Here Today... Gone To Hell!

As a father of 2 young daughters, whose favorite song that I introduced them to is named 'Prostitute', I'm happy to serve as a role model on what not to do.

I am a "pending Mom" of a baby boy coming in August so any and all advice is appreciated! ;D

Pay SLC no mind.  Look what he let his dog do to his child, for god's sake!!LOL

Don't watch Fox News in my house and I won't release the hounds...

If that was the case then the punishment is justified in my book.

Any good parent should not allow their children to become Republicans!!

On A serious note

Sometimes, Don't u think in a way a lot of it is just a crap shoot?  Some kids come from the worst homes and families and become successful whereas some come from every opportunity and murder their parents.

I'm about a year away from being successful and getting into the "Family" starting mindset, but it scares me to death that no matter how great of a parent I am, my child somehow will still get on the wrong path.


so do u instill as much discipline and morals and just keep your fingers crossed they can pass the trial by fire?

Yes, well-

I am a big proponent of literacy.

I find it very embarrassing that children these days cannot spell and don't really seem to care. 

What is even worse to me is that kids like this can graduate because no one wants to put in the time or the effort to help them.

My own parents were by no means perfect but my Mom was all over my early education and I could read some by the time I was two years old.  I will make sure that I do this for my son as well since it's obvious to me that schools seem to be failing at this these days.

Big mistake I think. Coddle the child like that and you'll soon have a 28 yr old living in your basement posting on GnR message boards all day.  :o Even worse they could grow up to be a miserable 48 year old with about twenty online aliases who makes pseudo threats with pretend lawyers...but I digress.

I had gone real easy on my yute and told her I was willing to accept light chores and good grades as a form of rent. She slacked over and over on the chores so now I charge her the water bill. If she doesn't pay me that she can hit the road. I will not accommodate laziness or contribute to a sense of entitlement. Work hard or gtfo.

On A serious note

Sometimes, Don't u think in a way a lot of it is just a crap shoot? 

I did not want my children to have jobs away from home, because one I did not want work to get in the way of school, and two I wanted them to be kids while they had the chance to do so, as it is they grow up so fast. Chores around the house however, were the way they earned their spending money and it taught them the value of the mighty dollar.  As far as kicking them out, not me so much, we will support both here in our home with no financial expectations until they have fullfilled their educations.  As it is the same today, I could still go home to my parents if need be and the door will always be open to them.  So different parenting can be.

Hey man, if the kid doesn't want to go to college, put him to work. Let him live a year on that type of income in his OWN apartment. He'll be back in school before you know it. Nothing like a good old fashioned ass kicking to wake you the hell up.

Hey man, if the kid doesn't want to go to college, put him to work. Let him live a year on that type of income in his OWN apartment. He'll be back in school before you know it. Nothing like a good old fashioned ass kicking to wake you the hell up.

^sorry TAP.  You mean well and that's cool, but I do disagree.  I see an overwhelming correlation between shitty parenting and shitty kids.  Sorry.  I guess it could be considered a "crapshoot" if the game is completely rigged.

Genes affect behaviour, that's established scientific fact it's not my opinion. It's probabilistic not binary, and I certainly wouldn't argue that genetics are more important than parenting or even as important, but it is significant - identical twins separated at birth tend to have similar behaviours, interests etc whereas adopted kids brought up in the same environment by the same parents can exhibit very different behaviour and responses to the same parenting. I'm not presenting this as an excuse by any means, but recent Western culture (esp. social scientists/behavioural pyschologists) have placed almost a total responsibility on parenting for kid's behaviour which has had the effect of creating guilt in parents who genuinely are trying.

TAP, what I'm trying to say is things like compassion and violence are learned behaviors.  

Science disagrees, that doesn't make science right but it doesn't make you right either. Science probably has more available data though.

Dude, you of all folks should realize the limitations of scientific studies in the social "sciences."  It's impossible to eliminate other variables...also, words like violence and compassion are subjective terms.

Trust me, you know I'm science-based and a strict believer in reason.  Trust me, it isn't a crap-shoot.  Environment is key.  All the greatest vegetable seeds will flounder if the soil, sun, and water are of limited or poor quality.   ;)

Really you can't plan out a child's path and expect the child to follow it.  You live and learn and so do they.  The way you raise your child maybe perfect but if you had that prick gene in you as a kid, you child may have it as well.  I have three and their all different.  They're all good kids/adults but the little guy maybe a fighter like his old man and no he wasn't taught to act that way.  He has a short temper and cares less who it's with.  They are all respectful to the elder peeps but hey you don't know?

Absolutely. Plus how do you explain Michael and Rudolf Schenker?

TAP, I didn't mean to misrepresent you.  We are in agreement that it's not all nature or all nurture.  I tend to believe the scale is tilted toward environment.  You seem to place more importance on genetics than I do.  That's cool.

I said I think it's tilted toward environment too.

But I will stress my underlying point again: Modern Western culture (lead by social science and psychology) has tilted 100% towards environment/parenting - one effect being that 'good' parents are made to feel guilty if their kid screws up and that can be bad for both parents and child. All kids screw up, and it's not always your (the parent's) fault.

JMack, I don't remember seeing anybody advocating planning out a child's path and/or expecting them to follow it.
Parenting's all about creating an environment that allows the child to create their own path.

If I allow my kid to blow off contributing to the house, and then blow of paying a minuscule amount of rent, then what am I teaching her? I had zero financial expectations until she failed to live up to her end of the bargain. My original offer was to stay at home until she achieved her goals with school. Her "rent" was helping out around the house, and that was it. I must have given her half a dozen chances before I said "OK, you're paying the water bill, and are still required to do chores in order to stay here." We're talking about fifteen minutes of stuff a day here.

I understand what you are saying, but imo I am sending the wrong message if I allow a young adult to do whatever they want in my house and refuse to contribute. If she chooses the hard way, then she can join the millions of other kids who work, go to school, and pay rent. I have no problem with that.

I said I think it's tilted toward environment too.

But I will stress my underlying point again: Modern Western culture (lead by social science and psychology) has tilted 100% towards environment/parenting - one effect being that 'good' parents are made to feel guilty if their kid screws up and that can be bad for both parents and child. All kids screw up, and it's not always your (the parent's) fault.

not always...but usually.   ;D
and 100% is obviosuly way too high.  I feel bad for parents who "try" but just don't know how to parent in the best manner possible.  I feel worse for the kids.

Some people are lucky enough to be able to pick their child's school, but none of us get to pick the other kids in the school.

Home schoolin' brutha! 

I've been keeping my kids in check by telling them if they step out of line I'll let the monster out of the boiler room.  Only kidding, I tried that but it didn't work.  I just tease them until they cry.

I think spoiling a child is the worst thing you can do. Giving them a sense of entitlement is cause for disaster. I think it is important to teach kids how to deal with disappointment. Parents have that instinct to want their child to never feel any sadness or pain, but little league gives trophies to everybody now......... WHAT?  Learning how to lose and dealing with it is huge, going to the store and not getting a toy is huge, not getting to do whatever u want when u want is huge.

I've seen so many parents where the child runs the house and it is just sad and people think they are being great parents but in reality they are just stunting their growth and limiting their coping ability.

Wow, that's mighty arrogant if you are saying what I think you are saying.

What part of that is arrogant?  There are universally recognized shitty parenting techniques...you obviously know that.  How is my saying that arrogant?  Yeah, I'm an arrogant prick, but I don't see how that particular line proves the fact. :)

 You referred to your 'little ones' so I assume they aren't teenagers? Let's wait and see how that goes.  ;D .....personally my 5 year old daughter has been her own little person since birth, she's full of surprises (usually good, not alway :) ) and is certainly not 'moldable' clay. I wouldn't want her to be.

Are you implying I either think my children are, or desire them to be "moldable clay?"  Because I don't.  

A few more points, most of this is distilled from serious scientific study, not stuff I'm making up.

1. Parent's genes (partially) determine how they parent and how the the kids with their inherited genes (partially) respond - and by definition this comes under genetics and not environment.

Yeah, emphasize the "partially."  I hate to tell ya, but when push comes to shove, 9 times out of 10 when parents react with angry verbal outbursts, corporal punishment, or other various shitty parenting techniques, they do it because that's what they know, that's what they were taught.  "If it was good enough for me, it's good enough for my kid," bullshit.  

What do you do with the clay you are given?

9 times out of 10

Home schoolin' brutha!  I kid, I kid, but I do know someone that does that and he's an even more arrogant parent than Prez (sorry, man, I still like you though  ;D ).  He goes on and on about drugs, guns, and moral depravity in schools these days... I'm like, dude, your kid's 5.

He knew you were disappointed?  He's 2!

He knew he wasn't in the mall anymore with the happy music, maybe, haha.

All I am saying is that you are STILL in the very early stages of parenting.  You, like every other parent of a teen will be pulling your hair out when those years come.

A4P, since I can't possibly quote in response, I'l reply to the red bits.

1. It was arrogant, I wasn't the only person here who thought that. It wasn't about shitty parenting, it was about your trying being right and other's trying being wrong.

Arrogant as charged!  I make no bones about it.  I'm damn good!  My wife's humility balances us out.  :)  ...and yes, when I watch countless numbers of parents catering to children who yell at them just to pacify them, that's shitty parenting.  When I watch a parent snap and say, "I'm gonna smack yo' ass!"  That's shitty parenting.  When I see a physician at a local YMCA repeatedly smack her kid across the face because he was sticking his tongue out, that's shitty parenting.  That's not arrogance, it's fact.

2. You make your kids sound like a project.

The most important projects of my life!  I'm not a micro-manager, but I do my best to create the environment that's ideal for their development.

3. Of course I'll write partially because genetics is probabilistic, it isn't binary - you can't predict outcomes of genetics with certainty any more than you can predict outcomes of parenting with certainty.

The above-listed events I mentioned are all instances of shitty parenting.  That's certain.

Here's the thing, I'm pretty sure you are presenting an argument based on your personal observations and anecdotes. That don't mean shit, neither do mine neither do anyone else's here in drawing conclusions. You live in a tiny fraction of time and space. That's why I'm quoting the results of scientific studies and not my own personal observations.

It pays to be aware of one's surroundings.

And I don't think you get that some things you think are environment may be genetics - such as shouting at your kids, in fact if it's a cycle it's more likely to be genetics than environment in my opinion. Genetics certainly isn't expecting the opposite of environment, because genetics determines environment. Science doesn't believe violence is learned behaviour by the way.

I was a basketball official for many years, as well as a substitute teacher.  You're right, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.  I'd call a tech. on a kid for copping an attitude and sure as shit I'd have to throw the dad out of the gym.  Is it nature or nurture?  Good question.  I'm going to say that kid would be less shitty if the dad was a better parent.   
Let me give you a snippet from a song you may have heard..."Hatred isn't something you're born with, it gets taught."  Damn skippy it does.   :peace:

Actually I think your biggest problem with my argument is that it reduces the awesomeness of your parenting to something that may not be in your control.

...actually, a big problem I have with your argument is the crutch it provide shitty parents.  We aren't at the stage where we are altering genetics...we can alter environments, and we can make better choices as parents.

actually, a big problem I have with your argument is the crutch it provide shitty parents.

I'm not sure you've really read anything I posted if that's what you got out of it. It's science, it's not an excuse it just is.

I have read everything you've posted and if you read what I posted, you'd know I have said there is good science and there is bad science. 

It's bad science because you have studied the methodology and found it to be flawed, or it's bad science because it's counter to your world view? There's a reason why people believe creationism even though it's been thoroughly demolished by science, it can be found in the latter half of the previous sentence.

"I thought TAP and you agreed on things."  (that's what my wife just told me :))
Honestly TAP, guilty as charged.  I will have to examine that research.  For now though, I'm sticking to my guns. 
Do you agree that the examples of shitty parenting I posted earlier are examples of shitty parenting?

Plenty of rich kids by me are scumbags.

Yes, of course. I've said over and over again that both parenting and genes have an effect. And the genetics really comes into play with the response/reaction of the child - abused kids tend to be fucked up, nothing I've said would deny that. But some abused kids turn out fine and thrive, how does a parenting only theory explain that?

btw, I'm willing to bet that the children of teen mothers have genetics that are pretty similar if not superior to the genetics of babies that are borne to mothers of advanced maternal age...but something tells me you are going to find a higher % of shitty kids amongst the offspring of young teen mothers.  Babies having babies.  It's really quite sad.  In my eyes, it's an excellent example of environment (parenting or lack thereof), trumping genetics.  Now of course I'm not saying all kids of teen mothers turn out to be shitty kids and/or adults, I'm saying the odds are a lot higher unfortunately.  It's a testament to irresponsible parents raising irresponsible children who turn into irresponsible adults. 

irresponsible parents raising irresponsible children who turn into irresponsible adults. 

I think the reason I emphasize the parenting/environmental component so much is that it's the variable that can be controlled.

Definitely. I freely admit I'm a douche when I get into arguments/discussions but I don't think I've either questioned your parenting or this point in general. I really got into at first because I think parents who are doing the right things feel a lot of guilt if the kid ends up doing something 'wrong', and I'm not talking about extremes like becoming a violent criminal, but stuff like tantrums in little kids, or truanting or smoking pot or something like that.....even putting aside genetics you can't control the whole environment, and the likelihood that kids care more about their peers opinion than their parents'.

But yes, of course you should do the best you can with the things you can control.

Aggression: Again I think that is 'natural' and genetically based. Natural selection would have been likely to choose aggressive behaviour for  survival/competition/deterrence reasons. The introduction of aggression-damping social mechanisms such as government/police/criminal justice is the learned behaviour. In your context, physical punishment/aggression on kids has most likely been the norm throughout culture/history and it's probably been removed/reduced only recently by thinking/intellectual classes......which side of that is the 'learned' side?

I am a "pending Mom" of a baby boy coming in August so any and all advice is appreciated! ;D

my advice is to ignore all the advice you get (cause you're gonna get plenty).

Here's one for you: Would you hit your kids if studies definitively showed it worked - I'll let you self-define 'worked' in terms of what you would consider to be successful outcomes for your kids.

Hmm, I guess the answer is yes...but...and that's a big but...every study I've seen on corporal punsihment shows corporal punishment to be a very poor parenting tool.

It's kind of like saying, "If feeding your baby McDonalds every day was definitively proven to produce successful outcomes for your kids..."  we all know it doesn't.  The same holds for having to smack your kid.

If she follows your advice, she should ignore it and if she ignores it then she's following it....we're all going to implode in a space-time paradox.

With Bandita, of course she should follow her instincts Sandman...but it's incredibly important to read as much as possible before taking on the most important job she'll ever have.  My 1st bit of advice for Bandita...don't have a kid in August!  You'll be sweating your balls off in June/July and August before the time comes!   :hihi:

With Bandita, of course she should follow her instincts Sandman...but it's incredibly important to read as much as possible before taking on the most important job she'll ever have. 

i disagree. no good parent has learned much from a book.

Bologna!  Go out on the street and ask a random sample of parents about proper pre-natal nutrition, infant nutrition, the benefits of breast-feeding, etc. I could go on but I won't.  In the "What to Expect" series, an overwhelming majority of expectant mothers and mothers would benefit from the knowledge gained in that series.  

 maybe it won't hurt, but it's not "incredibly" important.

I disagree.

parenting is not a job. and it's not rocket science.

It's the most wonderful and important job we'll ever have...and you're right, it's much more complicated than rocket science. ;)

 it's not any kind of science for that matter. there's no magic formula.

agreed.

a mother's insticts are an extremely powerful tool, and no advice (or book) should ever interfere with that.

Nobody wants to interfere with a mother's instinct.  Unfortunately, bad/no resources can and will interfere with the mother's best interests.  Preparation is huge and goes a long way.  

There is nothing wrong with it if celebrations and things of the like are the focus of your life if you aren't a parent.  When I knew I was going to become one, my world changed.  My train of thought changed.  Everything I deemed important changed.

But Bandita, that's where my beef lay. (that's a hell of a line A4P :))  My beef is with those parents who don't have that change take place...I'm sure you've met folks like that. 

Not for nothing, but don't knock those living in villages and such, I would bet you they don't even have half the issues with child rearing that we do and it's all basically self inflicted.

If you read what I wrote, I was actually saying it would be easier to raise children when those who aren't parents were able to be around children of all ages to absorb the effective parenting techniques used.  In our society we tend to see other families operating during special occasions and social events.  I'm assuming in villages, a lot more is shared.  That's what I was getting at.

It's just that you make it sound like some calculated project which seems to rip the emotion and love right out of it.

Trust me, there couldn't be any more love involved!  There will be enough "fly by the seat of your pants" moments, trust me...there are for every parent.  That said, going in armed to the hilt with knowledge sure isn't a bad thing.

You just do it and you do the best you can.  I don't need Dr. Whooziewats to tell me what the best procedure is to raise my child, is all.  Do I want to know about formula and when to change to real food, etc? Yep.  But beyond that, I don't believe we need an expert at every turn to tell us what's right.

Ugh, formula.   :(  Dr. Whooziewat's gonna be disappointed.  Breast is best.  Don't make me break TAP out here to lay down the science!   :hihi:

BTW, maybe I missed my calling in politics? :hihi:
God Bless America!   :hihi:

Plenty of studies (yes, I do read) break the stereotype of that breast is best thing.  I can't do it anyway for medical reasons and of all things I can worry about this doesn't bother me at all.

Besides, Tap knows that I will just tell him he's giving me a headache anyway. ;)

Now, to TAP...it's tough to say whether somebody's "naturally" a non-violent or violent person.  Me, for example, if somebody tried to harm my children I'd look like John Fuckin' Rambo and would have no problem ending the sob's (and his or her loved ones) life/lives.  Yes, I'm anti-death penalty, but that's just my political stance.  I believe in tempering what would be considered "instinctual" at times to get the best long-term results.
 

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200904/case-against-breastfeeding


 :love:

Holy shit TAP!  I'd expect much better from you, honestly.  As I was reading that article I considered copying and pasting all the mistruths, half-truths, and flat-out false statements...but I figured it would fall on deaf ears.  The hilarious part of this was the minimilazation of studies that consistently either show a benefit or a small benefit...it's not as if there are studies showing it's less beneficial than formula.  Priceless. 

I had to include this gem:  "It is a serious time commitment that pretty much guarantees that you will not work in any meaningful way."  Fucking false.  Absolute bullshit. 

Are you boys really fighting over breast feeding? :hihi:

Hmm, I guess the answer is yes...but...and that's a big but...every study I've seen on corporal punsihment shows corporal punishment to be a very poor parenting tool.

It's kind of like saying, "If feeding your baby McDonalds every day was definitively proven to produce successful outcomes for your kids..."  we all know it doesn't.  The same holds for having to smack your kid.

With Bandita, of course she should follow her instincts Sandman...but it's incredibly important to read as much as possible before taking on the most important job she'll ever have.  My 1st bit of advice for Bandita...don't have a kid in August!  You'll be sweating your balls off in June/July and August before the time comes!   :hihi:

Are you boys really fighting over breast feeding? :hihi:

I think the studies are full of shit frankly and part of this new "revolution" per se-or weird birthing and parenting religion as Tap calls it.  I'd bet these are the same idiotic parents who have their kids on a waiting list for some super duper nursery school that claims to nurture geniuses and future Mensa members. ::)

If you want to think your kid is going to be a freakin' genius because he sucked on the boobie, more power to ya. 

I was formula fed and raised by two parents that were formula fed.  I HAVE to formula feed because of a health risk. 

It's funny how you do that, damning with faint praise or something. I'm not advocating the article, in fact I don't think I've given a single piece of parenting advice in the whole thread. Just something I'd seen recently. I will say there seems to be a whole secular religion built up around parenting, complete with stonings....

..and yes, if the baby's not latching, that can be a problem.  But, using the right techniques, this can be remedied. 

and you know because you breastfed someone? :rofl:

Is anyone on here dealing with a teenager right now?

Again, I didn't read the article.  I'm just going on what you've said here.  I still think it's each woman's choice, and from what I can see on here, everyone that has decided to go for formula has done so with good reason, and not just to save themselves some time!

Is anyone on here dealing with a teenager right now?

I've been breast feeding TAP for a couple of weeks now and he does seem to be happier.

Is anyone on here dealing with a teenager right now?

I doubt it makes a tangible diference if you breastfeed or use formula (my wife did both) so any reason or no reason is good enough to do one or the other.  But what I loved about the breastfeeding was (1) the extended period of big tits; (2) it's free (formula is fucking expensive); and (3) it tastes much better.  Yes, I tasted it, big fucking deal.  I was curious!

My issue with breastfeeding isn't that it's not proven to be better, because it obviously is better - but the cult/religion built up around it. You have

1. A propaganda machine suggesting breastfeeding is some folksy activity being oppressed by the big, bad formula companies.
2. Guilt and social stigma if you aren't in the religion.
3. Charlatans (lactation consultants, authors, etc etc) making large amounts of money preying on emotionally fragile women who are already experiencing the guilt and stigma.

Reminds me of Christianity.  ;D

Out of curiosity TAP, I checked out median salaries of lactation consultants.  Very nice, 68k/year.  Now, considering what their avg. workload is per day, every client they help will save upwards of $1000 in formula costs.  It seems like they're a net benefit.

One more thing, "guilt and stigma."  I don't know who I like less, those that use guilt and stigma to carry their message, or those that fall victim to that cheap ploy.

Wow Steele, you're a brave man!  I'm not as adventurous. 

...but the question remains...did you feel smarter after the ingestion?  Enhanced immunity??  Greater bonding with your wife???   :hihi: