2011 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Falcon]

No denying the numbers, impressive for sure.

But..

Do you really think the Yankees would honor an admitted cheat/rat with number retirement and monument park induction?

From the outside looking in, I just don't see it - way too much negative baggage to be held in that high of regard and it's only going to be amplified
as he goes Sammy the Bull on Clemens and God knows who else.

 

[faldor]

Did you guys catch the Damon/Manny press conference the other day?  Classic stuff.  Makes me miss the days of them roaming the Red Sox outfield.  Best line is when Johnny mentions how they probably wouldn't be able to play all 162 games and Manny suggests that Johnny plays 100 games, and he'll play 62.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYlOeTzriFE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wljhHA3JyM

[AxlsMainMan]

Did you guys catch the Damon/Manny press conference the other day?  Classic stuff.  Makes me miss the days of them roaming the Red Sox outfield.  Best line is when Johnny mentions how they probably wouldn't be able to play all 162 games and Manny suggests that Johnny plays 100 games, and he'll play 62.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYlOeTzriFE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wljhHA3JyM

Me

Interesting stats I found:

First off, over the last five years, the Rays' designated hitters have failed to hit better than .246. Manny will be able to blow that number out of the water since he owns a career .313 mark and has batted at least .290 in 16-straight seasons (tied for the 4th longest streak in baseball history - Ty Cobb went for 20 in a row from 1906-25). To be fair Manny has hit in the .290's in three of the past four years and four of the past six years so it's not like he has been a regular visitor to the .300 ranks, but there has been no downside as well, and there's value in that.

Second, Manny can still get on base. Since becoming a full-time player in 1995, Manny has never produced an OBP lower than .377, and in each of the past three years his OBP has been north of .400. Amongst players with at least 300 plate appearances in each of the past three seasons only three men are in that group: Manny, Joe Mauer and Albert Pujols.

Third, Manny's walk and strikeout mark last season were nearly identical to his career numbers.

2010: 14.4% BB-rate, 23.0% K-rate

career: 13.6% BB-rate, 22.0% K-rate

Fourth, Manny's line drive rate was unchanged last season. Though it was a 3-year low it was still a strong 22.7 percent, an exact match for his career rate.

http://www.rototimes.com/article/2011/2/Breaking-Down-Manny-Ramirez

[faldor]

Manny needs to stay healthy though.  That's the big thing with him.  He had a down year last year, mostly due to missed time.  But even when he was playing he didn't look like vintage Manny to me.  I think he can return to form.  It wasn't that long ago that he was tearing the cover off the ball.  But he needs to stay on the field to do that.  Maybe the switch to DH will help cut down on the injuries.

[AxlsMainMan]

Manny needs to stay healthy though.  That's the big thing with him.  He had a down year last year, mostly due to missed time.  But even when he was playing he didn't look like vintage Manny to me.  I think he can return to form.  It wasn't that long ago that he was tearing the cover off the ball.  But he needs to stay on the field to do that.  Maybe the switch to DH will help cut down on the injuries.

He was playing through injuries even when he was playing, but I definately agree with your general point. Personally, I'm still heartbroken my Jays didn't fork over the measly 2 million he wanted.

I have a friend whose Dad works for Ticketmaster though, so hopefully I'll be behind homeplate for at least one of his visits to Toronto this year

[tim_m]

No denying the numbers, impressive for sure.

But..

Do you really think the Yankees would honor an admitted cheat/rat with number retirement and monument park induction?

From the outside looking in, I just don't see it - way too much negative baggage to be held in that high of regard and it's only going to be amplified
as he goes Sammy the Bull on Clemens and God knows who else.



 

He's a beloved yankee like Mattingly, Williams, O'Neill, Jeter and Mo. The fans have forgiven his mistake. The fans would throw a shit fit if the yankees don't do it.

[Falcon]

He's a beloved yankee like Mattingly, Williams, O'Neill, Jeter and Mo. The fans have forgiven his mistake. The fans would throw a shit fit if the yankees don't do it.

Wow, I had no idea he held in that kind of regard.

Do you think that perception will hold true with what's bound to be a very
incriminating testimonial in the Clemens case?

That kind of organizational dirty laundry played out in public fashion can't be
a good thing.

[tim_m]

Yes, i think it will. I guess only time will tell for sure but yankee fans don't forget what you've done for them. There is no denying Andy was a huge part in 5 championships.

[pilferk]

Wow, I had no idea he held in that kind of regard.

Do you think that perception will hold true with what's bound to be a very
incriminating testimonial in the Clemens case?

That kind of organizational dirty laundry played out in public fashion can't be
a good thing.

I think you'll find many (if not most) Yanks fans have "taken Andy's side" in this.

[tim_m]

Wow, I had no idea he held in that kind of regard.

Do you think that perception will hold true with what's bound to be a very
incriminating testimonial in the Clemens case?

That kind of organizational dirty laundry played out in public fashion can't be
a good thing.

I think you'll find many (if not most) Yanks fans have "taken Andy's side" in this.

I agree Pilfrek, therefore the numbers will be retired and he will go in monument park.

[GeorgeSteele]

Wow, I had no idea he held in that kind of regard.

Do you think that perception will hold true with what's bound to be a very
incriminating testimonial in the Clemens case?

That kind of organizational dirty laundry played out in public fashion can't be
a good thing.

I think you'll find many (if not most) Yanks fans have "taken Andy's side" in this.

I agree Pilfrek, therefore the numbers will be retired and he will go in monument park.

Ignoring the off-the-field stuff, his career stats as a Yankee would definitely justify his number being retired.  Thing is, as much as he's probably the signature Yankee pitcher associated with their last 15 years, I don't think he's ever been their best pitcher during any of those years.  So it's seems kind of odd to honor him as one of the best Yankees of all-time when he was never their best pitcher when he played.  But I'd still agree with them retiring his number because, in a way, that's a testament to how incredibly consistent he was.  Year in, year out, he was a very good pitcher that they could always depend on. 

[tim_m]

He was always a guy you could count on in a big situation. If you needed a win to stop a losing streak or get back in a series 9 times out of 10 you could count on Andy to get that win.

[GeorgeSteele]

^ I realize he's always labeled as "clutch" but the reality is that his regular season and postseason winning % and ERA are almost identical.  Difference with him was that he wasn't lights-out complete game shutout one night and then 3-inning stink-bomb the next.  He was just about always good for 6-7 solid innings. 

[Falcon]

I think you'll find many (if not most) Yanks fans have "taken Andy's side" in this.

Fans nonwithstanding, how about the organization?

Do you think they will bestow honors like number retirement/monument park status on a confessed baseball felon and a guy who sold his best friend down the river?

Andy seems like a decent guy who's made mistakes but damn, it's kinda hard to hold a guy with that kind of reverance who has that kind of rap sheet.

[pilferk]

Fans nonwithstanding, how about the organization?

Do you think they will bestow honors like number retirement/monument park status on a confessed baseball felon and a guy who sold his best friend down the river?

Andy seems like a decent guy who's made mistakes but damn, it's kinda hard to hold a guy with that kind of reverance who has that kind of rap sheet.

From the quotes that have come out of the FO (both attributed and anonymous) I'd say: Same for the organization.

The alternate way to look at things is: He's a guy who made a couple of small mistakes (made basically to be able to "be there for the team"), who admitted them, and has done everything "right" to try to atone for it.  Since his admission, he's been completely honest about it, and about anything related to it (even when it's cost him a friendship).  More so than any "user" who's been caught, maybe.

That seems to be the bent the FO has taken.  Clemens has sort of been painted as a pariah, on the other hand, when you can get anyone in the organization to talk about him at all.

I'd say Andy's chances of getting his number retired by the Yanks are pretty good....because it's what the fans and organization will be OK with.   His chances of getting into the HOF are markedly less, IMHO, because the writers won't be nearly as forgiving.

[tim_m]

You have to consider what he did for the yankees. What a huge part he was in winning 5 titles. His mistakes came in between those 5 titles so the fans believe when he won them he was clean. I think that helps a lot too. Without him we don't win a few of those titles. 1996 coems to mind. Pitching 8 1/3 inning of shutout baseball in Atlanta against Smoltz comes to mind. That game was classic. If we lose that game i'm not sure we in that series. Then in 2009 he closes out every series we won.

[Falcon]

Maybe number retirement is indeed a realistic/deserved reward for being a great Yankee and exclusion from HOF consideration being the realistic/deserved penalty for his indescretions.



 

[faldor]

Quick fantasy baseball question.  In my keeper league I've had Hanley Ramirez as my main keeper the last 3 years.  Last year I drafted Miguel Cabrera and he outperformed HanRam statistically.  Is that enough to make a switch or do I stick with Hanley?

[D]

stick with Hanley

There are 10plus fantastic first basemen not many shortstops.

U got:
Pujols im sure will be kept
Cabrera
Votto
Adrian Gonzalez in Boston will be even more of a monster
Texeira
Howard
Youklis
Fielder
Morneau if healthy
Dunn


at shortstop u got Ramirez, Tulowitzki,Jose Reyes if healthy but after that............ not much

[faldor]

Yeah, that's the way I'm leaning.  Either way, whichever guy I choose not to keep will get snatched up real early in the draft, if not first.  I just wish Hanley would get his head on straight once and for all like Miguel seemed to last season.  His numbers, and play, would be that much better if he dedicated himself 100%.