Do Americans Hate Themselves?

[GnRNightrain]

Hannity, O'reilly, Rush etc hate Hollywood because there are actors you use who they are to speak out (against what they believe). However you never hear the right wing ditto heads complaining when Mel Gibson or Ron Silver use there Hollywood influence to draw attention to their (right wing) political agenda. Nor do any of you guys complain or call them "elitists".

I dont know when Gibson ever said anything political regarding our leaders or our war.  He doesnt call our government stupid and doesnt pretend to have a phd when he didnt even graduate from high school.  In fact, probably every mention of him on this board was in regards to the Passion.  He received more shit for that movie than anyone.

You watch these shows, hear what they say and repeat it. Nothing more, nothing less. Ignoring the hypocritical nature of your entire "argument".

Dont watch these shows much.  Sorry.  Instead of refuting the comments, you call us followers.  How much independent thought comes out of your Conservative, Bush, and War bashing?  No too much my friend.

What a stupid fucknig statement.? You attack Loretians characterization of those in Hollywood, then you do the same name calling in regards to this adiministration.

I'm just giving tit for tat.

The thing is, you dont just give it tit for tat.  It is usually such name calling that brings us into the debate in the first place.

If he is going to try to make this an "evil Liberal" issue, which he started, it was his can of worms he opened, then he should look at both sides.

He never said "evil."  He is just simply pointing out the unrefuted fact that 90% of hollywood are liberal.  You dont think that is portrayed at all in movies?  If someone said talk radio makes it look like all Americans love their country, Im sure you would point out that all talk radio is basically conservative.

Invading a country that did not attack us (yea 50% believe it was ok, but 50% don't , plus the rest of the world), right wing backing of the NRA, pro-death penalty, all may contribute to why people think we are a violent nation.

You characterize the right wing in the same negative light as you claim we characterize the left wing.  Who is the hypocrite?  Im not going to disagree that this is why other countries have that view towards us.  However, we are our own nation, and I dont think we should change our laws to accomodate what other people think our laws should be.  That is a key difference between Conservatives and Liberals.  I also think that people outside America are strongly misinformed about these issues inside America.   

Maybe you'd be more at home on the Sean Hannity boards.

A statement like this would make you leave this board for a month.  Believe it or not, Im not much of a Sean Hannity fan.  I do believe he is a talking points guy with little original thought.  I dont listen to him or watch him.  I think it is good to have a board with a difference of opinion.  But it doesnt suprise me, like most liberals at University campuses, that you want the Conservatives to go away so that you can have a board full of like minded people so that you are never criticized and that you can pat each other in the ass

[sandman]

europe has always hated the US, and they always will hate the US.

but the feelings are mutual.

and you think they hate us now.....just wait til we win the world cup. 

[pilferk]

a very determined Soviet Army (who, while vastly underequipped, were, perhaps, the toughest "soldiers" of their day).?

Agreed with everything but this, I've always been under the impression that the Russians sucked in every aspect except their huge numbers, and that their method of winning was just sending hordes of troops at the enemy. Perhaps the image is partly result of the wars against Finland during WW2, where nearly ten Russians died for each fallen Finn. Also, when you look at total losses for USSR during WW2, it's hard to think of the soldiers as very tough...

It's true they needed numeric superiority to be trully dangerous...largely because they were so ridiculously underequipped....which is precisely why they are regarded by many as being so tough.  These guys fought with the equivalent of rocks and sticks (not literally, obviously), against opponents who were equipped vastly better than they were.  But they didn't lay down arms...they fought knowing they were more than likely to die.  They fought in conditions (weather, etc) that would have ruined most regimented armies in equipment that did very little to protect them.  They were undertrained, out gunned, and up against what was widely considered the most effective fighting force on the planet at that time: The German Army.  And they won.  Granted, they did have a shorter supply line, and the bonus of almost limitless reinforcements, a luxury the Germans did not enjoy.  But still.....there's many things you can say about the Soviet Army.  But you can't deny they were tough SOBs....

[Axls Locomotive]

europe has always hated the US, and they always will hate the US.

but the feelings are mutual.

and you think they hate us now.....just wait til we win the world cup. 

you mean pay for it? you'll have to do better than beating trinidad by the odd goal

btw such generic statements mean nothing...always the extreme with you isnt it? got to shove peoples opinions into the corner...

True, though you'll note that the offensive to capture Stalingrad occurred in June of 1942 and lasted into 1943, if I remember correctly....More than 6 months after Pearl Harbor, and well after the US had mobilized troops to fight in Europe.  This lead to Germany having to fight a much more vigorous 2 front war than they would have otherwise had to, had the US not been involved. 

Stalingrad was the first major battle that the germans lost in WW2, and the americans and british were fighting the italians in sicily around the same time...
in fact the americans/british didnt make it out of italy until the middle of 1944 and d-day wasnt until the middle of 1944 too...by that time the russians had beaten the german army time and time again and taken most of their country back and more

[sandman]

europe has always hated the US, and they always will hate the US.

but the feelings are mutual.

and you think they hate us now.....just wait til we win the world cup.?

you mean pay for it? you'll have to do better than beating trinidad by the odd goal

btw such generic statements mean nothing...always the extreme with you isnt it? got to shove peoples opinions into the corner...

True, though you'll note that the offensive to capture Stalingrad occurred in June of 1942 and lasted into 1943, if I remember correctly....More than 6 months after Pearl Harbor, and well after the US had mobilized troops to fight in Europe.? This lead to Germany having to fight a much more vigorous 2 front war than they would have otherwise had to, had the US not been involved.?

Stalingrad was the first major battle that the germans lost in WW2, and the americans and british were fighting the italians in sicily around the same time...
in fact the americans/british didnt make it out of italy until the middle of 1944 and d-day wasnt until the middle of 1944 too...by that time the russians had beaten the german army time and time again and taken most of their country back and more

i guess you missed the last world cup when america made it to the second round and completely outplayed germany (2nd place finisher). AND the fact that we have been ranked in the top 10 for a few years now. AND we continue to improve.

not sure what you're talking about me "shoving people's opinions into a corner". a few people in this thread said they hate america (which apparently means they hate america's politics). well, there's plenty of americans who "hate" europe because they disagree with their politics.

and no one has ever been labeled as "non-patriotic" because they disagree with one party or the other. and statements like that prove that the rest of the world do not understand america at all.

[Skeletor]

a few people in this thread said they hate america

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v

europe has always hated the US, and they always will hate the US.

Right-o?

[Axls Locomotive]

i guess you missed the last world cup when america made it to the second round and completely outplayed germany (2nd place finisher). AND the fact that we have been ranked in the top 10 for a few years now. AND we continue to improve.

not sure what you're talking about me "shoving people's opinions into a corner". a few people in this thread said they hate america (which apparently means they hate america's politics). well, there's plenty of americans who "hate" europe because they disagree with their politics.

and no one has ever been labeled as "non-patriotic" because they disagree with one party or the other. and statements like that prove that the rest of the world do not understand america at all.

you are only in the top 10 because you play countries like haiti, trinidad, panama, honduras,guatemala,grenada, el salvador,costa rica,jamaica...the only real competition you have is mexico and they are only  one of the top countries because of the same reason...in reality if you had to play stronger sides you would be in the 30's-40's rather than the top 10...thats also why iran are number 19 and costa rica are 22 ahead of far superior teams like nigeria and korea

thanks for elaborating

[jgfnsr]

These are foxspeak words you guys throw out when you don't like somebody. It's become common to hear all the right-wing talking heads use these terms. It is used to draw in the average guy...especially hearing words like "elitist".

Boring drone talk....and no I don't think it describes Hollywood.

You wanna talk about "boring drone talk" SLCPUNK?

You're the guy who is always crying "Foxspeak this" and "Foxspeak that" but has never been willing to acknowldege any bias in the media your way.

I think just about anyone who has been on this board for any substantial length of time is all too familiar with "SLCPUNK -speak."

You're as predictable as they come.

Hannity, O'reilly, Rush etc hate Hollywood because there are actors you use who they are to speak out (against what they believe). However you never hear the right wing ditto heads complaining when Mel Gibson or Ron Silver use there Hollywood influence to draw attention to their (right wing) political agenda. Nor do any of you guys complain or call them "elitists".

While I'm not even sure what you're talking about in regards to Ron Silver, exactly what "right wing political agenda" did Mel Gibson have?? Since Gibson is against the war in Iraq (like yourself), I have to assume you must be talking about something else.? Is it The Passion of the Christ?? By all means clarify...

You watch these shows, hear what they say and repeat it. Nothing more, nothing less. Ignoring the hypocritical nature of your entire "argument".

You're correct, many of them do that and loose much of their credibility in the process.? But others make a lot of sense which you tend to disregard.

But this also shouldn't surprise anyone being as you're the guy who touts, of all things, Al-Jazeera.

If he is going to try to make this an "evil Liberal" issue, which he started, it was his can of worms he opened, then he should look at both sides. Invading a country that did not attack us (yea 50% believe it was ok, but 50% don't , plus the rest of the world), right wing backing of the NRA, pro-death penalty, all may contribute to why people think we are a violent nation.

While I am the last person to believe the U.S. should base it's policy on what the rest of the world thinks, I would say your assumptions that everyone outside America agrees with your point of view might be a bit of a stretch.?

Like those within our own nation, those who happen to agree with you elsewhere often tend to be the most shrill in vocalizing their opinions.?

Maybe you'd be more at home on the Sean Hannity boards.

I'd say the same for you and moveon.org except for the fact that their pretty much obselete now.

[jgfnsr]

At least, if by "helped out", you mean with our military going over to actually fight...which is when the actual tide of the war changed.

The tide of the war changed when the Germans lost at Stalingrad.

Yes but if Germany wasn't already fighting the United States, England, and others on the western front the Nazi's would have absolutely crushed the Russian army.

[jgfnsr]

Stalingrad was the first major battle that the germans lost in WW2, and the americans and british were fighting the italians in sicily around the same time...
in fact the americans/british didnt make it out of italy until the middle of 1944 and d-day wasnt until the middle of 1944 too...by that time the russians had beaten the german army time and time again and taken most of their country back and more

Once again, as I pointed out to Skeletor above, if Germany wasn't already fighting the Americans and the British on the western front, they would have easily defeated the Russians.

[Friedemann]

I think it's funny in a way that all the Americans who've ever been to Europe say how well they've been treated --- what do you expect? An angry mob chasing you down the street as soon as you mention you're American? Come on --- maybe American rednecks would do that, though

back to topic I thought up something else: the roots of American democracy are very small administrative units - counties. I've always found it impressing how active and dedicated Americans are on that basic level (is "grassroots" the right word?) - they run for all kinds of public jobs, help each other and all of that. However, everything beyond the county line already seems to be foreign --- ideally and comically represented by that dude with his suit and horse and carriage coming from afar trying to sell magic potions. That's an American original as well - maybe it's another symbol of the archetypical (is that a word?) smalltown America that has eventually spread to cover this huge country

and as some posters have already mentioned, Americans themselves consider their system rather antiquated

[jgfnsr]

I think it's funny in a way that all the Americans who've ever been to Europe say how well they've been treated --- what do you expect? An angry mob chasing chasing you down the street as soon as you mention you're American? Come on --- maybe American rednecks would do that, though

Is some European countries Americans are treated just fine. 

Other's negative reputations are well deserved.

[pilferk]

europe has always hated the US, and they always will hate the US.

but the feelings are mutual.

and you think they hate us now.....just wait til we win the world cup.?

you mean pay for it? you'll have to do better than beating trinidad by the odd goal

btw such generic statements mean nothing...always the extreme with you isnt it? got to shove peoples opinions into the corner...

True, though you'll note that the offensive to capture Stalingrad occurred in June of 1942 and lasted into 1943, if I remember correctly....More than 6 months after Pearl Harbor, and well after the US had mobilized troops to fight in Europe.? This lead to Germany having to fight a much more vigorous 2 front war than they would have otherwise had to, had the US not been involved.?

Stalingrad was the first major battle that the germans lost in WW2, and the americans and british were fighting the italians in sicily around the same time...
in fact the americans/british didnt make it out of italy until the middle of 1944 and d-day wasnt until the middle of 1944 too...by that time the russians had beaten the german army time and time again and taken most of their country back and more

As Axl'srant pointed out (and I mentioned in my initial post), again, the Germans were aiding the Italians and fighting a two front war.  One front was against the European countries which had been newly re-enforced (and re-invigorated) by US troops and equipment.  That, combined with Hitler's inane decision to split up Army Company South was a LARGE reason the Russians were able to pull off the defeat of the Germans in Stalingrad.  This continued to be a large factor in their continued victories...Germany was being "squeezed" on both sides.

[Friedemann]

Other's negative reputations are well deserved.

you've been tricked by pickpockets or what? They do that to everybody


and since somebody came up with World War Two: as soon as they had America's vast economic power fully behind them it was clear (if it wasn't before) that the Brits would not settle for less than the complete defeat of the Third Reich

--- and after the Invasion was completed successfully the race was pretty much run

[pilferk]

I think it's funny in a way that all the Americans who've ever been to Europe say how well they've been treated --- what do you expect? An angry mob chasing chasing you down the street as soon as you mention you're American? Come on --- maybe American rednecks would do that, though

back to topic I thought up something else: the roots of American democracy are very small administrative units - counties. I've always found it impressing how active and dedicated Americans are on that basic level (is "grassroots" the right word?) - they run for all kinds of public jobs, help each other and all of that. However, everything beyond the county line already seems to be foreign --- ideally and comically represented by that dude with his suit and horse and carriage coming from afar trying to sell magic potions. That's an American original as well - maybe it's another symbol of the archetypical (is that a word?) smalltown America that has eventually spread to cover this huge country

and as some posters have already mentioned, Americans themselves consider their system rather antiquated

I'm not sure why more Americans don't run for public office.? I assume it's commitment.? "Local officers" usually combine their service along side their career, not doing it AS their career.? Career politics, especially early on, is very expensive.? Mid-level office, where you're expected to make the service your career isn't exactly well paying...leaving you to supplement that with some sort of additional income.? That means you either have "rich" politicians at that level, or you're left with those who have a career path that allows part time/consulting work.? That whittles the pool of candidates down quickly.

And, again, the "potion seller", or pedlar/flim flam artist, is hardly an American Original.? The Gypsy's were doing it in the dark ages....

[Friedemann]

yeah I know it's a stereotype

but I think you get the point.

By the way, the carpetbaggers in the wake of the Civil War were indeed an American original, right? I guess it was them that I was like thinking about in the first place

[Skeletor]

the Nazi's would have absolutely crushed the Russian army.

  Reading your posts, I've been rolling my eyes so much I think I'm going to strain them. Crushed, you say, an opponent that 1) greatly outnumbered Germany, 2) was defending their home terrain, and 3) was properly equipped for winter war? You are so out of it. Are you even aware of how many Germans died during the winter of '41 in the eastern front, just freezing to death? The weather killed as many men as the Soviet bullets. The German soldiers were wearing summer clothing at temperatures -20 to -40 degrees Celsius. Imagine fighting in those conditions.

Hitler thought conquering the USSR would be easy, after he saw how well Finland was able to wage war against them. You are obviously as dumb as he was.

[sandman]

a few people in this thread said they hate america

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|
v

europe has always hated the US, and they always will hate the US.

Right-o?

skel - read the whole thread and you'll understand people's posts much better. 

IQ - so i guess you DID miss the last world cup since you totally ignored my primary comment about outplaying germany. germany won 1-0, but by their own account they were "disgraced" in the match. we also beat a paraguay team that was favored to make it to the final 4, and was a popular pick among all the experts to win it all.

 

[sandman]

I think it's funny in a way that all the Americans who've ever been to Europe say how well they've been treated --- what do you expect? An angry mob chasing you down the street as soon as you mention you're American? Come on --- maybe American rednecks would do that, though

back to topic I thought up something else: the roots of American democracy are very small administrative units - counties. I've always found it impressing how active and dedicated Americans are on that basic level (is "grassroots" the right word?) - they run for all kinds of public jobs, help each other and all of that. However, everything beyond the county line already seems to be foreign --- ideally and comically represented by that dude with his suit and horse and carriage coming from afar trying to sell magic potions. That's an American original as well - maybe it's another symbol of the archetypical (is that a word?) smalltown America that has eventually spread to cover this huge country

and as some posters have already mentioned, Americans themselves consider their system rather antiquated

what exactly do you mean by your "redneck" comment? what do you think rednecks might do?

[jgfnsr]

  Reading your posts, I've been rolling my eyes so much I think I'm going to strain them. Crushed, you say, an opponent that 1) greatly outnumbered Germany, 2) was defending their home terrain, and 3) was properly equipped for winter war? You are so out of it. Are you even aware of how many Germans died during the winter of '41 in the eastern front, just freezing to death? The weather killed as many men as the Soviet bullets. The German soldiers were wearing summer clothing at temperatures -20 to -40 degrees Celsius. Imagine fighting in those conditions.

Hitler thought conquering the USSR would be easy, after he saw how well Finland was able to wage war against them. You are obviously as dumb as he was.

Since you felt free to cut out the first part of my statement allow me to stick it back in there mmmkay?

Yes but if Germany wasn't already fighting the United States, England, and others on the western front the Nazi's would have absolutely crushed the Russian army.

My point is the Nazi war machine was so extensive that, despite whatever obstacles you listed above, it would have simply overwhelmed the Russians had it been a one-front war.

Of course this is all hypothetical in the end...

Just as are the chances of you actually posting without coming across as a grade-A prick.?