Philosophical question of the month-June

[GeorgeSteele]

I feel that too often people of faith fit their answers around the questions i ask, rather than having a belief structure set out that provides an answer to any question i put forward.

That is exactly correct and judging from your thoughts on the meaning of life, you're no different. ?I think the reason for that goes back to our self-preservation instinct. ?Having a rigid belief structure leaves you open to the possibility of total disillusionment, which has the potential to shake the foundation of our lives, cause a nervous breakdown, etc, etc. ?

[2NaFish]

i've aleady proven god doesnt control our decision making; but he can improve it.

To improve would be to control.

also; god is the master creater. he created everything. and since evil exists, surely he created that too.

Maybe there's another powerful force that created evil.

i've already proven that it would not be to control with the jumping off a building analogy.

as for your second point. Go read the bible. You should find out why your point is wrong within the first paragraph.

[2NaFish]

That is exactly correct and judging from your thoughts on the meaning of life, you're no different.  I think the reason for that goes back to our self-preservation instinct.  Having a rigid belief structure leaves you open to the possibility of total disillusionment, which has the potential to shake the foundation of our lives, cause a nervous breakdown, etc, etc. 

i'm sorry, i don't quite get what you mean with the first sentence.

the only thing i would say is that up untill i read this thread i'd honestly never seriously asked myself what the meaning of life is. mine was just the first theory that came to mind. on any other given day i'd probably have spouted off some utilitarianism shit. generally i just like playing devil's advocate.

[Jessica]

and what if life had no meaning ?

No purpose ?

can't it be we are stupid animals with no directions apart from eat, sleep, fuck and die ?

[journey]

i've already proven that it would not be to control with the jumping off a building analogy.

Your stair analogy doesn't prove the point, for me anyway.

As for the bible, it's been tampered with so much in the past.. Who's to say what's been taken out and added on. Besides, not everyone goes by the holy bible. There are other religions.

[2NaFish]

yeah, but not the opening paragraph of genesis stating that god created everything. and most other religions say god created everything. Anyway, if you honestly believe that something else cause natural disasters (evil not caused by man, like you said) then id love to know what that is.

the stair analogy, one last time.

humans 99 times out of a hundred will take the stairs. we are good at those types of decisions. great in fact. we are great at them because god made us great at them. we still have the free will to jump if we choose to, but we dont. why? because we're great at those decisions.

we don't have as high a rate when it comes to moral decisions why, because god made us poor at those decisions. we've always got the free will to do wrong, but why didnt god make us better. so that more often than we do now, we do the morally right thing?

if you can't see how that proves that god can tamper with decision making and not affect free will then i despair.

[Vicious Wishes]

"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration... that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves......Bill Hicks

[2NaFish]

here's tom with the weather.

[GeorgeSteele]

and what if life had no meaning ?

No purpose ?

can't it be we are stupid animals with no directions apart from eat, sleep, fuck and die ?

That is very possible, but what difference would it make?  We'd still rather be alive than dead and most of us would still care about being decent, moral people.

[GeorgeSteele]

That is exactly correct and judging from your thoughts on the meaning of life, you're no different.? I think the reason for that goes back to our self-preservation instinct.? Having a rigid belief structure leaves you open to the possibility of total disillusionment, which has the potential to shake the foundation of our lives, cause a nervous breakdown, etc, etc.?

i'm sorry, i don't quite get what you mean with the first sentence.

the only thing i would say is that up untill i read this thread i'd honestly never seriously asked myself what the meaning of life is. mine was just the first theory that came to mind. on any other given day i'd probably have spouted off some utilitarianism shit. generally i just like playing devil's advocate.

Sorry I wasn'y more clear... sometimes it gets hard to sneak in posts while I'm at work!   

Anyway, my point was that most people, including yourself (seemingly, at least), prefer not to invest too heavily in a rigid belief structure and a be all, end all meaning of life because if it turns out that everything you've believed is wrong, then what?  So, basically, I was just giving that as the reason why many people's responses to your interrogatories are adapted to your questions (as opposed to having a belief structure that can adequately respond to every question you pose).

With that said, it seems that your driven to prove that no belief structure can stand up to your interrogation.

[2NaFish]

well, i do try.....


....i don't think people need a rigid belief structure to enter into a debate like this. but if you're going to believe in something then do a little research. i mean faith is one thing, but alot of the questions i've asked have had responses from people that are clearly thinking on their feet. they've never conceived these sorts of situations could come up and if your not questioning your on faith then you're doing it a disservice.

like you said earlier, this situation isnt going to be resolved here - which means there must be adequate responses to every question i've posed. and there are, loads of them; i'd be happier if people knew what they were buying in to before they signed up to having a particular faith.

my role here was not to try and change or destroy peoples faith (i made my fundamentalist christian friend from the last page question his faith once and felt terrible and spent half an hour proving to him how i'd "tricked" him into the situation were i'd "proven" god didnt exist) but too many people are blind with their faith and that annoys me. and something tells me if the god they believed in exists he'd be annoyed at that too (actually, thats monumentally presumptuous)

[Sakib]

no. thats not correct. sakib said "Humans are tested in this world which is why there is so much evil". Therefore the evil put in this world comes from god as a test. Including atrocities like the holocaust. Where is the benefit of the holocaust?

And anyway, that just comes back to the point i made a dozen times that you never answered - if all the atrocities in the world which are not soul building come from us why didnt god make us better at making moral decisions. Remember i've already proven that god can improve any of our decision making processes without affecting free will.

That was a test for Hitler and the Nazis and the fact that they managed to corrupt Germany and maybe have a domino effect on a few other countries, it just goes to show how pathetic racial grudges are. It could actually be considered a test for others to show don't be so easily deceived (as people thought Nazis were great) and never over or underestimate anything (people thought Nazis were a joke at first. little did they realise they'd make history big time). It could be that Allah wanted to test faith of people in hope that they'd turn to Allah and the right religion/right path by putting them in extremeties of awful conditions (german economy was awful).
If we were all better at making moral decisions life wouldn't be a test now would it? Life is a trial remember and like a test, some elements of the test are harder than the others.

Allah knows best though

[Sakib]

I highly doubt life has no meaning as all of us are a bunch of atoms compiled together constructed of so much information it's enough to fill 1,000,000 pages of information and that's just one molecule of DNA and that's invisible and then the conditions of the Earth are too perfect for us to live in that to say it all happened as a mere coincidence is an empty and baseless statement.

[2NaFish]

why would life cease to be a test if people were better at making moral decisions? if people were perfect id say that was true, but just making people better? not at all.

And considering that there are infinite chances (my theory comes down to probabilty at the most basic level) then it is no longer mere coincidence. Just because things are infineltly complex does not prove creationism (Intelligent Desing is simply a trumped up way of disguising a tired theory) as there are infinite possibilities. A thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters will give shakespeare.

[Sakib]

why would life cease to be a test if people were better at making moral decisions? if people were perfect id say that was true, but just making people better? not at all.

And considering that there are infinite chances (my theory comes down to probabilty at the most basic level) then it is no longer mere coincidence. Just because things are infineltly complex does not prove creationism (Intelligent Desing is simply a trumped up way of disguising a tired theory) as there are infinite possibilities. A thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters will give shakespeare.

which creationism? The one in islam? Christianity? Hinduism? And if people were slightly more perfect life would cease to be a test because nobody's challenged to the appropriate degree

[2NaFish]

any and all creationism effectively. i'm not arguing against a religion, just god.

so you're saying the world is perfect and as it needs to be? the holocaust is a necessity? asian tsunami too? 9/11? etc, etc.

If thats God testing us then he's having a joke at our expense.

[Sakib]

any and all creationism effectively. i'm not arguing against a religion, just god.

so you're saying the world is perfect and as it needs to be? the holocaust is a necessity? asian tsunami too? 9/11? etc, etc.

If thats God testing us then he's having a joke at our expense.

well yes the world is perfect and Allah isn't having a joke. All these events, as morbid as they seem are perfect in Allah's yes because he's made the events happen. How could anyone learn or be tested without these events?Indonesia, a muslim state has had an earthquake/eruption of some sort. Why? Maybe because the muslim community is way too weak than maybe 500 years ago. A lot of muslims nowadays are less educated statistically and as a result less interested in islam than maybe a few centuries ago

[RichardNixon]

A follow-up, related question:

Does life need to have meaning for it to be worth living?

[Sin Cut]

What's driving your life forward if you don't have the meaning to it?

Whatever it is, offspring, career anything.

[RichardNixon]

What's driving your life forward if you don't have the meaning to it?

Whatever it is, offspring, career anything.

You don't really need something to drive your life forward. Everyday can be without meaning or hope. It becomes a choice. It?s either living, or committing suicide. If you don?t commit suicide, life is the only other choice, by default.