"Thhheeeeeee Yankees Lose! Theeeeeee Yankees lose!

[The Dog]

As awful as it is to see my Buccos finish under .500 for like the millionth time, nothing is sweeter for this Pirates fan living in NYC to see the Yankees lose yet again in the first round of the playoffs (to Jim Leyland nonetheless).  I love it.  All of these annoying yankee fans now have to watch the Mets in the next round hahah.  Its just so sweet - its almost like my team won or something. hahha. 

[BurningHills]

Please don't quote John Sterling.

I had to run the Yankees games on the AM station at the radio group that I work for, and I wanted to hang myself by the time the season ended last night from listening to that jackass ramble on for the whole season.

Susan Waldman didn't earn any points from me, either.

I couldn't wait for the season to end because of those two - AND I'M A YANKEES FAN!

[Bill 213]

I just have to give a warm Pennsylvanian kudos to the Yanks. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.  Let's see who Steinbrener fires this time around.

[Kujo]

I seriously dont consider this an upset, Detroit was kicking some major ass to end the season. Jim Leyland is an excellent manager, as is Joe Torre, but does not get the recognition he deserves. Right now Detroit is the only team that scares me in a match up with my Mets.

[Drew]

Great news! 

Now it's time for the Mets to go!

[Bill 213]

On Yahoo News:

Torre expected to be fired!  Pinella is going to take his place supposedly. 

[Kujo]

Great news!?

Now it's time for the Mets to go!

Anything is possible, but I dont see the Cards or the Padres slowing the Mets bats yet. Mets starting pitching isn't as strong as it was during the regular season, and their bullpen showed some weakness in two of the three games against the Dodgers. If Floyd is out for a prolonged period, that will hurt as his bat is starting to come around, but Endy Chavez is a more than capable back up off the bench.

As far as the Yankee situation, unless Torre quits, I dont see him going anywhere. Its not his fault the pitching got torn apart and that their 25 million dollar player didnt do a damn thing through out the series. If steinbrenner thinks Pinella would have done better than I think its about time he gets a room in one of those nice assisted living facilities in Tampa, because he would then be truly certifiably senile.

[Red Sox Fan]

hmm, obviously my name says it all...but im a mets fan 2

[Bodhi]

how can you like the red sox AND the mets?? they are mortal enemies...the only bigger enemy of the red sox is the yankees..remember 86? sox fans hate the mets with almost the same amount of passion as the yankees

[Kujo]

Until the '86 series I was a fan of both teams. Living in New York as a Mets fan, you always rooted for any team that the Yankees were enemies of. Don't hate the Mets though for what happened. Blame the Red Sox bullpen for blowing a 2 run lead with two outs and two strikes on numerous batters. Also blame Bob Stanley for not getting his ass off the mound and not covering first base on "The Play". Even if Buckner does field the ball Mookie Wilson still would have beaten Stanley to the base and Knight still scores to win the game.

[Eclipsed107]

Anyone who said at the beginning of this season that the (47 win) Tigers would have beaten the Yankees in the playoffs would have been called fucking retarded.

Ah what a great game baseball is.

[pilferk]

Unless you're a Mets, Cardinals, A's, or Detroit fan....why would you wanna laugh at the Yanks?

Your team was sitting at home watching the games....

To kujo: Detroit awesome at the end of the season? You sure you're not thinking of Minnesota?? Detroit sucked the last 2 to 3 weeks, ending it by being swept by the KC Royals.

As for Torre not having anything to do with A-rods woes, I'll respectfully disagree.? Bouncing him around the lineup like a vollyball just screws with his head...something that the media does more than enough of.? If he was trying to send A-rod a message...it failed miserably.? I'll also offer up that making A-rod any sort of scapegoat in this one is laughable.? The entire Yankee lineup, with the possible exceptions of Jeter and Posada, sucked.? Not one of them earned their paychecks.? To point at A-rod simply because his has the largest (well, not really....Texas picks up a big share of it) isn't really fair.

I suppose the news isn't all bad, at least for me.? The Mets are my 2nd favorite team, so at least I still have someone to root for.

[Communist China]

Another victory for all that is fair and just in the world.

[mikegiuliana]

they choked so hard.. Every year they've been choking.. Nice to see the yankee gear away and the mouths closed..

[mrlee]

wtf is all this about.....all crazy words?

[Red Sox Fan]

didnt know i couldnt like 2 teams, 1 from AL and 1 from NL..im from ct...figure it out i guess...

[Sober_times]

I hate The Mets, Somebody better beat em.

And its great to see the greatest Chokes Artists in the history of Baseball(thats right greatest, cuz no other team dropped a 3-0 lead in a seven game series in the history of baseball) The Yawkees Lose!!!. Well what can be expected when you have a team comprised of Gay-Rod, The Anit-Christ, Mandy Johnson and Mrs October. Ohh this year may have not been the year of the Sox, but damn its great to see the Yawkees swept.?

[pilferk]

I hate The Mets, Somebody better beat em.

And its great to see the greatest Chokes Artists in the history of Baseball(thats right greatest, cuz no other team dropped a 3-0 lead in a seven game series in the history of baseball) The Yawkees Lose!!!. Well what can be expected when you have a team comprised of Gay-Rod, The Anit-Christ, Mandy Johnson and Mrs October. Ohh this year may have not been the year of the Sox, but damn its great to see the Yawkees swept.?

If, indeed, you're a Red Sox fan....exactly what does that say about YOUR team?? I mean, from a 6 game lead in first to....finishing behind the Blue Jays?? It seems you guys have more to worry about than what happens to the Yanks in the playoffs...like, maybe making some moves to get BACK to them.

I mean...doesn't bagging on the team that owned you, beat you, and generally ended your season much earlier than you would have liked just make YOUR team look even worse?  I mean, at least the Yanks can say they lost to the eventual (and in dominating fashion) AL champs.  Hell, so far in the playoffs, they're the only team that's been able to beat Detroit.

[sandman]

I hate The Mets, Somebody better beat em.

And its great to see the greatest Chokes Artists in the history of Baseball(thats right greatest, cuz no other team dropped a 3-0 lead in a seven game series in the history of baseball) The Yawkees Lose!!!. Well what can be expected when you have a team comprised of Gay-Rod, The Anit-Christ, Mandy Johnson and Mrs October. Ohh this year may have not been the year of the Sox, but damn its great to see the Yawkees swept.?

If, indeed, you're a Red Sox fan....exactly what does that say about YOUR team?? I mean, from a 6 game lead in first to....finishing behind the Blue Jays?? It seems you guys have more to worry about than what happens to the Yanks in the playoffs...like, maybe making some moves to get BACK to them.

I mean...doesn't bagging on the team that owned you, beat you, and generally ended your season much earlier than you would have liked just make YOUR team look even worse?? I mean, at least the Yanks can say they lost to the eventual (and in dominating fashion) AL champs.? Hell, so far in the playoffs, they're the only team that's been able to beat Detroit.

pilferk - you gotta understand that many people just HATE the yankees. they've won alot and they spend more than anyone. it's just natural.

and there's only one champ every year, and then there's everyone else. only one team gets bragging rights.

so to answer your question, the yanks losing doesn't change anything about the red sox season. their season wasn't good, we already knew that. but it would be WORSE if the yanks won. it would be worse for alot of fans.

but they didn't, so many people are happy. and the red sox still have won the title more recenly than the yanks.

[Sober_times]

I hate The Mets, Somebody better beat em.

And its great to see the greatest Chokes Artists in the history of Baseball(thats right greatest, cuz no other team dropped a 3-0 lead in a seven game series in the history of baseball) The Yawkees Lose!!!. Well what can be expected when you have a team comprised of Gay-Rod, The Anit-Christ, Mandy Johnson and Mrs October. Ohh this year may have not been the year of the Sox, but damn its great to see the Yawkees lose.?

If, indeed, you're a Red Sox fan....exactly what does that say about YOUR team?? I mean, from a 6 game lead in first to....finishing behind the Blue Jays?? It seems you guys have more to worry about than what happens to the Yanks in the playoffs...like, maybe making some moves to get BACK to them.

I mean...doesn't bagging on the team that owned you, beat you, and generally ended your season much earlier than you would have liked just make YOUR team look even worse? I mean, at least the Yanks can say they lost to the eventual (and in dominating fashion) AL champs. Hell, so far in the playoffs, they're the only team that's been able to beat Detroit.

Ya well the Yawkees are out of the playoffs, aint it sweet which is the point of this thread, celebrating the Yawkees losing, and boy if theres one thing you can wish for besides another Sox world series, its that the Yawkees lose!!!! God with all these playoff collapses the last 3 years, i hope they keep ole Joe around, maybe he'll lead to another 3-0 lead that collapses on em.

[Allman]

The Red Sox spend an awful lot of money too and got'em nowhere, mmm it did...3rd place 

I can understand people hating the Yankees because of the money but if someone would invest this money in let's say the Tigers or the Pirates those fans would stop complaining.

The lesson's learned from the past years is that money can't buy you a championship, the Mets will find out soon 

[pilferk]

pilferk - you gotta understand that many people just HATE the yankees. they've won alot and they spend more than anyone. it's just natural.

and there's only one champ every year, and then there's everyone else. only one team gets bragging rights.

so to answer your question, the yanks losing doesn't change anything about the red sox season. their season wasn't good, we already knew that. but it would be WORSE if the yanks won. it would be worse for alot of fans.

but they didn't, so many people are happy. and the red sox still have won the title more recenly than the yanks.

Wow, that's sorta twisted....that the Yankees doing well, AFTER your season is over, makes your season worse.  I'm not sure it's possible, all things considered, for the Sox season to be considered worse.  But I do think it's a pretty good indication of things when you have to derive any semblance of satisfaction out of the Yankees early exit, rather than what your team did this year.

And the Sox may have won the title more recently, but they've been the "also ran" team in the AL East for so long the view of the lead dog (well, dogs this year....given the Jays even managed to pull ahead of them) has to be getting old.  And, as of now, it's...what....26-1?  Seems to me the Sox faithful should be more concerned about making it 2, rather than when the Yanks pick up #27.

[pilferk]

Ya well the Yawkees are out of the playoffs, aint it sweet which is the point of this thread, celebrating the Yawkees losing, and boy if theres one thing you can wish for besides another Sox world series, its that the Yawkees lose!!!! God with all these playoff collapses the last 3 years, i hope they keep ole Joe around, maybe he'll lead to another 3-0 lead that collapses on em.

Again, it speaks VOLUMES about the state of your team (and it's historical success) that you've had to rely on cheering for the powerhouse to lose over cheering your team on to win.  I guess if my favorite team had only won it once in 80-something years, I'd have to search out some coping mechanisms too.....

But, again, laughing at the trials and tribulations of a team that finished 12 games in front of you, in your division, and actually MADE the playoffs....what does that say about your mighty Sox?  They were decimated by the mediocre?  Ouch.....

[sandman]

pilferk - you gotta understand that many people just HATE the yankees. they've won alot and they spend more than anyone. it's just natural.

and there's only one champ every year, and then there's everyone else. only one team gets bragging rights.

so to answer your question, the yanks losing doesn't change anything about the red sox season. their season wasn't good, we already knew that. but it would be WORSE if the yanks won. it would be worse for alot of fans.

but they didn't, so many people are happy. and the red sox still have won the title more recenly than the yanks.

Wow, that's sorta twisted....that the Yankees doing well, AFTER your season is over, makes your season worse.? I'm not sure it's possible, all things considered, for the Sox season to be considered worse.? But I do think it's a pretty good indication of things when you have to derive any semblance of satisfaction out of the Yankees early exit, rather than what your team did this year.

And the Sox may have won the title more recently, but they've been the "also ran" team in the AL East for so long the view of the lead dog (well, dogs this year....given the Jays even managed to pull ahead of them) has to be getting old.? And, as of now, it's...what....26-1?? Seems to me the Sox faithful should be more concerned about making it 2, rather than when the Yanks pick up #27.

i didn't say the yanks success (or lack thereof in recent years) makes the sox season worse. it just makes the MLB season worse. it's a kick in the groin for sox fans. so when the yanks lose, it makes sox fans happy.

i think most people feel this way about sports. when you have a great rivalry, you don't want to see that team do well. ever.

and you said it yourself....26-1. you're keeping score.

but in the sports world, it's "what have you done for me lately?". which is why sox fans still have bragging rights over fans of the evil empire. 

[pilferk]

i didn't say the yanks success (or lack thereof in recent years) makes the sox season worse. it just makes the MLB season worse. it's a kick in the groin for sox fans. so when the yanks lose, it makes sox fans happy.

i think most people feel this way about sports. when you have a great rivalry, you don't want to see that team do well. ever.

and you said it yourself....26-1. you're keeping score.

but in the sports world, it's "what have you done for me lately?". which is why sox fans still have bragging rights over fans of the evil empire.?

No, it makes the sox FANS season better or worse.? Again, that's sorta twisted logic.? I feel better about the season, even though we sucked, because the Yanks lost?? That's...I don't know...sorta pitiful (and I mean it literally....I feel pity for fans that have to derive satisfaction from that).? And, as far as sports go, I don't root against a team, or feel suddenly better about the season, becasue a hated rival beats the tar out of me, advances to the playoffs, and loses.? I would argue that most Yankees fans, by the way they talk, don't feel that way either.? I wonder if that's something specific to Boston and Cubbie fans?

(Oh, and on the Yanks "lack of success"...how do you figure?? See, you're buying into the Steinbrenner/typical Yankee fan mindset.? In recent years: 4 AL East crowns, 1 ALCS appearance, 2 ALDS appearances, 1 League MVP (and maybe 2), the highest winning % over those 4 years in baseball....on any other team, that's a stellar stretch of baseball...so I'm not sure I'd say the Yanks lack success.? They just haven't been as successful as they'd hoped they'd be.? You know, back in the mid to late 80's I'd have KILLED for a run like that for the Yanks.? So lets put this all in perspective, really. If you wanna define success that way (winning a WS)....man, Boston's had a LOT of unsuccessful years....)

As for the 26-1 statistic...it's not me keeping score out of any sort of wishing ill of the Sox or the Boston Faithful.? The 26 world championships is a hallmark of Yanks baseball.? The one championship in 80 some odd years was all anyone has heard about, in relation to the Red Sox, for about the last 3 years.....as the ZERO championships was in 50 of the previous 70 seasons.? In addition, it wasn't to illustrate that the Sox are "bad"...I used the statistic to demonstrate that, right now, the Sox and their fans have more to worry about than an early exit by the Yanks in the playoffs.? Like, maybe...finding a way to get back to them next year.? 'cause now they have to worry about trying to compete with the Yanks, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota, AND the Blue Jays for those 3 spots in the post season.

And "what have you done for me lately", actually, leaves the Yanks with a sizeable lead in bragging rights over Boston, if that's the criteria.? We've one 2 more AL East crowns, over the heralded Red Sox....this year by 12 games and 2 places in the standings..which is exactly why, as a Sox fan, I wouldn't be so quick to bag on the Yanks playoff woes. Or to take much satisfaction in their playoff performance.? ?It makes your team look even worse, not better.? We might not have won it all, but we were at least 2 steps closer to another title than you guys were, right?? So what is there to feel better over, exactly?? That the Mets, who actually had more to do with you guys being winless in WS play than the Yanks did of late, might win?? Or that Detroit, who last year lost more games than Boston won might turn things around and win?? After what Boston spends and aquired last year?? Or that Minnesota, the very definition of "small market" made the playoffs and you guys didn't?? ?Sorry, I still just don't get it......whether the Yanks lose in the 1st round in 4 or win the WS in 4...it still sounds like there should be no joy in mudville.

Jeter said it best in his response to Ortiz, I think.? It's interesting that something akin to Oriz's sentiment carries over to the Sox fans..... It's not about Boston vs New York to most of the Yankees and their front office.? Boston is just an obstacle between the Yanks and their true goal. A particulary good obstacle, which is why they get so much attention.? Sometimes I think (and this conversation convinces me even more) that Boston's goal isn't to actually win a WS...it's all about the Yanks.? Man...the "evil empire" has really gotten inside the Sox, and their fans, heads. Wow...

[sandman]

you're a laid back fan, that's all. and you seem like a HUGE baseball fan, so i'm guessing it's due to the fact that the yanks win all the time. following them is relatively stress free.

but i'm surprised that you seem so unfamiliar with the fact that many sports fans root against other teams.

would i be correct in assuming you're not a huge sports fan, and primarily just a fan of baseball?

i work with lots of new yorkers and they all root against each other's team HARDCORE (mets or yankees). that's all i heard all summer.

just a heads up....i'm not a sox fan. i hate the sox. 

[Sober_times]

You know it was an off year for the sox, I dont think thats big news, you've really broken it wide open with that one. The Sox sucked it against everybody in the last 2 months of season, not just the yawks. Towards the last month of the season it wasnt a big achievement to destroy the Red Sox, I being die hard accepted the season was over before the Yawkees Series in mid August. With the injuries we had, the health problems of Ortiz, the Pitching turned horible once Varitek got hurt, and never seemed to get back on track. It was over, I've excepted that the Sox had a bad year. But none of that changes the fact that the Yawkees lost! For now I will go off with what you say, its post-season that matters. And the last time the Sox-Yawkees played eachother in the postseason, the Sox pulled off the greatest acheivement battleing back from 3-0 deficet and beat the yawkees ass, even with Gay-Rod cheating, and went on to sweep the Cardinals, and I cant wait for your reply of counting how many times the sox lost to the yawkees, at least we never got a beating like the yawks took in 04. THIS WAS HISTORY, NO BODY, I MEAN NOBODY HAS EVER CHOKESD LIKE THE YAWKEES DID. I mean thats fucking wonderfull.? We may not be there this year but neither are you.

The YAWKEES LOST, THE YAWKEES LOST, AINT IT SWEEET, THE YAWKEES LOST!?

[GeorgeSteele]

? And, as far as sports go, I don't root against a team, or feel suddenly better about the season, becasue a hated rival beats the tar out of me, advances to the playoffs, and loses.? I would argue that most Yankees fans, by the way they talk, don't feel that way either.?

Here in the NYC outer-boroughs, Yankee fans are desperate to see the Mets go down.  And in 2004, the Yankee fans I know would have traded in the 26 titles to see the Red Sox lose to the Cardinals.

[pilferk]

you're a laid back fan, that's all. and you seem like a HUGE baseball fan, so i'm guessing it's due to the fact that the yanks win all the time. following them is relatively stress free.

but i'm surprised that you seem so unfamiliar with the fact that many sports fans root against other teams.

would i be correct in assuming you're not a huge sports fan, and primarily just a fan of baseball?

i work with lots of new yorkers and they all root against each other's team HARDCORE (mets or yankees). that's all i heard all summer.

just a heads up....i'm not a sox fan. i hate the sox.?

Or, rather, maybe it's because I'm as much a fan of the game as I am the team....

As for being laid back...um...no.  If I were laid back I wouldn't really participate in these types of discussions, would I?

I'm not surprised some other sports fans root against other teams, especially during the regular season when, really, every team is "in it".  I just don't see the point in taking satisfaction from the downfall of a team that crushed "your" team....like Sox fans seem to at the Yankees playoff downfall.  Or taking pleasure in the downfall of a team that outperformed "your" team.  They were better than your team all season, spanked your team head to head, and made the playoffs but.....they "suck" now because they lost?  It just doesn't make sense to me.  If they "suck"...what kind of reflection is that on your team?  From me,

I take some satisfaction, actually, in losing to the best, no matter who they are.  In '04...the Yanks lost to the eventual WS champ..and were the only team to really challenge them in the playoffs.  In '06, they lost to Detroit, the eventual ALCS champ (in dominating fashion) and, so far, have been the only team able to notch a win in the post season against them. 

As for being a fan of other sports, yes, I am.  Primarily College Basketball (HUGE fan, bigger than baseball probably), some NFL (the Giants and the Jets) and some NBA (the Celtics, mostly, but I'm a big Shaq fan...have been since his days at LSU). 

[pilferk]

You know it was an off year for the sox, I dont think thats big news, you've really broken it wide open with that one. The Sox sucked it against everybody in the last 2 months of season, not just the yawks. Towards the last month of the season it wasnt a big achievement to destroy the Red Sox, I being die hard accepted the season was over before the Yawkees Series in mid August. With the injuries we had, the health problems of Ortiz, the Pitching turned horible once Varitek got hurt, and never seemed to get back on track. It was over, I've excepted that the Sox had a bad year. But none of that changes the fact that the Yawkees lost! For now I will go off with what you say, its post-season that matters. And the last time the Sox-Yawkees played eachother in the postseason, the Sox pulled off the greatest acheivement battleing back from 3-0 deficet and beat the yawkees ass, even with Gay-Rod cheating, and went on to sweep the Cardinals, and I cant wait for your reply of counting how many times the sox lost to the yawkees, at least we never got a beating like the yawks took in 04. THIS WAS HISTORY, NO BODY, I MEAN NOBODY HAS EVER CHOKESD LIKE THE YAWKEES DID. I mean thats fucking wonderfull.? We may not be there this year but neither are you.

The YAWKEES LOST, THE YAWKEES LOST, AINT IT SWEEET, THE YAWKEES LOST!?

Wow...that diatribe was just......pitiful.  And I mean it quite literally.  I actually feel pity for Sox fans if thats the way they think...

On injuries:  Lets see...we lost Matsui and Sheffield for just about the entire season.  We lost Cano for a good 6 weeks. Damon was playing on a broken foot. Giambi was a mess with his wrist.  Just about every pitcher was either on the DL or missed multiple starts (except Wang). We lost Mariano freaking Rivera for 2 or 3 weeks (and, FYI, nobody gained significant ground in the division) Did the Sox have it worse?  Sure...AFTER they were already out of contention and 6 or 7 games back.

I didn't say it was the post season that matters.  That was something sandman pointed to, and I expounded upon.  I'd say, in judging a teams success, it's MAKING it to the post season that defines a successful year.  After that, it's all just variations and degrees of success.

We lost in 7 games in '04. We've won, and lost, in 7 games before.  I do love how this one thing seems to define Red Sox fans... and how it's always the fact that the Yanks choked and not that the Sox played magnificently.  For you guys, it's the greatest moment in your franchise history....not because you got to go to the WS, but because you finally managed to beat the Yankees. That's what I find so odd...that, for you guys, it's about how you do against one team.  Again, for Yanks fans, it's all about the obstacles between us and a title...not all about beating Boston.   It was one series 2 years ago.  Who cares?  Since then, you haven't been able to do it again. That was supposed to be the begining of the new "Red Sox Dynasty" (if you listened to, or read, Boston sports media reports).  It was supposed to be the begining of a new era, where Boston finally took the step past NY to dominate the AL

Since then, The Sox have lost 2 more AL league titles, one of them dramatically, one of them dramatically awfully, both after having good sized leads in the league at some point during the season.  They were bounced early in the playoffs last year and didn't even see the post season this year.  I know that, after not winning a WS  for 80 something years straight, it's tough to come back to the present and live in the now after '04 but....honestly...Red Sox fans should have more on their minds than the Yankees losing in the playoffs.  Or what they managed to do 2 years ago.  They shouldn't be thinking about the Yanks (who, by any measure, have been more successful the past 2 years than the Sox have), at all.  They should be wondering how the 2nd biggest payroll in MLB not only MISSES the playoffs, but finishes in 3rd place behind the Blue Jays.  Were I a sox fan, I'd be asking Theo, the "boy genius", some tough questions this off season...which started much earlier than you folks expected it to.  Asking questions about how they let Johnny Damon, who put up stellar numbers for the Yanks, get away from them and replaced him with Coco Crisp?  Asking questions about how they're going to deal with "The Manny situation" (who, FYI, is a heck of a lot more likely to be playing in a new uniform next year than A-rod is).  Asking questions about the lack of any sort of movement at the trade deadline this year.  Asking questions about what the hell they're going to do to cobble together a starting rotation next year AND, if it included Papplebon (an almost sure thing) what the hell they're going to do late in ballgames to close out games next year.  And, most importantly, asking questions about how in the living, blazing hell they're going to win the AL East, or get a wild card spot, away from the Yanks, Tigers, Twins, White Sox or Blue Jays.  Somehow getting some strange satisfaction from the Yanks doing better than the Sox this year isn't going to answer any of those questions.

As for not choking like the Yanks did in '04...need I remind you of "The Boston Massacre"? Or Bucky Dent? Or Bill Buckner? Or "The Boston Massacre II" this year?  The Yanks beat you 5 straight, at Fenway.  They turned a tight division race into the end of the Sox season.  It might not have actually been in the post season, but I'd say it was an equivalent "choke" on the "choking" scale, for sure.  And the Sox have had more than enough things, in their history, to point to that were pretty much the equivalent of the Yanks dropping 4 straight to the Sox in '04.  Maybe not exactly the same thing, but certainly equivalent.

[pilferk]

? And, as far as sports go, I don't root against a team, or feel suddenly better about the season, becasue a hated rival beats the tar out of me, advances to the playoffs, and loses.? I would argue that most Yankees fans, by the way they talk, don't feel that way either.?

Here in the NYC outer-boroughs, Yankee fans are desperate to see the Mets go down.? And in 2004, the Yankee fans I know would have traded in the 26 titles to see the Red Sox lose to the Cardinals.

Huh....again, I just don't see the point.

I'm now rooting for the mets to win the NL, and then, no matter who wins the WS, I'll be pretty happy.  I've never "gotten" the Yankees-Mets thing. I mean, I get the good natured ribbing stuff (sorta like big brother/little brother hazing).  But I don't get the rivalry thing.  They don't even play each other, really, for Gods sake.  And with Randolph now managing the Mets (and doing an amazing job of it), I'd think that would ease some of the tension.

As for '04.....I didn't much care. I was more concerned with why/how the Yankees pitching had utterly collapsed on it's way to losing 4 straight.   I actually half remember thinking I'd like to see the Sox win if for no other reason than so we could stop hearing about the damn "curse"....and so we could say that, at least, the Yanks had lost to the eventual champ.  Besides, it had been 80-something years.  You almost had to feel bad for 'em....

[GeorgeSteele]

? And, as far as sports go, I don't root against a team, or feel suddenly better about the season, becasue a hated rival beats the tar out of me, advances to the playoffs, and loses.? I would argue that most Yankees fans, by the way they talk, don't feel that way either.?

Here in the NYC outer-boroughs, Yankee fans are desperate to see the Mets go down.? And in 2004, the Yankee fans I know would have traded in the 26 titles to see the Red Sox lose to the Cardinals.

Huh....again, I just don't see the point.

I'm now rooting for the mets to win the NL, and then, no matter who wins the WS, I'll be pretty happy.? I've never "gotten" the Yankees-Mets thing. I mean, I get the good natured ribbing stuff (sorta like big brother/little brother hazing).? But I don't get the rivalry thing.? They don't even play each other, really, for Gods sake.? And with Randolph now managing the Mets (and doing an amazing job of it), I'd think that would ease some of the tension.

As for '04.....I didn't much care. I was more concerned with why/how the Yankees pitching had utterly collapsed on it's way to losing 4 straight.? ?I actually half remember thinking I'd like to see the Sox win if for no other reason than so we could stop hearing about the damn "curse"....and so we could say that, at least, the Yanks had lost to the eventual champ.? Besides, it had been 80-something years.? You almost had to feel bad for 'em....

I don't really see the point either, but your comment that most Yankee fans don't enjoy seeing other teams lose, whether its the Mets or Red Sox, doesn't jive with what I've seen and experienced.   

Quick off-topic - Mets' season rests in the hands of John Maine and Oliver Perez (if there's a Game 7).  God help us.

[pilferk]

I don't really see the point either, but your comment that most Yankee fans don't enjoy seeing other teams lose, whether its the Mets or Red Sox, doesn't jive with what I've seen and experienced.? ?

Quick off-topic - Mets' season rests in the hands of John Maine and Oliver Perez (if there's a Game 7).? God help us.

Again, from the Yanks fans I talk to, or converse with online, I just don't see that kind of thought process.  Maybe it's different with some of the home grown rabid fan base in the NYC boroughs.....but the fans I communicate with seem more intent on what the Yanks do (sometimes in relation to what their closest competition does) over what other teams might be doing.  We might root against the Sox (or Detroit or the Twins, etc) during a close division race so we can gain a game but I think that's an entirely different animal than what we're discussing in this thread.  And as for the Mets...I just never hear anyone talk much about them except in relation to how great another subway series would be or would have been this year.

[sandman]

pilferk - you keep saying you "feel pity" for sox fans. that's ridiculous. and if you truly do, than you need to feel pity for ALL fans of every team. cause i would guess the majority of sports fans root for other teams to fail at some point throughout the season. i work in NY with several yanks fans - they are as passionate as anyone. and they HATE the sox and the mets.

I respect your take and have many friends that feel the way you do about sports. but it just blows my mind that this concept could seem so foreign to anyone, and that you don?t have an understanding for people that feel that way.

question for you....do you buy in to the rivalry thing at all? basically, all things being equal, does a loss to boston hurt more than a loss to baltimore?

every yank fan i know would say "yes".

[pilferk]

pilferk - you keep saying you "feel pity" for sox fans. that's ridiculous. and if you truly do, than you need to feel pity for ALL fans of every team. cause i would guess the majority of sports fans root for other teams to fail at some point throughout the season. i work in NY with several yanks fans - they are as passionate as anyone. and they HATE the sox and the mets.

I respect your take and have many friends that feel the way you do about sports. but it just blows my mind that this concept could seem so foreign to anyone, and that you don?t have an understanding for people that feel that way.

question for you....do you buy in to the rivalry thing at all? basically, all things being equal, does a loss to boston hurt more than a loss to baltimore?

every yank fan i know would say "yes".

You're talking a different animal, now.? Sure, I get the rivalry thing.? When they're playing each other. Or when they're competing against each other for a division title or wild card spot. Or, hell, even if they're both in an ALDS against different teams and might face each other in the ALCS. I get it when the wins/losses actually have MEANING to "your" team.? But do I care, when the Yanks are 10 games up on Boston, if Boston loses to Toronto any more than I care if Baltimore loses to Texas? Nope.? Nor do I really care if Boston beats Baltimore, if the Yanks have run away with things but have lost that night, any more than I care if Toronto beats Oakland.

And I feel pity for any sports fan that has to take satisfaction from another teams failure rather than his own teams success.? ?I think it's sorta sad if you have to find your "rah rahs" in that, rather than your own teams accomplishments.? I certainly can see Boston fans dislike for the Yankees overall, especially because of the history and competition between the teams...what I don't get is getting all excited over their exit from the play offs.? Why care?? It has no effect on your team, or how lousy they did, or anything else pertaining to the team you root for.? It seems...like I said...sorta sad.  To me it just says "Ya-Hoo...we got obliterated by the 2nd worst team in the playoffs!! I wish they'd lost quicker so maybe we could say we got obliterated by the WORST team in the playoffs!!"

See where I'm going?

[sandman]

i totally see what you're saying. i just don't know why you think this is NOT a widespread feeling among most fans. including many (if not most) yankee fans.

also, i get NO satisfaction by saying my team lost to the eventual champion. i actually think that contradicts your argument in a way.

but more importantly, bragging rights is part of what makes sports fun. when the Cowboys lose, i'm gonna call my loser cowboy-fan friends and rub it in their faces (and post in here to laugh at D).

and when the eagles give away a game to the giants, i know i'm gonna hear it from everyone i work with since i'm the "philly guy".

so i think cheering AGAINST teams isn't pitiful at all. it's fun.

[pilferk]

i totally see what you're saying. i just don't know why you think this is NOT a widespread feeling among most fans. including many (if not most) yankee fans.

also, i get NO satisfaction by saying my team lost to the eventual champion. i actually think that contradicts your argument in a way.

but more importantly, bragging rights is part of what makes sports fun. when the Cowboys lose, i'm gonna call my loser cowboy-fan friends and rub it in their faces (and post in here to laugh at D).

and when the eagles give away a game to the giants, i know i'm gonna hear it from everyone i work with since i'm the "philly guy".

so i think cheering AGAINST teams isn't pitiful at all. it's fun.

There is a fundamental difference between good natured ribbing of your friends and rooting against a team who's sucess or failure has no influence on your teams current state.  Regular season football is a bad example.....because everyone is pretty much competing with everyone for those playoff spots.  You HAVE to root for other teams to lose so  you can get in......see, I understand that.  But, when your season is over......and the "other" teams winning or losing doesn't effect you.... 

And it's not that I don't think it's widespread to do so. It may be.? I don't, from my conversations and interactions, find it to be the majority of MOST teams fans.?In fact, I find it to be most prevalent in Boston fans....which is what I find so remarkable about this conversation.? ?I don't, for example, find that Bills fans, at the end of the season, root against the Giants.? I don't find that most Giants fans root against Dallas in the post season if the Giants are sitting at home.? I don't find most UCONN fans root against Duke or Tennessee (for the ladies) once UCONN's season is over.? I don't find that Celtics fans root against the Lakers when the Leprechauns have crawled back under the floor.? It just makes no sense to me to do it and, from what I hear from a goon number of other sports fans...that's not an uncommon viewpoint.

[sandman]

but to be able to give your friends some good natured ribbing, you need their teams to lose. therefore, it seems logical to me to root against them.

and you've openly criticized boston fans, as most new yorkers do. so they must annoy you, which is why i don't understand why you wouldn't root against the sox. again, just in light of the friendly ribbing between fans.

if i had a dollar for every "Red Sux" shirt i've seen in NY, i'd retire.

another reason i root against teams is my dislike for certain players. for example, i do not like barry bonds (for obvious reasons). and in 2002, i wanted the angels to win so badly that i got into that series more than any other in recent history. and it was 100% because i didn't like bonds and didn't want him to be part of a winning team.

another point that i think plays into this - i usually enjoy sports more when i have a rooting interest.

[pilferk]

but to be able to give your friends some good natured ribbing, you need their teams to lose. therefore, it seems logical to me to root against them.

and you've openly criticized boston fans, as most new yorkers do. so they must annoy you, which is why i don't understand why you wouldn't root against the sox. again, just in light of the friendly ribbing between fans.

if i had a dollar for every "Red Sux" shirt i've seen in NY, i'd retire.

another reason i root against teams is my dislike for certain players. for example, i do not like barry bonds (for obvious reasons). and in 2002, i wanted the angels to win so badly that i got into that series more than any other in recent history. and it was 100% because i didn't like bonds and didn't want him to be part of a winning team.

another point that i think plays into this - i usually enjoy sports more when i have a rooting interest.

I think I've made my point...we're just circling the same set of subjects now..dontcha think?

Or maybe I haven't...so here's the last I'll say on the subject.

Picture it.  Philly is 12 and 2, going to the playoffs.  Dallas is 2 and 12, and not going any further than the next two games.  You still calling those Dallas friends this weekend when they lose and are 2 and 13?  Not me.  Not worth it.  They're out of it and on the sidelines for the remainder of the year.

Philly makes it to the Big Game.  You lose by 2 TDS, but it's a respectable game (Say 35-21).  Your Dallas friends gonna call and brag and say you suck?  Not me.  Not worth it.  'Cause the Cowboys have been out basically since week 7 when they were 1 and 6.

Is that more clear.

Boston fans don't annoy me, as a whole. Being from Connecticut, there's a pretty large contingent of them around.  And I haven't "openly criticized" them.  I've said I don't understand, when it has no bearing on the Sox, why they take such great pleasure in the Yanks losing to the Tigers.  When they have a whole lot more on their plate to discuss and think about before next season, especially. When their team had nothing to do with the Yanks demise, whatsoever.  And when their team has nothing to gain from that loss, other than to be made to look even worse than they did.  That's not bagging on the Boston fans, who I largely respect, it's bagging on this particular, and relatively prevalent from what I see and hear, attitude.  It just makes no sense to me.

I get the "adopt a team for a game (or a series)" thing, too.  That is different than what we're talking about in this thread, largely, too.  If it comes down to St Louis and Detroit, I'll adopt a team (probably Detroit) and root for them.  But I won't take particular pleasure, once the games are over, in going around bagging on the St. Louis Cardinals  if they lose.....

[Sober_times]

In hated rivalry in all sports, most fans cheer for the oppiste teams demise . I hate the fucking yawks and thats a product of spending my very early childhood at Fenway Park and growing up in the Boston area, it sort of comes with the territory. And i've seen quite the oppisite from fans in New York, my cousins in paticular who are ravid yawks fans and also celebrate the Sox demise. Due to being in a military family im far from it now but have been back several times. I now reside in Texas where I cant find a single Cowboy fan that doesnt hate the redskins and will laugh at redskin fans even if dallas has a shitty year. When you hate a team, you hate a team. Its great to see them lose. And its so fucking sweet the Yawkees lost! Though I see your point, that you dont do it, accept the fact that some fans do. 

[pilferk]

In hated rivalry in all sports, most fans cheer for the oppiste teams demise . I hate the fucking yawks and thats a product of spending my very early childhood at Fenway Park and growing up in the Boston area, it sort of comes with the territory. And i've seen quite the oppisite from fans in New York, my cousins in paticular who are ravid yawks fans and also celebrate the Sox demise. Due to being in a military family im far from it now but have been back several times. I now reside in Texas where I cant find a single Cowboy fan that doesnt hate the redskins and will laugh at redskin fans even if dallas has a shitty year. When you hate a team, you hate a team. Its great to see them lose. And its so fucking sweet the Yawkees lost! Though I see your point, that you dont do it, accept the fact that some fans do.?

Oh, I accept it...it just doesn't make sense to me.? But I do admit I laugh at fans that do it.? Because in doing it you've just said "Your team sucks but mine sucks more"...and don't even know it.

Edit: I was typing quickly last night and should have been a bit more specific.  I'm not really laughing at the fans, really...I'm laughing at the sentiment they're espousing.  Just wanted to make that clear.

[Sober_times]

Not at all is it saying the Yawkees had a shitty year, The Yawks had a good year, ya I've accepted it. All its doing is celebrating that the Yawkees lost! Ya the Red Sox had a shitty year, ya we've accepted that we have alot of work to do in the off-season. But it still does not stop the celebration of the Yawkees losing. Its dissappointing when the sox have a bad year, it sux. And it happens, alot. But that being said when you have a team you hate its great to seem them not finish out on top of the world.

[sandman]

In hated rivalry in all sports, most fans cheer for the oppiste teams demise . I hate the fucking yawks and thats a product of spending my very early childhood at Fenway Park and growing up in the Boston area, it sort of comes with the territory. And i've seen quite the oppisite from fans in New York, my cousins in paticular who are ravid yawks fans and also celebrate the Sox demise. Due to being in a military family im far from it now but have been back several times. I now reside in Texas where I cant find a single Cowboy fan that doesnt hate the redskins and will laugh at redskin fans even if dallas has a shitty year. When you hate a team, you hate a team. Its great to see them lose. And its so fucking sweet the Yawkees lost! Though I see your point, that you dont do it, accept the fact that some fans do.?

Oh, I accept it...it just doesn't make sense to me.? But I do admit I laugh at fans that do it.? Because in doing it you've just said "Your team sucks but mine sucks more"...and don't even know it.

Edit: I was typing quickly last night and should have been a bit more specific.? I'm not really laughing at the fans, really...I'm laughing at the sentiment they're espousing.? Just wanted to make that clear.

ok, that was the point i was making. cause obviously you were trying to insult boston fans by saying you "pity" them. and my point was just that it is normal and VERY common.

two other things....in your scenario about eagles fans getting laughed at by cowboy fans for a playoff loss when the cowboys are 3-13. you better fuckin believe they will!!! especially when the eagles were at home and favored to win (as in 2003 and 2004). as a philly sports fan, i've suffered much torment. 

which leads me to my second point....it's NOT about saying "your team sucks". you've made that reference a number of times. obviously the yanks are a pretty good team.

but sports are all about championships. so there's one winner, and then there's everyone else.

[pilferk]

ok, that was the point i was making. cause obviously you were trying to insult boston fans by saying you "pity" them. and my point was just that it is normal and VERY common.

two other things....in your scenario about eagles fans getting laughed at by cowboy fans for a playoff loss when the cowboys are 3-13. you better fuckin believe they will!!! especially when the eagles were at home and favored to win (as in 2003 and 2004). as a philly sports fan, i've suffered much torment.?

which leads me to my second point....it's NOT about saying "your team sucks". you've made that reference a number of times. obviously the yanks are a pretty good team.

but sports are all about championships. so there's one winner, and then there's everyone else.

Just a couple of comments:? I wasn't trying to insult Boston fans who do this kind of thing, at all, by saying I pity them.? I was simply telling you how I feel.? I do feel pity for them if that's the best way for them to get their "rah rah's".  I, quite literally, feel sorry for them.

The rest I've addressed pretty much ad nauseum.? You might not THINK it's saying "your team sucks" but that's what it's doing...and when you're team is worse off......well, I think I've laid out the logical progression on that one.

And sports are all about championships?? Wow.....I'm not even going to open that can of worms....I know it's a popular perception in today's fandom but....you know what, I'm just gonna leave that one alone.

[sandman]

ok, that was the point i was making. cause obviously you were trying to insult boston fans by saying you "pity" them. and my point was just that it is normal and VERY common.

two other things....in your scenario about eagles fans getting laughed at by cowboy fans for a playoff loss when the cowboys are 3-13. you better fuckin believe they will!!! especially when the eagles were at home and favored to win (as in 2003 and 2004). as a philly sports fan, i've suffered much torment.?

which leads me to my second point....it's NOT about saying "your team sucks". you've made that reference a number of times. obviously the yanks are a pretty good team.

but sports are all about championships. so there's one winner, and then there's everyone else.

Just a couple of comments:? I wasn't trying to insult Boston fans who do this kind of thing, at all, by saying I pity them.? I was simply telling you how I feel.? I do feel pity for them if that's the best way for them to get their "rah rah's".

The rest I've addressed pretty much ad nauseum.? You might not THINK it's saying "your team sucks" but that's what it's doing...and when you're team is worse off......well, I think I've laid out the logical progression on that one.

And sports are all about championships?? Wow.....I'm not even going to open that can of worms....I know it's a popular perception in today's fandom but....you know what, I'm just gonna leave that one alone.

so you feel pity for ALL fans (including yanks fans).

you obviously don't understand bragging rights and ribbing your friends. i know what i'm saying when i mock friends' teams.

You can disagree that sports are all about championships - I admit that point is VERY arguable. But in light of bragging rights and laughing at your friends (again, which you don?t partake in and don?t understand), it truly is all about championships.

And I know many of the greatest athletes of our day would agree with this point. Just ask Dan Marino ? he?d trade all the ?good? dolphin years (and his stats) for one GREAT dolphin year which included a SB title. He?s the best QB to ever play the game, yet he?s known more for what he did not accomplish. 

[pilferk]

so you feel pity for ALL fans (including yanks fans).

you obviously don't understand bragging rights and ribbing your friends. i know what i'm saying when i mock friends' teams.

You can disagree that sports are all about championships - I admit that point is VERY arguable. But in light of bragging rights and laughing at your friends (again, which you don?t partake in and don?t understand), it truly is all about championships.

And I know many of the greatest athletes of our day would agree with this point. Just ask Dan Marino ? he?d trade all the ?good? dolphin years (and his stats) for one GREAT dolphin year which included a SB title. He?s the best QB to ever play the game, yet he?s known more for what he did not accomplish.?

I feel pity for all fans who get their "rah rahs" out of bagging on a team that has done much better than their team, yes.? Especially when that teams success or failure, at this point, has nothing to do with the sucess of failure of your own team.? As I've said, it's pointless.? I don't see it in my day to day interactions with MOST fans, but when I do see it MUCH more with 2 particular teams fans (in baseball)...the Red Sox fans (with the Yanks) and the Cubs fans (with the White Sox, of all teams).? Though it bears noting that the OP was neither.

It's not that I don't "understand bragging rights and ribbing on my friends".? I do.? And I engage in in when, to my mind, it's fun/useful/interesting to do it.? The scenario we're discussing here, to me, in none of those.? In the scenario we're discussing, actually, you're pretty much, unknowingly, ripping on yourself.

You know what you THINK you're saying.? That's my point.? The message you're actually conveying is very different than the point you're trying to make.? That's why I tend to laugh (and wince, just a little bit).?

Again, I'm not gonna get into the why's, hows, and whatfors around sport being all about championships.? ?It's even more of a hotbutton issue and would take a lot more time to argue/discuss as well as the issue deserves.? I'm just not up for it.? Suffice to say, my viewpoint differs with much of fandom on this one.? It's more of a sports purist view....

[Communist China]

The problem with the Yankees is that their fans and management are arrogant beyond belief. They let admitted roiders continue to shoot up on their team (Giambi) and have an idea of being "superior" to the rest of the league. After they won the first game of the ALDS every Yankee fan in the world gave themselves the World Series Championship. They acted like that was all they had to do with such arrogance that I'm surprised that everyone wasn't rooting for the Tigers.

[pilferk]

The problem with the Yankees is that their fans and management are arrogant beyond belief. They let admitted roiders continue to shoot up on their team (Giambi) and have an idea of being "superior" to the rest of the league. After they won the first game of the ALDS every Yankee fan in the world gave themselves the World Series Championship. They acted like that was all they had to do with such arrogance that I'm surprised that everyone wasn't rooting for the Tigers.

Arrogant, or confident?  I mean, most professional athletes have a certain swagger to them.....I think the issue is that those that dislike the Yankees project that dislike on the Yankees actions...

As for Giambi...the guy is not continuing to shoot up on their team.  He's not juicing, and, given his admission, he's a prime target for drug testing.

As for being superior to the rest of the league..well, they were this year, in the regular season...at least in THEIR league (the AL).

As far as every Yanks fan crowning them after game one of the ALDS...well, that's not true.  'Cause this one didn't, and last time I checked, I'm still on planet earth.

And the YANKEES didn't act arrogant after the win.  Just look at their comments about how it was only one game....

[sandman]

the yankees had a great team this year. i'd put them in the top 3, maybe top 2 teams in the league. great, great team.

but they lost and i love it!! they got nothing to show for it. 

[sandman]

very interesting baseball-related poll just conducted....

40% of fans said the yankees were the team they enjoy rooting against the most. 


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061020/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_baseball_ap_poll_3


Half of baseball fans are rooting against Barry Bonds in his bid to break Hank Aaron's career home run record. That said, it's getting tough to find anyone rooting for the sport at all these days.

An AP-AOL Sports poll released Thursday shows that only one-third of Americans call themselves fans of professional baseball ? about the level of support for the last decade, but lower than 1990.

And they see another problem competing with steroids: stratospheric salaries.

Brandon Inge of the        World Series-bound        Detroit Tigers was surprised to hear that only 32 percent of Americans consider themselves fans.

"That sounds a little low to me," the third baseman said. "It's America's pastime."

So is rooting against Bonds, it appears. The poll showed 48 percent of fans want the San Francisco star to fall short of Aaron's mark; 33 percent would like Bonds to break it and another 16 percent said they didn't care.

Bonds has hit 734 homers and is closing in on Aaron's total of 755. Shadowed by steroid allegations and slowed by injuries, Bonds homered 26 times this season.

"It saddens me," said Bonds' agent, Jeff Borris. "I think true baseball fans who know and understand everything Barry has done to get to this point should be pulling for him.

"They should feel fortunate that they'll have the opportunity to see him break probably the most hallowed record in sports," he said.

Tigers pitcher Jamie Walker understood the public's view of Bonds.

"That sounds about right. People have their opinions. If they're singling out Barry Bonds, they could look at a lot of guys over the last 15 years. Nobody wants to see some old records get broken, but they didn't do steroid testing back then," he said.

Young adults, age 18 to 29, were more likely than those 40 and over to want Bonds to break the record. White fans rooted against Bonds more than minorities, and fans who think Major League Baseball is not doing enough about steroids were more likely to hope Bonds comes up short.

Alex Bast, a 24-year-old fan wearing a        St. Louis Cardinals jersey and Tigers hat at Busch Stadium during the NL championship series, wants Bonds to fall shy.

"I personally hope he doesn't break the record," he said. "I just think that there's kind of too much of a cloud of uncertainty about him and the steroid issue, that it would be good for baseball if he didn't break it to kind of keep that number sacred."

Back in the 1940s and 1950s, when Babe Ruth still held the single-season and career homer records, there was no doubt that baseball was the No. 1 sport in America. Those numbers have eroded, too.

According to the poll, more Americans 35 years and older than under 35 considered themselves baseball fans. Whites were more likely than minorities to put themselves in that category.

Yet overall, about two-thirds of Americans did not regard themselves as fans.

"There's so many sports on the menu now,"        New York Mets general manager Omar Minaya said. "You ask 10, 20, 30 years ago, it was a different menu. There's other sports out there now, so I can fully understand. People like doing other things.

"That being said, I still think baseball has never been more popular," he said. "And I say that because look at the attendance."

MLB games this season drew more than 75 million people for the first time.

"The interest is there, it's just I think there's so many other distractions and interests today for kids, for children," Cardinals general manager Walt Jocketty. "Kids probably don't have the same interest that we did when we were kids because there's more alternatives."

Many others found something else troubling ? salaries. Major league players made an average of nearly $3 million this season.

Among all Americans, 28 percent said salaries were the top problem in baseball, 21 percent said it was the high cost of attending games and 19 percent said it was players using steroids and performance-enhancing drugs.

That's a change from an AP-AOL Sports poll taken in April 2005, when 27 percent picked banned substances as baseball's No. 1 problem.

Among fans, salaries, the cost of attending games and steroids were in close competition as the top problem.

Those over 35 years old and whites were more likely than younger adults and minorities to say players made too money.

The survey found 58 percent of fans said they cared "a lot" whether players were using steroids and performance-enhancing drugs ? that's slightly lower than in AP-AOL Sports polls taken in April 2005 and April 2006.

Fans who follow baseball closely were more likely to care a lot. And 51 percent of fans overall say MLB isn't doing enough about banned drugs.

"I think that Major League Baseball should do more about steroid use, as far as making a statement," said Cardinals fan Steve Subick of Mount Olive, Ill. "Baseball should make a stand on steroid use, so they're making it look like they're trying harder to make a difference."

Inge, however, took issue with the fans' concern.

"They're misinformed because there is no steroid issue in baseball anymore," the Tigers player said.

About two-thirds of fans felt tougher penalties for banned substances did not affect the quality of play this season.

Among other findings:

? The  New York Yankees were the team that most fans rooted for, 14 percent, followed by the Atlanta Braves, 10 percent and  Boston Red Sox, 9 percent. The Yankees also were the team fans most liked to root against, 40 percent, with Boston way back at 7 percent.

? 79 percent of fans felt the quality of umpiring was good or excellent. Only 19 percent rated it fair or poor.

? 75 percent of fans said postseason games start at the right time, 19 percent said they were on too late. And while most fans, 73 percent, said they would stay up late to watch the World Series, only 38 percent of those with school-aged children said they'd let their children stay awake past their bedtimes.

The AP-AOL Sports poll of 2,002 adults, including 774 baseball fans, was conducted by telephone Oct. 10-12 and Oct. 16-18 by Ipsos. The poll has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 2 percentage points for all adults, 3.5 percentage points for baseball fans.

[pilferk]

What surprises me more, I guess, is that they are also the most popular team....

[Cornell]

What surprises me more, I guess, is that they are also the most popular team....

that's true, but people always like seeing the one at the top brought down.  Hell, look at all the USA bashing that goes on in every "political" topic in the jungle.    If something is said negative about any other country, the shit would hit the fan. 

I'm an American and a Yankee fan so I need thick skin. 

[Communist China]

What surprises me more, I guess, is that they are also the most popular team....

that's true, but people always like seeing the one at the top brought down.? Hell, look at all the USA bashing that goes on in every "political" topic in the jungle.? ? If something is said negative about any other country, the shit would hit the fan.?

I'm an American and a Yankee fan so I need thick skin.?

You should donate some of that thick skin to A-Rod.