Here Today... Gone To Hell!

1. Guns N' Roses - Chinese Democracy
This album took 10 years to record (1997?2007)

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/ug_news/top_20_hyped_albums_that_utterly_disappointed.html?no_takeover

Interesting to see that many people in the comments section are defending Chinese.

For many years, CD was the go-to ridicule album for everyone, but as time passes I guess the whole "it's not GNR"-shtick gets old and people start judging the album by its content.

To be perfectly honest though, Chinese does belong on that list. It must've been one of the most hyped album in the history of music and there's no denying that commercially, it failed to deliver.

I'm not sure about this on 2 fronts.

For one, how many people in those comments are already GNR fans.  GNR fans pretty much never miss one of these types of lists and then mobilize

Number two, the only one judging it on its content are established GNR fans.  The "it's not GNR" routine is still very real, and people who think that have likely never even heard it.  Go to any comments section of any GNR article (or even their own FB page) and its loaded with sentiment this isn't really GNR.

Oh, it absolutely belongs on this list for a number of reasons.

It is quite simple.

Chinese Democracy is viewed as a let down or overhyped because of the wait in between records.

A lot of people say it was 17 years in the making or something stupid. That is very incorrect. While the album took WAY TOO LONG to come out for sure, it was only in the making for maybe 9-10 years at the very most. Probably around 8 years actually. Which again is ridiculous but half as long as a lot of people act like.

I hear a lot of 15 years to make an album talk because TSI came out in 93. Just bad for the media.

Is it a good album? Of course! It's a great album. Sadly the album is attached to the no matter how you slice it 8 year process. And that is what kills the feel for it.

To me, I look outside that long process of it. For what it is, 14 songs, it is brilliant.

In truth, once Axl waited a certain amount of time, he was going to be looking at "all that time...for this?" type talk, almost regardless of how it sounded.

In other words, once he took 4 years, I'm not sure it mattered that it took 4 more.  4 years is already pretty ridiculous.  Once that is out there, its not going to change.

Unfortunately, this is really 2 different points that get merged into one gripe, which I think misses the point.

"Art can't be rushed, it takes as long as it takes" is 100% accurate.  Its up to the artist and its up to him or her when it comes out.  That's their call.

Problem is, you are living in a dream world if you think that if you scream that loud enough in defense of your personal favorite act, the rest of the population will then apologize profusely for ever criticizing the delay.  Get real, folks.  That's going to happen, and that's life in the big city. 

Its 2 different conversations.  And the rest of the world, who is under no obligation to put the sunniest side up spin on the matter, is not going to bend over backwards to make excuses and try and justify it.

If I've said it once, I've said it 100 times.  When you get your panties in a twist over criticism GNR takes...take the exact situation in question...and apply it to another band you don't care nearly as much about.  Once you take a step back aren't fueled by emotion, you can get a clearer picture why people are saying what they are saying.

At least CD is number one on something  :smoking:

Everyone has their own opinions. And some people like it for whatever reason.

For me it was a big let down. Not worthy of the long delay and not the kind of music and lyrics I wanna hear from GN?R

Lyrically it was a step back. Still love it tho

Really?  I think the lyric wok is pretty strong on a number of tracks.

Oooh, I see what you did there.

Wok, Chinese.  :hihi:

 ;)


/jarmo

It's ironic that it's described as a "hyped album that disappointed" because for me part of the problem is they (the band at the time) didn't hype it enough.  The marketing/promotion for the whole thing was mess.  No videos or singles to back it up.  I guess at the time people were still surprised it was actually released as you always got the feeling that it was just going to get put back again.

Add the above to several other issues - people not accepting it as a true Guns record because X, Y and Z weren't involved, being inactive that long does drain some of your fan base and makes newer (younger) fans less aware of you and you have a recipe for a troubled legacy.

Personally I love it but it does sort of stand alone for me. It is a Guns record and it's got some of the classic Guns hallmarks in there but it's also a lot different sounding in many ways that at times make it feel like something that's not quite Guns. But that's just me. I still listen to it pretty regularly.

The "hype" they referred to was probably the one throughout the years leading up to the release. But yes, after the release they could've done a much better job marketing.

Yeah I know pretty much any list like this seems to include "Chinese Democracy" on it.  I won't even get into the fact that for various reasons so many people hated the record before it came out.  I will address this "commercial failure" thing.  First, debuting at number 3 on the charts is hardly a failure.  That aside, nobody talks about all the streams it got on myspace before it came out.  In 2016 there is a system in place where this gets factored into album sales, back in 2008 GN'R got absolutely nothing for it.  Also a person is more inclined to give a record a chance after they spent money on it to check it out.  They will probably discover they like a song they originally didn't care for after the first listen.  With the myspace stream, (which i thought was a bad idea at the time) people just skimmed over it and never really gave it a chance.


Guns N' Roses' 'Chinese Democracy' breaks MySpace record

Album playback received 25 listens a second
 21ST NOVEMBER 2008

Guns N' Roses' new album 'Chinese Democracy' has broken all records after being streamed on MySpace.

The album received around 25 listens a second up until today (November 21) after being streamed in full on the site yesterday (November 20).

Up until 4pm (GMT) today the title track had been played over 826,000 times, with the total amount of plays all the album tracks have received adding up to over 3 million.

The figures mean an average of 25 people per second were listening to one of the songs on the album at MySpace.com/gunsnroses.

The data means that the streaming of the album, dubbed a "listening party", has attracted the largest amount of listeners for an artist album stream launch on the site to date.

Head to MySpace.com/gunsnroses to hear 'Chinese Democracy' in full, and get the new issue of NME, out now, for a two-page review of the album.

Meanwhile, head to the NME Office Blog now to have your say on 'Chinese Democracy'.

You can also view a special photo gallery devoted to the album's 17-year history.

Speaking strictly in a commercial sense, opening at #3 is good.

It dropped of rather quickly after that though. More could've been done to keep the momentum going, to maybe even climbing to #1. Myspace was a bad idea yes.

And a worst idea was Dr Peper. I remember back then there was a lot more talk about that fiasco than about the album itself

It still 1 mil. copies in the U.S., which is good considering "good" music doesn't really sell well anymore.

What is popular is not good and what is good isn't really popular.

I thought CD would sell more in the US. I was thinking 2-3 mil, but 1 mil is still really good considering the plura of suckage music.

Is this album dropped in 2000 or 2002 it would be getting more and more praise.

The album made zero impact.  That's the beginning and the end of it for me, when it comes to its legacy.

How over the top can you be with praise for something that no one could tell you a damn thing about?

Its biggest impact was having its title be a handy dandy example for any project (music or otherwise) that sits in development hell forever thanks to a tortured genius at the helm.

I'm a pretty big nu gn'r dislike person so save all of your BS dude.

I'm very much pro 85-96 gnr. if you read any of my posts that is clear. I do respect nu gnr too though

for as long as he strung it out, and for as little communication that was done over the process 1 million copies in the usa isn't too bad.

if this reunion hits and does well and new music is made it will help CD.

otherwise if its a one and done tour it might just kinda fade away.

who knows

Yeah, I don't buy that.

"Man, it was great seeing Slash and Duff tearing it up with Axl again.  Totally awesome.  Now I guess its off to track down that album I never bought 8 years ago, which does not contain Slash or Duff, and composed in an environment when Axl hated them both.  I can't think of a better way to build on this awesome reunion feelgoodery."

What sense does that make?

Makes even less sense when you talk about them making new music.  You would wait for that, no?  Not check out what Robin Finck was up to circa 2001.

You make no sense dude.

If this reunion tour does well, and they put out a new album... people that didn't care before will start caring.

They'll sale more CD albums because of this. It will be referenced in articles and mentioned. It will help the sales somewhat, and let that album be known. At this point right now it is kinda brushed away and somewhat forgotten to the masses that aren't Guns N' Roses fans.

I make no sense because I don't think people excited about Slash and Duff being back in the fold will lead to them tracking down and showing love for an album neither man are on?

If you say so.

By this logic, once Bruce Dickinson rejoined Iron Maiden, the Blaze Bayley efforts were more accepted into the fold.  Did that happen?

You make no sense because you assume everyone who will notice GN'R in the future, are only doing so because they know Duff and Slash by name.

The point he was making is that there'll be more attention on GN'R. Period.
Doesn't necessarily, or automatically, mean there's more attention to that album and this album, but definitely that other one.

Because do you honestly think the casual fans will go on Spotify or Apple Music and look up who plays on what Guns N' Roses song?



/jarmo

More than happy to respond to this.  But not before an assurance I can speak freely.

Do I have it?

Gee, I wonder what kind of response we're in for if you're that sensitive about assurances.

No, I don't hand out assurances.
Don't be ridiculous. I have no idea what kind of possible drivel you're gonna post.


It was a simple question: Do you think every single person on planet Earth who will come in contact with GN'R will pay enough attention to who plays on what album/track to make choices on what to listen to based on that? Yes/No?



/jarmo

Really not going to go through this same tired charade where you get mad I don't answer you...only to do so, then have you mad because you don't like the tone of my answer, or whatever the latest bee in your bonnet is that particular day.

Seems we are at an impasse. 

Just assume you're right and I'm wrong.  Save time.

Hahahaha.

It's a yes/no question. :D
Yes, I'm aware. You're not gonna have a discussion. Same thing, every time. I get it.

Let me spell it out for you. If you answer yes, I would say you're naive.
If you answer no, I would say that seems plausible. Not everyone is as invested in the band as we are.

Edited to add: I think the real problem is your contant need to put down the stuff that happened between Slash quitting and him rejoining.



/jarmo

You know this is the internet right? It's not like a court of law.  Just say it instead of dragging it out like a drama queen.

lol....

I love that line, and its delivery.  Might be my favorite line in a movie full of them.

Another great movie line that seems to sum up the situation every time someone asks you for a response:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQFxmAdyKcg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQFxmAdyKcg)

A classic.

The Dr Pepper thing was NOT anything initiated by the GNR camp. 

Early in the year the Dr Pepper people, in an attempted to jump on the "CD is never going to be released" bandwagon, issued a "joke promotion" saying that if Axl released the album by the end of 2008, Dr Pepper would give everyone in the USA FREE Dr Pepper.  Axl, knowing that CD would be released, called them out on it.  Dr Pepper attempted to renege on their promotion but again was called out on it by the GNR camp and Dr Pepper did agree to issue coupons for a limited time for a 20 oz bottle of FREE Dr Pepper.

I still have my coupon!!!  ;D
 

Bingo Jarmo!

I'm sometimes difficult myself, but DX... man you take the cake.

Seriously though. If Slash/Duff/Axl release new music, whether it is a couple songs or a full album... and especially a full album, then obviously people will be more aware of the band's previous works.

RIght now there's probably younger people born in 98-2002 or something and don't know much about Guns N' Roses other than the name sounds cool, and now they might be hearing about this "reunion" and research them out etc...

If there's a full on new music and a new album people in general will be very interested in this "Chinese Democracy" album. It will intrigue new people. I'm telling you.

If they do like 10-20 shows, and then just fade away for 2-3 more years and that's it then it wouldn't make that much a difference. Imagine if late this year a new album is in the works or comes out? Articles would be saying "the first Guns N' Roses album since 2008's "Chinese Democracy" etc etc..."

Guess what new fan is going to buy that album? You bet DX : ok:

Agree. Specially considering the random nature of the playlists. People without a Spotify premium subscription can only listen to songs in random, and if they chose a GNR playlist it will play CD songs along with the older ones. Of course we all know who plays on what, but I bet the casual listener wouldnt tell the difference between the eras on This I Love/Street of Dreams and Breakdown/So Fine.

And you think that helps the case you are making?

Let's even take your perfect candidate example, this mythical person born between 1998 and 2002.  What, exactly, is that "research" going to show them?

OK, so it looks like these guys broke onto the scene in the late 80s.  They were probably the biggest rock band of their era.  That's what I had heard.  Then, let's see...looks like they drop off the face of the Earth in the mid-90s.  Then Axl comes back in 2001 with a bunch of new faces.  Then, says here, they finally release an album 7 years later done by a cast of thousands, alright. 

But...wait, who are these people?  Just going by my "research" of everything written about this time period....wow, it was not well received, huh?  And it looks like all the stuff written about this reunion talks in terms of this being a more legit operation that can be called Guns N' Roses.

Well, seems to me I need to track down this 'Chinese Democracy' thing if that's the last one.  But looking at these song titles, have I ever heard one of these songs on the radio?  Not ringing a bell, to be honest.  What's the album with 'Welcome To The Jungle' on it?  Oh...wait, its the same one that has 'Sweet Child O' Mine' AND 'Paradise City'??  I should start there, I suppose.

Your perfect hypothetical candidate is not going to read all that and not go right for AFD or the UYI albums?  Under your parameters, they are supposedly taking all this in for the first time, and its all new to them, correct?

Would a younger guy getting into Iron Maiden do similar "research" and make it a priority to track down the Paul Di'Anno and Blaze Bayley stuff?  I tend to think they are going to go pretty much for the first 5 albums with Bruce Dickinson, based on all info available to them.  If they are so knocked out by what they hear, they may then track down that other stuff.  But its not a priority.

Nobody's denying that Greatest Hits, Appetite, Lies and the Illusions will get discovered by new fans.

You're the only one saying that some of these same people will make the active choice NOT to listen to certain tracks because they will know what happened to the band.
Hell, chances are some of them won't notice some tracks they're enjoying has a different drummer on them!




/jarmo

I think the disconnect is whether you consider it of paramount important that both eras be seen as peers and need all album to be seen as equals.

I, myself, have never really been swayed by that pitch of what I would label phony relativism.  Nor seen the need for it to be accepted by all.

Not begrudging anyone their opinion on both.  But do question this constant need to swim upstream in terms of getting the general public to accept the contortions you have done in your own head to make it all work out for you.

Huh?

This isn't really about what album you prefer or your constant need to put down that particular era of the band.


Most others here are just saying that maybe everyone else doesn't share your need to pigeonhole everything. "Oh, no. I can't listen to this track that just came up on Youtube(Spotify/Apple Music/the radio because I did my research and I don't approve what happened to the band".

I get it. It appears like you carried that chip on your shoulder for two decades. You hung in there, you didn't really like it. You pretended and now you feel like you can be yourself again. Now you seem to think it's more than ok for you to go on and on about how much the last two decades sucked to be you. Well guess what, it isn't.  : ok:



/jarmo

I think you are making this a bigger deal than it has to be, frankly.  But you tend to be an emotional sort, so I can't quite claim unfair surprise.

Moving on.

That is some funny shit. You still think you have some kind of emotional effect on me. :D

Moving on, that's what you do when you got nothing.  : ok:



/jarmo

I just think we are talking about a long shot.  No more, no less.

At least, that's the conversation I was having with Thorned Rose.  They gave their take, I gave mine.  It's all pretty clinical.

With you, I can't tell if its just having the opinion or daring to verbalize it that frosts you more.  But I think its a hard sell you don't have a emotional stake in this debate.

There's telling a guy he is wrong, and telling a guy he is wrong and he better shut up about it, and better shut up about it right god damn now.  And that's without even getting into the armchair psychoanalysis.  These are not steps taken by a guy taking it light.

Way it is.  Perception is almost always reality.

I was asking you for an easy yes/no answer, but you failed to give one. Instead you post a whole bunch of nothing.

Thorned Rose and Voodoochild understood my point.
You, not so much. Maybe you don't want to understand it, not sure.

Business as usual with you.



/jarmo

We disagree, brah.  Is what it is.

You still insist all of our conversations end with me seeing the error of my ways and rallying to your side.  Occasionally, I do.  Mostly, I do not.

I stopped expecting anything from discussions involving you a long time ago. Let alone insisting on anything.

Don't worry.



/jarmo

Then put that into action.  By all means, please.

You ran over here like a puppy that heard the dinner bell when you saw I had answered Thorned Rose.  Only to then attempt to engage me in a conversation you allegedly find to be a waste of your time.

Doesn't add up.  Methinks the Jarmo doth protest too much. 

Your disregard for thinking is amusing.

I saw a post and I understood the point being made, so I responded. Obviously you had trouble understanding, along with anything that goes against your view of the world.

Your pity party about being singled out is old news. You just post a lot of nonsense that I don't agree with, or sometimes just can't relate to.....
Sorry if that bothers you.

Do you wanna know what doesn't add up? Look in the mirror.



/jarmo

It doesn't.

I just dispute the notion that you aren't getting something of value (as you see it) out of all these supposedly unproductive conversations we have.  You are clearly digging it on some level, or maybe several levels.

If I had to speculate :

- affirming your "true fan" cred
- show of strength for the rest of the gang here
- just like the banter

I would make a prediction as to which of the three I think is in the lead.  But we all know what happens to my prediction posts.  Don't we?

Why do you have it out so bad with Jarmo man?

I'm not the most popular guy here... we all know that, but I enjoy the board and the site. You need to show more respect for Jarmo.

I mean its all well and good arguing and debating or whatever it might be. Some things are opinion and some things are just stupid. Coming from me... if I don't understand you sometimes then that is bad.

I mean you clearly have some sort of "one up" issue with Jarmo. He runs this site. He owns this site.

Show some respect and stop bickering with him without any real substance.

I don't need to respond to your posts to gain/lose any cred. I've had this site for almost 20 years. I think that should give you an idea of "cred".



Unlike you, I don't really care what the average person here, or elsewhere, think of me. I'm not here to maintain some kind of online image or anything. Are you?




It's a discussion forum. You're one of the few people who has a problem with me responding to your posts.
And this from the self proclaimed discussion fanatic and mind reader!
The same guy who choose to ignore posts when it suits his needs... The same guy who knows how I feel, yet he's the one who gets annoyed.

Riiiight....  :)




/jarmo

Back on topic...

If you think that this reunion of the classic parts makes a new album and that doesn't help CD in popularity or bring in new fans you're crazy dude.

The last 10 years or so music isn't rock n roll. People still like it, but when you've got all these bands like FIve Finger Death Punch (lame) and stuff like that...and with their being just 1 new Gn'R album in the last 20+ years... young fans most likely don't know that CD even came out probably.

I'm just saying man.. any real sustained pressure by this reunion will really help Chinese Democracy's legacy and importance. They'll be playing these songs live too. You're just wanting to argue with someone Dx... most people don't dig and research about bands. Espeically newer/younger people in rock. It's all spoon fed on their iphones and stuff. No one buys magazines anymore. This reunion news will be great for everything Gn'R and it will bring in new fans to their most shrouded album of mystery and turmoil...

Chinese Democracy

give it a rest man

Imagine hearing Guns N' Roses on your radio, your Spotify app or whatever. So you search for more tracks since you liked it.

At what point do you start focusing on who plays on what track?




/jarmo

Right. That is what I'm saying in a way.

Someone new to the band hears about the reunion news... or mainly my point is focused on new music. They hear a new Gn'R single on the radio or online whatever. Or read an article about it. If that newer clueless fan likes the track... they will probably look up the band and see what is going on and they will see this crazy history. They will see the "last" album was in 2008 and they'll read the drama and the long wait behind it, and they will just be interested in it in general. It will bring a whole new fanbase to that album and other albums of peopel that missed out.

CD was hyped when it was out, then faded quickly in general. It hit high and fizzled over time like most albums do. This reunion will be just fantastic for CD, which is a great album that gets swept under the rug in the media. It fucking sucks.

I don't know if people will care about who plays on what track at first. For me. I know I care about those things. but who knows what others might do.

I think there will be people with prejudice before even having listening to the album. But like I said, some songs they won't even notice it comes from a different lineup. I can imagine people thinking I Don't Care About You is from the new band, for example. :P