Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Those pesky Mexicans are ruining Amerika.....

How can 'Merikan children fulfill their dreams of becoming landscapers, dishwashers, and fruit pickers now?

What's next? Singing the national anthem in Spanish?

I think there is alot more to it than that.

Think of all the tax dollars, think of how many are jailed. think of all the gang bangers and drugs that come across the border.


Sure there are some great illegals who just want to make some money and provide a better life but there are a whole lot of bad ones as well and u cant have an open border.

its just as much our falt as it is theirs

we are the ones who pay them under the table.

end of discussion.

Somebody missed the sarcasm curve ball........

The system is already failed, and it is too late.

All you see now is political posturing. If they really wanted to "solve the problem" they would have done it already. Fact is that these illegals are a new slave class that create great wealth for the businesses that hire them. Also putting an unfair pressure against the honest businesses that do not sell out this country to make a buck.

After all the prejudice is peeled away the facts remain that "Illegals" pay plenty of taxes, including federal.

I missed the sarcasm but now I read it, I shouldnt have cause it remindsme of your Doppleganger alter ego u had a while back......... AMERIKAAAAAAAA! :hihi: :hihi:


u are right though.

I absolutely get what u are saying and agree.

but seriosuly, . . . .

Dey tuk our joabs!!! :rant:

Salga a los mexicanos pobres s?lo

you guys think that way because you have never starved, if you had, you would understand  :-\

I don't blame them at all, are you kidding me?



Of course I am not upset because it's all a farce anyway. Nobody wants them to really "leave", because they have become too important to big (and small) business.

still i agree, many of them give latin people real bad reputations, that?s something that can?t be denied

To me they do not. Because every Mexican ( I don't go around asking for green cards, so I don't know their status) I have known has worked their fingers to the bone. Easily working two jobs 7 days a week. Sending money home to their families in Mexico to build a home, take care of their parents, raise a family, or send their kids to college.

most of us (latin people, not only mexican) are like that, it?s so sad our governments are so corrupted and we don?t get in our own ground the opportunities and blessings that we get in the US.

Forgive us, for trying to move on with our lives and progress, and live with dignity, i apologize for those who make the some places in the States such dangerous places, we take no pride in that, believe me.

Actually that is not true.  They don't pay anywhere near what they receive.

I agree with this 100%.  I also agree with your comments about no one wanting to really solve the problems.  We have the left and the right pandering for the votes.  We have big business wanting the labor.  We have labor unions wanting more people to unionize, and we have the Catholic church wanting to fill the churches.

LEGISLATURE 2006: Illegals contribute, study says
Policy group puts taxes paid at $252 million
Carlos Campos - Staff
Friday, January 20, 2006

A study released Thursday by an Atlanta policy group estimates that Georgia's illegal immigrants pay up to $252 million a year in taxes, disputing the notion that they are only a drain on taxpayers.

The report was issued by the Georgia Budget and Policy Institute as the Legislature prepares to consider legislation to deny state-funded services to illegal immigrants.

Opponents characterized the study as an attempt to legitimize illegal immigration that does not assess the costs.

Alan Essig, executive director of GBPI, said the group had no agenda."We're having a policy debate, and we're trying to throw something out there that's credible," Essig said.

Essig said the study concluded that "this population is paying taxes. If you hear the political rhetoric, you get the impression they're taking all this money and contributing nothing."

Essig said the study was not financed by any particular group or individual.

GBPI says it is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization, though it is supported by and has received funding from groups advocating "progressive" social change and activism.

Sen. Chip Rogers (R-Woodstock), sponsor of Senate Bill 170, which would require state agencies to determine the legal status of Georgia residents receiving public benefits, criticized the study.

"I am aware of no other illegal activity that we will readily excuse because of suspect hypothetical profits for the government," Rogers said.

GBPI found that the average illegal immigrant family in Georgia pays $2,340 to $2,470 in state and local sales, income and property taxes combined. For those who did not file a federal income tax return, the contribution drops to about $1,800 a year.

The policy group used population figures from a Pew Hispanic Center study that estimated there are as many as 250,000 illegal immigrants living in Georgia, estimates from the same source that the average income for illegal immigrant families is $27,400 per year, and tax information from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy.

The study takes into account that as little as 50 percent of illegal immigrants file federal income tax returns. It also notes that the majority of illegal immigrants are renters, but assumes that landlords pass on a percentage of their property tax costs through monthly rents.

The study does not attempt to examine the costs of illegal immigration, including K-12 public education and emergency medical care, which states are federally mandated to provide. The study does note, however, that Medicaid spending on Georgia illegal immigrants, shared with the federal government, totaled $111 million in fiscal 2005.

Phil Kent, spokesman for Americans for Immigration Control, said those costs cannot be ignored.

Kent said the GBPI study is "wildly at odds with other studies and figures showing the increasingly high cost of so-called cheap labor."

He pointed to a FAIR study that he said found Georgia spends $231 million a year educating illegal immigrants.

Advocates for illegal immigrants hailed the GBPI study.

"This study reiterates what we already know --- that undocumented immigrants are contributing substantially to the Georgia economy," said Tisha Tallman of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund.
   

U think u got it bad? I was the only white person in my school English group! :hihi:

Over here in the good ol' Uk - we used to have a probloem with illegal immigrants - then we found a way around it

.....we included all the countries that immigrants came from into the EU - now they are legal immigrants

Horrah what a solution! Now these people have a HUMAN RIGHT to come here!

Now i aint against these chaps on some racial ground - but when half the people I run into dont speak a word of English, when houses prices are so high i'll probably only have enough money for one after I die, and when the roads are packed I have to ask the population be controlled

Ud think that was basic common sense...

when i left school i went to work in some hotels and shit to pay for my year out before uni. met loads of immigrants, legal or otherwise. almost all of them where far harder working than i was or probably will ever be. a 70 hour week was basic for most of them. never mind the fact that many had achieved a high level of education in their own coutry before coming over here to be told it doesnt count.


can't speak for america, but untill britain sorts out its own wasters then we've no right to turn down these people. british people don't want minimum wage to clean toilets.

Sure they do some jobs most of us dont want but at the same time if you came here illegally and they are going to try to find you dont boycott or whatever and ask us to change the rules and laws that were in place before they came here.... like it or leave it.. if your not a citizen or legal here you have no right to try to change the laws or rules..

Way more then I could ever work, that is for sure.


I agree with the rules, but there is a double standard in place now. I always thought that if every Mexican chose not to work one day Park City would SHUT DOWN. All joking aside, it would too.



Sounds like here.........

When did the ban on political threads get lifted?

Between this one and the Bushisms thread....I musta missed something?

Is it really OK to go back in the pool?

The water is warm..........



*************


Here is a question for everybody:

When Corporations can cross borders & outsource jobs with immunity, then why can't  people be able to do the same?

After all..........."Its a GLOBAL Economy" right? Are our leaders not telling us this?

Maybe its time we drop the "border"?

borders? we dont neeed no steenking borders  :hihi:

The mexicans are already taking over California, Texas anyways with the border... There is some kind of underground movment they have now where they are saying that the land was their land before the borders were in place and they are going to take it back with sheer volume of ethnicity in the areas....   

you said it best

Immigrants Demonstrate Economic Clout



By DAVE CARPENTER, AP Business Writer 2 hours, 54 minutes ago

Illegal immigrants made their point Monday: Without them, Americans would pay higher prices and a lot of work wouldn't get done.
ADVERTISEMENT

As nationwide demonstrations thinned the work force in businesses from meat-packing plants to construction sites to behind the counter at McDonald's, economists said there can be no dispute within the context of the contentious immigration issue that the group wields significant clout in the U.S. economy.

"If illegal immigration came to a standstill, it would disrupt the economy," said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com. "It would lead to higher prices for many goods and services, and some things literally would not get done. It would be a major adjustment for our economy, for sure."

Another economist, Diane Swonk, said it would be an economic mistake to restrict entry and work rights when revising immigration policy.

"Given the obvious hardship of having illegal aliens flooding in, we also know they are critical to the functioning of the U.S. economy," said Swonk, chief economist at Chicago-based Mesirow Financial. "To be turning our backs on people who want to work is kind of silly in an environment where you've got tight labor markets and we're getting older and need younger people to work."

While the full impact of the one-day Day Without Immigrants boycott was hard to immediately gauge, it was palpable in some industries with a heavily Hispanic work force. On-the-job turnout was dramatically lower at some locales in the meat-packing, masonry, restaurant and landscaping businesses, and numerous firms closed for the day.

Mike Collins, who owns 500 acres of Vidalia onions in southeastern Georgia, was forced to shut down his packing shed and postpone his harvest when none of his 175 seasonal workers showed up.

"We need to be going wide-open this time of year to get these onions out of the field and we have nobody working today," he said. "Losing a day in this part of the season causes a tremendous amount of problems."

Tyson Foods Inc., the world's largest meat producer, shut five of nine beef plants and four of six pork plants in anticipation of widespread absences. Perdue Farms Inc., the nation's third-largest chicken producer, closed eight processing plants in seven states. Cargill Meat Solutions, the nation's second-largest beef processor, gave more than 15,000 workers the day off and closed plants in six states.

Gold Kist, another poultry producer, shuttered two North Carolina plants and operated its two Georgia facilities at reduced productivity after many employees failed to heed requests by the company's managers and CEO to show up despite the protests.

"We've tried to be open," said Wayne Lord, a vice president for the Atlanta-based company. "They were urged to come to work today because of our focus on satisfying our customer requirements."

Others publicly supported their employees' cause. Arthur Velasquez, founder and chief economic officer of Azteca Foods in Chicago, said he was "extremely proud" of his workers and noted that illegal immigrants keeps alive companies that need seasonal employees.

"It's a seasonal situation, so people need workers right then and there," he said. "And either that or they don't survive."

Many companies rediscovered what they already knew: They can't operate effectively without the extra help.

Work sites operated in the Washington, D.C., area by Beltsville, Md.-based Manganaro MidAtlantic, a concrete and masonry company where immigrants comprise up to 75 percent of the work force, were quiet Monday. John Livingston, a business developer for Manganaro, said his firm has not been able to fill its staffing needs without immigrants for more than a decade.

Low attendance also was the story at hotels in Indianapolis, construction sites in Miami and plant nurseries and landscapers across a wide area.

McDonald's Corp. said some of its employees participated in the rallies, prompting it to operate an unspecified number of its nearly 14,000 restaurants with limited crews, shortened hours or drive-thru service only. The Oak Brook, Ill.-based company did not provide further specifics but released a statement saying it strongly supports U.S. immigration reform.

Carl Tannenbaum, chief economist at LaSalle Bank in Chicago, said the boycott underscores that immigration is not only political issue but a big economic one, too.

"The American economy really relies to a large extent on a growing labor force," he said. "There's a certain replenishment to the labor force that immigrants provide, and I think we have to be careful about taking steps that would hinder that process."

I am staring down on the march from a downtown LA skyrise right now.

How big ???

I'll counter that with one city's expenditures on welfare.  This doesn't take into account schools, medical care, etc, etc


http://dailynews.com/news/ci_3751199
Welfare to kids of illegals at $276 million
BY TROY ANDERSON, Staff Writer

 
 
Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich said Tuesday that he will tell Congress that close to 100,000 children of illegal immigrants in the county collect $276 million in annual welfare benefits.
Antonovich, who is in Washington with the Board of Supervisors, will meet with congressional representatives and provide information about the impact of illegal immigration on county services.

Antonovich said 98,703 children of 57,458 undocumented parents received Cal-WORKS welfare checks in January, or a total of 156,161 recipients.

"If incorporated into a city, it would be the sixth-largest city in Los Angeles County," Antonovich said in a statement Tuesday. "While legal immigration is a positive influence on our culture and economy ... in public safety, health care and public social services, illegals cost county taxpayers nearly three quarters of a billion dollars a year."

Shirley Christensen, spokeswoman for the Department of Public Social Services, said her office provided the data to Antonovich.

"What I want to make clear is the children we aid are legally eligible to be aided," Christensen said. "They are the children of undocumented parents, but they themselves are not undocumented. They were born in this country."


 
come amid a debate in Congress and across the nation about illegal immigration.

No reliable studies have been conducted on the economic impact illegal immigrants have on California government budgets, according to a study by the Public Policy Institute of California.

In 2004, the Government Accountability Office concluded there was insufficient information to establish the costs to states of educating illegal immigrant children.

Some in the immigration debate say illegal immigrants are a drain on public coffers. Others say illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in services.

Illegal immigrants are not eligible for many government services, but they can use the public health care system and their U.S.-born children are eligible for welfare.
 

I can only see some of them from where my office is, but there are lots and lots of people.?

They better not shut down the freeway again.  That certainly won't make me sympathetic to their cause.

How many billions a day do they add to the economy?

How can we really gauge the drain vs what they contribute?

Does corporate welfare drain our country even more?

etc etc........

You would think if they were contributing more to taxes than they take the schools, hospitals etc wouldn't be as overcrowded and California wouldn't be in as much of a deficit as it is.


I am certainly not one to argue against immigration, but the way it is done now is ridiculous.? I understand we need the workers, but it can't be done this way.? These people are here illegally and should be deported.? If we need that many people to come here and work lets go to all of the poor countries and give those who have waited legally a chance.  I am sure millions of Mexicans, Chinese, Africans, South Americans would love the opportunity to come here as well.?

I agree with you on the corporate welfare.? But, certainly you can't justify one wrong with another wrong.

I am not trying to justify, don't get me wrong. But it appears that there are plenty of things that drain our system, not just illegal Mexican workers. It seems to me that race plays much more of a role in this then people would like to admit.

How many illegals are there? Is it even realistic to deport them at this point?

The reform is asking that they become felons if caught, is that really going to help? To turn them into felons? I mean...c'mon now.

Seems as if we have painted ourselves into a corner. I don't see a realistic solution presented. We allowed it to happen, and now we have a problem with it, but there is no solution.

This is just another in the long line of distractions presented to us by our govt.  Let's see, abortion, gay marriage, revamping social security, the intelligent design debate and now illegal immigration.  In the meantime.......the planners are listing the viable targets in Iran!

You hit the nail on the head.

That and the other reasons I mentioned........they don't wanna "fix" it.




Mormon crap.........straight outa Utah. (Ala-Hole-E-War)

Oh I can just see it....

A bunch of old, white power-barons in the proverbial smoke-filled room, sitting around plotting and scheming.? ?::)

Distract us from what exactly???


And that's a bad thing?

Would you say that Americans are up to par on their knowledge of current world events and how our policies influence those around us?  Are Americans engaged in some of the social ills of the world i.e. Darfur?  the answer:  No, they are not but they don't want gays being married, evolution taught, etc. 

Yes, an Iranian excursion would be costly.  Everything they said about Iraq is true in Iran.  Maybe it was all just a simple spelling mistake!

See the "Bushisms" thread for more details............

what about pedro ? pedro's cool ... let him stay.

?

What you're talking about is what gets media coverage and what doesn't.? Obviously the "social ills" (a total understatement) in Darfur has not received the international attention it has deserved for so long.

But that fact has nothing to do with what others consider to be other "social ills."? Amercians aren't as stupid as you might like to think.? They can focus on more than one thing at a time.? I believe they are as "up to par" as anybody, despite what the average psuedo-intellectual on the internet might say.? They're busy going to work, raising families, and watch the 6 o' clock news.? The fact that Darfur hasn't received the international attention it deserves isn't their fault.? Nor is it their fault that a portion of a certain minority group chose to try and change what defines marriage, etc.


You're right, everything they said about Iraq is true in Iran.

Which is why not doing anything could prove more costly....

What could we do in Darfur? Even liberals don't want us there, since they're afraid it would become another Iraq. We conservatives don't want to go there because, unlike Iraq, it isn't full of resources we could use to better our country. Charity should start at home, anyway. We could stop giving money to other countries and give working Americans more tax cuts.

Anybody read the boy who cried wolf?

Please raise your hands.........

Pal I dont know if this was mentioned before

but some latin artists recorded a spanish version of the national anthem of the United States... ha ha ha  :hihi: :hihi:

Don't believe everything you think...........




That remark was a meant to be sarcastic.

I am curious how many people that are upset about singing the national anthem in Spanish, actually know all the words in English (honestly)?

I'll tell you what is worse then anything: Jon Secada singing the National Anthem for the Inauguration of Gov. Jeb Bush....

Somebody should have gone to jail for that........


(http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/6307/secada9ym.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Someone in Miami has some dirt on him. He caters to that community alot. I'm still waiting to hear how Miami-Dade got all that money after the hurricanes two years ago that didnt even touch that county.

There are lots of United states people who are against illegals... but  you might have seen this, when a reporter asked some gringuitos to point IOWA (us. state) in the map of the States, they couldnt do it, and there was even this guy who pointed South America as the States... so where is all this unnecesary hatred going?

Wait a minute... We don't own South America? With all the drugs we illegally smuggle and purchase from there we should get at least a part of it. We keep that economy rolling, and in the case of drugs, growing and blowing.

Raven

The reason why so many Americans can't find places on the map is because we have had to dumb down the education system to fit in all the illegals.

beautiful excuse...  :hihi:

This story at the always entertaining TheOnion.com is just too funny. http://www.theonion.com/content/node/47978
MEXICO CITY?As dozens of major American corporations continue to move their manufacturing operations to Mexico, waves of job-seeking Mexican immigrants to the United States have begun making the deadly journey back across the border in search of better-paying Mexican-based American jobs.
"I came to this country seeking the job I sought when I first left this country," said Anuncio Reyes, 22, an undocumented worker who recrossed the U.S. border into Mexico last month, three years after leaving Mexico for the United States to work as an agricultural day laborer. "I spent everything I had to get back here. Yes, it was dangerous, and I miss my home. But as much as I love America, I have to go where the best American jobs are."

A group of Mexican workers make the dangerous trek home across the Rio Grande for their lunch break.
Reyes now works as a spot-welder on the assembly line of a Maytag large-appliance plant and earns $22 a day, most of which he sends back to his family in the U.S., who in turn send a portion of that back to the original family they left in Mexico. Like many former Mexican-Americans forced by circumstance to become American-Mexicans, Reyes dreams of one day bringing his relatives to Mexico so that they, too, may secure American employment in Mexico.
Despite the considerable risk illegal immigrants face in returning across the border, many find the lure of large U.S. factory salaries hard to resist?at 15 percent of the pay of corresponding jobs in America, these positions pay three times what Mexican jobs do.

Still, the danger is very real. When 31-year-old illegal Arizona resident Ignacio Jimenez sought employment at an American plant in Mexico, he was shot at by Mexican border guards as he attempted to illegally enter the country of his citizenship, pursued by U.S. immigration officials who thought he might be entering the country illegally, and fired upon again by a second group of U.S. Border Patrol agents charged with keeping valuable table-busing and food-delivery personnel inside American borders.

"It was a nightmare," Jimenez said. "Many became disoriented and panicked, and some were mixed in with immigrants going the other way across the Rio Grande and ended up swimming to the wrong country."
He added: "My cousin almost drowned. They fished him out and sent him back to wash dishes at T.G.I. Friday's."
Many say the trip across the border as illegal Mexican-American emigrants offers them a chance to land the American jobs in Mexico they never have been able to get as illegal Mexican-American immigrants in the U.S.
"It has always been my goal to have a good American job," Johnson Controls technician Camilla Torres, 27, said. "Many Mexicans now see Mexico as the land of opportunity. Mexicans will not stop trying to get here, no matter how much the Mexicans wish we would not."

Indeed, the trend of illegal re-emigration is causing great resentment among the local Mexican population, and tension between Mexicans and illegally re-entered Mexicans?dubbed repatriados?continues to build.
"I hate these Mexicans, always coming back here to Mexico from America and taking American jobs from the Mexicans who stayed in Mexico," said 55-year-old former Goodyear factory manager Juan-Miguel Diaz, who lost his job to a better-trained repatriado last March. "Why don't they go back to where they went to?"
Still, Jimenez, Reyes, and hundreds of others say they have no choice.

"The American Dream is alive and well in Mexico," Reyes said. "If I work hard, save my money, and plan well, I will be able to send my children to a good school?and who knows? If they study hard, perhaps they will get jobs someday at the new plant General Motors is building in China."

Basicallly, I don't think it's an economic issue, or racial issue. Its an issue of class. Poor people are always seen as an eysore and when a family of 8 mexicans moves in next door you say "There goes the neighborhood." What you don't say is, "How the fuck are a group of illegals managing to live next door, when I can barley pay the rent?" The answer, they work more hours than you. As a Mexican (I'm technically american, but my parents are well they're american aswell, as are my grabdparents), ok I'm Mexican-American, I don't mind the illegals. I live in Texas so I see them everyday. I used to be a store director of a large reatail chain and can tell you that on the weekends, without the pusrchases of the illegals, we would never, ever be able to meet our our quotas. The corporation knew it as well. They don't bounce checks, they don't have debt everything is paid in cash. I'm currently in graduate school, and I have clasmates whose parents came here ilegally, was it not a fair trade off? These classmates will probably end up paying more taxes than a legal family of 5 in Mississipi, who don't wan to work.

I would like to ask everyone 1 question.

Would you rather pay an extra $2 per pay check in taxes (assuming illegals are using our government programs); or would you rather pay an extra $1 for fruits and veggies, and an extra $150 a month on your mortgage?

Because if we're serious about doing something about it fine, but be aware of wants going to happen.

I understand a lot of what you're saying. However, I don't see the correlation between illegal immigrants and my mortgage going up. If anything, illegal immigrants would make my mortgage go up by them being HERE. Housing costs have skyrocketed in the US over the past 2-3 years. While there are a lot of reasons for the inflation there's also a simple math equation to it...
More people (e.g. immigrants) buying houses than the market can properly sustain. Prices go up as demand goes up, so I highly doubt that my mortgage payment would go up if the illegal immigrants weren't here. If anything, it could be slightly lower.

Raven

The mortgages would go up, because houses would be more expensive to build. Contractors would have to pay a fair wage to people, which would be considerably more than what they pay illegals. People are buying homes because intrests rates have been so low. Combine a higher intrest rate, with the higher cost of building a home and you'll have a higher mortgage. The illegals don't effect my mortgage, most live in areas with high hispanic populations anyways. For the most part, if you have a fair job, your probably not competeing for the same types of homes that illegals are buying. I live in houston where major construction has been occuring for 5 years, especially in the building of new neigborhoods and subdivisions. Many are already saying that if somethings does occur the cost homes will rise the second a bill is passed.

Now that is bullshit and you know it.

Housing prices can't rise much more than they already have. In some parts of the country the "housing bubble" has already burst. Other areas haven't really seen too much of an increase in price, but for the most part housing costs will not be able to continue to rise. Construction companies are already making a ton of money, they'd still make a lot of money without illegal immigrants. It's not like EVERY illegal immigrant is in the construction business either, certain parts of the country certainly, but most have legally documented workers. Without the illegal workers housing costs may rise in certain locales, but the majority of the US wouldn't be affected.

Raven

BS or not, same result > http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=29371.0 :)

?Illegal Immigrant? is the new code word for ?nigger?. We essentially invited them here, gave them jobs, sold them cars, rented them homes and apartments; we welcomed their cheap labor. The real ILLEGALS are the racketeers who make billions these people breaking their backs. It most certainly is racism, the right has always needed a scapegoat. These people can not vote, fear the police, and are easy to crap on, unlike most other groups these days.


The politicians are all bought  by the business lobby and the business lobby all wants these people here. They don?t care if they are legal or not, what they care about is profit. They have have a huge interest in keeping the focus on the illegals and not themselves.  It is working quite well, since the silent (and not so silent) racism is strong in this country. If you really want to deal with this problem you are going to have to start handing out heavy jail time to the employers. These people came here because they were given work, not because they ?took it? after all. You either start throwing these employers in prison, real prison not a country club, or annex Mexico so these people can participate in our democracy instead of being our slaves. All the fences in the world won?t stop it, all the minutemen in the world won?t stop it, shitting on them more and turning them into felons won?t stop it. Did anybody every stop to think that if you turned them into felons your tax money would only be paying for them in jail? And they would not be working adding growth to the economy.

Nobody has answered my question either: When Corporations can cross borders & outsource jobs with immunity, then why can't  people be able to do the same?

cause corporations bring money with them and power
poor people bring ... legs and arms.

I'll turn your argument around, SLC. Corporations only hire the immigrants because they're there. Get rid of the immigrants, and the corporations won't hire them, and wages will remain higher for working class Americans. Fine corporations AND expel illegal immigrants.

I know it was, just trying to stir things up!  My belief is that schools started going to hell when they took the paddle out of the principal's hands, but this is another thread.

My biggest problem is the sense of entitlement that these illegals have.  They are entitled to nothing.  I f I went to any other country in the world and made these demands, what do you think would happen.  Also, the arguement that Americans won't do these jobs is BS.  Americans won't do those jobs at the pay rate that illegals do it at. 

Coporations hire illegals because they are cheap and they can pay under min wage or a  little more. Just like Corporations outsource jobs because it is cheaper for them.

My biggest problem is the sense of entitlement that these illegals have.  They are entitled to nothing.  I f I went to any other country in the world and made these demands, what do you think would happen.  Also, the arguement that Americans won't do these jobs is BS.  Americans won't do those jobs at the pay rate that illegals do it at. 

Sure they are entitled to nothing but they are given the jobs anyway. Why? The bottom line, that is why. You are right, Americans won't do these jobs at the pay scale. So..........Mexicans will, and corporations are happy to oblidge them!

How would the Mexican illegals feel if a bunch of Chinamen came in and undercut them?  Hold that thought, I had better be careful what I ask for!

Ha, China has issues with Southeast Asians taking some of their jobs.  ;)

That is complete bullshit SLC and you know it.? Talk about political correctness to an extreme.? They're immigrants because they weren't born in the US.? They're illegal because the broke the immigration laws we have in place.? Hence they are illegal immigrants.? You of all people on this board should not be buying into the media shove to make people equate "nigger" or anyother racial slur with Illegal Immigrant.? Spicks, wetbacks, those are racial slurs similar to nigger.? Corporations are just as much to blame ofr the problem as the people themselves.? I have no problem with hardworking people coming to America to do jobs that Americans refuse to do themselves.? Just think of how we could reform welfare if we made people fill these rolls similar to the welfare to work program in Michigan.?
? ?What I do have a problem with is people coming to America and utilizing our schools and hospitals when they don't even begin to cover the cost of those services.? Furthemore, they refuse to adapt to America or even learn the language.? While I'm sympathetic to illegals who cross the border, they are still criminals and should be treated as such.? I find it strange and naieve to openly welcome people into your country who defy the most basic laws.? Illegal immigrants and companies that knowingly hire them should be penalized.? Mexicans are hard and dedicated workers, no denying that.? There is no excuse for them not to go through the proper channels, learn our language while still being a productive member of our economy.

Why don't you ask John Kerry and the likes who served as heads of companies who outsourced many of their jobs?  Why don't you ask the people who support a welfare system that pays people to stay at home and do nothing?  They don't have unions in Mexico.  The liberalization of the youth of America has made our workforce lazy and it will only continue to do so.  Rather than commend someone for a hard days work, liberals and alot of Americans look at them and ask "What's wrong with you?"  As America becomes more socialst and implements more social programs, our productivity and sense of competition and survial will dwindle.

smoke weed...  8)

Sorry if these are naive questions...

How do illigal immigrants put a burden on our prison system?  Don't we deport them?

And which corporations hire them?  I've worked for a few corporations and we always made an effort to ensure we hired people with a legal right to work here.  Now I know they get jobs...I drive past a pick -up point for workers everyday and there are literally a hundred men standing on the corners waiting for someone to pull up in a truck and pick them up for the day.  But I don't think those guys are working for corporations.  It seems to me that small businesses are more likely to pay under the table than "corporations".

There was a small town not too far away from where I went to college and in this town is a pork packaging factory that primarily hired illegals.  I thinks its nmae was IPP or Indiana Pork Producers.  It was a state wide company and not a small business.  There were connections there and for 300 dollars a fake ID, immigration papers, banking account and a job were available.  It's not just small businessmen.

It has absolutely nothing to do with PC. They are the new "niggers" because it isn't acceptable to shit on anybody any more. They throw the term around and now are calling them felons on tv too. It is ok to shit on the "illegals" who are our janitors though. Make them the boogieman du jour so the corporations can sneak away undetected.

Haha, you didn't answer my question. I'm surprised you didn't mention the liberal media while you were on you rant.

Answer the question.

The talk now is charging them with a felony. I would guess that means they get arrested and sent to jail.

There are plenty of packing and shipping plants, poultry, restaurants etc that hire illegal aliens along side the small businessmen.

Recently IFCO was caught with well over 2700 illegal aliens working in the pallet wharehouse in NY. They had mismatching social security numbers and fake IDs etc.

Is this good or bad for the American working class?  Answer the question.

Of course it is bad, but nobody is "taking" these jobs from Americans, that is the point.

Just as it is bad that corporations outsource jobs to overseas is bad for the working class.

It is outsourcing the American people without even leaving the country to do so. Huge corporations like AT&T etc use prison labor for pennies on the dollar. Are you guys going to come forward and claim the prisoners "took" those jobs from the working man in America too?

Because a business is just that, a business.  Only a fool would pay some mediocre worker 12$ an hour when he can pay an excellent worker 5$ an hour.  That's simple economics and something I think you understand well.  If you want to solve the problem, start buying American products exclusively.  I say again, modern unions are the downfall of the American work ethic.  I don't think the problem will be solved because White and Black americans have lost all concept of a hard days work.  It's much easier to never educate or better yourself and bitch about the system than it is to work hard.  Americans have taken after their European counterparts and always look for the easy way out.  In other words, we're fucked.

You are all over the map and entirely missing the point(s).

Maybe he's having trouble locating your point on the map :hihi:

there is a definite correlation between these 2 current threads...does anyone see the connection? :o :hihi:

hahaha

Kujo: not afraid to double dip between threads............

Ive heard people on other Forums say its the new slavery.

That is highly inaccurate cause Blacks came against their will, Illegals volunteerily come.

Plus, what they make here is a fortune compared to what they could make in their home country.

here is a huge thing most people are failing to see.

Right now Illegals are happy doing the shit jobs Americans dont want to. what happens if they get their way and become legal?

u think they are gonna still do those same jobs?

FUCK NO

U will then have illegals taking people's jobs, the unemployment will skyrocket and then Corporations will find a new cheap labor method to do the jobs that now the illegals wont even want to do.

Corporations should be cut off from outsourcing and illegals should be stopped from coming here illegally.

A huge reason I didnt vote for SLC's boy John Kerry was, his wife's company is one of the biggest job outsourcers in the country. Kind of hypocritical for him to speak of that when his wife's family does it bigger and better than most corporations.

well, regular jobs require more education than strawberry picking does.  So I'm more worried about offshore outsourcing than illegals being able to take our jobs.


Jon Stewart said something like "Republicans want to make illegals felons, Prez Bush favors a guest worker program, and Democrats pray no one asks them what they think"  :hihi:

I ignored gunslingers reference to this because he was off subject and most people understand it to be untrue. But now I am going to address it.

1) I don't remember you claiming this once during the election thread

2) It is false anyway.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/heinz.asp

A quick search shows that it is a false claim made by the right to slander Kerry.

So, looks as if your choice to vote for Bush was based on a lie, when a 5 second search could have shown you otherwise.

********

Now, back on topic...........

Nope.

Its mostly farming, construction, hotel, restaruant etc.

I have already changed my voting registration because of the inability of the Republicans to take any lead on this issue.  The numbers are clear, yet Washintgon continues to ignore the common person.  By trying to get a possible future vote from these people (that never will vote republican), they are losing a sure vote in myself.

Anyone that votes for any sort of amnesty will lose my support and money for a lifetime.

Yeah, this deficit is clearly the fault of illegal immigrants. :hihi: ::) Sure, we should stop more, but the jobs they take are mostly jobs Americans don't want. Tax dollars spent as a result of illegal immigration is less than the tax dollars that would be spent to prevent it.

I completely disagree.  Americans are willing to do those jobs, just not at dirt cheap wages.  If the illegals weren't here people would be forced to pay more for those jobs.  I don't blame the average american for not wanting to crappy jobs for sub-minimum wage.  People will take those jobs if they pay the bills.

Your second point is just nonsensical.  All it takes is simple enforcement.  Most of the illegal immigration we have was easily preventable with the resources we currently have devoted to it.

I have no problem with Mexicans (or any group) who are trying to make life better for their familes by coming to America.  I just have 2 questions. 

1.  Why not do it legally?  So what if it takes a few years.  We have laws in this country and others (especially outsiders) should respect those laws.  And more importantly, we should be enforcing the laws or abolishing them altogether.

2.  Why not stay and fix the problem in your own country before abandoning it for greener pastures?  I know in America if we had the same problems, we would work to fix it before we just up and jumped ship.

Hey, I love  you SLC, but it is more  complex than  that. It (migration) is more complicated. The reality is that Amerika NEEDS illegals  to keep economic growth high, a source of cheap labor. If there  were no illegals  then the prices  for services and food would  be  higher. So the US government "pretends" to be against  illegal immigration but in reality turns a blind  eye  to it. If  the government  were  serious they would  do something, but they don't. Think about terrorism: the govt is "serious" and so we  have all sorts  of new rules and regulations  (take off your shoes and belt to pass  through airport  security). It is not a good example, but the Patriot Act is  a better example  of the govt cracking down. The point  is, if the govt  wanted to do something, it could (absent  of a wall), but the govt is not serious because at some level policy makers  understand that the US needs illegals to keep the  economic engine  going. The anti-illegal rhetoric is just politics.

Further, illegals  take  jobs that Americans don't want.

If you want to blame someone, blame  "capitalism" or globalism, but  the fact is that  the capitalist system  feeds upon cheap labor. And  illegals  fill that  void.

So what are you now? An Indy, Like me?

I think we are the same level, since that is what I have been saying the entire thread, reread my stuff.............

As I have stated  before:
1. most  of these threads are, at some level, political. It just depends how they are interpreted and if the mod is  cool or not.
2. to delete  these  discusssions  is  pointless and heavy  handed censorship. Who needs thought police on a forum that is supposed to be fun and for discussion? A less micro-managed approach, at least in The Jungle, would be appreciated.

right you are, I am just too tired/lazy to read all the postings.

karma, its having an effect on some people already  ;D

1.- It doesnt only take a long time, but a lot of money to get a VISA, and you have to pay  first, and wait to see if they accept to give you one, they might reject your petition and you might lose your money. That happens to most of the people who try to get a VISA.

I actually voted for Kerry to be honest. : ok:

 ??? ??? ???

I meant didnt support him. :confused: :confused: :confused:

My democratic mindset forced me to vote for him but I didnt support him and really didnt care if he won or lost.

That makes no sense but is the truth.

What a typo!

Yup.  I have always been independent minded, I just stayed registered (R) so I could vote in the primaries.

I seem to remember at the end of the story a wold did actually attack....

You forgot the moral though...........

SLC believe it or not, Ive actually started seeing a lot of the points u previously made. Not all of them, but a lot of them.

The only chances the Republicans have, in my opinion to keep the white house is if Guiliani runs or the Democrats back another John Kerry type.

I truly am a democrat, I promise, but Kerry to me was and remains a head scratcher.

After Bush's horrible track record and the horrible job he did, for a democrat to lose to a lame duck president like Bush is just inexcusable. So in an indirect way I blame democrats just as much as republicans cause had any kind of valid candidate ran against Bush, they would've won by a landslide.

how couldnt they have?


ON TOPIC:

I think this illegal immigration has to be handled very carefully. I think Pandora's Box has the opportunity to be opened here and I worry about the legal Residents here now that cant find a job.

I have been tryin for months and cant find work anywhere.So whats gonna happen if millions of illegals start getting the green light to get real jobs?

Factory work here is huge and u know where production is king, they will hire mexicans all day long.

that is not a racial slur or stereotype. I think Mexicans are extremely hard working individuals and factories who are about production would definitely hire them over anyone else.

WRONG. If it could be done with what we have now, it would be done. Basic physics shows us that you will always use(lose) energy. We can use this in this example. Tax dollars are like energy. They will be spent to do anything and everything that is done. We lose taxdollars when they get jobs Americans could've had, and we lose tax dollars when jailing them. At the same time, we would lose tax dollars preventing their entry into America. Either we need more people, more training, or more equipment. All of these take Tax dollars, an amount that will at the very least be equal to the amount we lose now.

Did you even read that snopes article?  The Heinz corporation is involved in a "different" kind of outsourcing.  And Kerry "only" has 4% of their stock.  I think you missed my point.  Kerry was involved with a lot more companies that outsourced their work than just Heinz, but keep believing what you want to believe; it seems to work for you.  Don't let facts or truth get in your way.

Well, sure more resources would be great, but the agents that are supposed to enforce these things have their hands tied behind their backs.  Believe me, I lived in San Diego for a few years; I have worked for the federal government and know quite a few border partrol agents.  The INS agents are not allowed to bust businesses or check for green cards.  Furthermore, there has basically been a catch and release program going on for years.  Of course they could use more resources; I was being some what facetious with my comments.  However, they could crack down on a lot of this with the resources we have and a few simple laws that deny illegal immigrants education, free medical care, welfare, etc.  Certainly though, the amount of resources it would take to crack down on this is nowhere near what we currently spend.  I don't know how you could think that to be true.

By the way, for anyone in a metropolitan city, the immigration protest on May 1st had the opposite effect to the common businessman.  SInce the freeways were clear in southern California, I certainly wasn't overexcited for them to return to work.

I understood in just fine. And it showed what you claimed was false. It presented what you claimed and then explained how it was false, and why it was false. At the end it even explained further:

Currently, 60% of the sales of the H.J. Heinz Company are outside the United States and to accommodate those customers by providing facilities closer to those markets, the company maintains a number of overseas facilities that provide products for consumers in those markets. This allows Heinz to pack the freshest ingredients, tailor its recipes to local tastes and deliver the finished products in a timely and efficient manner. In the United States, Heinz makes its flagship ketchup in factories in Fremont, Ohio; Muscatine, Iowa; and Stockton, California.

Now you are claiming it is "different", uh...ok.

Please point me to some articles to back your claim.

I found some articles that tried to claim Kerry's stock holdings contradicted his opposition to outsourcing jobs (since many of the large cap holdings in his portfolio did this.) This is quite a stretch to compare stock holdings an individual owns to a large corporation that chooses to outsource its jobs. It would be even more of a stretch to find a large cap company that did not outsource.

Owning a stock in a company does not mean that you ?own? that company. If so, then I would be a blue chip corporate giant around the globe.

Still, nobody has answered my question. Seems as if we have been taken off path once again by the diversion team.

The title says it all.... I hate it for one reason, they have all the jobs outside of offices.. All the unions that battled to give their worker's rights, good money now have to be under cut and cheated because the worker wants a fair wage.. All those jobs they under bid because they pay their off the book workers peanuts so they can become extra fat cats... The billions we have lost that would have went into social security.. I can't even walk the streets where I live and see Americans doing any blue collar work, landscaping brick laying carpentry etc all being run by some douche bag living high off the hog while they have these fly by nighters breaking ass for nothing.. But I guess nothing is ok when you made nothing before and you get to share an apartment with 15 of your closest friends...  The honest American worker looks like an asshole because he wants his right scale or weekends off (if not with OT) or working safetly...

Our grandfathers fought for good wages, lunch breaks, holidays, over time pay, set number of straight time hours, etc all to be fucking ruined by these tax cheating illegals....

So the regular worker looses out and the bosses get richer..

Someone emailed this to me and I thought it was an interesting take on the subject.

ASLEEP  AT THE WHEEL
 
I can almost assure you that everyone who is a true American was sickened when you saw multitudes of protesters carrying Mexican flags protesting the new Immigration Reform Bill in the Senate. This display of Mexican flags should give you a heads up on where these protesters allegiance lies. Their hearts are in Mexico and their bellies are in the United  States.
 
As an American of Mexican Heritage I want to set the record straight. American Hispanics are not all thrilled with illegal  immigration.  I, for more than 20 years, tried desperately to bring this national debacle to the attention of the American  people.  I had the privilege of writing for several newspapers,  appeared on national and local TV and radio programs, and was asked by many political groups to address this serious problem affecting my former community (north  Fort  Worth),  city, state, and our country.  Many will question how I can speak on this subject with some authority.  My simple answer is: I lived with the problem!  Trust me, it was no picnic.   Never in my life (I'm 68) had I witnessed the lawlessness, the  deterioration of my community, and the black market criminal underground activities attributed to the influx of illegal  immigrants.
 
To add injury to insult,  politicians soon caved in to the many demands of illegal immigrants.  Notably: bilingual education, bilingual ballots, welfare aid, free medical care, etc. Through all this national disgrace allowed by our  politicians, have you all noticed that no one ever blames the useless,  corrupt, and disgraceful government of  Mexico? In contrast, they lambaste and criticize our country.  How  does that grab you?
 
When I addressed the  dangers of our porous border between Mexico and the United  States, and the lax security of our nation, no one paid attention. As I observed the situation, the problem was perceived to be between American Hispanic communities and illegal immigrants. White Americans, it seemed, assumed that the problem was not theirs to deal with.   In other words they were asleep at the wheel.  However, 9-11 soon woke them up. Lets be honest with each other here, white Americans vote in far larger numbers than Hispanics do. And most politicians (Democrats and Republicans) in our city, state, and federal governments are white.  Thus, who is more suited to fix this national disaster?  I'm sure most of you know what the  answer is.
 
In summation, I'm pleading with white American voters to join me in sending our politicians (Democrats and Republicans) a strong message that we will not tolerate illegal immigrants telling us how to make government policy that will make it easier for them to break our laws.  Hope you will join me in this  endeavor in our upcoming elections.
 
James H. Reza

Question:  How does Mexico view illegal aliens in their country?

Answer:  They are viewed as felons.

But if we (the US) want to do the same thing them Mexico says it's bad for relations and blah blah blah.  I read a newspaper editorial the other day it said that the extremist groups like the Klan are really having a hayday with all of this.  For the record I do not want this to happen but the potential for a very ugly backlash is there.

That's interesting. So far we have been talking about illegals doing jobs that Americans dont want to do, but you're talking about blue-collar jobs that Americans used to do, back in the day.  I didnt know it was a problem in NYC too.

I think that's why the govt just pretends to be against illegal immigrants. They want to help big business maximize their profits.  Dirty deeds done dirt cheap.

You know something only a complete asshole believes mexicans or any other illegal does jobs americans don't want to do... Maybe if I didn't have a family and lived with 15 people (pooling my rent) I could live on that slave wage but truth be told Americans don't do those jobs because they can't live on that wage.. Who the fuck is going to live in nyc on those few bucks per hour??

Americans still do those jobs, there are tons of unions out there, it's just they are being under cut because their illegals don't make any money so they can bid anything for a job..

How about worker's rights and prevailing wage... I watched a bunch of mexicans doing ironr worker's work putting up steel beams by hand and scaffold.. It's fucking dangerous and idiotic. why do we have safe working conditions and tools, craines?? So now I have to work like an unsafe asshole because of these fucking criminals?

First of all... I'm mexican..... second..... I don't agree and I don't support illegal immigrants... but!!! this is an economic issue that happens all over the world where theres a 1st world country next to a 3rd world one..... it happens the same in Germany with Turkey.... the same in Spain with Morocco.... the same in England with Poland (despite they're not near from the other)..... and there's no way to avoid it.

... I don't excuse my country fellows..... but I find this normal for them since it's an economical effect of a lot of factors... we en Mexico have A LOT of immigrants from Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, etc etc etc..... and it happens exactly the same than in the USA......... so....... it's an economical effect, and it's more notorious in USA than in other countries because USA is the 1st economy in the world, and because USA and Mexico have the largest border in the world.... so.... we can look for answers.... but it won't stop..... no matter what USA or Mexico do........

Just my opinion

Well, sure more resources would be great, but the agents that are supposed to enforce these things have their hands tied behind their backs.? Believe me, I lived in San Diego for a few years; I have worked for the federal government and know quite a few border partrol agents.? The INS agents are not allowed to bust businesses or check for green cards.? Furthermore, there has basically been a catch and release program going on for years.? Of course they could use more resources; I was being some what facetious with my comments.? However, they could crack down on a lot of this with the resources we have and a few simple laws that deny illegal immigrants education, free medical care, welfare, etc.? Certainly though, the amount of resources it would take to crack down on this is nowhere near what we currently spend.? I don't know how you could think that to be true.

By the way, for anyone in a metropolitan city, the immigration protest on May 1st had the opposite effect to the common businessman.? SInce the freeways were clear in southern California, I certainly wasn't overexcited for them to return to work.

My point is still valid. If you put these regulations on business, they lose some money, lay off workers or raise prices, and in the end you've spent more money. If you want to do more than catch-and-release you will have to spend money in jailing or whatever it is you intend to do. Also, if our current forces are suddenly expected to do more, they'll suddenly expect to get paid more. There is nothing simple or easy in this, or any, debate. I'm not saying we shouldn't do something, but I want to make sure you all realize that this is an extremely complicated problem.

I could not agree more..........

WTF?

Washington, DC?In an unprecedented policy, the Bush Administration has acknowledged that it has been providing information about the location of Minutemen patrols to the Mexican government. In spite of widespread criticism of its failure to protect America?s security by regaining control of the border, the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agency has been devoting manpower to monitoring the activities of the Minutemen, even as record numbers of illegal aliens pour across our borders.

The information being turned over by the Bush Administration to the Mexican government is meant to reassure them that the rights of illegal border crossers are being protected. Mexican authorities have been kept abreast of where the Minutemen are patrolling and when they have made apprehensions of illegal aliens. Both Presidents Bush and Fox have referred to the Minutemen as ?vigilantes,? despite the fact there has not been a single documented case of abuse in more than a year of civilian patrols.

?This policy is a shocking and disgraceful display of pandering to the government of Mexico,? reacted Dan Stein, president of FAIR. ?Compounding this egregious behavior is the fact that the Department of Homeland Security is recklessly endangering the lives of law abiding citizens. Many of those running the border smuggling operations are violent criminals who would not hesitate to use deadly force against anyone who stands in their way.?

The policy of informing Mexican authorities about the activities of the Minutemen coincides with the Bush Administration?s efforts to institute a massive illegal alien amnesty and guest worker program. It has been the administration?s position that the only way to gain control of the border is to provide ?legal channels? for migrants to enter the U.S. to work.

?Not only does the Bush Administration seem to have no interest in controlling the border, they want to make sure no one else does either,? said Stein. ?What they want is an unending flow of foreign workers entering the U.S. and chaos at the border. They seem to believe this will strengthen their case for the amnesty and guest worker programs they so desperately want.?

According to a report in the Ontario, California, Daily Bulletin, Border Patrol officers have been told by the superiors not to give credit to the Minutemen when arrests occur based on their tips and have even been ordered not to respond to Minuteman calls.

?This is not a case of diplomatic protocol or protecting the rights of illegal aliens. This is a politically motivated effort to promote an amnesty/guest worker program that is overwhelmingly opposed by the American public,? Stein charged. ?What is even more shocking is that this administration appears willing to compromise the security of this nation and the safety of law abiding citizens to achieve its goal of a massive guest worker program.?

AP

Stories like that just make me sad.  How will our country ever recover from what this administration has done to it?  Its practically overwhelming.  It makes me not want to follow current events at all. 

bush doesn't care, his words in the past were like if your job goes away go back to community college.. That's pretty nice answer when you are a multimillionaire who never new what earning a living was or being out of work..

Illegals are american's fault too, I know plenty of people that pic up a mexican to do whatever they need done.. The fucking corners are loaded an random cars come by.. Enough to make someone sick..

I haven't read this whole thread but what about Cuba too?  It's just as bad.  I learned in US History class that they empty out their prisons and then send them to America on the boats.  What the fuck is that about??  This whole country is beginning to suck.  So much stuff that happens shouldn't be happening.  Fuck, a petaphile can rape a little kid and get 5 years, but if you rape an adult you get life.  Does that make sense??  Either one should be a death sentence.

Ever been to Miami?

Nope, but I hear it's a very bad place to be.  It has gone very downhill in the last decade.

This thread has also ventured into the ever so popular Kerry/Bush-zone...

Sorry.