Iran seizes 15 British Navy Personnel

[COMAMOTIVE]

What greatly angers me about this isnt what Iran did - its the cowardly surrender of the British forces

They were there to defend Iraqi territory and in the face of an invading force they gave up when they had 2 carrier groups in support

I hope they are court martialled upon release and thrown out of the army - they were there to fight and they cant even defend themselves!

They are utterly worthless to the Iraqi people they are there to protect

Aren't you being a little hard on them?  You don't know exactly what happened out there. Don't assume that the Iranians approached them with a big flag sporting Iranian symbols and colors .  They could have been real friendly at first , then sent hundreds of armed ment aboard a vessel with only 15 to defend it.

[mrlee]

iran doesnt have a proper army, its just got terrorists.

Have you ever read a book? Just curious.

and half built nukes. we should wipe them out with some well place strategic missles.

Yeah, let's start a nuclear war over 15 servicemen who aren't dead or even injured.

dicks. not nukes. just like those tomahawk things, ones which can do some serious blowing up.

[The Dog]

What greatly angers me about this isnt what Iran did - its the cowardly surrender of the British forces

They were there to defend Iraqi territory and in the face of an invading force they gave up when they had 2 carrier groups in support

I hope they are court martialled upon release and thrown out of the army - they were there to fight and they cant even defend themselves!

They are utterly worthless to the Iraqi people they are there to protect

Aren't you being a little hard on them?  You don't know exactly what happened out there. Don't assume that the Iranians approached them with a big flag sporting Iranian symbols and colors .  They could have been real friendly at first , then sent hundreds of armed ment aboard a vessel with only 15 to defend it.

agreed - and fighting back could have escalated things in a heart beat.  they did the right thing by standing down and trying to resolve things diplomatically.  To me, whats ridiculous is how long its taking to get them home.

[The Dog]

what scares me the most is that my generation, and little bit older, have no sense of what a world war means, and they are so deeply engaged in fantasy war movies and video games, that they don't really understand the impact of "taking a military action".

it's very scary.

Eh, speak for yourself.  I think in the information age we live in we are seeing the ugly side of war.  We see the youtube videos of sadamm being hung, the videos of people being beheaded, of IEDs exploding, of marines getting sniped....its not glamorized at all - its real uncut, raw footage.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

what scares me the most is that my generation, and little bit older, have no sense of what a world war means, and they are so deeply engaged in fantasy war movies and video games, that they don't really understand the impact of "taking a military action".

it's very scary.

Eh, speak for yourself.  I think in the information age we live in we are seeing the ugly side of war.  We see the youtube videos of sadamm being hung, the videos of people being beheaded, of IEDs exploding, of marines getting sniped....its not glamorized at all - its real uncut, raw footage.

How much have we had to give up for being at war? Not much at all. Wars of decades past were much harder on the general population- food rationing, lesser availability of certain items was common- they even made pennies out of steel since they need the copper for bullets. Also, no person is forced to fight , there has not been a draft since Vietnam. We may not like the politics of war, but unless you are someone who has directly been affected by a loss or injury of someone you know or care about, we haven't suffered much compared to the WW2 generation or older baby boomers.

[The Dog]

what scares me the most is that my generation, and little bit older, have no sense of what a world war means, and they are so deeply engaged in fantasy war movies and video games, that they don't really understand the impact of "taking a military action".

it's very scary.

Eh, speak for yourself.  I think in the information age we live in we are seeing the ugly side of war.  We see the youtube videos of sadamm being hung, the videos of people being beheaded, of IEDs exploding, of marines getting sniped....its not glamorized at all - its real uncut, raw footage.

How much have we had to give up for being at war? Not much at all. Wars of decades past were much harder on the general population- food rationing, lesser availability of certain items was common- they even made pennies out of steel since they need the copper for bullets. Also, no person is forced to fight , there has not been a draft since Vietnam. We may not like the politics of war, but unless you are someone who has directly been affected by a loss or injury of someone you know or care about, we haven't suffered much compared to the WW2 generation or older baby boomers.

I agree with you GnRFL, but wat-ever was talking about war depicted in movies and video games.  Not many video games focus on food rationing or making pennies out of steel you know?      He was referring to the horror of war, the death, the destruction that is romanticized in movies and played in video games.  During most of WW2 dead bodies weren't even showed on film.  Compare that to vietnam where the news brought it into americans living room.  now compare it to the internet age - the horrors of war are a click and a download away.  even most of the recent war movies don't glamorize war but show how awful and terrible it can be, private ryan, black hawk down, we were soldiers....

sure there are some jack-offs out there who want to "kill em all" at the drop of a hat, but to think that our generation hasn't been exposed to the realities of war is wrong.

[freedom78]

I'm curious...does anyone know if the female sailor taken captive is a Muslim?  Because, if not, I think it odd that they forced her to wear a headscarf.



If Western states forced foreign religious garb on Islamic captives, they'd shit.   

[Genesis]

I'm curious...does anyone know if the female sailor taken captive is a Muslim?  Because, if not, I think it odd that they forced her to wear a headscarf.

I don't think she's Muslim. They don't allow women to appear on TV without a headscarf, so yeah she was probably asked to wear one.

[freedom78]

I'm curious...does anyone know if the female sailor taken captive is a Muslim?  Because, if not, I think it odd that they forced her to wear a headscarf.

I don't think she's Muslim. They don't allow women to appear on TV without a headscarf, so yeah she was probably asked to wear one.

Yeah.  Asked.  The same way prisoners are "asked" to wear orange and to undergo cavity searches. 

If she's not Muslim, she should have "asked" them to go fuck themselves.

[Genesis]

If she's not Muslim, she should have "asked" them to go fuck themselves.

Not when she's "asked" by a bunch of gun carrying Iranian ninnies. 

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Iran is trying to blackmail the British by using their captured troops as a bargaining chip. How wrong is that? We were actually getting to a point where the US was starting to open some kind of dialogue with Iran regarding Iraq. I think it is obvious Iran can not be trusted, this confirms it. Iran has no interest in stability in the region or a stable democracy in Iraq ( which would not be a threat  to them). Iran is power hungry and wants to dominate the region. One of the biggest losers are the Iranian people, they have to live under that government.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

As much as i disagree with their actions.

I am sick of hearing the west blaming their "enemies" anytime they do something wrong to us. This is so hypocrite.
We've been wrong doers for decades, and we expect our "enemies" to behave like angels.

Stability and peace, cannot be reached until there is a balanced equilibrium in a situation.

My point is you cannot ask some kid not to try to bite your arm while you're punching him the face.

Iran has very much interests in stability in Iraq. But not interest in having the west all tangled up in there. This will only lead to corrupt leaders who will please the west with one hand (security/anti-terrorist fights) and please chosen elites with the other (money, cash). This will not work.
Take Yemen for example, a stunning case of duplicity and hypocrisy. A political mess stuck between American orders (security) and Radicals society (its people like to hear about anti-usa ramble and anti-isreal policies)


The west need radically change the way they are involved over there. The new Human Rights Counsel at the UN is the way to go, stability to the people,  by the people.

Again, i hope these 15 soldiers will be released.
But then again, who is in guantanamo?

[The Dog]

As much as i disagree with their actions.

I am sick of hearing the west blaming their "enemies" anytime they do something wrong to us. This is so hypocrite.
We've been wrong doers for decades, and we expect our "enemies" to behave like angels.

Stability and peace, cannot be reached until there is a balanced equilibrium in a situation.

My point is you cannot ask some kid not to try to bite your arm while you're punching him the face.

Iran has very much interests in stability in Iraq. But not interest in having the west all tangled up in there. This will only lead to corrupt leaders who will please the west with one hand (security/anti-terrorist fights) and please chosen elites with the other (money, cash). This will not work.
Take Yemen for example, a stunning case of duplicity and hypocrisy. A political mess stuck between American orders (security) and Radicals society (its people like to hear about anti-usa ramble and anti-isreal policies)


The west need radically change the way they are involved over there. The new Human Rights Counsel at the UN is the way to go, stability to the people,  by the people.

Again, i hope these 15 soldiers will be released.
But then again, who is in guantanamo?

you make some great points, especially about guantanamo.

but lets be honest here, Iran aren't 100% innocent.  they've been sponsoring hezbollah for years now, a known world terrorist group.  they are definitely taking advantage of the clusterfuck that is Iraq and are trying to seize more power in the region.  The US under the Bush Regime is just as guilty of trying to seize power but two wrongs don't make a right.

their current actions are doing nothing more than to stir up more trouble - nothing good can come of this.  those troops should have been released by now.  Iran is simply flexing her muscles while pissing off the rest of the world (minus china and russia who will be Iran's allies in WW3).

as for western influence in the Mid East - we need to finally resolve the israeli/palestine conflict, find alternate fule sources and get the fuck outta there.

[COMAMOTIVE]

My point is you cannot ask some kid not to try to bite your arm while you're punching him the face.



/quote]


And you keep acting like Iran is some kind of victim in the world, independent of their own actions, don't be crying " Why did'nt someone do something about them"
when they cause some real damage.

[freedom78]

As much as i disagree with their actions.

I am sick of hearing the west blaming their "enemies" anytime they do something wrong to us. This is so hypocrite.
We've been wrong doers for decades, and we expect our "enemies" to behave like angels.

Stability and peace, cannot be reached until there is a balanced equilibrium in a situation.

My point is you cannot ask some kid not to try to bite your arm while you're punching him the face.

Iran has very much interests in stability in Iraq. But not interest in having the west all tangled up in there. This will only lead to corrupt leaders who will please the west with one hand (security/anti-terrorist fights) and please chosen elites with the other (money, cash). This will not work.
Take Yemen for example, a stunning case of duplicity and hypocrisy. A political mess stuck between American orders (security) and Radicals society (its people like to hear about anti-usa ramble and anti-isreal policies)


The west need radically change the way they are involved over there. The new Human Rights Counsel at the UN is the way to go, stability to the people,  by the people.

Again, i hope these 15 soldiers will be released.
But then again, who is in guantanamo?

I agree with you to a large extent.  God knows that the US government is largely culpable for the way it's perceived around the world (especially in Latin America). 

Personally, I've never understood many of our foreign policies.  For example, the way to make China a more responsible state is to engage them, bring them into the world market, etc.  But the way to make Iran or Cuba more responsible is to ignore them as best we can?  We spend far too long licking our wounds over past mistakes (such as those with Iran and Cuba), when engaging them would be far more beneficial. 

That said, as bad as the US has been over the last 60 years, in terms of harmful foreign policies, there is a difference. 

When innocent Iranian (or Palestinian, Arab, or Muslim) civilians are killed, I do NOT charge into the street to fire my gun in the air in celebration while shouting "God is great.  Death to Islam."

When the Iranian government makes outrageous statements about the non-existence of the Holocaust, Western Jews (and others with at least half a brain) do not run to their local Persian rug store and burn it down.

That any American supports Palestinian independence is a miracle, when some of the first images from the Middle-East, on 9/11, were of Palestinians dancing in the streets and passing out free candy.

I take no joy when any of them die.  They relish such moments.  That's the difference. 

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Well i see your point.

But (yes there is a but ... )

these rejoyced blood-thirsty arabs you see on tv ARE your typical trailer park trash that hangs around with an american flag everywhere, not able to point out where australia is, and say things like "lets? nuke ragheads".

That's the case.
YOU are smart. YOU are not on Al-Jazeera TV because you dont matter.
Intelligent pacifist from Palestine are not on CNN (or fox). Because CNN wants you to think that all palestinian want to kill israeli and americans.
That all iranians want to kill you and make you believed in their god and make your wives wear the burka.

But NO. they just want to live on their own. Have water. Not to go through 45 checkpoints in their OWN land, not to see a WALL built in the desert.

1st step will be to discard the people who cannot reason (bush, Ahmadinejad, fox news, extremists)
When the smart and reasonable people will be the ONES talking, then we can achieve something.

Unfortunalty, the bad ones are in power. As long as Condoleeza Rice is in the game, we're stuck.
The people who can talk and think, are left out of the game.

Butters > 100% with you. Iran is nowhere to be an angel. israeli/palestine conflict is indeed key.

COMAMOTIVE > never said Iran is a victim. everybody is a victim. and don't be crying when you pay 45$ for gas, then you'll see the real impact of world war.

[freedom78]

Well i see your point.

But (yes there is a but ... )

these rejoyced blood-thirsty arabs you see on tv ARE your typical trailer park trash that hangs around with an american flag everywhere, not able to point out where australia is, and say things like "lets  nuke ragheads".

That's the case.
YOU are smart. YOU are not on Al-Jazeera TV because you dont matter.
Intelligent pacifist from Palestine are not on CNN (or fox). Because CNN wants you to think that all palestinian want to kill israeli and americans.
That all iranians want to kill you and make you believed in their god and make your wives wear the burka.

But NO. they just want to live on their own. Have water. Not to go through 45 checkpoints in their OWN land, not to see a WALL built in the desert.

1st step will be to discard the people who cannot reason (bush, Ahmadinejad, fox news, extremists)
When the smart and reasonable people will be the ONES talking, then we can achieve something.

Unfortunalty, the bad ones are in power. As long as Condoleeza Rice is in the game, we're stuck.
The people who can talk and think, are left out of the game.

I certainly don't believe this of all Iranians (or Arabs or Muslims, for that matter).  But when you see people weeping over thousands of dead, one moment, and then see a jubilant crowd of Palestinians take to the streets to celebrate, it's an image that sticks with you.

Either way, you can't get anywhere by ignoring those with whom you disagree.   

Also, I disagree that resolving Israel-Palestine is a magic bullet to fixing the Middle-East.

We still face the basic problem that we can support oppressive regimes or, if we don't support them, risk their overthrow and replacement by more extremist elements.  Again, I echo the sentiment that getting off oil will be wonderful. 

[Izzy]

What greatly angers me about this isnt what Iran did - its the cowardly surrender of the British forces

They were there to defend Iraqi territory and in the face of an invading force they gave up when they had 2 carrier groups in support

I hope they are court martialled upon release and thrown out of the army - they were there to fight and they cant even defend themselves!

They are utterly worthless to the Iraqi people they are there to protect

Aren't you being a little hard on them?? You don't know exactly what happened out there. Don't assume that the Iranians approached them with a big flag sporting Iranian symbols and colors .? They could have been real friendly at first , then sent hundreds of armed ment aboard a vessel with only 15 to defend it.

agreed - and fighting back could have escalated things in a heart beat.? they did the right thing by standing down and trying to resolve things diplomatically.? To me, whats ridiculous is how long its taking to get them home.

...so if an Iranian brigade turns up in Baghdad it would be better for allied forces there to surrender and 'try to resolve things diplomatically'?

They were there to defend the area from enemies, enemies which included Iran

According to the reports they were ambushed as they climbed back aboard their boat with no chance to react

IDIOTS - thats what a LOOK OUT is for

They werent selling cookies, they were involved in a military operation and they dont think to have someone watching for trouble??

[The Dog]

What greatly angers me about this isnt what Iran did - its the cowardly surrender of the British forces

They were there to defend Iraqi territory and in the face of an invading force they gave up when they had 2 carrier groups in support

I hope they are court martialled upon release and thrown out of the army - they were there to fight and they cant even defend themselves!

They are utterly worthless to the Iraqi people they are there to protect

Aren't you being a little hard on them?  You don't know exactly what happened out there. Don't assume that the Iranians approached them with a big flag sporting Iranian symbols and colors .  They could have been real friendly at first , then sent hundreds of armed ment aboard a vessel with only 15 to defend it.

agreed - and fighting back could have escalated things in a heart beat.  they did the right thing by standing down and trying to resolve things diplomatically.  To me, whats ridiculous is how long its taking to get them home.

...so if an Iranian brigade turns up in Baghdad it would be better for allied forces there to surrender and 'try to resolve things diplomatically'?

A brigade vs. 15 marines....yeah, i'd hope they surrender.  better to live then to die for no reason (kinda like the entire war).

[Prometheus]

I'm curious...does anyone know if the female sailor taken captive is a Muslim?? Because, if not, I think it odd that they forced her to wear a headscarf.



If Western states forced foreign religious garb on Islamic captives, they'd shit.? ?

From what I have been told by serving members and have read b4, standing orders for female personel in arab contries "off duty and outside the wire" is that they must respect teh customs of the local population. If that means they are to wear a head scarf then they wear a head scarf. In saudi if you are off duty and in the presence on local nationals you must be in full military dress, or be in (cant remember teh name) full body robe and vail to cover yourself completely. Now this may ahve changed in the recent times. Now with her appearing on TV.... she would be dressed "properly" in female muslim attire, and there would be no beaf about it as there are guns.... and well it would not be very high horse of us if we did flip