone is allowed to think whatever the fuck he wants you can`t press it. you  have to accept that religion is bullshit to lots of people and violence won`t stop that.   what is really ridiculous, is that those cartoons were actually about the violence and stuff. and what do certain muslims do to disprove that??   

The Muslim population is acting like a three year old throwing a tantrum when they didn't get their way.  Why don't the Arabs clean up their press?  "Curse you for being anti-Muslim but it's OK if we bash the Jews and Christians."  How do you spell hypocrit?  A R A B S!

yeah let's kill them all !!

Real intelligent post, Wat ever I'm totally not a thinker.

the fact that its a picture of the prophet muhammad is bad enough

the arabs i know are very nice people. All the bad stuff about em i hear is on tv

sakib?   are you really sure it?s forbidden?

Really, who cares?  It's a cartoon.

I guess the question is: What would Muhammad do?

WAT-EVER, im totally buggin':

Im not a church goer and dont really have a certain classification of faith, but Ive been reading about God and my existence over the past few months, and ironically started the Holy Bible just last weekend...only finished Genesis at the moment though...but I can tell you it's the most unreal piece of literature you could ever feast your eyes upon...

Have you ever even read a single page of the Holy Bible?...

You're entirely right that your comments that: "religion sucks", or "god sucks" may not be offensive to the majority, but I do have to admit it does make you look like a total jackass...

Like honestly, at least read and understand what the fuck it is your slamming before you even have the words at your fingertips..

Religion doesnt have to be a "restrictive community" or however it is you put it...

Id urge you to read the Bible and related texts in the comfort of your own fucking home, and deconstruct it's many possible meanings with your friends and family too accumulate how this book has, and could potentially shape your future...

If you choose not too, I dont care..you have free choice...

By the way the whole Bible is essentially emphasizing the gift of free choice that God gave you....

But please dont spam a good debate thread with stupid rumblings like "Religion sucks"

How could it possibly suck if you dont partake in it? :-\

3000 people partook in it on 9-11 didn't they?

Edit to say: Took part of, but not by choice.

So because 3000 idiots decided to commit a travesty, those who choose to believe, and research their origin of existence are just as bad?

Seems like your painting everyone outside of your values and morals with the same paint brush...

I think you misread what I wrote.

HOW DARE YOUR INFLICT YOUR WAYS ON OUR FREE SOCIETY Im Sorry but we in a free society do not live under the strickt code of Islam, we have the right to FREE SPEECH, whether you like it or not we in the west live in a free society.. very often there are cartoons and articles in the New York Times that discriminate against jewish and christians all the time, Islam has been hijacked by the small portion of extremist, what happend to the muslim people, they where the first culture to allow women to own buisnesses participate in politics and own land now over a thousand years later they're no longer allowed, why the hate

Why Violence is that what ISLAM IS??? COME DESTROY ME

my *religion suck* comments. were there. because this debate is not going anywhere. it will soon lead to a "is religion good" debate or a " political" debate ..... meaning. stupid.

so let's stop there :)

and guild1 comments are the least we need here.

How about trying some other tactic besides instigating others.  You try to push buttons with your ignorant "all religions sucks" BS. 

cause the thread wasnt going anywhere. so it was better to end it there. your agressive comment [towards *people*] proved it. mine was on religion, and religion .... is not a person.

i mean really.

Yea.........what she said.


(http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/4933/jesushappy9dv5za.gif) (http://imageshack.us)

No offence intended, just had to post this...

(http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6892/golfsaledemo5jl.jpg)

Great!!!

Now you have done it.......

Two golfers have just blown up the Buckhorn golf course snack shop.

I hope you are proud of yourself.

OMG Allah will strike you down how dare you depict these cavemen uggh ugh... sorry fundamentilist good hearted muslims going to a Golf Sale, duh didnt you know golf was outlawed jeez, i call a jihad on you, this is a western conspiracy to put golf clubs in the hands of the muslim people.. 

well, he would probably be very angry. And WARose, i am very sure. if it mentions in the Fatwa, then it obviously. fatwa like guidlines.

So whats the fight for struggle for then? seeing thats what jihad is. Freedom of Speech is what seemed to be offered in Germany before hitler changed it. And he printed cartoons to offend Jews. People thought they were lame, funny and didnt see why jews found it offensive. Then came concentration camps. Well, if this is what you think free speech is, then it obviously wrong. You obviously seemed to miss understand jihad completely. Also, if jews and christians aint defending there religion muslims will. and that pic of jesus is wrong. If you saw the demonstration in Trafalgar sq. London on saturday, it says the true meaning of Islam with scholars.

I write and I quote, "I'm glad to have been captured by the taliban and not the americans."

                              -aka Yvonne Ridley in a debate against islamophobia (ex British journalist)-

obviously, Islam and religion isnt as bad as some things. You guys obviously dont realise youre letting a handful of muslims depict your idea of religion.


Why is ignorant what you seem? prove me wrong. AxlsMainMan, i credit you for being the only one who is doing true research, atm, im trying to look into the torah having seen bible many a time in RE lessons

All I have to say is:

F***ing muslim hypocrites.

Stereotyping just makes you look more ignorant. Remember how the media always focuses on BAD news.

Not all the muslims are rioting, only the fanatical ones who may have been provoked by Iran, Syria and terrorist groups.

And those who are blaming America for a Danish cartoon are truely being manipulated, misled  or really fucking ignorant.

Would he?

yes. portrays a very negativ image of muslims and the prophet himself. I'm sure if he observed the world today, he'd be disgusted in how ignorance and arrogance of some people today. He was an example of a near perfect dude

I doubt Muhammad would be out there burning buildings, just like Jesus wouldn't be yelling at women getting abortions.  Did you see any Christians burning down the offices of Rolling Stone?  Didn't Muhammad go and visit a woman that ridiculed him daily when she fell ill one day and failed to harrass him?

From what I have read he would not be killing people over a cartoon.

I didnt say he would brun and torch buildings. I said he'd be very angry=unhappy extremely. And you've obviously read the right information because he wouldn't. I'm no good example of  perfect muslim. And i agree with DEMONSTRATIONS but NOT VIOLENCE e.g. torching buildings, death etc. That demonstration in Trafalgar Square was perfect in how to portray the message of anger. What i love about Islam is that it's the first religion i know where in the holy book it makes a direct reference to black people being equal; Note i said DIRECT reference. No offense to other religions but that's what i've seen and read.