Guns N Roses Achieve Test of Time?

[Lady Livin]

Maybe Axl should just shoot himself...

he's not twenty-seven anymore.

[RichardNixon]

The UYIs are two of the most underrated albums of all time. Just look at the songs that never get mentioned like nov rain does.? Estranged, coma and locomotive are are amazing songs yet never get their due credit at how great they are.
Also civil war is over looked a lot also.

Breakdown is probably the most underrated gnr song ever and its better than anything off of nevermind.

Those songs don't get their due credit because of their length. Those songs aren't radio friendy. The 8-10 miniute epics are songs for the hard-core GnR fans.

[Falcon]

Country music doesn't recognize Gnr either. You seem to place too much influence on modern rock/alternative rock-as if it is the only important musical genre. REM and U2 brought alternative to the radio and mainstream in the 80's. Nirvana did nothing that other bands had not already done. What exactly did Nirvana do to change the music industry as we know it today? You use these phrases with no substance to back them up. What quality band today is influenced by Nirvana or even remotely sounds like Nirvana? I don't see one-the music industry is simply awful now. I wish there was another Nirvana but nothing on the horizon is close and to me, I see no evidence that their influence has any impact on the industry as it stands today.

Here's a little more substance for you..

As for basing too much emphasis on the modern rock genre, I don't think so.  The most powerful and influential station in the US (KROQ in LA) is of that ilk and doesn't even recognize GNR, never have.  That's a fact.
 
The emergence of grunge was the main factor in the division of radio classes in the early 90's.  The breakout of Teen Spirit drew battle lines between alternative rock and the stuff coming out of LA at the same time.  Radio stations in the US went through a dramatic change to define these lines and adopt to the new audience, the "modern rock station" was indeed born, breaking into the mainstream and taking the "college rock"  scene of the early to mid 80's (which featured the aforementioned U2 and REM) to even greater heights as well.  U2 and REM had definately already "arrived" I agree with you wholeheartedlly on that, but their arrival was nothing in comparison to the "big bang" of Nevermind. 

Given 1 choice, any record company A&R guy, music journalist or observer of music/pop culture will tell you
the most important/defining record in rock music of the last 25 years was "Nevermind".  Not "The Joshua Tree", not "AFD", not "Back in Black", not "Ten".



 

[RichardNixon]

Nevermind became the face of an entire genre. I hate Nirvana but 50 years from now they will be remembered and revered....I am not sure the same will be said about Guns. Outside of Appetite I would argue they will go down as a band that never truly reached its potential before imploding.

Exactly.

I think most of ardent Axl backers were more than likely 15-18 at he time of the UYI, were drawn to the big videos, the self indulgent songs and larger than life persona of the front man. They grabbed on a little late in the game, not realizing what the band had become was in fact a parody of themselves, no longer cool in the circles that mattered.? Mostly male for the most part, these fans just didn't realize (and still don't to a degree) that what happened in the fall of 91 was a in direct rebellion against the excess and bloated monstrosity that GNR had become.

As a teenager during that time, I am a little offended by what you write. As if I am too stupid to appreciate the greatness of Nirvana and am too dumb to realize that GN'R became a "parody" of themselves. Not to pick a fight with you, but you need to get off your high horse.

I'll admit that GN'R became a little bloated in '91-'93, but I think your assessment is a little harsh and unfair. Yes, the band did become bloated with all the videos and supermodels, private jets, etc., but there music was still great. The UYI are two of the best albums ever released, IMHO. And no matter how bloated GN'R became, nothing Nirvana ever wrote could touch "Estranged."


And what do you mean by saying GN'R were not cool in "Circles that matter"? Why should you care what NME or alterna-snobs think? Who gives a fuck what some dork with a Sub-Pop t-shirt thinks.

[madagas]

Falcon, a better response. If it was such a positive event, this defining moment in rock history when modern rock radio was born, then how do you explain the massive deterioration in rock and roll as an art form? How do you explain bands such as Dashboard Confessional and Good Charlotte as being this all important modern rock? I take the position that putting bands in classifications and segmenting rock and roll in to categories is what has placed the industry in such a bind. The radio stations, programmers, and record companies have destroyed artistic creativity by trying to market it in such limiting ways. It's bullshit. Now, Nirvana did not intend for this to happen but it is an impact that they created-a negative one at that. Ultimately, artists want to sell records and sell records for an extended period of time. Record companies pay radio stations to help sell records. Gnr sells records and always will. They will live through trends just as Zep did etc. They don't need modern rock radio or any DJ to help them do that. All they need is their music. Fans buy records and that is the ultimate goal of all these artists-modern rock artists as well! As much as critics, industry types, pseudo intellectuals like yourself (and myself for that matter-I can be a musical snob as well), radio DJ'S, radio programmers etc like to think that they determine what is good and cool, ultimately, the people determine what they want.

[jarmo]

What exactly is "Modern rock"? I don't pay attention to US radio.

What existed before Modern rock was invented? Was it called Alternative before? Is VR Modern Rock even thought they feature three ex-Gunners who are considered "uncool"?





/jarmo

[dave-gnfnr2k]

Country music doesn't recognize Gnr either. You seem to place too much influence on modern rock/alternative rock-as if it is the only important musical genre. REM and U2 brought alternative to the radio and mainstream in the 80's. Nirvana did nothing that other bands had not already done. What exactly did Nirvana do to change the music industry as we know it today? You use these phrases with no substance to back them up. What quality band today is influenced by Nirvana or even remotely sounds like Nirvana? I don't see one-the music industry is simply awful now. I wish there was another Nirvana but nothing on the horizon is close and to me, I see no evidence that their influence has any impact on the industry as it stands today.

Here's a little more substance for you..

As for basing too much emphasis on the modern rock genre, I don't think so.? The most powerful and influential station in the US (KROQ in LA) is of that ilk and doesn't even recognize GNR, never have.? That's a fact.
?
The emergence of grunge was the main factor in the division of radio classes in the early 90's.? The breakout of Teen Spirit drew battle lines between alternative rock and the stuff coming out of LA at the same time.? Radio stations in the US went through a dramatic change to define these lines and adopt to the new audience, the "modern rock station" was indeed born, breaking into the mainstream and taking the "college rock"? scene of the early to mid 80's (which featured the aforementioned U2 and REM) to even greater heights as well.? U2 and REM had definately already "arrived" I agree with you wholeheartedlly on that, but their arrival was nothing in comparison to the "big bang" of Nevermind.?

Given 1 choice, any record company A&R guy, music journalist or observer of music/pop culture will tell you
the most important/defining record in rock music of the last 25 years was "Nevermind".? Not "The Joshua Tree", not "AFD", not "Back in Black", not "Ten".



?

Oh so the radio should dictate what is good music and what is not? Kinda like mtv does? Well right now the bands the radio loves is garbage like hoobastank, jet and good charotte, so what does that tell you? IF  you notice more and more radio stations are going away from just modern rock and going back to the mix of classic rock and newer rock.  WBCN one of the biggest rock stations in mass just changed format a few months ago from just modern rock to classic/modern rock because it was getting its ass kicked in the ratings by waaf who did classic/newer rock combo.  Face it, people still want to hear the guns n roses, the zepplins and the ozzys of the world over the modern rock crap that is on the radio.

Like  I said, you can give nevermind all the credit you want but nevermind like I said  before ruined music for the past 15 years, they are the reason music is so  bad today, most of the bands that were influenced by nirvana are pretty much crap.

[madagas]

Thank god you don't have to listen to modern rock radio in the US! Yes, essentially alternative rock has morphed in to modern rock. The grunge bands were at first an extension of alternative rock. Then, they became their own being so to say. Now, it is modern rock and VR, amazingly enough, is considered modern rock. It is a complete joke.

[jarmo]

Would a "Modern Rock" rock station play anything from Tommy's album but not play a song like Chinese Democracy because it's by GN'R? 

I really don't like labeling music and I guess this whole thing proves it's stupid.

I could understand the whole Alternative thing because it was basically bands that didn't sell that many records. But then the Alternative bands started selling...



/jarmo

[Mutherfunker]

First: Fuck labelling bands into categories.

Second: Nevermind should never be considered an important/defining moment musically. The whole idea is a crock of shit. I like the album and I'm not anti-Nirvana, but that album being so recognised is purely down to a scene and a sound which had been developing before then, leading to the MTV's of this world jumping on that bandwagon when this album was released and turning it into something bigger than it was.

Musically, Nevermind was not a defining moment
In terms of popular culture, it was turned into one

@#$%Funker

[St.heathen]

GN'R will always be remembered because they wrote one of THE best debut albums of all time (personally for me it fights with Nevermind the Bollocks) which is a huge.  And it's not just about sales.

Appetite earnt it's respect because it had fantastic songs on there "Welcome to the Jungle" where, when have you heard a song just fucking ferment and blow up with such intensity?  Fantastic music from the spine-chilling opening Guitar riff - to the pounding  drums and bass. Fantastic lyrics and sung  like no one else in the world.  And that's just the first song!

Then you get to Use Illusion's.  Such a huge body of work, you could say too much for the average music fan.  But for fans of it, its GN'R  at their peak of their careers. People will go back to it and change their opinions each time.

Their touring was also legendary.

 Rock history loves strong charactors and GN'R was THE biggest band on the planet.  And it's kind of hard to put across to people who weren't there How big that is. It was GN'R, U2 and Metallica they were the Mamouths in music.    NOTHING to do with MTV or Radio 1, NME bollocks nor even Kerrang! It was bigger than all those put together.
And of course Rock history loves a tragedy and the huge gap that continues to grow, will always be seen as such a waste of a band that should have done more together.

Appetite has proven to be up there with what's considered THE very BEST of records EVER made!  And it will hold that place up there for a very long time. People will remember Slash and Axl Rose as house hold names of rock and be interested in their careers when ever they pop up. And many millions will remember all five of them.   

GN'R doesn't need to do anything else now - as a name or band.  But everybody fans and the industry want a  new GREAT Guns record.

 

[Falcon]

Falcon, a better response. If it was such a positive event, this defining moment in rock history when modern rock radio was born, then how do you explain the massive deterioration in rock and roll as an art form? How do you explain bands such as Dashboard Confessional and Good Charlotte as being this all important modern rock? I take the position that putting bands in classifications and segmenting rock and roll in to categories is what has placed the industry in such a bind. The radio stations, programmers, and record companies have destroyed artistic creativity by trying to market it in such limiting ways. It's bullshit. Now, Nirvana did not intend for this to happen but it is an impact that they created-a negative one at that. Ultimately, artists want to sell records and sell records for an extended period of time. Record companies pay radio stations to help sell records. Gnr sells records and always will. They will live through trends just as Zep did etc. They don't need modern rock radio or any DJ to help them do that. All they need is their music. Fans buy records and that is the ultimate goal of all these artists-modern rock artists as well! As much as critics, industry types, pseudo intellectuals like yourself (and myself for that matter-I can be a musical snob as well), radio DJ'S, radio programmers etc like to think that they determine what is good and cool, ultimately, the people determine what they want.

I really don't disagree with the above, good stuff and open minded ta' boot.

But..

I never distiguished the affect Nirvana had on the industry, good or bad.  The bottom line is there was an affect that resonates to this day.  The blind GNR fandom, not all mind you, are quick to dismiss Nirvana's impact when they have absolutely no basis for even an argument.  The fans I speak of usually do this in a manner to elevate GNR's status within the history/pantheon of influential rock.  GNR do have their place in that pantheon, no doubt about it.  They're just not looked at in the same light for whatever reasons, good or bad.  This segment of fans I speak of don't understand that (or refuse to) that GNR are much more closely associated with the liokes of Aerosmith, Motley Crue etc than they are with The Pistols, The Clash, Janes Addiction etc.,  that's just the way it is and forever will be.  Like I've said before, perception is reality.

And Jarmo, VR is considered modern for one reason and one alone, Scott Weiland, that's it.  Not sure about the Tommy question, his stuff will never make the airwaves stateside anyway so it's doubtful his inclusion in the brand name GNR will have any affect anyway.

As for the pseudo intellectual comment, I admit I'm a music elitist.  With that admiisson, I also have no problem acknowledging that I know my shit and strive to express it an objective manner.

[younggunner]

BTW.....Guns is, was, and always will be remembered for Appetite from now until eternity regardless of what Axl does at this point. He can release Mozart's 6th symphony and it will not surpass the Appetite Album as Jungle, SCOM and PC are classics and staples on every rock format in the country. That album was lightning in a bottle and you can't create that type of environment again no matter how long you're in the studio. There will be some good songs on the album I am sure, but in 10 years I doubt CD will still be getting the airplay or moving the copies Appetite does as we have heard the "10 minute, world hates, I am all alone string, orchestra filled symphony" that will most likely be this album. I like that stuff, but its not the kind of thing that will supplant the Jungle image that the world knows and loves GNR for.

In terms of Impact you are right...but in temrs of the actual music being played a decade form now...the jury is out...when cd is released ill let you know....

How do you explain bands such as Dashboard Confessional and Good Charlotte as being this all important modern rock? I take the position that putting bands in classifications and segmenting rock and roll in to categories is what has placed the industry in such a bind. The radio stations, programmers, and record companies have destroyed artistic creativity by trying to market it in such limiting ways. It's bullshit. Now, Nirvana did not intend for this to happen but it is an impact that they created-a negative one at that. Ultimately, artists want to sell records and sell records for an extended period of time. Record companies pay radio stations to help sell records. Gnr sells records and always will. They will live through trends just as Zep did etc. They don't need modern rock radio or any DJ to help them do that. All they need is their music. Fans buy records and that is the ultimate goal of all these artists-modern rock artists as well! As much as critics, industry types, pseudo intellectuals like yourself (and myself for that matter-I can be a musical snob as well), radio DJ'S, radio programmers etc like to think that they determine what is good and cool, ultimately, the people determine what they want.

Probably the best post Ive ever read on this board.

Would a "Modern Rock" rock station play anything from Tommy's album but not play a song like Chinese Democracy because it's by GN'R?

Modern rock stations dont play Tommys songs because hes not being promoted as such. As for GNr, thats the million dollar question. Will GNr get shut out becuase they are GNr or will they be given a chance on the "Prestigious" modern rock stations.
Tommy gets played on the smaller indie rock type stations....

I asked Krock Ny's program director if new gnr will be given initiaa airplay when they come ut with their singles. His answer was absolutely. SO if the material on CD is modern and the fans want to hear it, GNR will be right next to all of the great bands that play on these "prestigious"modern/alternative/we are better than you/your not cool radio stations....


I wasnt around when GNr were huge but I undertsand the whole phase. Yea they changed after AFD. But how could you not. GNR wrote about their life. Their life went from grimy to extravagent. They didnt get caught up in the whole lets stay with how we got here, even if its not what we are now, in this point in time.

Yea things got bloated, but not to the effect of what a lot of peopel make it out to be.
That thing is overated imo anyways. SO the hell what if Axl and GNR thought they were larger than life and needed jets, horns, sneakers,etc. Thats what being an American rock star is all about. Thats why Axl is so cool and appealing. Hes this larger than life guy yet hes real. hard to explain ....

[Mattman]

Ya know what's ironic?? Nirvana came onto the scene in 1991 at the vanguard of the "alternative" rock movement, which lambasted all the corporate rock of the 80s and attempted to restore rock to an earthier, more stripped-down, rawer form.? More artistically valid than the formulaic power ballads that were all over the radio at the time.? Funny thing is, after grunge died, we were left with a big hole that was filled in its wake by music that was more corporate than ever before - Mariah Carey, Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, all that shit.? Rock bands that came after had "alternative" characteristics but did it in the context of a corporate environment.? Good Charlotte is a good example.? These guys are basically ripping off Green Day, they have a look and lyrics that harken back to the "embittered outsider" approach made famous by the original alternative groups, they eschew flashy solos for simple punk riffs.? But they do it in a lazy, formulaic way that makes countless rock fans hate them with a vengeance.? Same goes for modern rock groups like Creed and Nickelback.? They follow Pearl Jam's template of classic rock type instrumentation and alternative spirit, but they do it in a more controlled, commerical way (Creed basically brought back the power ballad with "With Arms Wide Open").

Call it the Wasted Promise of Alternative.? Alternative wanted to make rock music by the people, for the people.? Instead, we are now in exactly the same situation as the late 80s - rock is extremely corporate.? The main differences are that 1) I personally prefer corporate groups like Poison and Warrant to corporate groups like Good Charlotte and Creed; and 2) there's no equivalent of Guns N' Roses - a band that retains many of the characteristics of its corporate rock siblings, but does it in a much more emotional, powerful, raw way.? After all, Guns N' Roses were basically a glam metal band, but they did it in a stripped down fashion that was radically different from Poison and their ilk, and they are now remembered fondly by modern audiences.

People say we need a new Nirvana, but I guess the truth is that we need either a new Guns N' Roses or a new Nirvana.? GN'R revitalized a rock music scene that was already there (Sunset Strip hair metal), Nirvana blew it completely out of the water.? Both bands changed rock and made a lot of great songs.? So either of those would be fine.

One final note about "Smells Like Teen Spirit".? Whether or not you like Nirvana, I think that that song can be the only candidate for Anthem of My Generation.? No other song comes close.? I know just as many kids who like Guns N' Roses as like Nirvana.? But when I go to a dance, they don't play Guns N' Roses.? They always play "Smells Like Teen Spirit", and even today, that's the song that brings the whole house down.? You can say what you will about it, but it's a great song that can compete with almost anything in the GN'R catalogue, and will likely stay around for a long time.

[Lady Livin]

i just wanted to include something.. i don't know what significance this might have, but four years after "smells like teen spirit" came out, another song became extremely popular and "groundbreaking", but this time in the christian community. it was for the title track off of dcTalk's jesus freak which was like a total quantum leap for them because they were basically a hip-hop/dance/gospel group. anyway, this particular song has almost the same exact formula as SLTS, or really.. any song in the nirvana catalogue. some even said it was like a song that would have existed if cobain was for jesus. the same exact drum intro/beats are introduced in it, and i just think that the SLTS had way more influence or like impact than just welcome in the alternative movement.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

Falcon as always you are missing the point. Like I stated before, nirvana was just the poster child for the so called grunge era by mtv, they were not the first, like i said mother love bone was first, and if u want to go way back neil young, and they were not the best since pearl jam was much better, but mtv decided to thank probally nirvana's worst song on nevermind and run with it.

But again like i said, nirvana so called killed off guns n roses, when they did not, since gnr was still the biggest band in the world when grunge was at its apex, that is why gnr will stand the test of time much more so than nirvana.
Nirvana is lumped into the same catagory as new kids on the block.  New kids started that whole boy band thing and made it huge, yet today we look at and see how they ruined music and paved the way for talentless bands like BSB, O town and all those bands.

[Lady Livin]

i wish you'd quit shoving your opinions into the subject, and instead provide facts.

[Falcon]

Nirvana is lumped into the same catagory as new kids on the block.?

It's official, you've reached an all time low for nonsensical analogies.

What, if little credible opinions you might have had in the past or may have in the future are now deemed forever goofy.

You're the exact person the likes of The Pistols and Nirvana made fun of.

Point proved.

[gnr157]

yeah, gn'r outselling nirvana's is sort of compelling considering how much this generation seems to favor the latter. i'd like to thank the latter for all the bands we have to put up with today, though.?

I think it's a testament to overblown media perception of Nirvana and Kurt Cobain.  There's a ton of people that gravitate towards Nirvana because they want to like something "different"... yet the reason they stumble onto nirvana is because the press still covers Nirvana like Nirvana completely revolutionlized the music scene.  Yet Nirvana pulled one hell of a scam...as a reaction to overblown corporate rock bands (and yes even the beloved gnr) nirvana just became the corporate package of the "we don't want to be famous groups" They were marketed, covered, and sold as a subculture- and today they are still being sold the same way in the media.  It wasn't so much the selling of revolutionary music...as it was the selling of the whole grunge subculture to people that were being offended by the excesses of over-the-top rock. 
The event of time has help demonstrate this.  While I lumped guns into corporate rock...they can only be classifed as such because of pure sales.  Guns N' Roses has to exist on a major label...because the demand requires it.  Yet much public perception of Guns is very negative...AFD (which still outsells Nevermind) and the Greatest hits are successes because GnR is capable of selling itself.  On the other hand over time Nirvana will have trouble selling and their sales will decline because the only thing selling Nirvana is the over blown legacy of the band and Cobain...a legacy that is based on selling a subculture or a trend as a "industry changing record".  In short, people would rather like Nirvana than actually listen to Nirvana.  And somewhat the opposite can be said of Guns....that people will and can be highly critical of Axl....it's more trendy to talk shit about Axl...however the critcism of the lifestyle doesn't take anything away from the music...and that becomes evident in the long term sales. 

[gnr157]

Musically, Nevermind was not a defining moment
In terms of popular culture, it was turned into one

I think that sums up Nirvana pretty well.