Somalia: another warfield for the US

[Izzy]

At least these were actual terrorists this time....? I don't care what country they're in.? If they are Al-Queda they need to die.? Simple as that.? Kill them before they kill us.

Wow

Just...wow

We're the good guys right?

Disregarding the obvious point that America's horrendous conduct around the world caused all this and many of these individuals have genuine grievances against America - our objective should be to arrest the guilty and protect the innocent

Killing should be an absolute last resort - not an objective

America is not innocent in all this -? the response of these groups is wrong, but they have plenty of valid reasons for hating America

Wat-ever seem to have beat me to it, i'm in full agreement with him. We're better than these nasty little groups - but unless we behave as we should we lose any moral high ground and any right to pursue these people

[The Dog]

Please tell me how Al-Queda's hate for the US is justified (pre Iraq war)?

Let me clarify that....hate is one thing - tell me how their violence against us is justified??

I agree with some of what your'e saying What-ever - violence alone is not going to solve this.

but if there is a terror camp that is training terrorists for future stikes against the US or US embassies or allies of the "free world" then yeah, they should be killed.

this is a war, is it conventional, no.  but the fact remains in war, people die.  i don't think killing in the name of war is the same as killing for the death penalty.  there is a difference between soldiers killing soldiers and civilians killing civilians.  In WW2 you didn't arrest people, you killed them.  It sucks, but thats war.  Funny everyone complains about America being the World Police, yet you guys use words like "arrest the guilty and protect the innocent" and "against the death penalty"....

Izzy, yes Iraq is the US's fault.  the new terrorists are largely as a result of the US invasion.  however, al-queda existed long before that ever happened.

as shitty as the iraq war has been for pretty much the entire world, lets not forget that before that we had 9-11, the US cole bombing, all the embassy attacks, etc.....   none of those were related to iraq of course, but these groups have been doing damage well before that.  while his rationale was 100% wrong, if 9-11 never occured, we never would have had the excuse to go into Iraq.  (obviously not sayin they are connected, but had 9-11 not happened bush wouldn't have been able to use it as an excuse - i'm probably not saying this as well as I could but...hopefully you understand what i'm getting at).

Turning the other cheek is nice for the movies, but it doesn't work in real life.  AQ wants america to burn from coast to coast.  if you dont' fight back they will have nothing to stop them from doing so.

[Prometheus]

HH call me a kinder and more gentle poster.......but as you said the "evil one" were around long before any of this rap happened... back to what '91 with the first wtc attack... or was there one or 2 earlier i cant remember.. ive had this fight too many times on here and frankly Izzy your making me tired. Now their hatred is not steemed from any one thing but for general overall US expansion.... the "imperialism" that many sees iin the actions of the US.  They hate the West in general... and target the US because it is the leader of the west. that really is the main reason.. the rest now well we see the cluster fuck everyday.


Now Izzy, you have seen my posts on this for ages, they are so much like yours, maintain the Moral high ground and i have believed that for ever. The proble is that it works in the west and the east, but it dont work with the middle east for the most part. What s sen is not our great actions what is seen is them and their followers taking shots at us and wining and us still giving..... and it just makes them stronger, there comes a time when the total power that a sleeping bear can unleash must be shown....., it does go to show some people on the fence that they will die if they take the wrong path...... and attack us..... the problem is bush fucked up big time with Iraq they should have just finished of with the afgan campagin and acheived their objective......

[pilferk]

Above all ethical issues. We don't even know what terrorism is. Where does it start? When does terrorism become the real voice of poor and oppressed?

We absolutely know what terrorism is:  It's the killing of innocents, intentionally, with no regards to a real "military" target.  It's killing them simply to instill terror in your target so they become pliable to your "suggestions". 

It's absolutely 9/11, and London, and Paris.

I get the "Kinder, Gentler" thing....I really do. And I wish, with my whole heart, that it worked every time.  But we're dealing with extremists. Ideological extremists perfectly willing to die, in almost a "throw away" manner, for their cause. Logic, dialogue, diplomacy....all the ways we can noramally resolve conflict just don't work.  They just don't.  All those things do is give the terrorists more reason to continue to kill your citizens...and give birth to MORE terrorists because they see the methodology works.  Their goal is the total destruction of our culture and way of life.  There is no compromising with them.

So, what you have left is 2 choices.  Let them overrun you or fight back.  The only thing that discourages them is destroying them in large numbers, without giving letting that destruction "further their cause".  I suppose you can debate the whole "capture them/kill them" methodology of their destruction, but realize it's a moot point, to a large extent.  When fighting them, they tend to fight until dead, incapacitated, or they get away.    How do you force your preferred methodology on those types of people?  And should you risk your ground forces, needlessly, simply to give those unlikely to surrender a CHANCE to surrender?  How many of OUR people's deaths is that worth?  Because from what we've seen thus far...more of our people die than their people surrender.....

[pilferk]

Wow

Just...wow

We're the good guys right?

Disregarding the obvious point that America's horrendous conduct around the world caused all this and many of these individuals have genuine grievances against America - our objective should be to arrest the guilty and protect the innocent

Killing should be an absolute last resort - not an objective

America is not innocent in all this -  the response of these groups is wrong, but they have plenty of valid reasons for hating America

Wat-ever seem to have beat me to it, i'm in full agreement with him. We're better than these nasty little groups - but unless we behave as we should we lose any moral high ground and any right to pursue these people

There is a right way, and a wrong way, to handle grievances.  Attacking a civilain building, in the middle of a metro area, isn't one of them.  You can blame many things on the US and it's inane handling of Iraq...but justifying terrorists actions, no matter what they are, isn't one of them.

As for thier "valid reasons", I think you need to understand, at the core, exactly what it is they hate about the US.  They're not valid...any more than racism is valid.  It's xenophobia of the highest magnitude that drives them, not simple ideological differences or political disagreements.

Should we behave? Sure.  The torture that occured by US troops was deplorable, and this administration should be ashamed, as should the military hierarchy.  Should killing be "the last resort"?  Sure, it should.  And, IMHO, that's the resort we've been left with.  It's a simple concept, in this case, no matter how complicated people want to make it: kill or be killed.

Unless you can provide some alternative manner to handle those who would rather die than be captured, who would rather die than allow the US to continue to exist, who would rather die than to see the US way of life continue, who consider our very existance an afront to their extremist views.....there aren't many options left.  There's a reason they're called extremists.....

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

So Promo, you're saying their hatred is driven by the imperialism of the west and the US ... and we answer by ... Imperialism.
Hum?

I say we can be reactive: if we are prooves or doubts that a man has been involved in ILLEGAL acts, then we hunt him down and arrest him and JUDGE him > oh man, that's how it was working before !!! crazy!

But we CANNOT take action based on doubts and thoughts; or if we do; we MUST FuCKIN JUDGE the person.

And for God Sake; lets stop being politically correct here; they hate us ? why ? they hate the imperialism?
come on; we need to face it, we are not the fuckin rebels, we are not the alliance, we are not luke skywalker and han solo, we are fuckin darth vader.
I am positive on that, if someone was to portray the story of the world, objectively, the west would be the FUCKIN EVIL PARTY.
face it. anyway -

Terrorism must be clear to some people - even if it has no international definition - i know how some of us do not care about international definitions, but if you want to be accepted in teh world .... -

but more than definition, there is a the main point of : what is source of it ? why does it exists ? can we have terrorism for good reasons ?
can we kill people for good reasons ? can we ? think ... really.

We may analyse al-quaida as deformed, evil, unjustified shape of the rebellion of the middle east - we can take that shortcut - but i personnaly think, that nothing is to be taken alone, everything is connected - and al quaida, terrorism is really the expression, the reaction of what the west has been doing to acfrica and the middle east.

no one is all good. nor all evil.


as disgusting as 9/11, and i might shock someone here, i would think otherwise if i had family in the tower, but i take that chance to talk without emotion - we fuckin deserved it.
not the USA
not Europe.
but the fuickin world, capitalism, greed, money, we had it coming.

but, hey, its kinda stupid to say it, everything happens for a reason.

[TAP]

I say we can be reactive: if we are prooves or doubts that a man has been involved in ILLEGAL acts, then we hunt him down and arrest him and JUDGE him > oh man, that's how it was working before !!! crazy!


as disgusting as 9/11, and i might shock someone here, i would think otherwise if i had family in the tower, but i take that chance to talk without emotion - we fuckin deserved it.

Kind of hard to arrest people who just flew a plane into a building now isn't it.

Every freedom fighter/terrorist movement has two kinds of people, those who are fighting for a cause, or against an aggrievance, or for a better way of life, and those for whom the violence is the whole point. You can see that in the IRA, ETA, and back through history. AQ is most definitely the latter and they need to be very dead as a result.

[Prometheus]

So Promo, you're saying their hatred is driven by the imperialism of the west and the US ... and we answer by ... Imperialism.
Hum?

I say we can be reactive: if we are prooves or doubts that a man has been involved in ILLEGAL acts, then we hunt him down and arrest him and JUDGE him > oh man, that's how it was working before !!! crazy!

But we CANNOT take action based on doubts and thoughts; or if we do; we MUST FuCKIN JUDGE the person.

And for God Sake; lets stop being politically correct here; they hate us ? why ? they hate the imperialism?
come on; we need to face it, we are not the fuckin rebels, we are not the alliance, we are not luke skywalker and han solo, we are fuckin darth vader.
I am positive on that, if someone was to portray the story of the world, objectively, the west would be the FUCKIN EVIL PARTY.
face it. anyway -

Terrorism must be clear to some people - even if it has no international definition - i know how some of us do not care about international definitions, but if you want to be accepted in teh world .... -

but more than definition, there is a the main point of : what is source of it ? why does it exists ? can we have terrorism for good reasons ?
can we kill people for good reasons ? can we ? think ... really.

We may analyse al-quaida as deformed, evil, unjustified shape of the rebellion of the middle east - we can take that shortcut - but i personnaly think, that nothing is to be taken alone, everything is connected - and al quaida, terrorism is really the expression, the reaction of what the west has been doing to acfrica and the middle east.

no one is all good. nor all evil.


as disgusting as 9/11, and i might shock someone here, i would think otherwise if i had family in the tower, but i take that chance to talk without emotion - we fuckin deserved it.
not the USA
not Europe.
but the fuickin world, capitalism, greed, money, we had it coming.

but, hey, its kinda stupid to say it, everything happens for a reason.

see your tring to skew this towards iraq and the actions and fuck ups there....... but im staying with afgan.... get the job done... justify iraq after and if you have the people onside then do it... but not lie to the people to do it...

[The Dog]

as disgusting as 9/11, and i might shock someone here, i would think otherwise if i had family in the tower, but i take that chance to talk without emotion - we fuckin deserved it.
not the USA
not Europe.
but the fuickin world, capitalism, greed, money, we had it coming.

Sorry, but that is one of the dumber rationalizations for 9-11.  You're not the first to say this amazingly.  So capitalism and money are the reasons why its ok to kill innocent people?  The world should should adopt a socialist/communist attitude and we should all live like hippies right?  Give me a break.

Then you say we are Darth Vader, but then no one is good and no one is evil....make up your mind (and in the end Vader saved luke and killed the emperor you dummy! hahaha)

Terorrism is bullshit and you know it.  I wonder if you had asked MLK Jr. or Ghandi what they think of terrorism what they'd say.  Actually, I could probably tell you.  EVEN if the US/West is the evil empire you make it out to be, blowing up buildings isn't the answer. peaceful demonstrations/boycotts/marches - that is what has worked in the past.  MLK and Ghandi have done more for their people then AQ, hezbollah, hamas or any other bullshit terror organization will ever do for theirs.  simple as that.

this whole notion of good/evil being a perspective is bullshit too.  terrorism for "good reasons".  please.  you're justifying something that should never be justified.  to allow it in any case is saying something that is inherently wrong is now right.  To say, terrorism gives a voice to those that don't have one - please, give me a break.   thats just nonsense.  if mlk jr. could do it without CNN, without the internet and the global world we live in today, then nobody has an excuse for not being able to do it now.

if the palestinians had peacefully marched on israel, held rallies, demonstrations, without anybody blowing up or any rocks being thrown or kidnapping any soliders the world would be 100% on their side and 100% sympathetic.  i realize their situation sucks, but its hard to sympathize when you're blowing up a sbarros pizza place.

[Prometheus]

as disgusting as 9/11, and i might shock someone here, i would think otherwise if i had family in the tower, but i take that chance to talk without emotion - we fuckin deserved it.
not the USA
not Europe.
but the fuickin world, capitalism, greed, money, we had it coming.

Sorry, but that is one of the dumber rationalizations for 9-11.? You're not the first to say this amazingly.? So capitalism and money are the reasons why its ok to kill innocent people?? The world should should adopt a socialist/communist attitude and we should all live like hippies right?? Give me a break.

congrats on 2k posts


look we can do the break down on 9-11.... but it will accomplish nothing..... we can actually define the anamonty of a terror plot and no one will bother to discuss it.... me and doc emmit had a go back a few years ago over pms discusssing sucide bombings and their ineffectiveness as a mass destruction of human lives ... (9-11 was excluded) and how one could easily clean up the kill count greatly, simply by doing very minor alterations to the bombing plan. after doing this is when i realised that the poor fuckers who are actually doing this by and large are scared, question their faith and start to see the foly of the plan. Somethign changes their mind and they do it.. almost jumping the gun... what if by some small measure its actually a fail safe that the cell has put in that if the bomb mule decides to jet they can blow em up... they run and boom.....would that be evil in the mind of the cells?.. would that make them the bad guys? would their lack of respect for human life make them evil?


i can stand up and look at the act and the people in a pure and scientiic manner and say yes they need to do it cause they would not surie a convential war... blah blah blah... but does the ends justify the means? no...... does ours? no, and yes because how do u defeat an enemy that does not value the loss of life? but welcomes it and praises it and documents it to be aird to millions of people? how? you destroy everyone of them. the sucide tapes have an intresting effect..... it starts to galvenize the faith of other martyrs against us, and it does the same to us against them.....creating an end game war that no one would win....... me.. i always said if i ruled a country id be genoscidal..... id nuke the mid east till it glowed green. and you know its not becuase im racisit, it because its what i would do to protect my way of life and save as many lives of my brothers as i could. millions of inocent people dead... yup... me in jail yup.... my country spared the cost of a protracted war where my civillians ar the targets, good.... my country hated by every nation on earth yup... anyone going to do anything ? nope cause they ar afraidd we'd nuke em too....

[The Dog]

Prom - i see your point, but izzy and wat-ever are going to have some fun resposnes for your post

dude your avatar is killing me - i'm scared to look at this site at work b/c of the boobs! hahah

2000 posts...wow, who would have thought such a milestone would have been a response to one of what-ever's anti american/west / pro terrorist posts 

[Izzy]

America's meddling has consequences - creating animosity is one of these consequences.

Its from this groups of provoked individuals the lunatic fringe recruits

America has given Al-Quaeda a generation of potential recruits - its responsible for the scale of what it now faces.

That's not the same as saying terrosim is justified - and frankly those that would twist my words to say such things are causing me much puzzlement

A RESPONSE is justified, terrorism is but one possile response and (must i careful spell out?) one clearly i dont regard as appropriate

Its from this desire to respond to many genuine greivances that Al-Queada has found its recruits. They feel as if there is no other platform to respond with.

America caused the desire to response - and this in turn fueled terrorism

Is my point clear enough?

America started the ball rolling - it is responsible for this.

A poster asked me - how would i deal with these extremists?

Well - i'd look at causes, i'd go beyond propoganda and see a shameful support for Israel - meddling in other nations affairs and maintaining status quos, i'd look at a beligerant posture that only causes alienation and i'd see a stubborn refusal to actually TALK with political groups in the middle east

A new crusade in the middle eats is NOT the only option we have. Disowning Israeli aggression - talking with Iran and Hamas and ending interference in other nations affairs will pull the rug from the extremists.

Without a cause to rally behind this extremism will ebb away - the fuel for its fire will be extinquished.

Adopting a new less confrontational approach to the middle east, one that listens and engages in dialogue and stops trying to play power-broker: that will lead to peace in a way no gunship or armoured brigade ever will

Give peace a chance, we exist in a paradoxical situation in which our attempts to crush terrorism actually cause it.

I dont defend terrorism, but i can understand what causes it - and thats the ONLY way it can be beaten.

If people wish to attack my position then fine, but dont attempt to portray me as having any sympathy for extremists

i dont condone violence under any circumstance




? ?

[The Dog]

Izzy, first off i wasn't saying you condone terrorism - sorry if it came out that way.

but for the purpose of this discussion, disregard Iraq from the equation.  As we've said before, 9-11, the embassy bombings, the US COLE all happened way before Iraq.  What was the US doing back then to give Al queda a generation of recruits?

its been american policy for quite some time to not deal with terrorists.  i think we should stand by that.  when you negotiate with them you are acknowledging the response, you justify their response for them.  I hear you guys all the time say "violence is not the answer!"  well, yeah, that works both ways though.

like i said before, MLK Jr. and Ghandi didn't use violence, and their voices were heard.  Women in the US did the same when they sought equal rights.

I think two things can be done to solve middle east terrorism.

fix the israeli/palestine problem asap (but is it fixable?? will hamas stop until israel is all theirs or its destroyed? i don't know)

the economy - the unemployment rate in iraq is insane.  give the people jobs, a home, clothes, food, material things and they will think twice before blowing themselvs up.  right now they have nothing to lose - give them something to lose and you won't have an endless number of people to recruit.  same goes for palestine.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

1st i am not anti american / anti west / pro terrorist
thanks
that's what a guy like nesquick would say.

cause in the end. i am the one dating an american. i am the one listening to GNR. so i'm kinda sure i'm way more open minded towards americans, than some of our yankees to the middle east culture. any whoo.

from there, it was not about " the us not dealing with terrorists " - it's about the west imperialism.
i know this is only one parameter in the equation.
but the way we act play in our dis-favor all around the world ....

im hungry now

PEACE OUT

[Axl4Prez2004]

Prom - i see your point, but izzy and wat-ever are going to have some fun resposnes for your post

dude your avatar is killing me - i'm scared to look at this site at work b/c of the boobs! hahah

2000 posts...wow, who would have thought such a milestone would have been a response to one of what-ever's anti american/west / pro terrorist posts?

Dammit HannaHat!  Every single damn post you've made in this thread has been dead-on!  Until this one!  How dare you attempt to have Prometheus change his avatar!  In fact, I am making the rule right now that only Prometheus is allowed to post in this thread.   

Back on topic.  Afghanistan was absolutely necessary in the war on terror.  Each and every member of Al-Qaeda must be hunted down and destroyed.  This is a war dammit.  Still think I'm a weak little liberal?     Al_Qaeda attacked the US on 9-11-01.  Not, I repeat not Iraq.   

Izzy said, "America started the ball rolling - it is responsible for this."  I strongly disagree with you.  Yes, America is no angel...but to have 9-11 happen and say we started the war is pretty disgraceful.  What type of imperialism was threatening the Middle East?  Was it our desire to stick McDonalds into downtown Mecca?  Come on!  If our corporations threaten other cultures, other cultures can decide to either a:  not eat there and cause them to go broke, or b:  decide as communities to restrict corporations from setting up shop!  I don't see our armies forcefully taking business grounds and setting up Dunkin Donuts overseas.  If the public desires a product, and a corporation can make a buck, bam, there it is.
Was it the presence of our military in Saudi Arabia?  Cut to the chase, are we getting hit by Al-Qaeda because of our support for Israel?  You bet.  Will it change?  Hell no.  Will Israel turn over Israel to Palestinians?  Hell no.  Just deal with it.   

[GeorgeSteele]

I'm not convinced that the bombing of towns that result in the deaths of innocents (including that of a 4-yr old child in this week's bombing of Afmadow) will make me and my family safer. ?Not saying we should just sing Kumbaya, but we can't ignore the necessity to maintain the moral high ground.

The way I see it, Osama Bin Laden has already baited George Bush into the destruction of 2 Islamic countries. ?Looks like a 3rd one could be next. ?Bin Laden is many things, but he's not an idiot. ?He's knows that a terrorist act or series of them isn't ever going to eradicate Western civilization as we know it. ?His only hope is for an over-the-top, perceived anti-Islamic, US military campaign that would feed not just Islamic but worldwide hatred and resentment of America and ultimately lead to an unsustainable financial burden to maintain that military effort (much like how the US aimed to bankrupt the Soviet Union with the nuclear arms race).

[The Dog]

Prom - i see your point, but izzy and wat-ever are going to have some fun resposnes for your post

dude your avatar is killing me - i'm scared to look at this site at work b/c of the boobs! hahah

2000 posts...wow, who would have thought such a milestone would have been a response to one of what-ever's anti american/west / pro terrorist posts 

What type of imperialism was threatening the Middle East? 

Good question, and one i have already asked a couple of times in this thread.  Still waiting for an answer.....

Cut to the chase, are we getting hit by Al-Qaeda because of our support for Israel?  You bet.  Will it change?  Hell no.  Will Israel turn over Israel to Palestinians?  Hell no.  Just deal with it.   

Bingo. 

[The Dog]

He's knows that a terrorist act or series of them isn't ever going to eradicate Western civilization as we know it.  His only hope is for an over-the-top, perceived anti-Islamic, US military campaign that would feed not just Islamic but worldwide hatred and resentment of America and ultimately lead to an unsustainable financial burden to maintain that military effort (much like how the US aimed to bankrupt the Soviet Union with the nuclear arms race).

Hmm, I don't know.  They fucked up the soviets pretty bad and helped collaspe the USSR.  And in todays world, everybody is going to own nukes soon, so one in LA and one in NYC would damage alot more then just our finances.  Will they completely eradicate our way of life? of course not, but they might knock us down a notch or two and let someone else (china?) step up to be the worlds next super power.  Communism will win in the end after all! 

[The Dog]

1st i am not anti american / anti west / pro terrorist
thanks
that's what a guy like nesquick would say.

cause in the end. i am the one dating an american.

"Some of my best friends are American!"

    just kidding


But you do hate the Jews.  You haven't denied that in the past thats for sure.

[Axl4Prez2004]

^^^Interesting.  Could this be the veil of anti-semitism slowly being pulled away?

Honestly, we're talking Somalia here!  How in the world could we not be able to come up with the money to pay off some locals ( a couple thousand dollars would be like millions to a Somali) to bring us the heads or locations of the heads we seek?  Generally, they are the ones speaking Arabic, come from other countries, and are setting up shop in the next town over looking like Velvet Revolver....(plenty of guns, but no roses.)