NJ court stops short of gay marriage OK

[Axl4Prez2004]

Mainline, wow, I don't know what to say after your posts. ?Okay, here goes, I'll give it a shot. ?First off I disagree with just about everything you say...except when it comes to this portion of your post: ?Take it from the majority of Americans (i.e. most of the apple bunch) who are against gay marriage. ?Yes, for a country that on paper prides itself on freedom, independence, and liberty, we sure don't show it on this issue. ?Sadly, the majority of this country is against legalizing gay marriage.

On a positive note though, I do believe you'll see in the coming years more court decisions giving gay couples the same rights under the law that straight couples have. ?It's a progression that's inevitable. ?While most folks oppose using the term marriage, most Americans are in favor of allowing gay unions the same rights as straight couples. ?

Mainline, what do you think of my lesbian co-worker, her partner, and their 2 beautiful children? ?Is it right she was denied the right to be a parent? ?Is it right she had to move to a different state to be recognized as the parent she is? ?Hell, my dad's legally my father, and he left when I was a kid. ?I think alot of folks here might be able to tell you that just because you're straight, you're not necessarily a great parent.

Mainline, c'mon. ?Gay people exist. ?Relax, they aren't after you or your family. ?
 

BTW, I tried posting, but Hanna Hat's post came up before mine.  Hanna Hat is 100% right on this one.  I couldn't have said it better myself!    

[mainline]

Mainline, wow, I don't know what to say after your posts. ?Okay, here goes, I'll give it a shot. ?First off I disagree with just about everything you say...except when it comes to this portion of your post: ?Take it from the majority of Americans (i.e. most of the apple bunch) who are against gay marriage. ?Yes, for a country that on paper prides itself on freedom, independence, and liberty, we sure don't show it on this issue. ?Sadly, the majority of this country is against legalizing gay marriage.

Along with freedom, independence, and liberty, some of us (well most of us) also believe in morality and are religious. I know how much you secularists wish those two words would go away.

On a positive note though, I do believe you'll see in the coming years more court decisions giving gay couples the same rights under the law that straight couples have. ?It's a progression that's inevitable. ?While most folks oppose using the term marriage, most Americans are in favor of allowing gay unions the same rights as straight couples.

?

I'll agree with you there.? Sooner or later, some court will overstep its bounds (yet again) and trump the will of the people.? I'll also agree about gay "unions" and rights.? Marriage aside, I'm not looking to deny gay partners certain rights.

Mainline, what do you think of my lesbian co-worker, her partner, and their 2 beautiful children? ?Is it right she was denied the right to be a parent? ?Is it right she had to move to a different state to be recognized as the parent she is? ?Hell, my dad's legally my father, and he left when I was a kid. ?I think alot of folks here might be able to tell you that just because you're straight, you're not necessarily a great parent.

I'm conflicted on that one.? I can sympathize and I wouldn't necessarily want to deny either of them parental rights.? But I'll never think two men or two women raising children is an inherently good thing.? It may be the best thing possible sometimes, but it isn't what I'd consider optimum.

Mainline, c'mon. ?Gay people exist. ?Relax, they aren't after you or your family. ?

I've got 3 people in my family who are gay.? Thanks for the info though....

[mainline]

Funny, I always thoght marriage was about LOVE, not "perpetuating the species".? Sorry dude, but its pretty likely that the love a man and a woman has is just as great as the love two girls or two guys might have for each other.

?

It's about both.  At least it should be....

Also, by your logic single parents are "inferior" b/c they can't offer what the opposite sex can.

Nope.  I mentioned this.  They can adopt and offer what a gay couple can't - being raised by a father and a mother.  (I realize that is meaningless to you.)

As for marriage being a "symbol", then the 50% of marriages ending in divorce in this country isn't saying much for "human society" is it?? The days of the traditional family have long since passed my friend.? 50% of them end in divorce, people today are staying single for a lot longer then normal, people of different races are getting married (are you against that "non traditional" occurence as well???) and homosexuality is becoming more and more accepted.

I'm aware of the statistics.  It's definitely a sad thing.  But the failure of so many traditioal marriages doesn't automatically make gay marriages OK.  You don't add one bad thing to another.  You seem to think the end of traditional marriage, as we've known it, would be a good thing.  Well, it's not.  Neither is people staying single longer.  As for inter-racial marriage, no, I'm not against it.  Oh, but that's right, us conservative/traditional/religious types are really closet racists at heart who sneak out at night and beat up the first gay or minority we see......

[Axl4Prez2004]

Mainline, before I go to bed, here are some real quotes.  The first 2 are from the same man.  I'll be back tomorrow afternoon to see if you got the answer!  (I felt these were appropriate for this thread because it involves taking one's personal, religious belief and forcing it down the throats of the entire nation)

"State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."

and...

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

and who said this:
   "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature ... [In] the formation of the American governments ... it will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of heaven ... These governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."

the 2nd man also wrote this, "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"


Okay, I can't wait!  The first 2 were Thomas Jefferson, and the second 2 were John Adams.
Good night.   

[mainline]

Mainline, before I go to bed, here are some real quotes.? The first 2 are from the same man.? I'll be back tomorrow afternoon to see if you got the answer!? (I felt these were appropriate for this thread because it involves taking one's personal, religious belief and forcing it down the throats of the entire nation)

"State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."

and...

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

and who said this:
? ?"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature ... [In] the formation of the American governments ... it will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of heaven ... These governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."

the 2nd man also wrote this, "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"


Okay, I can't wait!? The first 2 were Thomas Jefferson, and the second 2 were John Adams.
Good night.? ?

I'm aware of comments regarding religion many of the founding fathers made.  (Consider much of the religion they had been familiar with....abuses by the Church of England, the history of the Inquisition, etc.)   They said a lot of things at various times in their lives.  Often a view they held at one point contradicted with one they held at another.  I've noticed that you secularists manage to only pick out the ones that appear against organized religion.

Nobody is forcing their beliefs down your throat.  Bottom line, the majority of this nation - "under God" - is religious.  Always has been.  Therefore, certain things have more or less been the rule or what is commonly accepted.  It's the small, outspoken, shrill minority who are trying to change any number of things by forcing their will down the thoats of everyone else. 

[SLCPUNK]

The relationship between two men or two women should not be recognized the same way (let alone equal) as the marriage between a man and a woman because it is inherently inferior.

You might as well get it out in the open and say blacks are inferior too while you are at it. Why beat around the bush?

[mainline]

The relationship between two men or two women should not be recognized the same way (let alone equal) as the marriage between a man and a woman because it is inherently inferior.

You might as well get it out in the open and say blacks are inferior too while you are at it. Why beat around the bush?

Read what I said a few posts up genius....

[SLCPUNK]

The relationship between two men or two women should not be recognized the same way (let alone equal) as the marriage between a man and a woman because it is inherently inferior.

You might as well get it out in the open and say blacks are inferior too while you are at it. Why beat around the bush?

Read what I said a few posts up genius....

LOL............so.

[The Dog]

Mainline, wow, I don't know what to say after your posts.  Okay, here goes, I'll give it a shot.  First off I disagree with just about everything you say...except when it comes to this portion of your post:  Take it from the majority of Americans (i.e. most of the apple bunch) who are against gay marriage.  Yes, for a country that on paper prides itself on freedom, independence, and liberty, we sure don't show it on this issue.  Sadly, the majority of this country is against legalizing gay marriage.

Along with freedom, independence, and liberty, some of us (well most of us) also believe in morality and are religious. I know how much you secularists wish those two words would go away.

So now democrats aren't moral or religious?? hahhaha Thats rich.

Lets talk morality shall we.....Abramhoff and all the politicians he bought - moral much?  Blatantly racist republican ads agasinst Harold Ford, sexually explicit emails to minors, grosslly misleading the american public on why we needed to go to war vs. iraq....I could go on, but if you just turn on the news you'll likely get filled in on the rest of it.

[The Dog]

Funny, I always thoght marriage was about LOVE, not "perpetuating the species".  Sorry dude, but its pretty likely that the love a man and a woman has is just as great as the love two girls or two guys might have for each other.

 

It's about both.  At least it should be....

Also, by your logic single parents are "inferior" b/c they can't offer what the opposite sex can.

Nope.  I mentioned this.  They can adopt and offer what a gay couple can't - being raised by a father and a mother.  (I realize that is meaningless to you.)

perhaps i wasn't clear....you are saying by a mother AND a father...I said SINGLE (that means one) parent.  So if a child is only being raised by either a mother OR a father, are they getting an "inferior" upbringing???

and why do you think "being raised by a father and a mother" is meaningless to me?  Lets try to keep the assumptions to a minimum ok?  You don't sound very intelligent when you make then and you couldn't be more wrong.

and as for marriage SHOULD be about both love and procreation, tell that to all the people who adopt or simply can't (or choose not to) have kids.  So if i get married and don't have kids my marriage is "inferior" to someone else who has kids and is a shitty parent to them??  maybe procreation to YOU is part of marriage, but I can't recall any wedding I've ever been to where they talked about having kids as being part of a good marriage.  it was all about love, respect and happiness.  As far as i'm concerned those attributes are equal opportunity.

[mainline]

Funny, I always thoght marriage was about LOVE, not "perpetuating the species".? Sorry dude, but its pretty likely that the love a man and a woman has is just as great as the love two girls or two guys might have for each other.

?

It's about both.? At least it should be....

Also, by your logic single parents are "inferior" b/c they can't offer what the opposite sex can.

Nope.? I mentioned this.? They can adopt and offer what a gay couple can't - being raised by a father and a mother.? (I realize that is meaningless to you.)

perhaps i wasn't clear....you are saying by a mother AND a father...I said SINGLE (that means one) parent.? So if a child is only being raised by either a mother OR a father, are they getting an "inferior" upbringing???

and why do you think "being raised by a father and a mother" is meaningless to me?? Lets try to keep the assumptions to a minimum ok?? You don't sound very intelligent when you make then and you couldn't be more wrong.

and as for marriage SHOULD be about both love and procreation, tell that to all the people who adopt or simply can't (or choose not to) have kids.? So if i get married and don't have kids my marriage is "inferior" to someone else who has kids and is a shitty parent to them??? maybe procreation to YOU is part of marriage, but I can't recall any wedding I've ever been to where they talked about having kids as being part of a good marriage.? it was all about love, respect and happiness.? As far as i'm concerned those attributes are equal opportunity.

Learn how to use the "quote" function, then get back to me. 

[jazjme]

mainline I'm gonna ask you some thing, when do you wanna get together, and have a fight, like a man to man fight where I kick your ass.


You are probably the most narrow minded bigoted poster I have come across. And you my(not) friend are really finding yourself in the minority these days on this. you speak as if you are god, as if you have a divine right to say what is good or bad, right or wrong, what is moral or not. Buddy, you are probably a fucking kid, who is being reared by backwards thinking god forbid I should say it but i will the same thread of fiber you were conceived! 

Seems to me you don't get out much, or are on a worldly basic, but probably sheltered and hiding the fact you are morally raped by your own kind. Hell I wonder does inbreed mean anything to you, how about incest. Cause I feel like you would totally find a argument to justify those things!

Maybe your twisted and are warped by harsh realities you cant confront just yet, thats not my problem. BUT from this FAG TO YOU  SUCK SOMEONE ELSE'S PUSSY. Cause you are lost , so last!

[jarmo]

Mainline is somebody who's been banned from here in the past for his/her bullshit stories and narrowminded opinions.





/jarmo

[Skeba]

I'm a bit surprised nobody's posted this yet. From, once again, south park:

Governor: I believe that I might have come up with a compromise to this whole problem that will make everyone happy! People in the gay community want the same rights as married couples, but dissenters don't want the word "marriage" corrupted. So how about we let gay people get married, but call it something else? You homosexuals will have all the exact same rights as married couples, but instead of referring to you as "married," you can be “butt buddies”. Instead of being "man and wife," you'll be “butt buddies”. You won't be "betrothed," you'll be “butt buddies”. Get it? Instead of a "bride and groom," you'd be “butt buddies”.

Mr. Slave: We wanna be treated equally!

Governor: You are equal. It's just that instead of getting "engaged," you would be “butt buddies”.

[jazjme]

I'm a bit surprised nobody's posted this yet. From, once again, south park:

Governor: I believe that I might have come up with a compromise to this whole problem that will make everyone happy! People in the gay community want the same rights as married couples, but dissenters don't want the word "marriage" corrupted. So how about we let gay people get married, but call it something else? You homosexuals will have all the exact same rights as married couples, but instead of referring to you as "married," you can be ?butt buddies?. Instead of being "man and wife," you'll be ?butt buddies?. You won't be "betrothed," you'll be ?butt buddies?. Get it? Instead of a "bride and groom," you'd be ?butt buddies?.

Mr. Slave: We wanna be treated equally!

Governor: You are equal. It's just that instead of getting "engaged," you would be ?butt buddies?.

I think that is hysterical! And so damn true, !

[The Dog]

Funny, I always thoght marriage was about LOVE, not "perpetuating the species".  Sorry dude, but its pretty likely that the love a man and a woman has is just as great as the love two girls or two guys might have for each other.

 

It's about both.  At least it should be....

Also, by your logic single parents are "inferior" b/c they can't offer what the opposite sex can.

Nope.  I mentioned this.  They can adopt and offer what a gay couple can't - being raised by a father and a mother.  (I realize that is meaningless to you.)

perhaps i wasn't clear....you are saying by a mother AND a father...I said SINGLE (that means one) parent.  So if a child is only being raised by either a mother OR a father, are they getting an "inferior" upbringing???

and why do you think "being raised by a father and a mother" is meaningless to me?  Lets try to keep the assumptions to a minimum ok?  You don't sound very intelligent when you make then and you couldn't be more wrong.

and as for marriage SHOULD be about both love and procreation, tell that to all the people who adopt or simply can't (or choose not to) have kids.  So if i get married and don't have kids my marriage is "inferior" to someone else who has kids and is a shitty parent to them??  maybe procreation to YOU is part of marriage, but I can't recall any wedding I've ever been to where they talked about having kids as being part of a good marriage.  it was all about love, respect and happiness.  As far as i'm concerned those attributes are equal opportunity.

Learn how to use the "quote" function, then get back to me. 

Hmm, I think maybe its when you get a clue you'll be able to get back to me.  Mastering the quote function doesn't have much to do with this discussion. 

[Axl4Prez2004]

Mainline said, "Bottom line, the majority of this nation - "under God" - is religious.  Always has been."

You left out the fact that in the Pledge of Allegiance, the "under God" part was added in the 1950's.  As far as I know, our country was born in the 1700's.  And yes, you are correct, the founding fathers were very well aware of what happens when you allow government and religion to act as one.  This is why they designed a separation of church and state.

I used the "fear" quote from Maddy earlier...Mainline, I think the more appropriate snippet from Maddy is, "...hate isn't something you're born with, it gets taught!"  Think about it. 

[Bud Fox]

You are probably the most narrow minded bigoted poster I have come across. And you my(not) friend are really finding yourself in the minority these days on this. you speak as if you are god, as if you have a divine right to say what is good or bad, right or wrong, what is moral or not. Buddy, you are probably a fucking kid, who is being reared by backwards thinking god forbid I should say it but i will the same thread of fiber you were conceived! 

Mainline needs to keep doing what he is doing. We need a personification of the term "right wing moron" on this site, but then again, we have a number of those already.

But one must admit, on a moron scale of 1 to 10, he scores "totally fucking stupid".

[Lisa]

Thank you Mr Fox

[pilferk]

Along with freedom, independence, and liberty, some of us (well most of us) also believe in morality and are religious. I know how much you secularists wish those two words would go away.

I'm going to stay mostly out of the conversation but need to comment on this one bit:

It's not that secularists want morality and religion to go away.  It's that they see no reason why THEY should be held up to someone elses religious beliefs and moral compass.  They prefer to leave those kinds of decisions (gay marriage and adoption, abortion, etc) up to the individual, rather than having them forced on the population.  And leaving them as a personal decision doesn't force those that are religious, or think they go against their personal morality, to engage in any of them.