Death penalty, Abortion, Gun Control, War in Iraq-give your 2 cents

[pebbles]

Death Penalty- good in most cases.

Abortion- totally the womans choice, but dont think its the greatest either, sad situation

Gun control- dont really know, something needs to be done though that will actually work

War in Iraq- sucks, think its a total waste of human lives.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Death penalty:  lets offenders get off easy.  i say let them live very long lives...all alone, in a small, dark, cold cell, never to have contact with family or friends.  The worst food, with little water, no books, no tv, no sunlight...yes, this would be a much better option in my eyes, than death.

Abortion:  if abortion is ever outlawed, pro-life advocates should be required to adopt the hundreds of thousands of unwanted babies.  Also, when they outlaw in vitro fertilization, because let's face it, those millions of embryos that are yet to be implanted, are life in their eyes, they must be brought to term before they are killed by being ignored.  They don't last forever.  Boy oh boy, I see a pretty big up-tick in population coming!     Hey boys, get your hands on some fine evangelical christian ass now, because pretty soon they'll all be pregnant with triplets or quadruplets with adopted crack-addicted babies in their nurseries.   

Gun Control:  i support gun rights...but with gigantic penalties for those whose weapons are used in a crime...look up to my death penalty alternative for further explanation. 

War in Iraq:  That'll teach those pesky terrorists!  They thought we'd make Bin Laden the primary focus...we're out-smarting them by taking out a hated dictator and establishing a civil war in Iraq that gives the terrorists a good training camp to kill American soldiers. 
All in all, it's a brilliant move by George W.  If you are against the war, you're unpatriotic.  If you support the war, you're a great American.  If we, the US doesn't get attacked, it's because of the US taking on terrorism overseas...if we do get attacked, well, just think how bad it would have been had the weak Democrats had power!  It's a win-win position for "W."

Someone on this board posted a great quote, "When fascism comes to the US, it will be wearing a flag and carrying a cross."  So true, so true.   

[mainline]

Abortion:? if abortion is ever outlawed, pro-life advocates should be required to adopt the hundreds of thousands of unwanted babies.

?

You made this statement a few years ago.? At least you identified the the most common central issue when it comes to abortion - "unwanted."? The issue isn't the very, very small minority of abortions that are a result of rape, incest, or pregnancy complications.? What it boils down to, in the vast majority of cases, is people who simply don't want to be inconvenienced.? Their selfishness precludes them of taking responsibility for their actions....even if it costs a life.? And your comment above shows that you don't want them to take responsibility either.? You would have others do it for them.

Someone on this board posted a great quote, "When fascism comes to the US, it will be wearing a flag and carrying a cross."? So true, so true.? ?

Keep in mind that person is a "little left of Chomsky."? Best to take it with a big bucket of salt....

[acdcUSSR]

Gun control - give everyone military training and a gun, very low crime rates. look at switzerland. everyone has military training. you wouldn't even try to rob a house if you knew that the person living there had a 9mm on his nightstand, would you?

war in Iraq - against. it's all about the oil and how much $$ Bush wants.

[HamsterDemocracy]

Death penalty - I'm split on this. In some ways I think it's not right at all for a government to kill someone. But then again I think about people like Dahmer and the idea of them taking others' lives and getting to live out the rest of their's? I mean, yeah, they're in prison, but they're alive. So I always end up back where I started.

Abortion - I can't understand why people who oppose the death penalty are always in support of abortion. I don't care about using condoms and the morning after pills. That's fine. But when you actually wait until the developing stage where the fetus is growing in the woman's womb to kill it, that's what you are doing: KILLING. People say it's the woman's right because it's her body. Umm, it's a life inside of her. A fetus is alive. Then people get into "Well at one point does something become ALIVE and at what point is it NOT alive?" And to me that's stupid because as far as I'm concerned, once the egg begins the process of developing into a baby it is alive, and if you're going to say it's a woman's right to kill a baby then you might as well legalize suicide since a woman killing herself is just doing something to her body, too.

And I'm a fan of Bill Hicks, too, so it's strange for me to take the opposite stance, but that's how I feel.

Gun control - making guns illegal would not stop the people who WANT to buy guns. Much like drugs are illegal but there are people who easily get drugs anyway. It would make gun importing the new drug business and stuff would get out of hand. I don't see why people need to buy guns but it's a Constitutional right and I think making it illegal would cause a lot of problems for us. I think they need to be more CAREFUL about who they're giving guns out TO more so than they need to outlaw them altogether.

Iraq - mistake. We need to get out of there ASAP. We've become a joke to the rest of the world.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Abortion:? if abortion is ever outlawed, pro-life advocates should be required to adopt the hundreds of thousands of unwanted babies.

?

You made this statement a few years ago.? At least you identified the the most common central issue when it comes to abortion - "unwanted."? The issue isn't the very, very small minority of abortions that are a result of rape, incest, or pregnancy complications.? What it boils down to, in the vast majority of cases, is people who simply don't want to be inconvenienced.? Their selfishness precludes them of taking responsibility for their actions....even if it costs a life.? And your comment above shows that you don't want them to take responsibility either.? You would have others do it for them.

Someone on this board posted a great quote, "When fascism comes to the US, it will be wearing a flag and carrying a cross."? So true, so true.? ?

Keep in mind that person is a "little left of Chomsky."? Best to take it with a big bucket of salt....

I love even-keeled discussions and I thank you for your time. ?First-off, let's get one thing straight. ?A woman who decides to get an abortion has an unwanted fetus in her body. ?You are correct, the vast majority are neither the result of rape, incest, or pregnancy complications, they are the result of a man and a woman making a mistake in the heat of passion. ?Yes, I'd agree that for that encounter that couple behaved irresponsibly. ?So, we have 2 options, carry the fetus to term or abort it. ?Do you really want more children born to mothers who don't want that child? ?Do you honestly think there are enough families out there that want to adopt the approximately 2.4 or something million babies per year that are aborted?? ?There aren't. ?

Just think rationally for a second. ?In my eyes, I know I've said it before, but to me, the greatest crime in this world is bringing a child into the world that is not loved and wanted by its parents. ?A beautiful drug is now available that will cut the number of abortions in half to a little over a million per year. ?If taken within 24 hours, it prevents fertilization from even occurring! ?What a wonderful thing! ?

Now, I noticed you failed to mention the millions of "embryo souls" hanging in limbo as we speak. ?There little souls are crying every day of their frozen "egg"sistence. ?Every day growing more stale, and ultimately, and so sadly, having to be destroyed because they don't last forever. ?Hey, I've got an idea, instead of flushing these down the toilet, which according to Michael on The Office would be "lose-lose," why don't we use these cells for the benefit of humanity? ?That would be win-win! ?We'd be handed lemons, and we'd then be making lemonade! ?

Do you really think anyone likes abortion? ?I don't and would never have one done unless my wife's health was at risk or the developing fetus was defective. ?Who the hell are you or my government to tell me I have to live the rest of my life a widower or a caretaker to a drooling vegetable? ?Fuck that shit.

You also said I don't want these women to take responsibility. ?That is false. ?There's nothing more in this world I'd like (aside from Scarlett Johansson sitting on my face) than for people to wait to have sex after marriage, and more realistically if they don't, to practice safe sex to avoid this whole discussion...but I live on the planet Earth. ?People do stupid things. ?They fuck without waiting. ?They fuck without protection. ?They fuck without love. ?They fuck up. ?Add to this the fact that most of these unwanted pregnancies happen with less educated women who aren't prepared to handle the responsibilities of parenthood. ?More often than not, fuck-ups breed more fuck-ups. ?

Call me what you will, but I believe no pregnancy should be carried to term unless both man and woman have stated ahead of time they are planning on having a child. ?How do you like them apples? ?That would ensure 100% loved and wanted children. ?What a world that would be. ?(okay, that's talking out of my ass, but it's fun to talk crazy sometimes! ? ) ?I just wish people were a little more responsible.

Also, I don't care if a quote is from a person left, right, or off the 3-dimensional map! ?If a quote is spot-on, I love it! ?I'll stick by the fascism arriving wearing a flag and carrying a cross.
Alot of my law and order views are to the right of Genghis Khan! ?Where do I fall on the ol' political stereotype map? ?Boy, I think I just blew some minds! ? ?

PS to Russian Roulette...I support anybody's right to commit suicide.  Again, I don't think it's the best option 99.99% of the time, but who am I to stop them? 

 ? ? ?

[mainline]

I love even-keeled discussions and I thank you for your time. ?First-off, let's get one thing straight. ?A woman who decides to get an abortion has an unwanted fetus in her body. ?You are correct, the vast majority are neither the result of rape, incest, or pregnancy complications, they are the result of a man and a woman making a mistake in the heat of passion. ?Yes, I'd agree that for that encounter that couple behaved irresponsibly. ?So, we have 2 options, carry the fetus to term or abort it. ?Do you really want more children born to mothers who don't want that child? ?Do you honestly think there are enough families out there that want to adopt the approximately 2.4 or something million babies per year that are aborted?? ?There aren't. ?

Just think rationally for a second. ?In my eyes, I know I've said it before, but to me, the greatest crime in this world is bringing a child into the world that is not loved and wanted by its parents. ?A beautiful drug is now available that will cut the number of abortions in half to a little over a million per year. ?If taken within 24 hours, it prevents fertilization from even occurring! ?What a wonderful thing! ?

Now, I noticed you failed to mention the millions of "embryo souls" hanging in limbo as we speak. ?There little souls are crying every day of their frozen "egg"sistence. ?Every day growing more stale, and ultimately, and so sadly, having to be destroyed because they don't last forever. ?Hey, I've got an idea, instead of flushing these down the toilet, which according to Michael on The Office would be "lose-lose," why don't we use these cells for the benefit of humanity? ?That would be win-win! ?We'd be handed lemons, and we'd then be making lemonade! ?

Do you really think anyone likes abortion? ?I don't and would never have one done unless my wife's health was at risk or the developing fetus was defective. ?Who the hell are you or my government to tell me I have to live the rest of my life a widower or a caretaker to a drooling vegetable? ?Fuck that shit.

You also said I don't want these women to take responsibility. ?That is false. ?There's nothing more in this world I'd like (aside from Scarlett Johansson sitting on my face) than for people to wait to have sex after marriage, and more realistically if they don't, to practice safe sex to avoid this whole discussion...but I live on the planet Earth. ?People do stupid things. ?They fuck without waiting. ?They fuck without protection. ?They fuck without love. ?They fuck up. ?Add to this the fact that most of these unwanted pregnancies happen with less educated women who aren't prepared to handle the responsibilities of parenthood. ?More often than not, fuck-ups breed more fuck-ups. ?

Call me what you will, but I believe no pregnancy should be carried to term unless both man and woman have stated ahead of time they are planning on having a child. ?How do you like them apples? ?That would ensure 100% loved and wanted children. ?What a world that would be. ?(okay, that's talking out of my ass, but it's fun to talk crazy sometimes! ? ) ?I just wish people were a little more responsible.

I get what you're saying.? I realize the harsh "realities" of living here on planet earth.? Just keep in mind that your's (and many others) stance on abortion undercuts any moral arguments you want to make in regards to the death penalty, war in Iraq, etc.

Also, I don't care if a quote is from a person left, right, or off the 3-dimensional map! ?If a quote is spot-on, I love it! ?I'll stick by the fascism arriving wearing a flag and carrying a cross.? Alot of my law and order views are to the right of Genghis Khan! ?Where do I fall on the ol' political stereotype map? ?Boy, I think I just blew some minds! ? ?

You seem more objective than many around here.? That's why I'm surprised you would agree with another poster (who is so patentedly unobjective) regarding a quote that is so NOT spot-on.

[Axl4Prez2004]

^^^Thanks for the compliment.  I think you might be referring to slcpunk.  Like most folks around here, I agree with some of his posts, and disagree with others. 
Mainline, I'd like to see your reply to the 4 issues above.  Like I said, while abortion to me is a very bad thing, I believe the alternative (restriction) is worse.  We can always agree to disagree, but wow, to not allow federal funding of real stem cell research boggles my mind.
  I know it's not in the subject of the thread, but those frozen embryos open up a big can of worms huh?
  Would anyone here agree that a long miserable life never to interact with another human, living in a dark, bookless, tv-less, newspaper-less cell, is worse than a death penalty?  Some may claim emotional torture, but in my eyes, it's a real deterrent, almost the epitome of hell on earth, which is what I want these scumbags to experience.

[Bandita]

Well since this thread was dug up and people are posting in it here goes:

Death Penalty: for-except I think they should die by starvation and lack of water or suffer however they made their victim suffer.  Lethal injection is too nice for me.  Bring back the guillotine.

Abortion: Early 1st term only, no late term-if you are going to make a decision to do this it should not take many months.  There needs to be a lot more education in this department about birth control not only for the sake of preventing abortions but for other diseases that come from unprotected sex as well.

Gun control: ludicrous and impossible to control at this point no matter what laws are enacted-where there is a will there is a way.  Just like the "war" on drugs we have been in for how many years now? 

War in Iraq-Notice when this thread started.  Go to page 1.  Yup, 2004 and now we are nearing the end of 2006 and are in no better position from where we started.  Speculated death toll of Iraqi civilians=over 44,000.  Death toll of US soldiers since war started=2809.  Non mortal casualties of US soldiers since war started=over 44,000. Coalition casualties=approx 240.  That adds up to over 92,000 deaths and casualties since this supposed "war" started with numbers increasing daily.  I think it's pretty clear where I stand on this.

[HamsterDemocracy]

Well since this thread was dug up and people are posting in it here goes:

Death Penalty: for-except I think they should die by starvation and lack of water or suffer however they made their victim suffer.  Lethal injection is too nice for me.  Bring back the guillotine.

Abortion: Early 1st term only, no late term-if you are going to make a decision to do this it should not take many months.  There needs to be a lot more education in this department about birth control not only for the sake of preventing abortions but for other diseases that come from unprotected sex as well.

Gun control: ludicrous and impossible to control at this point no matter what laws are enacted-where there is a will there is a way.  Just like the "war" on drugs we have been in for how many years now? 

War in Iraq-Notice when this thread started.  Go to page 1.  Yup, 2004 and now we are nearing the end of 2006 and are in no better position from where we started.  Speculated death toll of Iraqi civilians=over 44,000.  Death toll of US soldiers since war started=2809.  Non mortal casualties of US soldiers since war started=over 44,000. Coalition casualties=approx 240.  That adds up to over 92,000 deaths and casualties since this supposed "war" started with numbers increasing daily.  I think it's pretty clear where I stand on this.

Aye, good post Bandita. I'm not sure I agree with the cruel punishment for death row inmates. I mean, I can understand the emotional motivation for this, but sadly if you give the government this kind of power it's a step in the wrong direction. You start by slowly "hurting" prison inmates in this way and it's just enough room for the government to keep pushing further until it's not a democracy anymore. I think it's important to alter the Constitution as LITTLE as possible.

And also about gun control - definitely agree. Outlawing guns is stupid because it would just make it another drug empire.

I hate gun enthusiasts and I work at a book store and the people who always read all the gun magazines are annoying rednecks (yes, that's a generalization, but sue me). They're the type who bring shotguns to UFO sightings because they think a blast from a shotgun is going to damage a spacecraft that has traveled thousands of lightyears through outer space faster than the speed of sound. They're also the people who refer to Iraqis as "Iraqians" and have USA bumper stickers and do their food and clothes shopping at Wal=Mart.

But it's a Constitutional right to bear arms and I think it would be a mistake to alter this, because it is opening up a bad path.

[Surfrider]

I love even-keeled discussions and I thank you for your time. ?First-off, let's get one thing straight. ?A woman who decides to get an abortion has an unwanted fetus in her body. ?You are correct, the vast majority are neither the result of rape, incest, or pregnancy complications, they are the result of a man and a woman making a mistake in the heat of passion. ?Yes, I'd agree that for that encounter that couple behaved irresponsibly. ?So, we have 2 options, carry the fetus to term or abort it. ?Do you really want more children born to mothers who don't want that child? ?Do you honestly think there are enough families out there that want to adopt the approximately 2.4 or something million babies per year that are aborted?? ?There aren't. ?

Just think rationally for a second. ?In my eyes, I know I've said it before, but to me, the greatest crime in this world is bringing a child into the world that is not loved and wanted by its parents. ?

So it is better to kill a child based on a mere probability that the child will have a hard life than it is to allow that child to live a hard life.

[Izzy]

Death Penalty - the ultimate injustice. The state works for the protection of all its citizens - to lower itself to common base emotions like revenge shows a primitive backwards culture. How dare the state decide who lives and who dies

Abortion: totally the woman's choice, should be available to all women

Gun control: no one should own a gun, and in a working society no one needs to own a gun. A fixation with guns is nothing but chronic insecurity and paranoia

War in iraq: the greatest tragedy since Vietnam, a horrific mistake by naive (or evil) leaders - pull out now, for gods sake

[Grouse]

Death Penalty - the ultimate injustice. The state works for the protection of all its citizens - to lower itself to common base emotions like revenge shows a primitive backwards culture. How dare the state decide who lives and who dies

Abortion: totally the woman's choice, should be available to all women

Gun control: no one should own a gun, and in a working society no one needs to own a gun. A fixation with guns is nothing but chronic insecurity and paranoia

War in iraq: the greatest tragedy since Vietnam, a horrific mistake by naive (or evil) leaders - pull out now, for gods sake

Wow Really couldn't have said it better myself....

[pasnow]

Death Penalty -? How dare the state decide who lives and who dies

Abortion: totally the woman's choice, should be available to all women
 

So the victims families have no say, but the Mother of an unborn child does?! How about the baby's father?

I'm not trying to come down hard on your views, just find a hint of contradiction in your strong opinions, but you are entitled to them. I closely agree, so I'll list mine as follows:

Death Penalty - I feel it's ok, under the right circumstances. Contrary to beleif, not many people are executed in the US per year (well, except in Texas). And some (I won't name names) who deserve to, stay under the appeals process for decades. Overall I feel it's needed. Take 9/11, obviously the attackers themselves hadn't survived, but if they had, I wouldn't want the law prevent them from being executed, I'd say Kill 'em all.

Abortion - I wouldn't want a girlfriend or sister or cousin have one done, but that said, I don't feel I can say what another girl far away chooses to do.

Gun Control -Chris Rock was right, don't tax the guns, tax the bullets. Charge $1000 tax on each bullet, that'll make 'em think twice before killing somebody.? ? But seriously, I think it should be governed locally, as some areas need stricter laws than others... And the members of the NRA live in areas where they are not needed.

War - Oil, totally bad move as everything said about Iraq (Dictator leader, cruel to citizens, WMD's) can and now is being said about many other countries (N. Korea, Somalia etc). So it's no coincidence a President from Texas (read: Oil) "happened" to goto war with the country with a large oil capability. To go further with countries like China, Russia, & India becoming developed the value of oil is going to drastically increase as the citizens of those countries will soon afford a car per household.


That said, I think a few of those are election day hub-bub that will never be overturned (abortion, death penalty, gun control). Bush elected 2 new Supreme Court justices & that was the GOP's perfect opportunity to overturn Roe vs. Wade, however they haven't. It's a much better Election Day vote gaining mechanism than it is an actual law. Same thing with "Flag burning" they've been debating that since the 80's, it'll never be a law. They just bring it up every big election year, and the new one is going to be Gay Marraige.

[The Dog]

^^^Thanks for the compliment.  I think you might be referring to slcpunk.  Like most folks around here, I agree with some of his posts, and disagree with others. 
Mainline, I'd like to see your reply to the 4 issues above.  Like I said, while abortion to me is a very bad thing, I believe the alternative (restriction) is worse.  We can always agree to disagree, but wow, to not allow federal funding of real stem cell research boggles my mind.
  I know it's not in the subject of the thread, but those frozen embryos open up a big can of worms huh?
  Would anyone here agree that a long miserable life never to interact with another human, living in a dark, bookless, tv-less, newspaper-less cell, is worse than a death penalty?  Some may claim emotional torture, but in my eyes, it's a real deterrent, almost the epitome of hell on earth, which is what I want these scumbags to experience.

Dude, forget Axl 4 prez...you should run    I agree with almost everything you're saying except the death penalty, while in theory your idea is good, it'd be way too expensive.  For murderes where there is absolutey no doubt they committed crime (mass witnesses, videotape, caught in the act etc...) they should be sentenced to death and the appeal process should be removed.  When you take someone elses life you should lose the right to have your own.

[The Dog]

Death Penalty -  How dare the state decide who lives and who dies

Abortion: totally the woman's choice, should be available to all women
 

That said, I think a few of those are election day hub-bub that will never be overturned (abortion, death penalty, gun control). Bush elected 2 new Supreme Court justices & that was the GOP's perfect opportunity to overturn Roe vs. Wade, however they haven't. It's a much better Election Day vote gaining mechanism than it is an actual law. Same thing with "Flag burning" they've been debating that since the 80's, it'll never be a law. They just bring it up every big election year, and the new one is going to be Gay Marraige.

You're spot on about that.  If Repubs didn't have these issues to run on anymore they would actually have to run on things like education, healthcare, the economy....now that'd be something wouldn't it

[mainline]

Mainline, I'd like to see your reply to the 4 issues above.? Like I said, while abortion to me is a very bad thing, I believe the alternative (restriction) is worse.? We can always agree to disagree, but wow, to not allow federal funding of real stem cell research boggles my mind.? I know it's not in the subject of the thread, but those frozen embryos open up a big can of worms huh?

You seem to essentially be saying abortion is a necessary evil.? I will say it's refreshing to see someone who is "pro-choice" actually admit that abortion isn't a good thing.? Many people's arguments in defending it have become so twisted - choosing to focus just on the "choice" part while forgetting about the child - that they make abortion sound almost like it's something to celebrate.

Again, you make some very valid points in explaining your stance on abortion.? But, in principle alone, I cannot agree with you.? There is always a chance that a child will be unwanted, neglected, abused.? There is always a chance that any number of horrible things will happen to a person in this life.? But that is no excuse for abortion.? Our society today prides itself on its advancement of human rights and the value it puts on human life.? People march against evil wars.? They wonder why nothing has been done to stop the killing in the Sudan.? They read about the Holocaust and ask themselves how it could have happened.? Some will even defend the right of a murderer to live.? Meanwhile, with a nod and a wink, people are OK with widespread, legalized, systematic killing of unborn children.? Few seem to notice, let alone admit, the glaring hypocricy.? Instead, they come up with various ways to justify it.? People say abortion should be allowed becuase life doesn't begin until birth.? The reality is people simply claim that convenient belief in order to keep abortion legal.? People say that, since its the woman's body, it is her right to choose.? In actuality, that choice involves two person's bodies.? Furthermore, anyone who uses that argument must concede that an abortion at any time up to the actual birth is allowable.? After all, whether it is the first month or the ninth month, it's still her body right?? People are OK with abortion if it is done before a certain point in the pregnancy.? Whether they realize it or not, they are saying that life before some arbitrary point - of their own choosing - is not of any value.

And where life begins obviously comes into play regarding stem cell research.? While I understand arguments on both sides, in order to be consistent, I have to be against it.? At least, that is what is evident to me from what I know on the subject as a whole.

Would anyone here agree that a long miserable life never to interact with another human, living in a dark, bookless, tv-less, newspaper-less cell, is worse than a death penalty?? Some may claim emotional torture, but in my eyes, it's a real deterrent, almost the epitome of hell on earth, which is what I want these scumbags to experience.

People always put the death penalty within the framework of deterrence.? In reality, there really is no way to know whether it is a deterrent or not.? But I'll tell you this, being put to death definitely "deterred" Ted Bundy from every killing again.? To me, capital punishment isn't so much about deterrence as it is about justice.? Life in prison might fit in some instances but, in capital murder cases, anything less than the life of the murderer is a robbery of justice.

While I've shot a gun now and again, I've never felt the need or desire to own one.? Other people do, however, and it is their Constitutional right.? There are those who say they value the Constitution, yet seem to wish the 2nd amendment never existed or would just go away.? Waiting periods, background checks, etc. make sense.? But, in all reality, overly strict gun control laws won't stop violence involving guns or criminals from getting them.

In my opinion, groups like Al-Qaeda are simply a symptom of a larger disease - destitute, disfunctional, dictator-run societies that fuel armies built on the perversion of a religion.? Both Afghanistan and Iraq were and are a part of that disease.? Many say they supported going into Afghanistan but were against going into Iraq. Hypothetically speaking, we could have gone just into Afghanistan alone, kill a lot of Al-Qaeda members (maybe even getting Bin Laden himself), drive the Taliban from the region, and help set up a local government friendly to the West.? But the underlying problem described above would have remained.? It could be said that, as long as they stay within their own borders, a country's problems are none of our business.? After 9/11, it became our business.? And not just Al-Qaeda or Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, but the whole cancer that we know as the Middle East.? I see Iraq as a test-run.? A chance for at least one nation in that region to move beyond the dark whole it and so many of its neighbors are in.? Will it all end with the desired results?? I don't know.? It is ultimately up to the Iraqis whether their nation succeeds in democracy or falls into civil war.? Ironically, people in such countries as Iran, Syria, or North Korea should want the U.S. to succeed in Iraq.? If our efforts prove in vain, we'll know that instead of trying to build up an enemy nation, the answer may just be to simply destroy it.

[mainline]

Death Penalty - the ultimate injustice. The state works for the protection of all its citizens - to lower itself to common base emotions like revenge shows a primitive backwards culture. How dare the state decide who lives and who dies

Abortion: totally the woman's choice, should be available to all women

You obviously fail to recognize being for abortion totally undercuts your moral arguments against the death penalty.  Oh, the irony.....

[Axl4Prez2004]

^^^Thanks for the compliment.? I think you might be referring to slcpunk.? Like most folks around here, I agree with some of his posts, and disagree with others.?
Mainline, I'd like to see your reply to the 4 issues above.? Like I said, while abortion to me is a very bad thing, I believe the alternative (restriction) is worse.? We can always agree to disagree, but wow, to not allow federal funding of real stem cell research boggles my mind.
? I know it's not in the subject of the thread, but those frozen embryos open up a big can of worms huh?
? Would anyone here agree that a long miserable life never to interact with another human, living in a dark, bookless, tv-less, newspaper-less cell, is worse than a death penalty?? Some may claim emotional torture, but in my eyes, it's a real deterrent, almost the epitome of hell on earth, which is what I want these scumbags to experience.

Dude, forget Axl 4 prez...you should run? ? I agree with almost everything you're saying except the death penalty, while in theory your idea is good, it'd be way too expensive.? For murderes where there is absolutey no doubt they committed crime (mass witnesses, videotape, caught in the act etc...) they should be sentenced to death and the appeal process should be removed.? When you take someone elses life you should lose the right to have your own.

  Hey, thanks again, I could flip-flop on the death penalty for ya!  You know us flip-floppin Dems!     Seriously, mainline made the same point.  How do we know what's a deterrent?  Good question.  The answer?  There are many, many studies out there that show without a doubt, people who are committing these crimes either A: Don't give a fuck about the consequences, or B: Don't even think about the consequences.   The death penalty doesn't prevent crime, period, end of argument. 

  So, when you say the person loses the right to have their own life, you're right!  Cold, dark isolation with no comforts whatsoever...no human interaction, books, tv, music, no sunlight.  Go back to this prisoner's cell in northern Alaska, and at the end of 1 year.  Place a gun inside the cell without this person seeing you, because we can't allow him the pleasure of seeing another human being...and guess what he'll do with that gun.  If 99% of you said he'd try to fire the unloaded gun into his mouth or against the side of his head, you're probably right.  This is why I'm against the death penalty.  The majority would choose this alternative to real punishment...a real deterrent, like the one I've outlined.  The problem with our current life in prison system isn't the lack of a consistent death penalty, which religious wack-job fundamentalists are more than happy to die under, it's the lack of punishment (not physical torture mind you), that makes most potential death rowers contest the ruling.

  Now, like on the abortion issue, where I've tried to choose the lesser of 2 evils.  The death penalty can be viewed in the same efficient manner.  We know that the death penalty does not decrease the # of violent crimes.  Every properly conducted study shows this.  I don't look at things through religious bias.  I don't care about souls or forgiveness or any moral hang-ups, I desire law and order.  I look at the facts. 
  Now, currently, we have a choice between death penalty and prison for life with no chance of parole.  Will this person kill again?  No either way, throw that point out the window.  Will this person's death via the death penalty make a potential killer re-think his plan?  You might think so, but no, it's not backed up by any research.  So, what do we do?  Is it cheaper to keep this scumbag in prison his whole life, or to put a 25 cent bullet in his brain?  Well, the answer might surprise some.  It's cheaper to house and feed this person for life under our current system.  Much cheaper.  There are many appeals allowed at this time that make it more expensive for the state to go through the endless appeals.
 
  Back to abortion, I really do think technology will advance to the point where abortion won't even be necessary.  With the right technology present in the human body, even the dumbest of the dumb will not be allowed to conceive without choosing to do so.