Here Today... Gone To Hell!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061024/ap_on_re_us/virginia_senate_glitch

Its really a joke - you would have thought that in 6 years SOMEONE would get it right by now....

I know........why can't they? (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061019/ap_on_re_us/immigration_voting_threat;_ylt=AviaPca4RSEx0dFi0esYpaPMWM0F;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OXIzMDMzBHNlYwM3MDM-)

Are dirty tricks the only way to go about it?

Do we need to use exit polls as they do in third world countries to make sure that we have not been duped? I'm starting to think so.

I think before we bring democracy to another part of the world, we should me 100% certain we can do it right in our OWN country first!!!!  :hihi:

Total joke.

I don't know, I'm a Democrat & all but I think it's kindof stupid to put = James H. "Jim" Webb. on a ballot for US Senator?!

I mean, I could understand if it's his natural name that is long (Alexvorastovski or something), but why bother putting James AND Jim. It also sounds kindof stupid (William J. "Bill" Clinton) I mean come on, I would think they would research which name is perceived as better with potential voters, and go with that one (James or Jim). Someone here posted an article how some voters like "Hillary Rodham Clinton" vs. "Hilary Clinton" I would think alot of politicians do similar market research studies. Especially those running for Senator, this sounds like something from someone running for mayor of Bumblefuck.

You mean to tell me that threatening somebody with jail if they vote, is not democratic?

Thats irrelevant, the point is the machines can't process long names!!!  What if his name was Alexander Vlad Raskelnokov.  I don't think that'd fit.  Webb is just one example.  Whether or not its dumb for him to have James and Jim is besides the point (but I kinda agree with you).  I believe hes not the only candidate this will effect.  Didn't it also say it cuts off their party as well on the summary page? thats just ridiculous.

That's kind of misleading.  He said that if you are not a citizen and vote then you can go to jail.  Sure it was wrong, but he is right in that it is a crime to vote if you are not a citizen.  I think he was trying to prevent Loretta Sanchez from winning another election on the backs of illegal immigrants.

If you guys are so in favor of honest elections, why aren't you screaming about the Democrats' position against voter identification?  None of you guys answered my question regarding this in the other thread.

Boo hoo hoo, you don?t like my sarcasm? Wanna pick apart little words, so you can avoid the real subject? The real subject is that a dirt bag republican used bully tactics and threats to try and suppress democratic voter turnout.

our whole election system is a complete scam, its totally WRONG!! we need a complete overhaul!!!

At least you admit illegal immigrants are the base of the democrats.  I said the tactics were wrong and he should not have written the letter.  However, when the veil is lifted, all he did is tell people who can legally vote, that it is illegal for them to vote and that they can get in trouble for doing so.  Anyone legal citizen that would be intimidated by this to the extent that they wouldn't vote probably shouldn't be voting anyway.  Your characterization that he is attempting to suppress legal voters is misleading. 

If you are so in favor of honest elections, how come you don't discuss any of the democrats that try to get these illegal voters to vote.  That is how Loretta Sanchez won in her seat.  When placed in that context, it is much more understandable that her opponent would send such a letter.

Actually, no I did not.

She did that and it was wrong.

From what I know that Spanish letter was misleading saying that anyone not born in the country could go to jail if they voted.

I think democrats should stop allowing illegal immigrants to vote the very second the republicans stop allowing dead people to vote :hihi:

dodge
?verb (used with object) 1. to elude or evade by a sudden shift of position or by strategy: to dodge a blow; to dodge a question. 
2. Also, hold back. Photography. (in printing) to shade (an area of a print) from exposure for a period, while exposing the remainder of the print in order to lighten or eliminate the area (sometimes fol. by out). Compare burn1 (def. 43). 
?verb (used without object) 3. to move aside or change position suddenly, as to avoid a blow or get behind something. 
4. to use evasive methods; prevaricate: When asked a direct question, he dodges. 
?noun 5. a quick, evasive movement, as a sudden jump away to avoid a blow or the like. 
6. an ingenious expedient or contrivance; shifty trick. 

If you insist...

About 20 million eligible voters don't have gov't ID (6-10% of eligible voters); these voters are disproportionately poor urban minorities.  It makes no sense to impose additional burdens on people who are already entitled to vote and don't have the time or money to waste on bureaucratic bullshit.  I might feel otherwise if a bunch of John Does were going around voting 20 times per election, but that is not remotely the case.  Numerous studies have shown that individual voter fraud is miniscule and very rarely affects election results.  So Republicans are trying come across as the proactive group in dealing with election problems, but most people aren't fooled by that crap.  Voter identification does nothing to address the voting issues that Republicans are associated with - organized voter intimidation and vote suppression campaigns. Their only goal in all this is to disenfranchise a demographic that never votes for them. 

Sorry.  The government will provide IDs for free and will personally deliver them to anyone that needs one.  There is a huge problem in California and otehr southwestern states with illegal immigrants voting in elections.  This is especially true considering the recent debate on illegal immigration.  Democrats will not support cracking down on illegal voting because the illegal immigrants vote for them.  There is no way to justify such a position if you are actually for accurate and fair elections.

Wrong, there are already numerous incidents of people getting rejected because they could not present what the government deemed to be "adequate" proof of citizenship.  Besides, I find it hilariously absurd that the proponents of this legislation are so high-minded about election fairness but don't find it necesary to speak out against blatant voter intimidation and suppression, which has an exponentially higher impact on election outcomes than the "huge problem" of illegals voting.

What, you mean like this???

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=2432899&nav=168XS1G8

Where is evidence of these numerous incidents.  They were probably denied because they weren't citizens.  It is not too difficult to prove citizenship.  Do you really want people voting that can't prove they are citizens?

I am against voter intimdation or suppression.  More importantly, just because there are other voter problems out there does not mean we shouldn't correct the ones that we can.  The indimidation or suppression that you speak of isn't as blatant and as easily fixable as voter identification.  It is a much more difficult thing to correct.  There are laws on the books against voter indimiation.  They simply need to be enforced.

Here's some...

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special29/articles/0718Prop200-voting16.html

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special12/articles/1126voterID26.html



Right, and don't forget these beauties...

http://www.solarbus.org/stealyourelection/voter-suppression-flyers.html

WOW, that last link sent chills down my spine, no joke.  Are those for real? 

Until the right wing fascist?s have their powers thrown out, the good ole USA will always be a capitalists paradise.

I wish they weren't. ?In all fairness, I don't believe there is any hard evidence that they originated from any GOP candidates or official party operatives. ?Possibly just rogue supporters, but the lack of any "official" reaction is disturbing. ?Even more disturbing is that instead of putting forth a plan to address this, they propose legislation that would have the effect of legally doing what the distributors of these flyers were illegally attempting to do.

That's not the point of this thread, Fidel, but in any case, capitalism in the "good ole USA" has been on quite a good run for the last 2+ centuries.  And the problem with these "right wing fascists" is not that they promote, it's that they hinder capitalism and entrepreneurship through their reverse-socialist policies of diverting all wealth to multi-national mega corporations at the expense of everyone else.

I think the last one was a joke.. Almost like a chain email sent around with "Fwd:Fwd:Re;Re:Fwd:Re:RE;Fwd" in the subject line. If anyone is stupid enough to think their turn to vote is on Wednesday, well, that's their own fault.

Those flyers were very real and they were actually distributed.  You can focus on the potential stupidity of the recipients; I prefer to comment on the pathetic excuses for human beings that wrote and doled them out in the first place.

But were they ever taken seriously?? It seems too ridiculous to me that anyone believed it. I could make 100 flyers saying "Election Day has been cancelled for Republicans this year" and place them in car windshields on Nov 6th, doesn't mean it will affect voter turnout.. and it also wouldn't represent the entire democratic party. The first few, yeah were very misleading, the last one seems like a prank.

I don't believe there is any hard evidence that they originated from any GOP candidates or official party operatives

how about any SOFT evidence? or ANY evidence at all???

any legitimate news sources confirming they were sent out at all?

regardless, you lose all credibility posting crap like that. there were chain e-mails going around during the last election. it's a joke.

and to try to link it to the GOP is sad and misleading. 

'ANY' evidence?  Ever watch Court TV, Perry Mason?  Motive is considered evidence.  What is sad is your oversensitivity to my post.  My point was not to "link it to the GOP" but to contrast the party's lack of action on voter suppression with their voter ID high horse.

And, no, those were not from chain emails, those were actual flyers distributed, and reported in legitimate news outlets at the time. 

i don't care what your point was. the FACT is that you DID link it to the GOP.  ::)

those fake letters exist on both sides. but i think it would be unfair to link them to any leader on the dem side without evidence.

and both sides are guilty of trying to cheat the system. there's lots of cleaning up to do. in 2004, the dems solicited prison votes improperly, and tried to limit the votes of our soldiers overseas.

I'll be careful to avoid any blasphemy next time and not besmirch the clean and glorious reputation of the GOP with the implication that they may have possibly cheated to win elections.  We all know they've never done anything in the past - or more recently - that did not hold to the highest standards of morality and decency.   :no:

Whoever the fuck is doing this, Dems, Repos, Nazis, whoever, they should be tarred, feathered and impaled.  If I only posted voter suppression flyers that implicated the GOP, it's because it was all I could find.  If you can uncover any evidence of Dem-related bogus letters, please feel free. 

Sadly the first one in there is from my hometown.

you just don't get it.

anyway, when people play this "my side is more ethical than your side" bullshit, i call them on it.

both sides are scum, and if you don't realize that, you're just blinded by your partisanship. 

many Dems and Republicans would do just about anything to win. 

If you're going to chop up and manipulate my posts, I figured I'd join the fun.  The 2nd half of that sentence you quoted was kind of relevant, but I'm not surprised you left it out.  I know it must be very convenient for you, but you've done it twice already and it comes across as desperate. 

So let's try this again.  I couldn't find any Dem-related voter suppression letters (and I really did try).  You say they exist on both sides... so, if you can find any, post them. 

I wanna make it clear that when using the term "right wing fascists", I was refering to the republican party.

i'll try to spell it out as simply as i can.

you keep blaming Republican leaders (i.e. the GOP) for those letters. but that is NOT TRUE.

Sorry, but there is degree of scum, just like there is a lesser of two evils.  Ask yourself honestly....who is infamous for running smear campaigns, dirty, below the belt ads.....don't even try to say thats how the Dems are.  This isn't even a who is better comment..its pretty much a fact that Repubs, esp the likes of Karl Rove are notorious for taking their attacks too far and/or using fear to scare the bejesus out of people to get votes:

Hillary Clinton being called "ugly"

The blatantly RACIST ads against Harold Ford

Limbaughs MJ Fox comments

Using 9-11 and Osama images in campaign ads

Calling Max Cleland weak on defense (guy gave three limps to his country)

Rove even used his scum bag tricks against John McCain in the GOP primary in 2000

I'm sure there are tons more, but I'm writing this fast....

Now I'm not saying the dems are angels, but if you genuinely believe its 50/50, you're full of it.  Like GeorgeSteele said too...show us some examples.

Show me where I blamed any Republican leaders? ?And quote an actual sentence of mine in full this time. ?And how do you know it's not true? ?Neither one of us knows that for sure - except I have already acknowledged that.

And funny, it was you who said, "those fake letters exist on both sides", but I'm still waiting for an example from the other side. ?You must have seen one of those letters because otherwise you wouldn't have said that. ?Right? ?:-\

you guys are right. sure, they are all politicians playing in the same dirty game. but your guys (i.e. the Democrats) are the "good" guys. and the Republicans are the "bad" guys.

in fact, that's true in life....

Conservatives tend to be more evil, and more likely to cheat.
Liberals are better people with higher moral fiber.

I also blame the teenage pages for egging Foley on with their "naughty emails."

Shame on them.

That is such bullshit.

Both parties have some awful people in them. Both parties also have people who actually want to do the best they can to serve & help those who elected them. Each party has a different stance on key issues. Thats the difference between the two. It just depends on which course of action you agree with more.  This good and evil stuff is shit.

THIS is such bullshit....I really have no faith in our election process:

http://tinyurl.com/wra92

They should scrap the entire process and go back to having a paper trail. Use exit polls to make sure everything is on the up and up.

And use ID's so we can make sure that people vote once and only legal citizens vote.  Right?

You've mentioned this a few times - I haven't heard about all this so I can't really comment on it too much - but like you in the Obama thread I am too lazy to look up information (heheh)  Got any (unbiased) links??

I am too lazy to find a link. ;)  Here is a link that briefly discusses it
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/20/politics/main2027857.shtml

I read it briefly...I like the idea of it to be honest.  I do not want non US citizens deciding who is in office - thats just ridiculous.  That is an American right to vote for American officials - nobody elses.

However, the democrat arguement is a strong one.  NOBODY should face the risk of being disenfranchised...lets face it, this won't effect me and you, but the poor, the uneducated and the elderly would all be effected.  But I think the reason you keep bringing this up is b/c illegals sometimes vote and that angers me and I would hope it even angers the politicians they are voting for.

Nice response.  Personally, I think the democrat argument is ridiculous and are merely tactics and excuses not support a position that will hurt the democratic vote.  The goverment will provide people with free IDs and will deliver them.  If a person can't prove that he/she is a citizen and obtain one of these cards, that person should probably not be voting.

With all the news going on about busted electronic voting machines, long lines etc...I figured I'd bump this thread.  Looks like the goons are out in full force in Virginia:

FBI looks into voter intimidation

The FBI is looking into possible voter intimidation in Virginia's hard-fought U.S. Senate contest between Republican incumbent George Allen and Democrat Jim Webb.

Just ahead of today's election, state officials alerted the U.S. Justice Department to several complaints of suspicious phone calls to voters about where they cast ballots and their preferences for the Senate.

Jean R. Jensen, secretary of the State Board of Elections, said yesterday that she was subsequently contacted by an agent in the FBI's Richmond office. The FBI is the investigative arm of the Justice Department.

Dee Rybiski, spokeswoman for the FBI here, declined comment.

Jensen said she called the Justice Department's civil rights office in Washington and the Virginia attorney general after receiving a complaint Sunday from a voter in Arlington County and one yesterday from the registrar in Accomack County.

Jensen said she later received a report from the Hampton registrar about a call to a voter there. That complaint came in response to an e-mail from Jensen to local registrars about possibly deceptive phone calls.

"Voters should not be intimidated or deceived by phone messages purporting to be from election officials," Jensen said in a written statement. "Any communication from federal, state or local election officials will always be in a written form clearly identifying the official source."

With published polls depicting the Allen-Webb race as a tossup, both sides are mobilizing lawyers and voting experts to watch for irregularities and prepare for a possible recount.

In a written statement issued by the Webb campaign, state Democratic Party counsel Jay B. Myerson suggested that Republicans are behind efforts to suppress votes for Webb.

"We've seen this tactic before, and it is about time the Republicans learned that it will not work," Myerson said.

Shawn M. Smith, executive director of the Virginia Republican Party, said the state GOP and Allen campaign are focusing on mobilizing votes for Allen.

As for voter intimidation or suppression, Smith said: "We are not aware of any such activities taking place and are skeptical of the claims being made. Nonetheless, we condemn such activities if they are being conducted by outside organizations."

J. Tucker Martin, spokesman for Attorney General Bob McDonnell, had no immediate comment.