Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Ok let me explain this one, and lets see how it goes.
Yesterday we were talking with a couple of friends, the reason why Europe civilization in the year of 1492 was highly advanced comparing to people in America?.
For example, Columbus arrive October 12 in Salvador, with rifles and a big ships, here in America the only thing natives had were spears and little boats to hunt, but why the European civilization had that "technology" advance and America didn't?.
So we star to debate lots of theories and stuff, my personal thought is that life of civilization begun there so people had to suffer much more and learn from their mistakes. And here in America we were only in diapers, at the end I guess no one will know.

  I was just going say the Atlantic Ocean but I guess we're looking for a deeper kind of discussion.

It boils down to warfare. Most technological advances happen as a result of the search for "better" weapons. In the Americas, warfare was between tribes or clans, not nation states.

It boils down to war and structure of government.

You'll find amazing feats of ancient engineering on all continents, but only in Europe (far east to a certain point) do you see the determination to develop new techniques and expand borders. Most developments are spawned by a state of war. Natural since it demands the whole society pulling together to survive.

Known civilization started in Mesopotamia with the Sumerians, Assyrians and Babylonians. Here you'll find the core of modern religion and monetary systems. You may notice that power always shifts westwards. First you have Mesopotamia (middle east), then comes Greece, then Rome, Germany/France, British and now USA. What that tells me is that there is a certain knowledge, or form of rule that will always prevail and when it shifts the old empire dies and the new is born.

In short I'd call it effective centralization of power and resources, making it possible to coordinate vast amounts of raw materials and knowledge to expand territory and create technological superiority.

You'll find these tendencies in the Americas, Africa and Asia too, but generally those places were always more esoteric and tribally orientated. Until the Europeans arrived with their weapons and lust for war. It's not really European either, but rather a structure or idea that started in the middle east and over the centuries spread to all corners of the world. At the moment this structure goes by the name Capitalism, and when China and India are properly incorporated you will have a form of world domination, and the group with the most monetary leverage will be the rulers.

That is one of the reasons I think that the USA has reached the apex of it's power, and is beginning to decline; brought on, of course, by the war.

The United States has in all seriousness started their decline, yes. The question is who will take over? China or the EU? Or perhaps World Government is closer to the present than we think. Time will tell, soon enough.

I am however inclined to say the EU since China will face serious problems if the U.S collapses. The European elite also got experience and resources on their side.

Probably the EU, however South America, and in particular, Brazil has a lot of untapped resources ... if it can maintain it's soveriegnty.

I think its going to be China.

Yea.

well they need to stop polluting so much.

plus the fact they are a communist state is kinda bad if they are going to be the leading country....you know what that means....

Chinese Democracy Starts Now??

China has great food, the number two with wonton Soup and fried rice is particularly delicious.

a war with china and the US is almost inevitable.  Right now I'd say we would win, but who knows in 10-15 years.   The iraq war is the turning point for which America will begin its decline as the worlds super power.

Many said the same thing about the Vietnam war.

China is the next super power.  I hope the US and China form an alliance and avoid war.  The respect that we've shown China so far may lead to that alliance.

I agree that it comes down to money and who has it.  Right now we are an economic super power, but China will over take us eventually.  Their resources are just vast (people and goods).

How would it be fought? Neither of those nations is going to send their troops to the other country, and I think nukes are out of the question. Not saying you're wrong but how do you envision it? Territorial expansion? Electronic? Economic?

it all boils down to 'socks and sandals' :yes:

i haven't really thought about it (not something I really want to think about you know! haha).  I could see China getting hostile with allied countries in an effort to get more resources in which case we'd be dragged into a war.  or they make a serious effort to get Taiwan back in which case we are legally obligated to send troops.

i think korea and vietnam were just wars that prolonged the inevitable, a real show down between the US and China.  I HOPE it doesn't happen, but it won't surprise me if something large happens in the next 10 years or so. 

a big dust cloud is going to get stirred up and when it settles the world is going to be a very different place  :-\

a big dust cloud is going to get stirred up and when it settles the world is going to be a very different place 


 Bow to the Rat King and his army of roaches.  They will serve combo platters at all hours not just at lunch, to all human survivors, only now no free soda.

Russia will be hugely involved in any future conflict, you can see from the military excerises that Russia & China carried out together that they are showing there power, and Russia are more then happy to forge an alliance with China. That alliance will be far bigger than anything America can come up with. Russia/China combined states are just to big to invade. America will have to try and become a friend of China but with Russia already filling that role I cant see that happening.

The war in Iraq will also have an effect on the sitution, the American people will become sick of war and this will hopefully force the policy makers to try peaceful methods of calming any future storm. In all America will not be the sole super power for much longer, its how they react to that, which will have huge bearing on the rest of the world.

Yeah, but why Europeans evolved faster than Americans, I know it has to be something about survival, but my thoughts are that maybe when Europe was being ruled by Romans, in America life hasn't begun yet or they have just begun, and thats the gap between Europe and America. IMO.

I think it all boils down to farming.

As long as a tribe/community/civilization is able to conveniently live off  nomad life of a hunter/gatherer they tend to stick with it. A small tribe that lives off hunting/garhering has a very convinient life as long as enviroment can stomach their hunting/gathering.

End up farming for one reason or another and  you soon end up wanting  a larger, more organized community. You got need of a  permanent settlement. So you form a village. Then you find yourself in need of a whole lot of professions; farmers in your village need their tools, farming means putting things in stock and putting things in stock means need of bureaucracy is there. Writing, math takes steps further. Pernament settlement helps architecture evolve.
The professionals dont like hanging with rednecks feeding them so a city is formed.
In order to keep all this together  you might want someone to run the show. So whole concept of established authority with necessary tools to enforce it is there.Including power struggles and inner warfare.

Combine all of the above with ever present need of weapons and armies  and you are guaraneed to have both in better quality than a tribe that sticks with hunting.

..And while the farmer guy is busy sweating his ass off on the field, getting his ass ripped off by guys living in a city nearby, or getting his  ass killed off in a war in the name of his master, the hunter guy just keeps shooting shit with his bow, having fun and going lallaalaalal. Until he sees masts of a ship fleet on horizon. Then thats him fucked.

It has nothing to do with warfare.  Think about it, people.  Two groups of people: athletes and nerds.  Now, places like America and Africa...BIG predators.  Bears, lions...you get the idea.  Those big predators can catch and eat the nerds, who aren't as fast as the athletes.  So no one really thought up gunpowder, large ships, etc.

At least, that's what I was taught. 

Could it be the apparel? Hmm.? Those wearing loin clothes are surely faster and more agile than someone running around in a robe or a sheet covering them.? Just think about it some Roman guy tripping over his robe and being stoned by a dude in a loin cloth.? The Native American Indian for instance were bad ass in their loin cloth compared to the well dressed and wigged new explorers until the explorers started using rifles to regain the advantage.? The Native American starting wearing long pants too and started opening casinos which caused many white men to lose their shirts, so its a contiuous cycle.? ?:drool:

But then again I could be wrong

Maybe it comes down to natural resources?? There is so many untapped resources in america due to it's size.? The equation may be unfair?? Just by stacking the EU vs. America is just odd.? Why intend to set up the Gap between all of Europe with 1 country whose origion came from European colonization.? The Europeans were in search of a trade route but found something better, more land and resources.?
? ? In mordern day America, the resourses are untapped due to politics, which leads America to be dependent on imported petroleum and in turn causes financial highs and lows.
? International trade is unbalanced especially with China and the stock markets are buying up the American dollar and hugh amounts of business causing a potential financial disaster.
? However, there are safegards to prevent a total failing of the American markets.? It has been studied and the belief is that if the dollar and the US Stocks and Bonds become too weak, that China or whoever will fall harder and it will be America that will regain finacial stability quicker.? There are mathmatical and financial stop gaps or brakes set in place for such occurances should they arise.
? This happened when Japan and Saudi Arabia were buying up the dollar and real estate in the late 80's early 90's.? ?Property values and the dollar weakened and the 2 countries lost tons of money.? The Japanese took the hit harder because it didn't have the resources to recover.? The Japanese rely hevily on America for their oil, steel and ores.? Where the Saudi's just got out faster and produced more oil to recoup their losses.
? ?There are so many things to look at but a real question should be why try and estabish a gap when the differences most times, lie in the political arena.? The 2 players are very reliant on one another so why try and put a wedge in it?? Regardless of what the media would leave you to believe Europe and America may fail w/o each other.? Let them to continue to operate as seperate unions with common goals even if there is a difference of opinion on how to reach the goals as long as it benefits everyone.? It's food for thought.