Guns N Roses Achieve Test of Time?

[Naupis]

Nevermind became the face of an entire genre. I hate Nirvana but 50 years from now they will be remembered and revered....I am not sure the same will be said about Guns. Outside of Appetite I would argue they will go down as a band that never truly reached its potential before imploding.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

MUsical history backs my point of view to the nth degree, I'll leave it at that.

On topic, AFD era GNR era stands the test of time, all efforts post that do not IMO.? No purpose, no direction, no sense of urgency.? To their defense, the music they created post AFD reflected a fat band who's success had dimiished their purpose.

The UYIs are two of the most underrated albums of all time. Just look at the songs that never get mentioned like nov rain does.  Estranged, coma and locomotive are are amazing songs yet never get their due credit at how great they are.
Also civil war is over looked a lot also.

Breakdown is probably the most underrated gnr song ever and its better than anything off of nevermind.

[Falcon]

Nevermind became the face of an entire genre. I hate Nirvana but 50 years from now they will be remembered and revered....I am not sure the same will be said about Guns. Outside of Appetite I would argue they will go down as a band that never truly reached its potential before imploding.

Exactly.

I think most of ardent Axl backers were more than likely 15-18 at he time of the UYI, were drawn to the big videos, the self indulgent songs and larger than life persona of the front man. They grabbed on a little late in the game, not realizing what the band had become was in fact a parody of themselves, no longer cool in the circles that mattered.  Mostly male for the most part, these fans just didn't realize (and still don't to a degree) that what happened in the fall of 91 was a in direct rebellion against the excess and bloated monstrosity that GNR had become.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

Nevermind became the face of an entire genre. I hate Nirvana but 50 years from now they will be remembered and revered....I am not sure the same will be said about Guns. Outside of Appetite I would argue they will go down as a band that never truly reached its potential before imploding.

Exactly.

I think most of ardent Axl backers were more than likely 15-18 at he time of the UYI, were drawn to the big videos, the self indulgent songs and larger than life persona of the front man. They grabbed on a little late in the game, not realizing what the band had become was in fact a parody of themselves, no longer cool in the circles that mattered.? Mostly male for the most part, these fans just didn't realize (and still don't to a degree) that what happened in the fall of 91 was a in direct rebellion against the excess and bloated monstrosity that GNR had become.

I dont think so, I was drawn like others to axls deep meaningful lyrics, UYI is where gnr grew up and got away from the songs that were about getting drunk, high and laid.? That is fine if you are into those kind of songs but the UYI songs that axl wrote were much deeper, just like the ones on CD will be much deeper than the ones off the UYIs..


Chinese Democracy will be Axl Rose's legacy.? If its as great as dizzy, tommy and the few songs we have heard thus far, then Axl will be known as one of the best of all time, and gnr will be right up there with the beatles, stones and zepplin.

I think CD is going to be better than AFD and even if it is, there are certain people that wont admit it on this board.
But either way in 15years more people will be listening to AFD than nevermind.

Its been over over 15 years since AFD came out and over 10  since nevermind came out, and still more people are listening and buying AFD than nevermind.

So what makes you think 15 years from now that is going to change.
You hear gnr all over the place but not nirvana.
How many times at sporting events do you hear WTTJ playing? Atleast 5 times a game, maybe more?
How many nirvana songs do you hear playing? NONE

[Skeba]

How is this off topic? Its about how gnr will stand the test of time but nirvana and the pearl jams of the world wont?
Is it wrong to compare gnr to other bands in the same era as gnr?

The thing is that every thread turns at one point or another into a Nirvana/GN'R when talking about if GN'R has stood the test of time.

And I guess if the discussion would be civilized I wouldn't say shit, but since you for example had to bring in your insight about how "...Teen Spirit is the worst song ever" which, as I'm pretty sure you know, has nothing to do with the fact that their music has influenced a lot of bands that were starting out and prolly didn't know how to play all that well. A lot of GN'R tunes use 3-5 chords.. They just added a few bells and whistles in there and it sounds more fresh, where Nirvana sounds really raw.. I don't care if people compare GN'R to other bands, but if people start AGAIN writing how Cobain was an idiot and couldn't play guitar and wrote crappy songs in someones opinion. Well.. Then I'll say that we're getting waaay off topic!

[dave-gnfnr2k]

How is this off topic? Its about how gnr will stand the test of time but nirvana and the pearl jams of the world wont?
Is it wrong to compare gnr to other bands in the same era as gnr?

The thing is that every thread turns at one point or another into a Nirvana/GN'R when talking about if GN'R has stood the test of time.

And I guess if the discussion would be civilized I wouldn't say shit, but since you for example had to bring in your insight about how "...Teen Spirit is the worst song ever" which, as I'm pretty sure you know, has nothing to do with the fact that their music has influenced a lot of bands that were starting out and prolly didn't know how to play all that well. A lot of GN'R tunes use 3-5 chords.. They just added a few bells and whistles in there and it sounds more fresh, where Nirvana sounds really raw.. I don't care if people compare GN'R to other bands, but if people start AGAIN writing how Cobain was an idiot and couldn't play guitar and wrote crappy songs in someones opinion. Well.. Then I'll say that we're getting waaay off topic!

Ah since I think teen spirt is crap and cobain is overrated and that is why I dont think nirvana will stand the test of time that is wrong? You must be a nirvana fan eh? Like I said it does not matter they influenced a lot of bands, the bands they influenced are not very good, and those bands today are ruining music.? Its all on topic IMO, and saying something is not that great today, is? a legit reason why it wont stand the test of time. Is it not?  The reason gnr's music has lasted longer and will last longer than nirvanas is because gnr's music is better, its as simple as that.

[Skeba]

No Dave! You got it all messed up.

a) I am not a Nirvana fan. I don't like their music all that much, and I too, think that Smells Like Teen Spirit is overrated....

b) The fact that you, or I or some other individual thinks that the song/band/Cobain/whatever the fuck is not good, or is overrated, has really absolutely nothing to do with the opinion of the public...

c) The fact that _you_ think that the bands they influenced are not good _also_ doesn't really mean shit when we're talking about things on a bigger scale. I for example will always be listening to Extreme, while I'm 95% sure that in a few years no one will even know "More than words".

d)

The reason gnr's music has lasted longer and will last longer than nirvanas is because gnr's music is better, its as simple as that.

I really don't think that's a valid argument since either of them has really faded. People still listen to their music and as we've seen both bands continue to shine in the best rock song of all time countdowns that we have.

[ccorn69]

I think GNR will stand the test of time because they where so huge and cause their music was and is so good, there are many gnr fans that are young like myself who listen to gnr cause its good music.  as to GNR vs Nirvana, fuck that, GNR defined an age and so did nirvana no sense and in 50 years when people look back at late 80s early 90s they will see gnr as the dominant rock act then 93 on they will see nirvana and the nirvana inspired acts. and hopefully when they look back to 2004 and on they we will see the resurgance of gnr

[kupirock]

The only reason teenies love nirvana and mtv immortalized them is because cobain blew his head off.
In 15 more years AFD will still be a classic album ala LV IV but nevermind will just be in the same vein as we view hair metal (poison, motley crue etc) today.

Not to get the whole thing started again, but you're obviously smoking crack.?

"Nevermind" it looked and will continue to be looked at just like The Pistols "Never Mind The Bollocks".

Seminal.? Ground breaking.? The voice of a generation.? The album that changed an entire industry and the culture around it.

The above is unarguable.

AFD elevated a scene for sure, Nevermind blew that scene of the musical landscape.

Of coarse it is.
First off, like I have said before, Pearl Jam was much BIGGER and BETTER than nirvana during the whole Grunge era, but like I said nirvana gets all the credit because he blew his head off.? Nirvana is what ruined music for the past 10 plus years.? Nirvana is the most overrated band of all time, and teen spirit is one of the worst songs ever.? Nirvana was not even the biggest band of early 90s, Guns n Roses were, and pearl Jam was second.

And if nirvana so called blew that landscape, how come AFD is a better album, sold more albums, and like I said gnr were bigger than nirvana in nirvanas so called hayday.

Guns n roses killed off the hair bands with AFD and the UYIs, pearl jam and nirvana with grunge just put the final nail in the coffin, but guns n roses was still the biggets and best band when grunge was at its height in 91-93

Amen

[IndiannaRose]

Nevermind became the face of an entire genre. I hate Nirvana but 50 years from now they will be remembered and revered....I am not sure the same will be said about Guns. Outside of Appetite I would argue they will go down as a band that never truly reached its potential before imploding.

Exactly.

I think most of ardent Axl backers were more than likely 15-18 at he time of the UYI, were drawn to the big videos, the self indulgent songs and larger than life persona of the front man. They grabbed on a little late in the game, not realizing what the band had become was in fact a parody of themselves, no longer cool in the circles that mattered.? Mostly male for the most part, these fans just didn't realize (and still don't to a degree) that what happened in the fall of 91 was a in direct rebellion against the excess and bloated monstrosity that GNR had become.

What is with you and "the excess and bloated monstrosity that GNR had become" concept? Oh yeah the video for You Could Be Mine is bloated. I mean nothing can be more bloated than a live concert show video. The Don't Cry video was barely bloated in my opinion. Don't Cry is a very simple song and in the video half of the time the band is seen performing the song. It's people like you that exagerate this whole 'bloated' idea. I bet you went to a 1992 show, I can see it clearly. The Guns N' Roses of 1991 was very different from the Guns N' Roses of 1992. In 1991 the stage was smaller and there were only 6 players on stage. There were no effects, but just pure instantaneous Rock N' Roll. I advise you to listen to the July;Dallas 1991' show of the band. The band was as raw as it was during the Appetite For Destruction days. Axl Rose was angry and his voice was braking down, making it it 'extra' raspy. (it added an angry effect to his voice) Besides you talk about how bloated GN'R looked to the public in the Fall of 1991. What are you talkin' about? In August 31st, 1991 GN'R performed Live and Let Die via satellite at the MTV VMAs. That performance looked as angry or even angrier than any Appetite For Destruction era performance. Have you even seen it? 1991 was basically the Use Your Illusion version of Guns N' Roses but with an Appetite vibe and spirit. But, then in 1992 it all changed; the stage set-up was made bigger, back up singers were added, along with a horn section and synthezisers.

I deeply dislike what Guns N' Roses did in 1992, but do take in count, that the horn sections and back up singers were used for less than 1/5 of the entire performance, but something was still missing, or added without need. Then came 1993, the era of the Skin N' Bones Tour. Guns N' Roses went back to 1988 basically during this year. There were no sound effects, no outfit changes, and the core 6 members of GN'R had returned. They even added an acoustic set in the middle of the show were the entire band just played the songs in a couch (just like the Patience video), how can that be bloated? Again only 1 year out of the 3 year reign of the Use Your Illusion albums was this so called 'bloated', but 1992 was infact GN'R's most popular year worldwide so a massive audience saw them in that state.

Now Falcon you speak of the so called 'larger than life videos' but clearly dismiss your so called 'cool Rock N' Roll videos'. How about the You Could Be Mine video, Don't Cry (Alternative Lyrics) video, the Garden of Eden video, the Yesterdays video, the Live and Let Die video, and the Dead Horse video. All of these videos held the 'vintage' GN'R quality and vibe, but you clearly dismiss them to make a point.

No matter what you say Guns N' Roses still sold 32 million copies of the Use Your Illusion albums worldwide from September of 1991 through July of 1993. (less than 2 years) That is still over triple the amount of album copies Nirvana sold worldwide of In Utero, Bleach, and Nevermind. Since then the Illusion albums have sold an additional 8 million copies worldwide so where does your "timeless-not the Illusion era" argument go? GN'R have sold 20 million albums in the U.S alone since 1991. Trust me, as I have proven, both the 'Appetite' and 'Illusion' eras can be considered "timeless".

[Naupis]

Quality of music aside (as that is nothing more than subjectivity), Nirvana will always be remembered as the face of an entire movement and genre.....Guns will be remembered as nothing more than a really good band. It is kind of like comparing Apples to oranges in terms of their actual influence and impact on the industry. Appetite will continue to move a million copies a year, but music history will always look at Nirvana as the band that led the movement that killed of rock in the early 90's. Kurt's suicide does nothing but help the bands image as there is and always will be that what could have been with the. I'm not saying its fair but it is being awful naive to think that Socially Guns was more important and influencial than Nirvana. They were the face of that entire early 90's generation alternative movement. In the history of rock that is a big thing.

BTW.....Guns is, was, and always will be remembered for Appetite from now until eternity regardless of what Axl does at this point. He can release Mozart's 6th symphony and it will not surpass the Appetite Album as Jungle, SCOM and PC are classics and staples on every rock format in the country. That album was lightning in a bottle and you can't create that type of environment again no matter how long you're in the studio. There will be some good songs on the album I am sure, but in 10 years I doubt CD will still be getting the airplay or moving the copies Appetite does as we have heard the "10 minute, world hates, I am all alone string, orchestra filled symphony" that will most likely be this album. I like that stuff, but its not the kind of thing that will supplant the Jungle image that the world knows and loves GNR for.

[jarmo]

I think most of ardent Axl backers were more than likely 15-18 at he time of the UYI, were drawn to the big videos, the self indulgent songs and larger than life persona of the front man. They grabbed on a little late in the game, not realizing what the band had become was in fact a parody of themselves, no longer cool in the circles that mattered.? Mostly male for the most part, these fans just didn't realize (and still don't to a degree) that what happened in the fall of 91 was a in direct rebellion against the excess and bloated monstrosity that GNR had become.

I don't really agree. I was a fan of the band even before 1991 and it wasn't thanks to the videos, the image or anything. It was the music. Sure, being 16 in 1991, it was nice to see a band that wasn't like all the rest. But the music always came first.

And as IndiannaRose pointed out, GN'R in 1991 were still "cool". It was Metallica and GN'R. This was before the big videos, the horn section and the just before the band became a household name. 1992 was when GN'R became "uncool" and Nirvana became the band everybody should listen to.



/jarmo

[slashedguns]

The only reason teenies love nirvana and mtv immortalized them is because cobain blew his head off.
In 15 more years AFD will still be a classic album ala LV IV but nevermind will just be in the same vein as we view hair metal (poison, motley crue etc) today.

I knew it would happen one day dave,,,we finally agree on something!!!!!

[5thofwhiskey]

I think most of ardent Axl backers were more than likely 15-18 at he time of the UYI, were drawn to the big videos, the self indulgent songs and larger than life persona of the front man. They grabbed on a little late in the game, not realizing what the band had become was in fact a parody of themselves, no longer cool in the circles that mattered.? Mostly male for the most part, these fans just didn't realize (and still don't to a degree) that what happened in the fall of 91 was a in direct rebellion against the excess and bloated monstrosity that GNR had become.

I don't really agree. I was a fan of the band even before 1991 and it wasn't thanks to the videos, the image or anything. It was the music. Sure, being 16 in 1991, it was nice to see a band that wasn't like all the rest. But the music always came first.

And as IndiannaRose pointed out, GN'R in 1991 were still "cool". It was Metallica and GN'R. This was before the big videos, the horn section and the just before the band became a household name. 1992 was when GN'R became "uncool" and Nirvana became the band everybody should listen to.



/jarmo

Very correct.

Gn'R were huge and almost mythical during 1990-1991.

It wasn't really apparant that Nirvana had hit until the end of 1992, really after the blown Gn'R/Metallica concerts and the MTV VMA's. By the end of 92' grunge had moved in. Gn'R were still on the charts and able to sell-out huge arenas till the end in 93'. Guns were huge all over the world by 93'. I still feel they could of kep going with a everywhere but the USA tour for another couple of years / recorded in Paris or something and released in 96' a great album. But obviously the band was not up to it. Sad

AFD blows Nevermind away. Listen to them back to back. Nevermind sounds so used at this point in music. AFD is street / it is raw / .............Gn'R will stand the test of time ........so will Nirvana....but only because Kurt blew his head off........things would of been quite different if he had not.

What I promise you all is that something is happening in music.........it is here in the USA and in the UK. Kids are talking about 80's metal again. 80's metal is hip. 80's metal is catchy. By 2006 things are going to be very familiar for the 30 something crowd that grew up in the 80's diet.

Bands like the Crue and Gn'R better be gearing up to be the senior leaders of this. or they are going to miss their moment in time. Glam is going to make a huge return. Things cycle.

Something to watch: When "The Darkness" release their next album.

-5th

[madagas]

Falcon, you are way off on this one. You stand the test of time by continuing to sell records ala the Stones, Floyd, The Who and Zep. None of these bands were always cool but they were the biggest baddest bands of their generations-never declining in popularity through "trends". Gnr fits in their category. Just as The Pistols and Clash mocked the Goliaths of their day-Nirvana and "the alternative scene" mocked Gnr. Gnr still sells records-more than Nirvana and that is a fact. I would argue Nirvana's only masterpiece is Nevermind. In Utero (although my favorite Nirvana record) sold less than both Illusions and the Illusions were still being certified multi platinum in 1997-still just as popular as the grunge bands-maybe even more during grunge's prime! It is silly to say Gnr has not stood the test of time because they aleady have-all phases of Gnr. Nirvana's legacy will diminish with time-just like the Sex Pistols. In the 80's they were the greatest thing ever. In the year 2004 alot of people look at them as what they were-a one album wonder-kind of a novelty in a way. Influential yes-but with time their influence has diminshed. Nirvana will be the same way. Who today sounds like Nirvana? What good band today sounds like Nirvana? AFD was just as influential for a three year period as Nevermind. The grunge movement was much more than Nirvana but the politically correct Cobain loving media gave him all the credit. They were a great rock band-no doubt. But, I would not put their recorded legacy in any higher esteem than Gnr's. The ONLY reason the Illusion albums are not held in higher esteem is because they did not have the foresight to condense the album in to one record and leave the leftovers for a b-side compilation.? I consider the two bands equals. ps I liked the UYI albums because of Axl's lyrics and the epics-they really showed the diverse talent of the band veering from snarling punk rock to Aerosmith/Stones boogie to Zep epic classic rock numbers. The overall catelog is a very impressive mix of hard rock styles that few, if any, other bands could have pulled off.

[Booker Floyd]

Let's not forget that Greatest Hits sold a ton with barely any promotion

Come on...It was promoted well.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Even if GNR doesn`t release CD, they will stand the test of time as one of the great bands of the lat`80s-early `90`s. If CD does well, financially and artistically, it will elevate Axl to a higher status.

Nirvana cemented their legacy when Cobain killed himself. They were a good band who changed the music scene and brought the snobby alternative genre to the mainstream. Kurt became a martyr. 

[Genesis]

Maybe Axl should just shoot himself...

[Falcon]

Falcon, you are way off on this one. You stand the test of time by continuing to sell records ala the Stones, Floyd, The Who and Zep. None of these bands were always cool but they were the biggest baddest bands of their generations-never declining in popularity through "trends". Gnr fits in their category. Just as The Pistols and Clash mocked the Goliaths of their day-Nirvana and "the alternative scene" mocked Gnr. Gnr still sells records-more than Nirvana and that is a fact. I would argue Nirvana's only masterpiece is Nevermind. In Utero (although my favorite Nirvana record) sold less than both Illusions and the Illusions were still being certified multi platinum in 1997-still just as popular as the grunge bands-maybe even more during grunge's prime! It is silly to say Gnr has not stood the test of time because they aleady have-all phases of Gnr. Nirvana's legacy will diminish with time-just like the Sex Pistols. In the 80's they were the greatest thing ever. In the year 2004 alot of people look at them as what they were-a one album wonder-kind of a novelty in a way. Influential yes-but with time their influence has diminshed. Nirvana will be the same way. Who today sounds like Nirvana? What good band today sounds like Nirvana? AFD was just as influential for a three year period as Nevermind. The grunge movement was much more than Nirvana but the politically correct Cobain loving media gave him all the credit. They were a great rock band-no doubt. But, I would not put their recorded legacy in any higher esteem than Gnr's. The ONLY reason the Illusion albums are not held in higher esteem is because they did not have the foresight to condense the album in to one record and leave the leftovers for a b-side compilation.? I consider the two bands equals. ps I liked the UYI albums because of Axl's lyrics and the epics-they really showed the diverse talent of the band veering from snarling punk rock to Aerosmith/Stones boogie to Zep epic classic rock numbers. The overall catelog is a very impressive mix of hard rock styles that few, if any, other bands could have pulled off.

Again, sales do not equate to impact..  Again, popularity does not equate to influence.  Again, songs played at sporting events do not equate how bands are viewed in musical history.

By no means should NIrvana's exitence diminish GNR's legacy, that again is goofy talk.  That said, GNR's popularity should not overshadow the impact Nevermind had on society, the industry, radio, MTV et al.

They changed everything within the business of music and their influence on the industry still exists to this very day.  They took modern/alternative rock to the mainstream, again, a genre that has never even recognized GNR is any form as a viable entity. 

I never said GNR's music didn't stand the test of time, (AFD era), it absolutely does.  AFD elevated a scene that already existed,  Nevermind defined a genre, spoke for a generation and will always be thought of in that light.

[madagas]

Country music doesn't recognize Gnr either. You seem to place too much influence on modern rock/alternative rock-as if it is the only important musical genre. REM and U2 brought alternative to the radio and mainstream in the 80's. Nirvana did nothing that other bands had not already done. What exactly did Nirvana do to change the music industry as we know it today? You use these phrases with no substance to back them up. What quality band today is influenced by Nirvana or even remotely sounds like Nirvana? I don't see one-the music industry is simply awful now. I wish there was another Nirvana but nothing on the horizon is close and to me, I see no evidence that their influence has any impact on the industry as it stands today.